I want to figure out what pistol my friend's grandfather was issued

[taiden]

Alright gents, my friend's grandfather passed away about a year or two ago, they were very close. I want to try to track down a pistol as close as possible to the one his grandfather was issued.

What information do I need to determine this, and what resources would I use to find the answer?

[pdawg_shooter]

What year and issued by who?

[Rich/WIS]

What service, Army and Marine ground forces used 1911s, AF and Army aviation was big into various S&W revolvers. What time period also matters as to model issued.

[Larry Gibson]

Any pictures of him with it on might also help a lot?

Larry Gibson

[KCSO]

And what army?

[runfiverun]

yep, yep most definitely a time frame and branch of service would help..

[MtGun44]

US Army in WW1 - 1911s and either Colt or S&W 1917 .45 ACP revolvers were common. Not sure
what the Navy issued, probably a .38 revolver - others will have to advise on that.

Army in WW2, pretty much 1911A1s. Navy - pilots got a rough finish .38 Spl Model 10 S&W 4" called
a Victory Model. Lots of other Navy folks got 1911s. AFAIK Army pilots got 1911s, too, but not certain
about that.

Of course, there were every possible pistol in the world carried and used, but not issued in the
US forces.

Of course, if it were the French Army or German Air Force. . . . . . it gets a lot more complex.

Bill

[montana_charlie]

Well, if you find a WWII 1911 with the initials CM scratched on the bottom flat of the grip ... it's the one that was issued to my Dad.
My stepmother sold it in a rummage sale ...

CM

[taiden]

I believe he was WWII navy, but I'm going to try to get as much info as I can before I start looking. He was a tugboat captain after the war and I believe his work was very similar when he was deployed.

[merlin101]

Well, if you find a WWII 1911 with the initials CM scratched on the bottom flat of the grip ... it's the one that was issued to my Dad.
My stepmother sold it in a rummage sale ...

CM

That made me sick just reading it!

[KCSO]

My Uncle was WWII navy and they had both 1911 and 38 revolvers and in 1945 when he was on island recall duty they got to carry Thompson guns.

[schutzen]

Well let me throw a rock in the pond, he may have been a tugboat/ships officer in the Army. Particularly during WWII the US Army had more ships than the US Navy. The blue water ships were all transport craft for troops/equipment while the brown water craft could be assault craft, transport craft, support craft, or tug boats.

If he was in the Army as a sailor, he would have been in the Transportation Corps. They may have been armed with a 1911, a 1917 Revolver, or a .38 Revolver. The only gentleman I ever knew who was a US Army sailor told me he was armed with a 1917 Colt Revolver. He was on a sea going support craft of some type. They would anchor close to the beach shortly after invasions and provide what ever support they did. He had the .45 revolver in case an enemy raiding party tried to board their vessel. He never had to fire it except for practice.

As others have said, a picture would go a long was to id the service and the type of handgun.

[taiden]

I was reluctant to start this thread with essentially zero knowledge, but all of your replies have been really interesting to read. I'll keep updating as I get more info.

[bear67]

My now long gone father in law joined the US Army Air Corp in '44, trained in California and was sent to England. Made 12 missions before the war was over and bailed out once into the English Channel after their plane was shot up. He was issued in England a S&W Model 10, but in 38 S&W, not 38 spl. He had it with him when he bailed out into the water. He was mustered out, but recalled in '48 and flew through Korea, and Vietnam in SAC. He was issued another S&W 10 in 38 Spl in '48 and carried one or the other for his entire career in B-29s through B 52s. My son has his first one and his sons son has the 38 spl. Interesting pieces of family history that I can promise will not be sold. Somewhere I have some WWII ammo with US headstamp in a leather bag that he bought in England to keep his extra ammunition in. My Dad's oldest brother whom I am named for, fought N Africa, Sicily, Italy and the Bulge in the Second Armored and received bronze and silver star and 4 Purple Hearts. He shipped a 1911 home in separate parts and it was the first 45 I shot as a youth. I was out of state when he died and most of his guns "disappeared" before I returned to settle the estate. They were all supposed to go to me, but nothing was left. I especially wanted that US Gov Colt, two other 1911s, a Remington Rand and another colt along with a Browning Auto 22. I had some cousins who I am sure were responsible, but then they never amounted to much. I so have all his tools still because he gave them to me before he died.

