SHOT Show Conversation > Powder Coating

[ricklaut]

Just a drive by to mention an interesting conversation I had today at SHOT Show with one of the reps at the Lyman booth.

After I asked "what's new", she talked a bit about their bottom pour melting pot they hope to release in the future... I mentioned powder coating to her and pointed out that as a boolit caster, my Lyman lube sizer was obsolete. She looked at me like I had 2 heads for a moment, and then started asking questions (leading? lead hardness? residue? tools required? etc). I gave her a high level overview of how I do powder coating, and the benefits I've seen, then pointed her here for more info. She (unfortunately I didn't catch her name) was definitely intrigued, and I expect her to drop by here to read up on all of the R&D that's gone into coating :).

[TheDoctor]

I would like to think that a company that makes reloading and casting tools would at least have someone that browses the worlds premiere casting forum! But, I know where my thinking has been way wrong before.

[Sgtonory]

Good for you. Would maybe love to see something related to PC from a reloading supplyer.

[Russel Nash]

You should have mentioned that it would be nice if:

A. They made a hollow point mould like Mihec's

B. That with powder coating there is no longer a need for a lube groove

You should tell us more about your SHOT show trip.

[leadman]

I have found in talking with people in the gun industry many do not stay current on developments done outside the manufacturers.
I mentioned this forum to a guy at Hodgdon Powder and he went off on a rant about how everything on the internet is a untrue and everyone lies to make themselves more important. I mentioned the Hi-Tek coating and said it is a fad just like moly coating and would not work or last long. I mentioned that Bayou, Gateway, and SNS are all using the coating and he just made a "humpf" sound.
A guy was supposed to call me from RCBS about a pid for their pot but that never happened either.
Andy Lee at Lee Precision does listen and will discuss a problem or idea as well as anyone here.

It is good the lady was interested enough to get some info from you.

[smokesahoy]

for many its just the 9-5. they have other hobbies.

whats cool about this place is most people think of their hobby much more than they think about their job. much better knowledge.

[ricklaut]

@The Doctor: That's the same thing that went through my mind. Many companies don't really know how to innovate; it's probably easy to think "what can change with cast boolits..." :)

@Russel: I may get a chance to circle back there today; I'll bring those back up if I do. I'll try to remember to take her a few of my PC boolits too. I wish Lee was at SHOT - apparently they don't go. I'll try to circle back with more SHOT info here; I'm mostly over in the swaging sub-forum.

@leadman: COMPLETELY agree, and I've seen the same things. I took an idea to RCBS yesterday for a friend of mine. He was intrigued, but we'll see where it goes. This wasn't the first time they've heard it, it addresses a common complaint and it's not difficult or expensive. We'll see.

@smokesahoy: Absolutely!

[popper]

A special tumbler? Rebranded ES gun? Cast boolits is not in Hornady's line. Don't think the big box mould makers will have grooveless moulds for a long time. Not enough market plus any testing is not in the books. I do expect more commercial casters to pick it up. Just too easy to do plus sell them as cast, coated, buyer does the sizing. QC on rifle boolits will be a little tougher. Then there is the Ca. problem.

[Ken73]

And to think I was right across the street from the SHOT show all week at a company function. Wish I could have gone!

I suspect Lee could stand to profit the most - as their sizer dies are ideal for this (not to mention cheap!) I would think they could make changes as a smaller company easier than a larger company, too.

In my business, the people that scoff at new ideas are the ones that typically wind up in the news for all the wrong reasons.

[Love Life]

Was she good looking?

[Artful]

Was she good looking?
Aren't they all -
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Red-Carpet.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Cutie.jpg
http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2013/01/boothbabes1-440x270.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Pink.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Russians.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Lots-of-Girls.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Spanish.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Sexy-Gals.jpg
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Bombshell.jpg

Well maybe not all my type
http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/screen-shot-2014-01-13-at-10-48-22-am.png%3Fw%3D810%26h%3D555%26crop%3D1

[btroj]

Having a person spend time looking at web sites like this is an expense for a company. The potential for finding an innovation that generates enough income to be worth while is pretty small.

We need to remember that this site is a very small portion of all casters and only a small portion the people here powder coat.

Just because you like a specific item/method doesn't mean it appeals to a large enough segment of the overall shooting world to justify the RD expense.

[Maximumbob54]

I can't believe corporate types don't monitor boards. It's a source of free reviews, R&D, advertising, and everything else they would want. It's hard to believe at this point they would be oblivious to bullet coatings. I can see how one rep might be missing this but surely they have meetings to keep up to date with what the customer is up to. And if all this is false then dang it they should be doing these things.

[fcvan]

When the industry sees that dry tumble coating is cheaper than barrel electroplating we might see 22lr become cheaper. The guy who automates the tumble, shake, and bake for 22lr and pistol boolits will be a happy guy. He's that guy that bought a used pizza oven and spends his nights like a mad scientist in his laboratory. Bwahahaha!

