What is considered marginal for elk?

[Jevyod]

Like the title says, what is considered marginal for elk? The reason I ask, is I think most people say the minimum is 27 caliber. I have a nice m77 chambered in 260 Remington that I absolutely love! I was thinking with a good 140 grain bullet, say something like Barnes Triple Shock, it would be plenty for elk out to 350 yards. What say ye? I also have a 35 Remington, but that would be seriously limited by range.

[Dan Cash]

.25-06 with 120gr Nosler is NOT marginal. Can't speak to your cartridges but the heavier bullets should work. 350 yards is a long poke on something you want to lay down dead right there.

[starmac]

Elk is one of the tougher critters to put down, I am not a fan of smaller calibers on them, but then I don't shoot 350 yards at any animal either. I have known guys that used a 270 all their life though and were very successful.

[Clay M]

I have never shot or killed elk so I don't know.If I had a chance to hunt them I would use a 300 win mag or .338 win mag.
O'Conner had good luck with the .270 win. Long range shooting is a skill that is developed. Practice , knowing you gun the drop of the bullet and what it is capable of. If I err I like it to be on the side of having too much power, but I am not recoil sensitive.

[W.R.Buchanan]

In Sweden,, the most popular caliber for shooting Elk is the 6.5x55 which uses the same bullets as your .260 Rem which is a different way of saying 6.5-08.

Only in Sweden an Elk is actually a Moose.

I would however recommend understanding shot placement, and Berger Bullets.

I had a good chat with Walt Berger purveyor of Berger Bullets (one of them that knows) about this very subject. The slight differences in his hunt and game as opposed to your proposed hunt was that he was in New Zealand and shot a Red Stag with a .257 something.

He used one of his VLD bullets and the stag was DRT. The autopsy revealed that the bullet had penetrated the animal about 6" and then blew up completely expending it's energy on the unsuspecting Stag. The bullet had completely destroyed the heart and bottom half of the lungs resulting in immediate death. There were several other animals dispatched on that trip and the results were exactly the same on every one form Red Stag to Tsar, and a variety of goat like creatures, and feral sheep.

Something to ponder when looking at how to load this cartridge. There are suitable 140 gr bullets from many sources. Do your home work and talk to factories and they will steer you strait.

Randy

[fouronesix]

The 260 will do it but it is marginal. Heck, you can shoot them in the ribs just behind the shoulder with a 243 and if you get enough penetration and if into the chest cavity it will do OK. The problem being the if, if and ifs of all that!

The 140 would be the better choice as would be a quality penetrating bullet like the 130 gr TSX, one of the bonded bullets or one of the "mechanicals" like the Partition or A Frame. Accuracy and shooting at reasonable range are also both of top priority. One thing about the heavy (long) bullets in the 260 and especially the Barnes, is that a lot of bullet base will be seated into the case body. I'd shy way away from the so-called Berger "hunting" bullets.

[BD]

Elk are not that hard to kill, but they can be pretty hard to put down "right there", and they tend to hang around places that lead to a full day of packing out if they make it over the edge, or down the hill, before expiring. I'm a big believer in delivering a lot of energy to the lungs in situations where 500 vertical feet can be lost in seconds. I use a .270, but it's a Wby.
BD

[Clay M]

Elk are not that hard to kill, but they can be pretty hard to put down "right there", and they tend to hang around places that lead to a full day of packing out if they make it over the edge, or down the hill, before expiring. I'm a big believer in delivering a lot of energy to the lungs in situations where 500 vertical feet can be lost in seconds. I use a .270, but it's a Wby.
BD

The .270 Weatherby is an impressive round. It is the flattest shooting round I have ever fired.

[BD]

OMG, I married well. I just finished an elk roast daube, with mushrooms and carrots, mopped up with pop overs and followed by an apple tart tatin. I carried it out in 2012, and I've been rewarded many times since.
BD

[Clay M]

Elk is my favorite meat of all the wild game. Just finished a bowl of Whitetail Chili, and my son is cutting up the two deer he killed a week ago.We process our own meat. The only way to go if you want it done right.

[375RUGER]

A well placed shot with a 243 will do it. I offered SWMBO the 243 w/100g Partitions or the 7mm RM to take on a cow elk hunt. I guess she thought the 243 was marginal. Never once complained about the 7 when she was practicing.
The wildest 243 story I ever heard was of a young lady who dropped an oryx DRT. Guide says it's the only oryx he ever saw die that quick. He wasn't there when I hit one with a 375 Ruger.
Double lung an elk with a bullet that expands and he's going down.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

[300savage]

if all i had to hunt elk with was a 260 i would pick exactly your same brand of poison.
but its not so i use bigger and harder hitting calibers instead.
you dont always get a storybook shot opportunity, standing broadside at a decent range.
your just as apt to spend a week or so hunting your tail off only to see one turn and trot away from you into the brush on the last evening of your hunt.
i want a caliber and bullet that will punch through a lot of elk to reach the vital parts.
that combination you are asking about will do just that, it is just that there are better choices.
but with that said if you can shoot that one better then it may be the best for you.
a 260 with a 140 triple shock is wicked medicine and plenty capable.
i would not feel undergunned if i were you.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got a number of rifles and am not expert on elk. If i was to go it would probably be with a 7 or 300 mag of some sort. Minimun in my mind would be a 2506. No doubt the smaller guns will kill but I guess i have to ask why. An elk hunt anymrore will set you back some serious coin. that is unless they live in the state you do and you have access to good hunting land. To me to go out there with a marginal gun doesnt even make sense. Ive got nothing to prove. It doesnt nothing for me to tell someone i can kill an elk with a 243 or even a 2506 for that matter.