I wish you the best of luck in finding out what you can about the grandfather's firearm.

[montana_charlie]

Well, if you find a WWII 1911 with the initials CM scratched on the bottom flat of the grip ... it's the one that was issued to my Dad.
My stepmother sold it in a rummage sale ...

CM
That made me sick just reading it!
You and me, both, brother ...
I never forgave her.

[taiden]

Alright, I'm slowly starting to get some info. He was born 1926 and managed to get enlisted when he was 16. This should put him right in the middle of WWII. It's possible that he was a quartermaster and it's also possible that he was "on a destroyer class vessel on escort detail." I remember stories of him standing on the bow of a vessel and watching planes get shot down. He was definitely overseas and he was definitely Navy.

My understanding of military history and structure is next to nothing so I can't piece this together as being plausible or not. Any thoughts?

[montana_charlie]

Alright gents, my friend's grandfather passed away about a year or two ago, they were very close. I want to try to track down a pistol as close as possible to the one his grandfather was issued.
What leads you to believe he was ever issued a pistol?

CM

[taiden]

What leads you to believe he was ever issued a pistol?

CM

He may not have been, I assumed that anyone enlisted and in a combat zone during WWII would find themselves issued a pistol of some kind.

[schutzen]

I'm with Montana Charlie, was he ever issued a sidearm? If he was a sailor on a Destroyer or a DE, he would not have been issued a sidearm unless he was participating in a landing party action. Any firearm issued to a landing party would have been an arms room weapon issued to whomever as needed. During WWII the Navy did mount numerous landing parties, but they were not he norm. A landing party would have been a special action that he probably would have talked about in detail.

Again, we are back to a picture is worth a 1000 words.

I had 2 uncles and 2 good friends who were sailors. Three of them were never issued a firearm. They shot rifles/pistols in basic, but never picked up firearm again while they were in the service. The forth guy was a UDT man and was issued a 1911 and Remington 1100 with an extended magazine when he went on missions.

[taiden]

That would make sense, I always thought of him as a sailor and not a soldier. It may be that he was never issued anything.

What about training pistols? Is there any way to track that down or is it way too tough to know?

[montana_charlie]

I assumed that anyone enlisted and in a combat zone during WWII would find themselves issued a pistol.
To begin with, the pistol is more of an officer weapon than an enlisted weapon.
Sure, enlisted were provided with sidearms for certain duties, and in many cases they were issued their own pistol. But, the average, everyday, grunt or sailor didn't have one ... or need one.

Officers (and NCOs) typically armed with pistols felt somewhat undergunned in some theaters of war. That prompted the adoption of the M-1 Carbine.

CM

[MtGun44]

I have read several memoirs of ordinary soldiers in the US Army in WW2 and several were
doing everything they could to get a pistol because only officers and sergeants were issued
pistols. The good news was that if you could GET one, even mailed from home, you were
allowed to carry it.

Bill

[jonp]

Well, if you find a WWII 1911 with the initials CM scratched on the bottom flat of the grip ... it's the one that was issued to my Dad.
My stepmother sold it in a rummage sale ...

CM

Did you say Ex-Stepmother? AARRRRGGGHHHHH [smilie=b:

[jonp]

Alright, I'm slowly starting to get some info. He was born 1926 and managed to get enlisted when he was 16. This should put him right in the middle of WWII. It's possible that he was a quartermaster and it's also possible that he was "on a destroyer class vessel on escort detail." I remember stories of him standing on the bow of a vessel and watching planes get shot down. He was definitely overseas and he was definitely Navy.

My understanding of military history and structure is next to nothing so I can't piece this together as being plausible or not. Any thoughts?
You can request this information with a FOIA using his name and date of birth/SSN if he has one or his service number. That will tell you exactly the where and what.
Using that you can pretty much narrow down the issued firearms for that service and time.