[fcvan]

Okay, he's actually using an IR heater and a conveyor driven by a rotisserie motor. And he's not that mad, he's a happy scientist :)

[btroj]

I can't believe corporate types don't monitor boards. It's a source of free reviews, R&D, advertising, and everything else they would want. It's hard to believe at this point they would be oblivious to bullet coatings. I can see how one rep might be missing this but surely they have meetings to keep up to date with what the customer is up to. And if all this is false then dang it they should be doing these things.

No, it is an expense. In case nobody noticed companies right now are downsizing heavily. Payroll is the single largest expense for most businesses so this is an area that would be cut.

Lyman doesn't change much of anything these days, what makes you think they are listening to anyone?

I don't think the latest, greatest idea in anything is on the radar at these companies.

[DRNurse1]

The big guys seem to prefer letting the little guy do the R&D, deal with the multiple failures, then buy the rights to the one that finally works. At least that seems to be the general theme. Keep it up, little guys, you are the innovators.

[dragon813gt]

I can't believe corporate types don't monitor boards. It's a source of free reviews, R&D, advertising, and everything else they would want. It's hard to believe at this point they would be oblivious to bullet coatings.
Why is it hard to believe. I'm a member here and while I know about it. I don't care about it right now. It's a simple numbers game. Most reloaders buy jacketed bullets. Most people that shoot cast bullets buy them. Only a small percentage cast their own. And a very very small percentage that cast their own know about powder coating. People seem to forget it's a large world out there and most people don't share the same interests as you.

[dverna]

This is the land of opportunity. If it is such a great idea, start a company. What would you (or Lyman) do that is not being done?

Would you develop a better gun than the $60 HF PC gun and sell it for $150? Better ovens than we can buy at Wally World? $10 powders that are better than $5 powders? Trays? Spray booths?

So far, only Hi-Tek has made inroads in the commercial coated cast bullet market. But, as far as I know, none of the big US commercial casters have changed to it. This is something that has worked for (reportedly) 20 years in Australia and only a handful of companies are on board here in the US. Hi-Tek has some sales to home casters but I doubt they have more than 1000 customers in the US. Is it really worth the effort to deal with so few? With one liter of the stuff covering thousands of bullets, it is small market for them - or anyone else. What is the market for PC?

Here is a perfect example. Frozone builds PID's. A useful product. Lyman could do it easily but they do not think the market is large enough. Frozone fills the niche. He has a good product that works very well. If he was selling 500 a month, Lyman may be interested but he would be out of business. Not because his product is inferior, but because he cannot deal with the demand unless he starts a company; and when the volume is there, Lyman will have them made in China and undercut him by 25% or more.

Don Verna

[Maximumbob54]

You guys have seen the soon to be released Lyman Mag 25, right???

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mag25furnace.php

It would seem to me that someone out there is watching and listening. Now let Lee make one and it's game on.

It wouldn't shock me to find PC'ed bullets on the shelf at some point. The big boys could surely set up some good automation to do it better than you would think possible. And remember that it's only recently that ranges are starting to frown on exposed lead bullets. Plated isn't such an old product and they have already gone mainstream. Even the big names have been using them. I know Federal uses the heck out of them. Let them find out PC'ing costs less and then poof here they come.

[dragon813gt]

You guys have seen the soon to be released Lyman Mag 25, right???
You mean the one that was supposed to be released at least a year ago but hasn't shown up on the shelves yet. People have cancelled their orders because it's taken so long. And I have an idea of why they aren't released yet, heat. Having the electronics of the PID that close to a lead pot is not conducive to a long life.

[dverna]

Maximium,

The Australian commercial casters are reportedly using Hi-Tek for pistol ammo and it works very well. The time required for two or three coat/bake cycles is outweighed by the pain of standing up bullets for PC coat/bake. The Aussies are not dumb. If they could save money and get an equal (or better?) product with PC they would do it.

Anything can be done if someone spends enough money. But commercial casters can use low tech cement mixers to coat with Hi-Tek and spread bullets on a tray to cure the coating. No standing up bullets to coat and keeping them erect and separated to bake!

Unless PC does something for pistol bullets that Hi-Tek does not do, I think Hi-Tech will own the coated pistol bullet market. But even there, Hi-Tek affects productivity. instead of running bullets once through an automated Star/Magna, there is the added time and expense of coating and baking. Will the bulk of the market pay a slight premium for bullets that work easily in automatic bullet feeders and that do not smoke? Not likely unless it is forced to. Bayou sells Hi-Tek 180 gr .40 cal for $95/1000, compared to lubed bullets (Dardas) for $74/1000. Berry sells copper coated bullets .38 bullets for $114 and lubed for $87. Where will PC'ed bullets fall? That is the question.

I think PC will remain a home made endeavor for a long time. Anyone who wants shinny coated bullets can buy Berry bullets for a premium of about 30%. Or, if just a coated bullet is desired, for a 20% premium for Hi-Tek. And so far the market is not making a huge exodus to coated bullets.

For many shooters, cost is the driving force. Coated bullets will "take off" when more and more indoor ranges prohibit exposed lead bullets.