[Jevyod]

I understand the opinions expressed. I will explain a bit on how I came to ask the question! I confess I do own a model 700 in 7mm Rem mag. I just am not a fan of the recoil. I know an option would be to add a good recoil pad. But the length of pull is already almost too long. So I might be looking at cutting down the stock (which is synthetic) but I am really not sure I want to mess with all that. Or I could get an aftermarket laminate and cut that down. But again, it is a workhorse gun, and it doesn't make sense to me to spend 150 bucks on it, then be concerned about scratching it. That is why I was asking about my 260. So maybe I will just have to see what I can do with my 7mm.

[300savage]

again it matters most what you shoot best and are the most comfortable with.
let me just say this,, that 260 with a 140 barnes will shoot through most elk lengthwise..
the bullet here is the great equalizer, i would rather shoot your 260 with your bullet choice than any 7mag with a conventional non partition or non bonded bullet.
i think you should take your 260 IF you use that bullet.
it sounds like you like it and shoot it well, or at least better than a bigger caliber.
and i have killed my share of elk and have a great deal of respect for their will to live.
toughest creature pound for pound in north america if you hit one wrong, and sometimes even if you hit them right.
350 yards with that setup is a chip shot if you can shoot at all.
elk are big as you know and if you can hit a pie plate at that.bbrange with a field rest then you can hit an elk through the lungs no worries.
three inches high at a hundred and you can pull dead center .
stop fretting, your little 260 with that bullet will blow a hole out yonder side of the biggest bull ever sucked air.
how much more mountainside do you want to penetrate ?

[GabbyM]

If the 7mm Mag has a BDL stock on it. First thing to do is toss that. Get a CDL stock or any other straighter stock. Better pad on a BDL stock will not fix it's face slapping tendency. I like the Boyd's Sporter in Walnut. Am bored with laminate and it's heavier than walnut.

An even better solution, since you don't like the rifle enough to shoot it or take it hunting, is to take that Rem 700 into your local gun store. Trade it off on a new FN Winchester M70 in caliber of choice. Like 30-06 , that believe it or not recoils like a puppy in that rifle. I can shoot mine with full throttle 178 grain J bullet loads from prone and it doesn't hurt my shoulder. 7mm Mag and 30-06 are supposed to recoil about the same. Pick your poison. Another big deal is the fact you get a real safety that blocks the firing pin. Like your M77 has.

Personally though I'd not hesitate to use a 260 with 140 grain bullets like a Deep Curl or any of the bullets that hold together. My daughter took a 270 win Elk hunting this year with 140 grain Nosler Accu Bond. I'd of chosen a more solid bullet but that's splitting hairs and personal preference. Her husband shot his bull with a 7mm mag and the Berger VLD. IMHO there wouldn't be a nickels difference between a 260 and 7mm mag except the obvious range advantage of the 7mm mag. Difference between a 7mm mag and a 270 isn't worth burning the extra powder unless you are 1,000 yard match shooting. I'll take my 30-06 over any of them in part because it's a great cast boolit shooter. I read about all the stories in AR magazine by Finn Aagaard reminiscing his Kenyan plains shooting African game with a 6.5 x 55mm to question a 260's abilities. Peoples idea of what an idea bullet is varies.

[Clay M]

I understand the opinions expressed. I will explain a bit on how I came to ask the question! I confess I do own a model 700 in 7mm Rem mag. I just am not a fan of the recoil. I know an option would be to add a good recoil pad. But the length of pull is already almost too long. So I might be looking at cutting down the stock (which is synthetic) but I am really not sure I want to mess with all that. Or I could get an aftermarket laminate and cut that down. But again, it is a workhorse gun, and it doesn't make sense to me to spend 150 bucks on it, then be concerned about scratching it. That is why I was asking about my 260. So maybe I will just have to see what I can do with my 7mm.

My suggestion would be as you say. Practice with your 7mm mag and see what you can do with it.Start out with lighter bullets and loads and slowly work up and see if you can tolerate the recoil.I have fired so many heavy caliber rifles off the bench that I pretty much can ignore recoil. Although I never really liked shooting my .458 off the bench.
Proficiency with whatever you choose is important.So the bottom line is practice.

[bob208]

if you can shoot then the 260 will do if not. well I don't know of anything that will work. a guy I shoot with uses a 6mm Remington.

[Jevyod]

I can shoot the 260 quite well. But I like what Clay M said. I think I should first try shooting low end on my mag and working up and see if I can get used to the recoil.

[300savage]

you will never get used to recoil.
unless you change some things on the stock, pad, and or fit things are only going to get worse.
and shooting from a bench is the worst thing you can do actually, well next to prone that is.
if you want to use that 7 then either get a new pad put on, or a muzzle break and always wear hearing protection.
but you will never build your tolerance for pain by starting low and building up.
but this may be one of those things you will need to discover for yourself.
you will waste a lot of powder and lead, make your flinch even worse,, end up totally hating the 7mag and eventually wind up fixing the stock, or selling it and still end up using the 260.
but hey thats half the fun..

