303 Brit and cast bullets

[4296]

I am fairly new to casting-so far handgun only,but I have an Aussie No. 1 MK III that seems to be suitable for my new hobby. I am interested in others experiences in loading for the 303 British-sizing diameters,bullet styles,lubes etc. One more thing - what size gas checks are used for this caliber? THANKS!!

[StarMetal]

4296

A good bullet for the 303 is the Lyman 314299. Not to be confused with the 311299 which is the same bullet but smaller diameter. The 314299 was made for overly large 30 caliber bores and 303 British. As for size you have to slug your bore and mike the bullet and determine from that. I might at that alot of 303 British rifles have five groove rifling so you need a special mike to mike the bullet. You want the bullet groove rings to be .001 to .002 over the barrels groove diameter. You would also want to fit the bullet to the throat of the barrel. Others here will chime in with other bullets and more info.

Joe

[Johnch]

I use 2 Lee molds for my 303 , #4 Mk1
The C312-185 Is Lee's 303 bullet

The Lee C312-155 is for the 7.62 x 39 but works well for me

Both bullets shoot best as cast from water droped WW + 2% tin, I just push them into the sizing die enough to crimp on the gas check .

I then lube with Lee liquid Alox .

I use fire formed cases that are neck sized only
I shoot moderate charges of AA 5744

Johnch

[Buckshot]

I am fairly new to casting-so far handgun only,but I have an Aussie No. 1 MK III that seems to be suitable for my new hobby. I am interested in others experiences in loading for the 303 British-sizing diameters,bullet styles,lubes etc. One more thing - what size gas checks are used for this caliber? THANKS!!

.........Not aimed at Australian made #1 SMLE, but from posts about them over the years, things were varied enough to cause a Lee custom run to be done 4-5 years ago for a C316-220RF. Another 'Fat 30; was done about a year ago at about 185grs too. Neither were specific to the SMLE, but all the fat 30's (Arg, Jap, Russ, SMLE, etc).

Slug that barrel! :D

.............Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

I have a #1 Mk III [BSA/1918], and its throat is a "skinny" .315". I had Mountain Molds make up a 190 grain flatnosed Fat Thirty for the critter about a year ago, and it gives pretty good accuracy in early trials with the usual 16.0-18.0 x 2400. I sized to .314" because of lack of a .315" size die, and if all goes well I won't spring for the custom H&I set. 92/6/2 metal seems to either slug up enough to fit the throat in my rifle, or sizing the metal down from .316" as-cast to .314"-nominal "springs back" enough to prevent leading and provide accuracy. I'll take it, whatever it is.

Most 30/31 caliber gas check rifle boolit designs use nominal 30 caliber gas checks. I just measured the outside diameters of the 30 and 32 caliber Hornady checks on my bench--the 30's run .318", while the 32's run .334". At .314" sizing, the 30 caliber checks crimp firmly in place on my MM boolit shanks and on Lyman #313631 shanks.

[JeffinNZ]

Hi
I have a No4 Mk2 that loves cast bullets.
I have had great success with Lymans 311466 that I had opened up the throw at .315. I also had one cavity made into a flat nose.
The original round nose throws a wheel weight bullet at 160gr and the flat nose at 175gr.
Re loading; I am presently shooting the FN over 17gr of H4227 for 1600fps sized .312 and it will shoot 10 rounds into 2 MOA religously. The RN I am shooting heat treated wheel weights over 45gr of W748 for 2400fps and this is shooting just over 2 MOA.
My rifle is particularly sensitive to neck tension variations and I anneal the brass every 4 to 5 firings and size with a Lee collet die.
Hope this helps.

[Buckshot]

...........Jeff, a hearty welcome to the board! I'm always glad to see someone from another country posting. It sure adds some depth to things. Do you ever get around any of the guys shooting long range muzzle loaders?

................Buckshot

[NVcurmudgeon]

Jeff, Delighted to have you on the board. Your success with the No. 4 MK 2 is very interesting. I'm going to try your annealed cases and stout loads of WW748 as one of my winter projects in my No. 4 1943 Fazakerly.