[Maximumbob54]

I can only argue my point so much if minds are already made up in the first place. If Lyman did botch their R/D on the Mag 25 then so be it but I doubt they are dropping it. Either way it still shows they are listening to what the caster wants even with casting being a still niche market. As for the PC upcharge, I don't know what to say. I know others and myself find it compelling enough that we are still doing it. As soon as I figured out how to do it I was shocked at how easy it is.

[btroj]

Lyman is way late in delivering the new pot. At this point they have lost a fair number of sales.

Powder coating won't get any real attention from Lyman until many commercial forms a re selling powder coated bullets. I figure that in 10 years it may happen, if powder coating ever gets use in commercial cast.

The reality is that powder coating is being used by very few casters even amongst members of this site and we are less than 1 percent of all casters. Not much money to be made there....

[Love Life]

I canceled my lyman pot order.

[silverjay]

Lyman did not have their new pot at the show. I asked them about it and thy said it missed the shipment with the other samples. They had no idea when they might ship. Also changed the subject really fast.

[btroj]

And that speaks volumes.....

[dragon813gt]

That's because they can't get it to last. It's an obvious design flaw. While it looks nice w/everything in one package. It's not where you want a PID. We have issues w/ UV sensors on burners not lasting long. And they're not sensitive electronics like a PID.

[prickett]

The reality is that powder coating is being used by very few casters even amongst members of this site and we are less than 1 percent of all casters. Not much money to be made there....

That may be due in part to it being a very recent "discovery" as an alternative to traditional lubing.

[Maximumbob54]

That may be due in part to it being a very recent "discovery" as an alternative to traditional lubing.

BING!!! We have a winner!!! But I think that is changing day by day at this point.

[runfiverun]

jeez you'd think lyman would be all over the powder coat thing,,,,,, they already make their molds the perfect size for a .002 coating.
just the return, and re-work time alone would save them thousands.

[popper]

R5R - that is a jab?

[dverna]

When I look at the PC process I see something that will be very difficult to commercialize. Having to stand up bullets for coating and keeping them that way to bake will not be easy. That is why I believe Hi-Tek will take over the commercial coated market.

Some of you do not factor in the time to do things. For you, it is a "labor of love" and time is irrelevant. But in business, time is money. Commercial casters are not going to invest in the capital equipment needed to PC thousands of bullets per hour when Hi-Tek uses Low-Tech production methods that work. PC is poised to be strictly a home process. it does not stand much of a chance against Hi-Tek. If the big boys are monitoring this site, they have come to the same conclusion. You may think they are all stupid - but you are incorrect.

None of the "big boys" will be interested in developing PC equipment for a home cast bullet market that will need to compete with $60 HF guns, $5 powder and Wally World ovens. Not only is there almost no market volume - there is no profit margin. Again, they are not stupid.

Look at the current threads. We have thousands of members and I doubt more than 50 are PC'ing. I am one of those "lurkers" who is waiting to see if PC'ing is worth the effort. For me, it comes down to achieving jacketed accuracy (or close to it) at rifle velocities. How "Purdy" the bullets look is of little consequence. There are hundreds of posts of "prudy" bullets and the accompanying "back slapping" that make it appear coatings are a big deal. It is not.

In some ways it is like the Extreme Lube thread but with a much less meaningful work. We see a few handfuls of interested parties growing threads to over 100 pages. Do not misinterpret. This is not a condemnation. It is meant to demonstrated just how small the market is.

I have followed the major threads and my interest is high. But the question remains, "Where's the beef?"

Don Verna

[runfiverun]

popper: not at powder coating.
more an observation on lyman molds as of late.

[btroj]

Dang it Don, you can't go bringing in reason and logic to an emotional discussion.

I agree entirely on the powder coating, too hands on to be commercially viable. Hi-Tek has been proven, in Oz, to be commercially viable.

Lyman won't get into this unless they see a huge market. A handful of guys here isn't gonna even be worth talking to.

[Oreo]

I 99% agree with Don. 1% I see the possibility for someone to figure out how to mechanize and automate the whole pc process. In that case a small-medium sized bullet manufacturer that already specializes in cast lead boolits could expand their product line. That's as far as I see this going.

[sdcitizen]

Couldn't something like a bullet collator on a press be used to drop bullets nose up on a conveyor belt being fed through a continuous spray booth with an oven immediately following that? I've seen the spray booths and ovens that work continuously for powdercoating. There is a manufacturer here in town that does that, though most of what they powdercoat hangs from and overhead tracks. The wheels are turnin....

[dverna]

Thanks guys,

I admit it irks me when people make comments that insinuate upper management and senior executives do not care about their business, do not make an effort to stay current, do not look at ways to increase market share, do not look for new markets, or are too dumb to seize an "obvious" opportunity. You see, I was one of those guys for many years and I worked in manufacturing. I got to know a lot of my competitors; and they were just as committed to the business as I was, and they were just as talented.

I was in a different business, but it is a safe bet that Lyman, RCBS, etc view and handle their business not much differently than I (and my competitors) did. In the end, you need to make a profit and, if possible, an "obscene" profit - at least until the competition catches up or the patents expire.