[clownbear69]

I haven't gone hunting elk. Hopefully I will be picked for it this year. Many of my buddies use a 30-06. Since my distance is about 300 yards and less ill be using this until I make my .35 Whelen. My philosophy when it comes to hunting is why limit yourself. Just use what you feel most comfortable with.

Just remember (forget name) killed X amount of elephants with a 7x57 mauser. That's no more than a 7mm-08

[fouronesix]

X= WDM Bell. X1= over a thousand. Bell was an ivory hunter. He mostly used heavy, full patch (military ammo) bullets in a 7x57, many (or most?) kills from elevated stands & brain shots.

[Jevyod]

Actually I just remembered something. Isnt there some kind of liquid something that you can put in the stock to reduce recoil?

[375RUGER]

I understand the opinions expressed. I will explain a bit on how I came to ask the question! I confess I do own a model 700 in 7mm Rem mag. I just am not a fan of the recoil. I know an option would be to add a good recoil pad. But the length of pull is already almost too long. So I might be looking at cutting down the stock (which is synthetic) but I am really not sure I want to mess with all that. Or I could get an aftermarket laminate and cut that down. But again, it is a workhorse gun, and it doesn't make sense to me to spend 150 bucks on it, then be concerned about scratching it. That is why I was asking about my 260. So maybe I will just have to see what I can do with my 7mm.
Not a fan of the recoil, huh? Do you shoot it from a bench or field positions? I never once let my wife shot the 7 off of the bench because I knew the recoil would ruin it for her. Your body can manage/distribute the recoil better shooting from field positions.

[clownbear69]

X= WDM Bell. X1= over a thousand. Bell was an ivory hunter. He mostly used heavy, full patch (military ammo) bullets in a 7x57, many (or most?) kills from elevated stands & brain shots.

Thanks couldn't remember the name. while most were brain shots he still took the elephant down. For myself Im not the best shot so a larger cal helps. But to fast is also no helpful. I have had 150 gr 30-06 go right through a deer without it knowing it. Lost 1 deer that way to my neighbor

[GabbyM]

Back to the stocks:
Reasons I suggested changing stocks on your M700 if it’s a BDL.

One: I’ve owned BDL stocked rifles in 243 Win. It now sports a Fajen stock. Due to the terrible recoil in 243 caliber with a 24 inch varmint barrel.

Two: I’ve had this Weatherby Vanguard in 270 Win since the mid 1970’s which I’ve written maybe to much about here already. Wood stock in Weatherby’s style with lots of drop and a big Mote Carlo. It kicked like a mule and was not shot to much because of that. Then I got this Win 70 in 30-06 and it was like a ***** cat. Well dugh. I restocked the Weatherby with a Boyd’s Sporter model with Patchmayer Decelerator pad. Probably would have been more sensible to trade it on for another Win 70 in 270 but I’ve a history with the rifle. Mistake I made was not getting the checkering for another $40 or so. It’s smooth and a tad hard to hang onto.

Three: I’ve shot my son in laws 7mm Mag in a Tika T3 Light with that Horrible plastic stock. It really does not kick and I was shooting it prone with summer clothes on. Just comes down to a straight line stock that doesn’t slap you up side the face and knock your eye glasses askew.

[Clay M]

Actually I just remembered something. Isnt there some kind of liquid something that you can put in the stock to reduce recoil?

Mercury suppressors. I have used them in a .416 rem and a .458 win mag. They do help,mostly by getting the weight of the rifle up some.

[NVScouter]

Bigger is better but not really faster, think break bone. I almost brought my 6.5X55 with 140s out but didnt, maybe next year if I get into an area with 100-200y shots. The moose hunting with 6.5X55 is mainly done with 160g RNs in under 100y woody areas. That massive SD punches long straight hole, however I dont see it relavent to many Elk hunters getting longer shots.

My area this year was like BD described. Good shots break both shoulders and pin them. Elk in fairly flat rolling hills can MOVE! Double lunged elk can run over the next hill and lay in a gorge to die..if they dont run up over another one.

My .308 with 165g Interlocks worked very well so I'd say that energy level is minimum.

[Artful]

Shot placement, Shot placement, Shot placement!
I knew a guy when I was young that took all his game with a 220 swift -
-including Elk - ALL with a NECK SHOT behind the skull
- if he couldn't get the shot he wanted he didn't shoot

Bullet Construction is Key on any game round
- if it can't penetrate to vitals it's no good,
- if it penetrates all the way thru it's wasting energy.
But I'd rather have too much than not enough

All that said I hunted for Elk in Oregon (Western Side) you got
two kinds of shooting -

deep in the brush (short range - one shot) and you wanted DRT.
For the timber I have two rifles I carried - Savage 99 - 358 WCF and Marlin 45-70.

The other shot you got was across a Canyon/Clear Cut - you may get more than one shot.
For long distance I have two Bolt-action rifles - 300 Win Mag and 375 Weatherby Mag.

I was at one time teased about the rifles I used,
we had a pre-season sight in, the partner I had that day
put up a target (paper on plywood nailed to a live Doug Fir tree)
at 250 or so yards
- he fired his 7mm mag for group we went up all the rounds were captured
in the tree - group was were he wanted it
- we drove back to the landing and I fired I was using my 375 WM
- 300 grain Sierra SPBT over max load of 4350 (88 grains powder)
Not only hit the target, but went through 35+ inches of wood
and hit another tree and barked it before leaving for parts unknown.