[montana_charlie]

Did you say Ex-Stepmother? AARRRRGGGHHHHH [smilie=b:
Not to entirely hijack the thread, but yes - she did become my ex-stepmother within six months after that.
They were already splitting up, but I didn't know it. Otherwise, I would have 'protected' Dad's guns ... which also included a Colt M1908 in .380 which had been his Dad's.
They, and a pile of other 'valuable stuff', went to a single junk dealer who showed up early.

I was at school, so I didn't learn of this until I got home. I (16 years old) called the guy about getting some of it back, but he just laughed at me.

[Boz330]

I have read several memoirs of ordinary soldiers in the US Army in WW2 and several were
doing everything they could to get a pistol because only officers and sergeants were issued
pistols. The good news was that if you could GET one, even mailed from home, you were
allowed to carry it.

Bill

In My dad's diary from Guadalcanal he bought a 1911 there just before going up to the line. He gave $35 for it which was probably pretty dear since the NRA was selling the surplus ones in the 1960s for $18. He was in a heavy weapons platoon on a 30 Browning and carried the gun through the whole war. He cut a new set of grips from the windshield of a downed fighter and had a picture of my mother on one side and his sister and son on the other, under the plexiglass.
On the ship back to the states the rumor was circulated that they would be stripped to their shorts and there duffel bags searched on the dock. Not wanting to see some officer end up with his side arm or be delayed going home after 3 years in the South Pacific he threw it overboard. They didn't search anything when they got off of the ship. To say I would love to have that pistol would be a major understatement.

Bob

[M-Tecs]

They didn't search anything when they got off of the ship.

My Dad got off the boat with two complete 1903 Springfield barreled actions. One in each pant leg. His buddy had the stocks in his pants so they each had a complete 1903 Springfield. It was his first Deer rifle. On a side note he just turned 91 on Thursday. He still shoots prairie dogs very well.

[mikeym1a]

That made me sick just reading it!

Step mother's do that c**p......

[Char-Gar]

Bear...The Smith and Wesson Model 10 was introduced in 1957. During WWII a precursor to the Model 10, the Military and Police was the weapon you describe. While very similar, they are not the same revolver.

[quack1]

Alright, I'm slowly starting to get some info. He was born 1926 and managed to get enlisted when he was 16. This should put him right in the middle of WWII. It's possible that he was a quartermaster and it's also possible that he was "on a destroyer class vessel on escort detail." I remember stories of him standing on the bow of a vessel and watching planes get shot down. He was definitely overseas and he was definitely Navy.


My understanding of military history and structure is next to nothing so I can't piece this together as being plausible or not. Any thoughts?

Don't know if this will help, my dad was a quartermaster on a heavy cruiser in WWII. He said that whenever on the bridge, everyone was armed with a 1911. He didn't know if that was standard procedure on all ships (he was only on that one), or just up to the discretion of each ships' captain.

[bear67]

Char Gar
I knew that, but my typing and brain don't always match. I get confused and go to the book when looking at S&W's even though I have several. On the older ones, I request and pay for a factory letter of manufacture and disposition. Smith has more numbers than even current John Deere Farm Tractor production and that is a lot. I am glad that we were able to keep both GI issue Smiths in the family--my son values his and his son will some day also.

I have some S&W stock in my investment portfolio, but find myself buying 80 to 100+ year old
Smiths. The rest of you need to be buying new S&Ws and Rugers.

[taiden]

Don't know if this will help, my dad was a quartermaster on a heavy cruiser in WWII. He said that whenever on the bridge, everyone was armed with a 1911. He didn't know if that was standard procedure on all ships (he was only on that one), or just up to the discretion of each ships' captain.

Thank you! This is very helpful.

[Char-Gar]

Bear...Here is a little interesting Smith and Wesson factoid: Until 1957 Smith and Wesson had no mechanical drawings of their handguns or parts. There was a master pistol disassembled in their vaults room. When some needed a measurement, he went to the vault room and measured the part. In 1957 they decided to produce detailed mechanical drawings and they started with their most popular model, the Military and Police. As they produced the drawings, each model was assigned a number starting with Model 10, which was the Military and Police.