I just finished a pissing contest on the Simple Hi-Tek thread that I should never have gotten into. (Damn cabin fever!!! - that is my excuse anyway). I have been accused of being unfair when I was hammering home the facts. Facts they do not want to hear. AND I BELIEVE THEY HAVE A GOOD PRODUCT!!! GRRRR!! I wonder if the solvents have affected them - LOL.

It is zero this morning. I have two new Lee molds (yes, I am going to try the cheap stuff), a new Lyman, a new NOE, and two new MiHec's to play with when the weather improves. Then, I will have less time to spend on this site and have more fun making bullets and testing loads. I have 20 sticks of Lars 2500+ and Red to test - no PC for me - yet. Waiting for the "2 MOA at 1800 fps+" thread in the Coatings sub-forum to show more success stories (two so far).

Don Verna

[Love Life]

What pissing contest? I love a good poo flinging session!!

[btroj]

What pissing contest? I love a good poo flinging session!!

It wasn't very good. Way too few personal attacks or belittling remarks. Yawn

[Ausglock]

I wasn't even warmed up...

[dverna]

It wasn't very good. Way too few personal attacks or belittling remarks. Yawn

I try not to stoop to personal attacks. Facts are facts. A lot more effective but less drama for the bystanders. And it gets people worked up when you do that. They start throwing all sorts of poop on the wall hoping it will stick. Like watching a drowning man grasping at straws.

Plus getting banned is not a good thing. I don't need Goodsteel "reading me my rights" like he did with those guys on the RPM/long distance ballistics thread. Far, better to see the guys with post counts like zip codes flail about.

So btroj, throw that ridiculously large hat in the ring and stir things up.!!!! Cabin fever is getting to most of us and a little spice and excitement at your expense would be most enjoyable and welcomed - LOL.

Hey Ausglock. Please get "warmed up". Please, please, please? Tell us why "pizzing around with cast rifle bullets" is a waste of time. You can skate with that over on the Hi-Tek thread with your circle of solvent sniffers, but them there's fighting words with the big dogs on the site and you will get a good whoop'n. (See how staying with the facts is so much fun?!) BTW Just joking - about you guys being solvent sniffers. I use the term with a degree of endearment.

Don Verna

PS - Love Life - happy now?

[btroj]

I, like you, prefer to avoid the banning!

I am using Hi-Tek for handguns and am reasonably happy so far. I don't know that coatings are going to be what I want on rifles. Time will tell on that but I don't have high hopes.

I think I will need to see results on my own targets or results from what I consider a reliable source regarding decent accuracy with coatings in a rifle.

[dragon813gt]

So is the current situation that the coatings work for handguns but not for rifles? I'm not reading all the threads. Just want to have an idea of what's going on.

[Beagle333]

I love PC any way I do it, but I'm definitely going to try out Hi-Tek when they quit bogarting that new green color. [smilie=1:

[dverna]

So is the current situation that the coatings work for handguns but not for rifles? I'm not reading all the threads. Just want to have an idea of what's going on.

Dragon,

You need to define "work". Some define it as "bullets do not lead". Using this definition, all the coatings appear to work at rifle velocities up to 2500 fps and a few reports of 3000 fps

I define it as "it needs to be accurate too". So far, only two decent results at rifle velocities, and only with PC'ing.

I think there has only been one Ransom Rest test for pistol accuracy but all the coatings work well wrt no leading, no "goop" on the dies and no "smoking" at pistol velocities.

That is the "Cliff's Notes" version.

Don Verna

PS: I understand the reluctance to reading hundreds of pages of threads with so little data/information. There is a thread I started "Real Accuracy (2 moa or less) with Coated Rifle Bullets at 1800 fps or greater." that attempts to highlight "success stories" but it is getting bogged down as well - but still manageable. Four pages and 2 good reports. Not very promising at this point. The dam will break when the weather improves and a better answer is a few months away. I have considered requesting Moderator access to the above thread only to clean it up and make it more succinct but I am not sure that is allowed.

[runfiverun]

Don,,that might be doable you'd have to talk to ken. wiljen ,or willie about it though.
they/us/we might have to move the thread back and forth into the VS section, and back again, or something like that to make it happen

[Love Life]

Sort of happy...

I don't post results anymore because it's a waste of time and effort.

[dverna]

Don,,that might be doable you'd have to talk to ken. wiljen ,or willie about it though.
they/us/we might have to move the thread back and forth into the VS section, and back again, or something like that to make it happen

r5r

If it can be done without too much hassle I am willing to "trim the fat" on the thread. So far, it is not too bad so let's let it run a while longer. Once it gets to about 8 pages or so, I will make the request. I know there is a fine line to tread and I do not wish to heavy handed. I hate deleting anyone else's posts but some have little value (including some of mine). The objective is to have something that is both a living document, informative and easy to digest. We cannot expect people to wade through 100+ pages of stuff like some of these threads have grow to in order to find the few kernels of wisdom.

And I do not wish to make it a burden on the moderators either. I do not want you guys doing handstands so I can edit the thing every couple of weeks.


Love Life,
If you have any good results, it would be helpful if you would share them. There is a huge appitite for data on coated bullets. Hopefully you will reconsider.