That year he hit an Elk with his 7mm Mag (I wasn't with him)
and he wanted a picture of the Elk he got
- He put the 7mm rifle in the rack and backed up to take the picture
- unfortunately he didn't make sure the Elk was expired before he did this.

The Elk got up and ran off into the timber - with his rifle!
- The next year he was using a different rifle - 340 Weatherby Mag.
Is the 7mm Mag undergunned on Elk?
- No but Elk are very tough and have the ability produce a lot of blood
- I know of one taken in Rifle season with an arrow into the chest/lung
from Bow season over a month before - it bled every day until until rifle season.

[Big Z]

A barnes will buy you some good penetration with smaller guns. I might be tempted to use a 223 on a cow one day. Well, maybe not but I don't doubt they'll kill elk.

[longhorn]

Not sure why this became a discussion of recoil, but I've found over the years that those elegant straight "American Classic" stocks beat me mercilessly. I'd rather a Weatherby style Monte Carlo in any caliber--it's all about body shape.

[opos]

Grew up in Colorado a long time ago..when elk hunting was all wide open with few if any guides..we shot a lot of them..bigger ones and smaller ones. I never shot an elk at much over 100-150 yards...used a 30-06 converted 1917 Enfield Winchester (sporterized or bubbized..your call) with 180 grain Corlock Remington ammo...Never lost one...had to follow very few...shot placement is key as said and I believe in being just a bit over gunned than even slightly under gunned...just 2cents from an old man that spent half of his 76 years pounding up and down the mountains. First rule in the mountains where we hunted was "never shoot anything that's running down hill"...Carried a huge mulie out of a deep canyon one time when a buddy shot it running full tilt downhill...what a day that was.

[horsesoldier]

I killed this elk here in Idaho with my 6.5x55mm swede. This is the 2nd elk I have shot with this rifle.I personally shoot a nosler partition, 1245 grain with a max load of varget.I have driven this bullet through 4 feet of elk( steep quartering shots).I killed a large whitetail this year right at 500 yards.The partition punched through the shoulder and exited. Elk are not bullet proof. Punch a hole through both lungs and get your pack board ready.http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m538/Andrew338win/idahoelk_zpse262c3f6.jpg (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/Andrew338win/media/idahoelk_zpse262c3f6.jpg.html)

[NVScouter]

Horsesoldier what ranges do you get for shots?

What bullet weight since I doubt your shooting a 1245g. Typos the curse of a good post.

[osteodoc08]

Marginal with good shot placement and good bullet: 25-06. Several articles abound about this same scenario and caliber.

My personal minimum 7mm-08. Just so happens to be my favorite rifle caliber as well. Recoil from the 7-08 tends to be well tolerated by most shooters.

[dk17hmr]

My thought on this.....if you live in elk country where you can hunt several days of the season and be selective a "marginal" round is fine. If you are PAYING for a guided hunt put some time in at the range and use your bigger caliber, you are only going to be shooting 1-5 shots in the field and you wont notice recoil. I would have no problem with the 260, but I live in elk country and don't pay a guide. If I lived back east and this was my one chance at an elk hunt I would be taking a large caliber rifle....350 yards isn't out of the question but if you think your going to shoot out to 350 yards on an animal practice at 500 to 600 yards.

[1950Hudson]

Well, the bullet that exits is not necessarily wasting energy if it is letting the animal bleed out both sides, especially as exits seem to bleed more than entrance holes. If the critter drops, good. If not, bigger blood trails are easier to follow. Even with both lungs hit, a lot depends on where in the lungs, and elk that are technically very dead can still stroll off a long, long way. One-shot stops make good campfire tales, but for me, if one hole all the way through is good, two is even better.

There are a couple of theories as to making a rifle more effective, higher velocity or bigger bullet. Personally, I'm a fan of the bigger bullets but to each his own. I sold off my 300 Win mag partly because of the recoil and partly because I also like shorter cartridges in shorter actions. It's not that the recoil is so great in actual energy, it just seems to be sharper, a slap instead of a punch. For lack of a better description, it's not so much painful as it is annoying.

My current elk rifle is a 338-Hawk, which is based on 338-06 and blown out a bit. With 225 or heavier bullets, the recoil is greater than the 300 Win mag. but it's a more solid, slower jolt and easier to deal with.

The method I was shown for comfortably shooting bigger guns from the bench is just to sit up as straight and erect as you can. Instead of hunching over the stock so your shoulder is in the same position it would be if you were shooting prone, put your rest bags up on something so you can sit up straight. I've used a shooting box, ammo cans, whatever, to get tall enough. This may mean taking enough sandbags so you can also prop your elbows up higher as well but the end result is your shoulder is in the same position it would be if you were shooting standing and your body can move with the recoil instead of crushing the front of your shoulder down onto the top of your rib cage. 12ga slugs, 45-70 lever guns with heavy bullets and fire-forming 338 wildcat cases all feel better sitting straighter.