[JeffinNZ]

Nice to be here.
Buckshot: We have a number of long range shooters of front stuffers however I shoot a .40cal flintlock mostly out to 100m.
NV: I use the W748 mainly because it is what I load in my .223 though it is great in the .303. I have lapped my barrel so it is very smooth for a military tube and this is helping avoid leading even at 2400fps using my own lube I market in NZ, Beaver Grease.

[Abert Rim]

Jeff: You have beavers down there, too? I have a small jar of rendered beaver grease earned the hard way from a trapping winter two years ago. Amazing how fast it turns liquid at room temp, but I love to use it to seal my arrows, darts and atlatls, especially after staining with walnut husk stain. The dogglies love it too, dang it ...

[JeffinNZ]

Oh if only we did have beavers.
Beaver Grease is the trade name for my lube. Just seemed like a good name at the time.
My slogan is "Lubes you tube". Not bad ah? ;)

[FAsmus]

I am fairly new to casting-so far handgun only,but I have an Aussie No. 1 MK III that seems to be suitable for my new hobby. I am interested in others experiences in loading for the 303 British-sizing diameters,bullet styles,lubes etc. One more thing - what size gas checks are used for this caliber?

4296,

I have a Mk4No1 ( just purchased recently ) that I'm feeding the old, old Ideal version of 311299 which casts at 0.316 on the body and 0.306 on the nose. I heat-treat the bullets from the mold to cold water and size them to 0.314 before they reach full hardness; I size pretty much right away after casting them. The sizing procedure only affects the surface of the bullet so that I retain almost full alloy strength for purposes of loading/shooting the finished bullets.

I load a light load of SR4759 so far for groups running around 2" at 100 yards. However, I have not solved the problem of the occasional low flyer out of the group. I know they are caused by bedding tension on the upper band but so far have not been able to figure out the correct answer for accuracy in this regard. Perhaps JeffinNZ could tell us how he got his rifle to shoot so well?

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[JeffinNZ]

Hi Forrest.

Well, I don’t claim to be an expert on the subject but I am happy to share my limited experience.

First off I have a couple of advantages in so much as the I understand the Mk2 I own was never issued in service so was MINT (the barrel was and remains crisp) when I got it and it came complete with a Parker Hale PH5C target sight with an adjustable iris which is very dinky.

The work I did on the rifle is as follows:

1) Honed the trigger on all bearing surfaces until they were like mirrors and reduced the travel. Trigger lets go at about 2 ½ lb.
2) Lapped the barrel to smooth out all of the burrs and bumps.
3) Epoxy bedded the action fully from the chamber area of the barrel right back to the rear of the action. I initially bedded the back of the fore end into the receiver ring (it that the right name for the bit the butt screws into?) but freed it up again when the rifle wouldn’t group. Valuable lesson there.
4) Pressure pointed the barrel top and bottom at the mid point where the top woods meet and also the top of the barrel at the muzzle but not the bottom. This was a trial and error job at the range one day where I would try different pressure points, fire a group at 100m, try anther combination, etc. The bottom line with Lee Enfields is they have skinny, whippy barrels and flimsy actions so I like to lock the barrel and action down tight so neither can move around. Mine did not shoot well with a floating barrel!

In terms of loading I use a Lee collet die exclusively. My Mk2 has a chamber as big as a house and I can expand a case neck to 8mm and it will still chamber! As such my brass gets a work out every firing so I neck so only and anneal every 4-5 firings to maintain neck tension. My rifle is very particular about neck tension and if the case necks are not soft it ‘patterns improved cylinder’. I have just started loading a batch of new RP brass and the first firing is a waste of time as the rifle sprays the shots everywhere but once the cases are fire formed all is well again.

My barrel slugs .303 bore and .311 groove so I shoot .312 sized bullets. With the variations in bore/groove dimensions in these rifles you MUST slug your barrel and match the bullet to this. I know of one SMLE with a .309 groove and another with a .315. I use the Lyman Loverin 311466 mould that was opened up the drop bullets at .315 in wheel weight. One of the cavities has been converted to FN and throws a 175 grain bullet and the original cavity throws 160 grain pills. The FN does not feed though so this load is single feed only. Both these bullets like a different seating depth even though they have the same bearing area so OAL is a consideration as it is with any loading.

That’s about all I can think of right now. As I say, I am no expert but this is what works for me in my No4 Mk2.