Don Verna

[Love Life]

The threads got too combative and I got tired of trying to contribute anything of value for posterity.

I wanted answers so I jumped in. I got tired of always being critiqued by sideline players. I played with PC, Piglet, and HI-TEK and the combativeness was on all of the threads. The funny thing was all the combativeness was based off of speculation by people who had no irons in the fire.

Powder, primers, boolits, and time all equal money. I got tired of expending my resources to answer the questions of others who were not willing to do the same.

According to the bench warmers, at the end of ANY test either the test wasn't good enough, the accuracy description wasn't good enough, the boolits, coating, blah, blah, blah wasn't good enough. So I got tired of trying.

Additionally I got tired of doing free R&D for a coating manufacturer as well.

A lot is asked by many, and what is given by few is looked down upon and nitpicked with no tangible help given.

Would you want to contribute anything in that environment?

[Ausglock]

Love Life. You are spot on. there are too many sideline players, armchair commandos etc etc that do not coat, but want to bitch and moan about all the types of coatings.
I say to them " either pizz or get off the pot"
Don. you come across as a commercial lubed bullet manufacturer or a jacketed bullet manufacturer that is trying to protect your business by bad mouthing the coatings.
How about telling us what your vested interest is, considering you have stated many times that "you don't have a horse in this race"
You insinuate that the coating that has in fact been used for over 20 years in OZ is no good. Why not come down to OZ and talk to the shooters that have been using it for over 20 years. It was designed for handgun bullets. It works fine for it's intended purpose. Oz has a very small population compared to the USA. this translates to the shooting sports too. OZ rifles shooters preffer to use jacketed bullets.
Commercial bullet makers that use HI-TEK that I know of:
Topscore projectiles
Hawksbury River Bullet Company
Vindicator bullets
Ray Gray bullets
Redback projectiles
Bullzi Bullets
The Bullet Factory
Spartan Bullets
Westcastings
Susan Island Bullets
Black widow Bullets.
These are the ones that I have used in over 20 years of handgun shooting.
So. The coating has and is working to the parameters it was intended for.
To whinge about it not preforming in a situation it was not designed for is just poor form on your part.

If powder coating is working for higher velocity rifle loads, Then that is a bloody good thing. I will be playing with both coatings later this year when I get my Rem700 in 300BLK and start casting and coating for it.
Thanks to all.

[Oreo]

Erbody gotta go getting their panties in a bunch.

[Love Life]

It's the American way!!

[dverna]

Ausglock,

I have never been anything but clear.

Hi-Tek is an excellent product at pistol velocities. (And I recommend it - see some of my posts!)
PC is an excellent product at pistol velocities. (A pain to do in large quantities)

Hi-Tek has been unable to produce one decent group at rifle velocities = failure
PC has had some limited success at rifle velocities = not very promising

These are the facts as of this instant in time and my conclusions.

I am not a commercial caster or J bullet manufacturer. My interest is rifle velocity projectiles achieving at least 1.5" groups for 10 shots. Something that traditional lubes can do.

It is disturbing when I read reports from Hi-Tek of no leading at xxxxfps and then learn (upon further questioning) the product is shooting patterns - not groups. I wish Hi-Tek would stop reporting half the story, but it keeps happening.

If someone posts data that does not have the all the facts, I am critical. Because, it is so basic to report gun used, caliber, range, load used and/or chrony data and/or estimated velocity (some people will not post load data - liability issues), bullet used, sized dia., lube used, number of shots, group size, and number of groups. And when much of that information are not there, I question the test report. I understand Hi-Tek is not a shooter but, by now, he should have leaned what is needed for a useful report. He should expect to be challenged on data that is suspect and/or misleading.

BTW, listing a bunch of Aussie pistol bullet casting companies does nothing - it is not new news. It is a lame attempt to cloud the question. "Does it work at rifle velocities". And that sir, has been my question, and the question of many people "pizzing around" with cast rifle bullets.

Hope that is clear enough,

Don Verna

[Love Life]

I am with Don, and ultimately he wants the facts of accuracy. I do not believe he is a shill for any company. Unfortunately, unless I can get a ransom rest my tests are worthless, as are others for the most part.

I'm not good with a pistol. I have nerve damage that hinders things so I honestly can't say how truly accurate my pistol bullets are with HT, but I can say MY accuracy has not changed between coated and wax lubed.

I have applied the scientific method to many aspects of coated boolits. From the casting to the coating to the baking and to the shooting. I have had great success and tangible information has been gleaned with everything but the accuracy part.

I am the limiting factor there, so my tests are accomplishing nothing for anybody but me.

I've said it before that HI-TEK needs to get his coated boolits into the hands of somebody who can do extensive ransom testing.

Don is right. What good is no leading if the ransom shows true accuracy is not up to snuff?

[Ausglock]

But you are still missing the point.
The point is it is not designed for rifle loads.
Why try to make a silk purse from a sow's ear?

[Love Life]

^^^Correct.

I reckoned that was the case when I first started playing with the stuff.