As to any given bullet being a guaranteed performer, maybe si, maybe no, because there are no two shots that are ever identical. I have two 338 bullets recovered from the same bull elk that were fired as fast as I could work the bolt. They entered about six inches apart and passed through the body the same way. Same bullet, same load, same day, same elk, name brand bullet, nearly the same spot. One recovered just under the far-side hide just behind the foreleg, the other from the far-side elbow joint on the foreleg. One bullet is perfectly mushroomed and could be a model in a bullet ad. It's twin apparently just grazed a rib going in which bent the bullet like a banana and kept it from mushrooming at all, though it looked like it tumbled all the way through.

350 yard shots are quite doable on elk as the vital zone is large. With any rifle, though, a look at a ballistic table might be a good idea before pulling the trigger on longer shots. Using a 300-Whatever Mag as an example, no matter what energy it has at the muzzle, there will be some distance down range where the remaining energy is only about the same as a 30-30 at 50 or a 100. At that point you are not really hitting the elk any harder than you could with a 30-30 if you got closer, and bullets designed to work at higher energies may not even be that effective.

No matter what you are shooting, you can seemingly do everything right and still come up empty. IIRC there was a really large bull elk taken in northern New Mexico a few years back that probably had as many lives as a cat. Over the years he had accumulated something like five healed rifle wounds. And when he was finally put down it turned out he was carrying parts of three or more arrows as well.

If it were easy, it wouldn't be any fun. Whatever you carry, practice to proficiency. Good Luck! Good Hunting, May God Bless! (and when you succeed, send me some jerky...;-) )

[GabbyM]

I like the idea of the 338 Hawk. Every since I bought a Hornady 3rd edition back in the 1970’s and saw the 8mm-06 listed I’ve been intrigued by necked up 06 rounds.

Saw a new Nosler bullet the other day. Accubond long range. They have 30’s in a 190 and 210. The 210 grain has a B.C. of .730! Believe my 30-06 would push that big boy along just fine. Nosler load data says a full charge of RL22 moves it at 2,646 fps. From a 24” barrel. That would get me out of the marginal range. :wink:

My daughter hunts Elk with a 270 Win using 140 grain AccuBonds. That and the 6.5mm is where I'd draw the line. I'd not chastise a man for using a 243 with 100 gain Grand Slams. I just don't see why they would want to. I get lots of goofy looks when I show up with cast boolits. Those same guys a week later will be out in the woods with a bow and arrow feeling just fine.

[NVScouter]

Very well said.


My thought on this.....if you live in elk country where you can hunt several days of the season and be selective a "marginal" round is fine. If you are PAYING for a guided hunt put some time in at the range and use your bigger caliber, you are only going to be shooting 1-5 shots in the field and you wont notice recoil. I would have no problem with the 260, but I live in elk country and don't pay a guide. If I lived back east and this was my one chance at an elk hunt I would be taking a large caliber rifle....350 yards isn't out of the question but if you think your going to shoot out to 350 yards on an animal practice at 500 to 600 yards.

GabbyM my friend hunted with me twice just to see what the GIANT 375H&H was going to do to an Elk. He was very disappionted why my cast boolit wasted 1/2 the meat his 270 did :D! He was also waiting for the little whitetail I shot to explode. He still doesnt know what to think of my boolits since its against everything a 27 year old hunter has grown up to "know".

[Rick Hodges]

I own a 7mm Rem Mag. and I consider it marginal for elk. I am not an elk hunter, but they are big tough animals, known to carry a lot of lead a long way. I consider a well constructed 180gr. 30 cal bullet to be the minimum and if I were going elk hunting would build a .338 Win Mag. loaded with 225 Nosler Partitions. Overkill? Maybe, but I would feel better.

[Lloyd Smale]

Come on guys were talking a 7mag. Aint much recoil there. If we were talking a 300wby or a 338 i could see some wining but anyone who can shoot an o6 can shoot a 7mag. Heck my grandsons shoot mine and dont complain and there just 13 and 15. Just have to put some time behind a bigger gun to convince your brain all that noise and the little bit of recoil thats there startles you much more then it actually hurts you.

[300savage]

depends completely on how much it weighs, stock fit and if a person is loading it to its potential, or shooting anemic factory loads.
i have a 7.5 pound when ready to go stainless 7mag that i put together for hard climbing elk hunting and with my loads from a bench it will make your eyes unfocused for a sec.
i dont remember ever feeling it when shooting at game. but frankly trying to he-man your way through the pain of a hard kicking rifle from the bench has ruined more shooters than any single other factor in my opinion.

recoil and pain are relative to each individual, i have a friend whos pain tolerance is so high it is simply freakish, mine on the other hand is kind of between a girl scout and a slightly tuffer girl scout..
but there are a few things in this life i can do extremely well and making things expire is one of them.
fighting a flinch through tuff guy try may sound good on paper or with your drinking buddies but is complete and total bs in real life.
if you are wanting to shoot your best you absolutely must know it is NOT going to hurt. and a rifle that punishes you from a bench can be shot comfortably from field positions.
or even just at live game , a hard kicking rifle can be used without long term detrimental effects because we are focused on something else.
and like the hormone produced in a womans body after childbirth that erases the memory of the pain so that she will later allow us hairy legs back in bed, the adrenaline from shooting at game works somewhat the same way.
but make no mistake hurting yourself from a bench can and probably will create a flinch that you nay never get rid off.
if you want to disagree just go get yourself a 7pound 300 ultramag with an iron buttplate and see how well your theories and macho work now.
we all have our threshhold of what kind of hit we can stand and take without flinching, remember it aint about being tuff, its about placing a projectile as accurately on a target or game as possible.