[FAsmus]

JeffinNZ,

The Mk4 I have may have seen service as the stock and metal parts show dings and wear but the bore remains quite crisp and slugs right at 0.314.

I would be surprized if the action has been out of the wood since the rifle was built in 1944. I have have not yet seen fit to disassemble it myself other than the forend parts, thinking that all that time in the wood would have allowed things to become quite stable as per wood/metal fitting together.

I too have the Parker Hale target sight installed with those little tiny holes. I will drill them out bigger one of these days~

JeffinNZ says he:

1) Honed the trigger on all bearing surfaces until they were like mirrors
and reduced the travel. Trigger lets go at about 2 ½ lb.
2) Lapped the barrel to smooth out all of the burrs and bumps.
3) Epoxy bedded the action fully from the chamber area of the barrel right back to the rear of the action. I initially bedded the back of the fore end into the receiver ring (it that the right name for the bit the butt screws into?) but freed it up again when the rifle wouldn’t group. Valuable lesson there.
4) Pressure pointed the barrel top and bottom at the mid point where the top woods meet and also the top of the barrel at the muzzle but not the bottom. This was a trial and error job at the range one day where I would try different pressure points, fire a group at 100m, try anther combination, etc. The bottom line with Lee Enfields is they have skinny, whippy barrels and flimsy actions so I like to lock the barrel and action down tight so neither can move around. Mine did not shoot well with a floating barrel!

F: OK.

I understand most of these things but need clairification about your use of "Pressure Points" on the barrel at the two points specified.

How did you create these points? What materials were used and how much pressure is used at each one?

I'm thinking my rifle is telling me much the same thing as you have mentioned as per the thin barrel, free to float as it is in "as issued" condition will tend to whip around way too much for good repeat accuracy.

JeffinNZ says:

In terms of loading I use a Lee collet die exclusively. My Mk2 has a chamber as big as a house and I can expand a case neck to 8mm and it will still chamber! As such my brass gets a work out every firing so I neck so only and anneal every 4-5 firings to maintain neck tension. My rifle is very particular about neck tension and if the case necks are not soft it ‘patterns improved cylinder’. I have just started loading a batch of new RP brass and the first firing is a waste of time as the rifle sprays the shots everywhere but once the cases are fire formed all is well again.

F: My rifle, with the semi-standard bore size of 0.314 shoots very, very well with the exception of the lost flyers due to barrel bedding problems.

I have an old Ideal 311299 that casts at 0.3155 with the 0.306 nose. I heat-treat as I cast, size to 0.314 (not having a 0.315 die) and the downrange results are outstanding with a regular 20 grain load of SR4759. (except for the 10 -12% flyers due to bedding) I can and do use the target sight right on out to 830 yards to print inside 2 minutes easily all the way out and back, the sight repeating dead-nuts every time.

I too use the Lee collet dies but my chamber is conventional in that the neck needs only minimal or conventional sizing to accept the next bullet.

JeffinNZ says:

That’s about all I can think of right now. As I say, I am no expert but this is what works for me in my No4 Mk2.

F: Thanks for your post. I hope to read of your pressure points before this coming weekend so I may give this rifle another try with improved techniques. It sure is fun to shoot over the distances .

Good morning,
Forrest

[NVcurmudgeon]

Barrel bedding seeems to be an individual thing. Jeff in NZ has carefullly experimented with pressure points and gotten excellent results. My 1943 Fazakerly No. 4 rifle got off the boat with snug action bedding. The barrel is generously floated at the muzzle; it can be easily moved in any direction by a gentle thumb push. The barrel has at least sheet of typing paper clearance for its full length, except back at the "Knox form," or reinforce shoulder. (I'm not a No. 4 expert, the terminology is from "The Accurate Lee Enfield," by Steve Redgwell of the .303 Page web site. There is a lot of good information at www.303british.com) Anyway, my rifle shot very well with the floating barrel, so I left it undisturbed. I have no trouble shooting to the limitations of the issue sights, guided by geriactric eyes.

[JeffinNZ]

Forrest - for the pressure points I used 1/8 inch felt and this is compressed once the wood work is in place.
As NV says though, each rifle is specific so have a play with the pressure points. You know what those skinny barrels are like. They whip around like a curtain in a hurricane.