[dverna]

"I do not believe he is a shill for any company." _ Thanks Love Life

Google Donald Verna - the info on Linkedin is out of date as I have been retired since 2012. My address has changed since I moved last year to northern MI. I have used my real name since joining the forum in 2009. No games. Nothing to hide.

Ausglock wrote: "But you are still missing the point.
The point is it is not designed for rifle loads."

So, after all this circle jerking, you state it is not designed for rifle loads! But it claims to be good for 5.56 velocities (Gateway Bullet site)!! I give up.

I truly regret this thread has been completely hijacked. But enough.

Don Verna

[Love Life]

To me, none of the coatings have allowed us to achieve true jacketed performance in rifles. I'm talking full snort loads that are sub-moa in multiple rifles with minimal development. Traditionally lubed boolits haven't even achieved that status.

When I can coat X bullets, and load them sub-moa by just adding powder, primer, etc, at full jacketed velocities, stuff them in X rifle, and shoot sub-moa, then we will have achieved TRUE jacketed performance.

When cast boolits (coated or traditional lubed) act like a Match King or Berger Hybrid, then somebody can claim true jacketed performance.

2/3 speed of jacketed, but with same accuracy does not count as TRUE jacketed performance.

[Ausglock]

Bingo... we have a winner.
If you want jacketed performance with full power high velocity bullets, use jacketed.

Gateway is not the coating manufacturer. he is an End user. He may have personal info re 5.56 velocities.

Don. if you like, Send me some of your cast, unsized bullets. I'll coat them in the best coating that I am currently using for 357 and 44 mag loads doing 1800 to 2270fps. these are really light bullets.
That way, I can supply all the data for the coating process and you can then do your own data collection at your end.
Sounds like a plan?
If you want to Pm me and we can sort it out.
Thanks.

[Gateway Bullets]

Don,

I still think you're missing the point. On my site, I state the following

This product allows use of cast lead bullets in both pistol and rifle velocities without leading of your barrel. Shooters have been reporting usage of the coating at .223-5.56 velocities. We recommend if you are using our lead cast bullets or purchasing our coating for use in any pistol or rifle application, you should start with the lowest possible load and gradually work your load to the desired velocity or pressure, and check for leading after each shot.

I state nothing about accuracy and I state only that is stops leading. I have talked to shooters that have used it at 223-5.56. What's the velocity of lead 223? 2300-2500 fps

I SAY NOTHING ABOUT ACCURACY! HI-TEK IS A PISTOL LUBE THAT SOME HAVE TRIED IN RIFLES!

[popper]

I buy lead, cast, coat & shoot. I don't buy commercial anymore. It works for me, if it didn't I move on to something else. If a commercial outfit can make Twinkies, they can make coated bullets, it's not rocket science + I DON'T CARE. Next chore is to design a rifle bullet for coating and see how fast I can push it (accurately) without a check. If I can get MOA @ 2000 fps, I'm happy.

[dverna]

Thanks Ausglock!! PM sent.

Look forward to working with you.

Don Verna

[Maximumbob54]

Funny how threads where people are doing something new always tend to bring out detractors that don't seem to be able to spend the time to give it a try. And then it's even more funny when there has to be that one or two chosen few that just have to make the most amount of noise they can to decry that new thing as being pointless when there are enough already posting positive results. But you know what... IT doesn't bother me because I'm pretty pleased at this point with how easy it is to tumble some bullets in powder, pour them into a tray for baking, and if needed repeat the process again. With such little hands on time needed it frees me up from the bench. Any yes all the pistol testing is coming along quite well. I admit to slacking on the rifle testing as it seems most of my bullet molds for rifle bullets are ill suited for accuracy testing that people want to see. I doubt anyone wants to see how well a Marlin can be made to shoot when people demand bolt action benchrest quality testing to be done.

[btroj]

I haven't tried powder coating and probably never will. For handgun use I find the Hi-Tek coating to be very satisfactory.
I don't want to deal with a coating system that requires standing each bullet up and then handling the tray gently. Just doesn't for my style.

Using your logic it is amazing to some of us with many decades of experience that every year some small group comes along with the latest, greatest whatever who is going to teach all of us fogies how it is done.

I never said powder coating wasn't viable, I said it wasn't something I foresee being a money maker for a company like Lyman. That opinion has not changed. There just isn't a big enough market for powder coating and what market there is can be supplied easily by existing companies like Harbor Freight. If you think Lyman can undercut HF on cost then you are delusional. How many here will spend twice the money for a Lyman PC gun when they can get one from HF?

Again, just because a group of people is using a system doesn't make it commercially viable. Ever wonder why an American company doesn't make a 2 part system like Hi-Tek? Maybe it has to do with a lack of a large enough market to justify the RD expense.

[Hang Fire]

for many its just the 9-5. they have other hobbies.

whats cool about this place is most people think of their hobby much more than they think about their job. much better knowledge.

They do it for it's their job.

We do because we are amateurs (French amateur "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin amatorem nom. amator, "lover") and many of us love the casting game.