[GabbyM]

Well 300 savage. I used to think my 270 Win kicked like a mule. It did. but then I figured out it was just the lousy designed stock. Mounted a new stock and that's solved.

I've shot my son in laws 7mm Mag in a Tikka T3 lite. Those things are under seven pounds. It does not kick. Was shooting full power 168 grain J bullets over H-1000 flopped down prone in desert sand. In fact it kicked less than my 30-06 I'd just sat down running 178 grain A-Max. Why wouldn't it keck less. Less power less kick. The 06 doesn't kick. It roars and shoves you a tad. Now it's a FN Win M70. Pick up an 06 in a Remington BDL stock and it will about make your eyes black out at the shot. My 115 pound daughter shoots that 7mm Mag. Her rifle is a 270 Win in another Tikka T3 Lite.

[300savage]

gabby your exactly right, but thats like saying my car drives better with tires.
of course it will, even better with the right ones.
drop at heel, comb height, LOP, offset, weight, material, all
of these effect how the firing mech which is the metal parts transmits opposite force back to us via the piece we hang onto, the stock.
but these are all really no brainer questions..
an 06 shooting 10gr heavier bullet is going to kick pretty similiar to a 7 mag, depending on if we are talking factory or handloads.
so yes, the stock has a huge effect.

[waksupi]

I'm inclined to stick with slow, fat, and heavy. They always work.
I've seen elk killed with both 7X57, and 7mm Mag. Granted, not enough for a good study, but with like hits, the 7X57 did kill faster. I have observed similar with .30 bores, in standard and magnum chamberings. I believe the magnums tend to make too large of a wound channel for efficient bleed out, allowing the animals to travel further.

[ShooterAZ]

I have taken quite a few Elk here in Northern AZ. All have been with 30 Caliber. 30-30 Win in the thick Pinyon-Juniper, 300 Savage, 308, 300 Win Mag for the open country. As mentioned, they are not hard to kill with a good lung shot. But a poorly placed shot will ruin your day (or night).They are tough animals and can cover a lot of rough country in a hurry, even (especially) when wounded. Personally, I would consider 6mm/243 as minimum with 100-105gr J-bullets, given modest ranges. I have seen many a youngster bag their Elk with those calibers, no problem. Shot placement is always critical.

[MT Gianni]

Hits behind the diaphragm are marginal on Elk. A guy I know starts his daughters with a 22-250. He hunts his fathers ranch but the girls have killed 8 bulls between them in the last six years.

[300savage]

[QUOTE=MT Gianni;2609504]Hits behind the diaphragm are marginal on elk"


that sentence simply should be the understatement of the year.

[NVScouter]

I believe the magnums tend to make too large of a wound channel for efficient bleed out, allowing the animals to travel further.

I'm a recovering recoil junky and always read about the 2700FPS MV rule. The more I shoot animals the more I'm getting back to that thinking. I do think at some point too much hydrostatic shock can gel up and create less blood flow. The uber mags also tend to give false confidence in shooters who take shots for granted or out of thier shooting capability.

I've only retrieved two seperated jackets from a big game animal. I've never had to chase a big game animal of mine all over the country going for decent shots and complete pass throughs. My .243 experience could have gone that way but he didnt know he was shot and I didnt pressure him. So when he fell over 5 minutes later we were both suprised. Little hole in and out of both lungs. MV around 3000fps 100 Speer hot core SP. No expansion at 240y impacting at over 2500fps....if you got the same performace on an elk would that satisfy you?

I've only shot two critters with a .243 and wont again. I've seen more drop well than poorly from .243s but my experience jaded me honestly. I vote for bigger holes. Recoil of any 308 base casing will recoil the same as long as weapon and bullet weights are close. A 308WIN 125g NBT at 2700fps will have less recoil than a 243 loading a 105g Amax at 3000fps. I've shot 243/260/7-08/308 side by side and there is no difference. I'm glad a few companies are making 308 compact/youth rifles again. Load em light for deer and work up to 165-180g loads for bigger game.

Light rifles and heavy bullets are what will get ya for recoil.

[wrench man]

I just kinda skimmed over this thread?, but I'll put i my $.02
I've only taken one Elk, I used my Ruger M77 338 Win Mag, ammo was factory loaded Federal Nosler 210grn Partitions, one shot at a paced 97 yards, it wasn't a "DRT" shot?, it went about 20 yrds before expiring, all of the energy was expended in the animal, I do have the recovered bullet.
As for recoil?, I won't say that I'm sensitive?, but after 5 rounds of the 338 I've had enough!, I don't recall feeling ANY?? when I shot the elk?
Personally I'd error on the big side of things rather than the small side.

[deepwater]

1950Hudson, entry #37.
Excellent information and well done story.

deepwater

[TheGrimReaper]

Personally I think it would be very hard to beat a 26 caliber.

[waksupi]

Personally I think it would be very hard to beat a 26 caliber.