[wrinkles]

I haven't tried powder coating and probably never will. For handgun use I find the Hi-Tek coating to be very satisfactory.
I don't want to deal with a coating system that requires standing each bullet up and then handling the tray gently. Just doesn't for my style.

Using your logic it is amazing to some of us with many decades of experience that every year some small group comes along with the latest, greatest whatever who is going to teach all of us fogies how it is done.

I never said powder coating wasn't viable, I said it wasn't something I foresee being a money maker for a company like Lyman. That opinion has not changed. There just isn't a big enough market for powder coating and what market there is can be supplied easily by existing companies like Harbor Freight. If you think Lyman can undercut HF on cost then you are delusional. How many here will spend twice the money for a Lyman PC gun when they can get one from HF?

Again, just because a group of people is using a system doesn't make it commercially viable. Ever wonder why an American company doesn't make a 2 part system like Hi-Tek? Maybe it has to do with a lack of a large enough market to justify the RD expense.

I keep seeing this comment but it's not actually true. I PC my bullets and just drop them on a wire mesh to bake, no standing up. Pretty much like HiTeck spread on wire mesh and bake repeat and done.

[Maximumbob54]

I keep seeing this comment but it's not actually true. I PC my bullets and just drop them on a wire mesh to bake, no standing up. Pretty much like HiTeck spread on wire mesh and bake repeat and done.

Thank you. I hope you said it better than I did.

[btroj]

I keep seeing this comment but it's not actually true. I PC my bullets and just drop them on a wire mesh to bake, no standing up. Pretty much like HiTeck spread on wire mesh and bake repeat and done.

So you are using a solvent and tumbling them? Not using a powder coat gun?

[wrinkles]

Correct. Powder coat with a solvent, tumble for a min or so solvent evaporates and leave a powder coating on bullet which is then baked.

[btroj]

Then what, exactly, is a company like Lyman supposed to sell? Powder when it is 5 to 10 bucks a pound? Ovens?

The OP was about Lyman not seeming interested in making a similar product. What are they supposed to market?

[wrinkles]

My response was to your comment about having to stand the bullet up etc...
As to what they want to market that would be something that Lyman would have to think up.
Off the top of my head, tumbler, ovens, an improved method of suspending the PC in a solvent, there is also a technique that is used where the PC is added to a tumbler and the bullet are tumbled dry, no suspension liquid, again a special tumbler, bulllet molds without the lubing groves, etc...

[xacex]

Then what, exactly, is a company like Lyman supposed to sell? Powder when it is 5 to 10 bucks a pound? Ovens?

The OP was about Lyman not seeming interested in making a similar product. What are they supposed to market?

Molds without lube grooves? They seem to have the undersized boolit mold thing down for P/C already.

[Beagle333]

Yes, thanks to PC, it is easier to make use all of those "U" stamped molds that are out there! :-D

[btroj]

Ok, let me get this straight.

Powder coating can be applied by PC gun, dry tumbling, tumbling with a solvent. The tumbling can be in a rotary tumbler, vibratory tumbler, or in a simple bucket.

Powder used can be any one of dozens of colors.

Ovens are generally purchased used or are inexpensive to purchase at Walmart.


How, precisely, is Lyman going to make money on this? Supporting a coating method that is actually a bunch of methods? Competing with Harbor Freight on powder and PC guns? Heck, they make vibratory tumblers already.

You guys obviously have no business sense. Just because YOU want it doesn't mean it is financially sound.

[Love Life]

The most important question in this thread was post number 10...

[Beagle333]

At this point..... ^^^^ AGREED!!!!

[btroj]

The most important question in this thread was post number 10...


Well?

[wrinkles]

Ok, let me get this straight.

Powder coating can be applied by PC gun, dry tumbling, tumbling with a solvent. The tumbling can be in a rotary tumbler, vibratory tumbler, or in a simple bucket.

Powder used can be any one of dozens of colors.

Ovens are generally purchased used or are inexpensive to purchase at Walmart.


How, precisely, is Lyman going to make money on this? Supporting a coating method that is actually a bunch of methods? Competing with Harbor Freight on powder and PC guns? Heck, they make vibratory tumblers already.

You guys obviously have no business sense. Just because YOU want it doesn't mean it is financially sound.

So basically since it's not HiTech, which you seem to promote very well, it's not worth your idea of Lyman's time.

[btroj]

Am I saying hi-Tek coating needs to be made, or duplicates, by Lyman? Nope. Current source is fine, not worth the cost for Lyman to develop/mimic.


It isn't worth Lyman's time because it isn't worth their time! It won't generate enough income to justify the R&D costs, marketing costs, productions costs, etc.

The PC market is a small fraction of this board which is a small fraction of casters.

Lyman needs to generate tens of thousands of dollars in NET income from this, they would be lucky to get thousands in SALES!

Basic economics guys. Business is in business to make money, not provide services on a whim from some customers.

When you guys show me a number of commercial casters who use PC or reviews in a magazine I might buy it. I don't see that.

Hi-Tek is here because it came from OZ. It sounds like it is widely used there. It was probably developed by a coatings guy who happened to be a shooter. Small scale business targeted to a small crowd. That business model works well for stuff like this.