Remember, most of us are talking cast boolit use. Although I have used smaller chamberings, to me, elk medicine starts with a .35. I know the OP asked about jacketed bullets, but I'm sure he will come around eventually! :drinks:

[jlchucker]

They don't have elk around my parts, and mostly we hunt in the woods. I've never hunted elk, but have always thought that if I had a 30-06 I'd be okay with it. And I could use boolits. Then, a while back, some guy here posted a picture of himself and an elk he shot with his 38-40, old Winchester 92. That animal looked huge. And it also looked pretty dead, too. :coffeecom

[358wcf]

Gents-
Just another opinion being offered here- BUT- elk are large game, by any means-
There is quite a bit of discussion regarding the 6.5mm with 140-160gr jwords, and they have proven adequate or better for decades, especially in Scandinavia.
Larger rounds in the 270-30cal range are more popular here.
When it comes to cast boolits, as we discuss with regularity here, I think it is all about "energy on target" and penetration. Since we can't boost the velocity of cast boolits too high to gain energy, we must increase mass (boolit weight) to work in our behalf-
I second the notion that elk boolits start at 35cal, and go up from there.
I'm partial to the 358Win and the 35Whelen in any of it's versions. A 375 boolit on either a 308 or 30-06 case would be even better, unless you have a 375H&H handy. Big, heavy boolits do the job, every time, on both sides of the critter-
Just my 2Cents worth-
Chuck 358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[gkainz]

Ol' George got himself an elk with this rifle ... anyone identify it?

http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/8/72012.jpg

in case anyone's wondering, that ls LtCol George A Custer, in the Black Hills.

[GabbyM]

Everyone knows Custer used a 50 caliber Rolling block out there. 50-70 IIRC.
That's a great photo of Custer. Never seen that.

[horsesoldier]

The bullet weight for my swede is 125 grain partition. If your talking about using cast I would take waksupi's advice and start at 35 caliber. My shot on that elk was right at 100 yards.The year before I shot one at 150 yards.

Its all about matching the bullet to the game. A 7mm remington magnum with a 175 grain partition bullet is almost second to none.Forget this junk about dumping the energy in the game.You want a hole going in and inch and a half to 2 inch going out.You want to be able to drive that bullet through whatever it hits.Yes elk are tougher than deer, especially whitetail deer.But you poke a big enough hole in both lungs its not going anywhere.

[mikeym1a]

As with any game and rifle combo, placement is the key. How close can you get? how good is your rifle? How good is your shooting? A .22RF can drop a deer in its tracks if the bullet is placed in the right spot. It's all up to you. Oh, good hunting!!!!!! 8-)

[Uncle Grinch]

if you can shoot then the 260 will do if not. well I don't know of anything that will work. a guy I shoot with uses a 6mm Remington.


I seem to remember reading many years ago where Bob Milek (for those that don't remember, was a writer for Peterson Publishing) used a 6mm Rem once for elk, though his favorite elk gun was a 25-06, I believe. But, then again, I'm old and tend to get things mixed up!

[Wolfer]

Having shot several elk and seen a lot more shot I've developed an opinion on this. Over the years my opinion has changed a little.
If you put it in the right spot it doesn't much matter what you use. If you don't put it in the right spot it doesn't much matter what you use.
If you live in the state your hunting in and your tag doesn't cost as much as your house payment, if you can do some scouting before season, if you can possibly hunt multiple seasons. If you can pass on shots that are not perfect then you can hunt with a marginal caliber.
A bull tag in colo costs me almost two weeks wages. I drive 900 miles to get there. I can't scout ahead of time because I can't take off work that much. There have been several years that I never got a shot. Elk on tv seem to offer broadside shots and while I've shot several broadside I usually have to take the shot they give me. I use a rifle/ bullet combo that is up to the task. 338 win mag and 210 gr triple shocks. I'm not a fan of Texas heart shots but if that's all I get I'll take it.
Yes elk are tough but if you put any bullet thru both lungs it won't go far. The trick is getting to the boiler room from the angle they give you.

[tygar]

Ol' George got himself an elk with this rifle ... anyone identify it?

http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/8/72012.jpg

in case anyone's wondering, that ls LtCol George A Custer, in the Black Hills.

Looks like my old Remington rolling block.

Forgot to say. 300 wm. I have hunted elk, moose, bear etc & with the tough ones bigger is better, bigger & faster is even better, but not too fast.

I lived on the edge of the trophy elk Tioga area in Or. & hunted some big elk. I've had close shots (35yds) where I punched thru the lungs & the dam thing ran 1/2 mile down hill on a mountain. Shot them at 400 & dropped right there. Shoot them good in the right place with enough gun, it works all the time.

True story. Was hunting with a friend in Canada in 85 for moose & grizzly & blacks. He had a .257 Wby I had a .338 Kleinguenther built for this hunt.

He was sighted in at 100yds, I was sighted POA/POI at 350. We were hunting clear cuts & longer shots were the norm, so I sighted his Wby in at 325yds for him & told him holdovers for longer shots.

I shot my moose at 95yds, griz at 50 yds & black at 125. The moose didn't go down at the shot but didn't move, put another in the same spot & he dropped. Griz ran a good 100yds, black dropped. .338, 250gr.

My friend never saw a thing until the last couple hours of the hunt, a moose on top of a ridge waaaaay far away. They stalked to within about 500yds but the bull saw them & was starting to move. They were downhill & 500 away & he had no choice but to shoot if he wanted anything.

Held over the back, got 1 shot & the moose disappeared. They hiked to where it had been & found it right there with a little hole in its heart.

So, yes little will kill well - sometimes, big doesn't always kill well, but big will kill well more often than little. (decent shot placement is a given)

[AZ-JIM]

No 2 shots will ever be the same, as in the post above; 400 yd shot DRT, double lung and run 1/2 mile, it happens. It depends on caliber, distance, velocity, bullet weight/ design. Elk are tough and will cover serious ground it a hurry while making it seem effortless. Shot placement is key, right behind that is a heavy enough bullet with enough velocity to do its job. At extended distances, the bullet has to be going fast enough to expand/mushroom the way it was designed to, jacketed or cast or it is no different than using a FMJ. I have this discussion with guys and they cant grasp the idea that the bullet slows down and loses energy , from the time it leaves the muzzle, much less at 600yards. There are many hunters here in AZ that use .243 or 6mm wildcat of your choice and alot of them are youth hunters. There are alot of elk taken by them too. There are guys as well that purposly try to take them at 700yards some do and some dont. Some do and cant recover the animal....(different post for a different time) If you poke one in the lungs it will go down, the difference is, how big is the hole and how much damage did it do? IMHO, .243; keep it under 200yards for jacketed and 125 for cast. .308, 30-06; 400 for jacketed, 200 for cast. Magnums add 50 yards.
I have more respect for the animals I hunt than I do for most people, if the shot is not ethical and the round is not up to the task I wont shoot. My quantity isnt as high as some but my quality is higher than most and that is what matters to me.
As for recoil, when you have that bull in the scope, the last thing on your mind will be recoil. Focus on making a clean kill. It will be over fast and you wont even remember that the recoil happened. I would stay away from a muzzle break too.....if you like your hearing. Im not about to mess with ear plugs and such at the moment of truth. I have a job to do, make a clean kill

az-jim

[300savage]

thats about says it all, and well.

[Monttexan]

Having read through this thread, I've debated on whether to put in my 2 cents. This is one of those times when everyone has there opinion and they all smell the same/ Ford vs. Chevy/ Tastes great, less filling sort of conversations. The OP did not specify cast or not. It could be assumed so given the site we are on, but many others have mentioned assorted jacketed bullets they have used and/or recommend. All of my hunting experience to date has been with jacketed. That being said I'm chiming in with a few personal observations, all of which assume the shooter does his part and places the bullet where it needs to be.

A 7mm has plenty of mojo for elk. I have an uncle that, last I knew had shot over 20 elk with a 7mm and he never felt under gunned. He was however very impressed with how quickly an animal dropped when shot by my dad's 30-06.

One of my best friends feels he needs at least a .300 Win Mag to hunt elk. He is a big guy so the recoil beats him up (he doesn't get moved by it, it just hits him) but he feels he needs that caliber to do the job right. I'm not sure any more how many elk he has shot, but last I knew, none had run more than 50 yards.

Between me and my dad we have shot 9 elk. 8 with 30-06 (180 grain spitzer) and 1 with .338 magnum (225 gr. spitzer IIRC). The range of the shots taken span from about 10 yards up to 450 yards. The furthest an animal ran was about 25 yards and that was the animal shot at the closest range; double lung through and through. 1 other animal ran about 20 feet before piling up. She was shot at 450 yards. The rest dropped DRT. I have seen what a 180 gr. bullet moving at about 2700 fps can do. Some might say that a shot shouldn't be taken at an animal at some of the ranges I've mentioned. Fine, that opinion is valid, depending on the shooter and the circumstances. The shots were taken with full knowledge of the ranges involved, the trajectory of the bullet based on how the rifle was sighted in, and having a good rest and time to make the shot. One shot was very late in the day and long range so we hedged our bet to fill the freezer: we both lined up on one animal, took a different hold for range, counted it down, and pulled the triggers at the same time. We learned who made the shot when the bullet was found while we were butchering the animal. We have both passed up other shots when we weren't sure we could make a clean kill.

I've been called a liar to my face for saying I'd dropped elk in their tracks. Apparently that's impossible. My dad was viewed as a celebrity for dropping an elk with 1 shot during a late season permit hunt. The only other animal taken that day in that area had been shot 27 times from low in the hind legs all the way up through the full length of the body and into the neck.

Would I go elk hunting with my 25-06? Not intentionally. Would I shoot an elk with it? If one wandered out in front of me while I was packing it and the conditions and range were such that I was confident of a clean kill, then absolutely.

What does all of my rambling mean? Nothing. It is merely my observations. I don't care what brand truck you drive. I don't care what beer you drink. I suggest you know your rifle and your ammo intimately before you hunt with them, and I suggest you practice a lot with both before hitting the field. Limit yourself to shorter range shots if using a "lighter" caliber or you lack confidence in your ability to place a long range shot effectively. Heck, put a lower power scope on the rifle to limit your range if you have to. It works. My first hunting rifle was an H&R topper in 30-30. I asked my dad why he'd only put a 2.5 power scope on it. He told me it would keep me from taking a longer shot than I should attempt with that cartridge. He reigned in my inexperienced enthusiasm by making sure I couldn't see well enough to try a shot that I shouldn't.....makes perfect sense to me now!

Otherwise, what AZ-JIM said covers it pretty well....particularly about knowing what energy your ammo will deliver down range.