If it is such a great business opportunity why don't some of you guys jump in and get rich?

[WILDEBILL308]

Lots of good ideas in this thread. The biggest problem facing the big manufactures right now is they are running production 24-7 and cant keep up with demand. I talked to Hornadey, Nosler and Speer at Dallas Safari Club show the first part of this month. All said it was going to be a while before they got caught up. They may think something is a good idea but don’t have the capacity or inclination to implement it right now. I don't think any one will be ofering coated vers plated bullets any time soon.
Bill

[dverna]

Bringing "business sense" into a discussion is downright rude. Btroj, if your intent is to bash the beliefs and principles of unions and Democrats you are on a slippery slope. PC'ing bullets is a "shovel ready" business. No one can dispute the benefits and it is so simple to do. Heck man, we already have the technology!!! Bullets can be coated wet, dry or electrostatically!!! Each method needs only a bit of research become a commercial success.

You are a Republican troll making excuses for the stupidity and laziness of corporate America. The companies that used to support shooters and casters are only concerned about making easy money selling the same old technology we used 50 years ago. Dumb dinosaurs!. Anyone with half a brain sees the potential and opportunity. Look at the posts and judge for yourself.

Disgusting!

Don Verna

[Love Life]

I thought sarcasm was supposed to be green?

[btroj]

Your hat must be too tight....

[Oreo]

You're a rookie dverna. You don't understand how its really done.

I'm going to make a solar wind powered powder coating gun, patent the technology so as to ensure I have a monopoly, and then lobby congress to ban and/or regulate all other methods of powder coating as hazardous to health and environment. Then I will develop a powder that can be encoded with a unique identifier number for each boolit. I will of course patent that also and lobby Obama to mandate by executive order that all boolits must now be manufactured with my patented powder coat system. As soon as I have received the government grant money to take my inventions into production I will sell the patent rights, hide the money off-shore, and declare bankruptcy. Screw the Democrats, the Republicans, and the citizens because I'm striking it rich crony-capitalist style!

[Ausglock]

And I, my northern hemisphere friends, shall continue to coat with good Old Aussie made HI-TEK Supercoat.
Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi.

[Maximumbob54]

Lyman doesn't need to make molds because Lee makes them cheaper. They also don't need to make furnaces because once again Lee makes them cheaper. And then they don't need to make reloading gear because guess what... Lee makes them cheaper. And then there is all the new ultrasonic cleaning stuff. Yep, I can walk into the nearest Harbor freight and buy that. And HF sells a far cheaper media tumbler that works just as well as the Lyman orange stuff. Go figure.

And yet Lyman is still around all these years later still making stuff.

[dragon813gt]

And then there is all the new ultrasonic cleaning stuff. Yep, I can walk into the nearest Harbor freight and buy that.

You most certainly can. And in this case it's the exact same unit for less money. You just don't get a basket with it. I get your points about competitng products at lower prices. But do you honestly think there is anyway for Lyman to make money w/ powdercoating? Why would I go to a reloading company for those products? If I was going to spend good money on the tools I would buy a well respected brand name from the automotive industry that has been producing them for decades. And let's say Lyman does put together a kit. I will bet money that you get the same tools you would if you went to Harbor Freight. At a premium price of course. That precedent has been set w/ the ultrasonic cleaner.

[Maximumbob54]

For the same reason anyone buys brand name anything.

[Beagle333]

I like name brand Ketchup. Other than that, I'm pretty much happy with generic. I'm still waiting for WalMart to come out with "Great Value" brand pickup trucks, but I'll buy one from HF or Lyman if the price is right. 8-)


'sorry, I may be close to treading on the edge of :hijack:, if that's possible.

[btroj]

For the same reason anyone buys brand name anything.


How many here will pay 20 bucks a pound for Lyman powder instead of getting powder from HF or online for half the cost?

If this is such a great idea then start up a business! Get rich!

[Oreo]

Uh, is this powder guaranteed to be non-abrasive to rifled barrels? Specially formulated for better adhesion to lead? Might be worth the higher price.

[btroj]

Someone will have to do that testing, won't they? Now that won't be cheap.......

[dragon813gt]

Something tells me Lyman would not be making it themselves. It would just be rebranded powder at a higher cost. So why not buy from the real manufacturer at a lower price? Seems that some of you guys like making things harder, and more expensive, then they need to be.

[gunoil]

ditto: smokesahoy

[Maximumbob54]

Why does Lyman offer media when I can buy the 50# sack delivered to my door for the same price. I dunno, ask Lyman. I assume they know something I don't.

[Hang Fire]

I thought sarcasm was supposed to be green?

Pink for some.

[prickett]

How many here will pay 20 bucks a pound for Lyman powder instead of getting powder from HF or online for half the cost?


The same number that buy from PbtP instead of HF :-)

[prickett]

The PC market is a small fraction of this board which is a small fraction of casters.


...which is a small fraction of reloaders, which is a small fraction of shooters.

[Oreo]

There may not be a market for Lyman, but there would be profit available for a small business to test powders for long-term safety (which I've already described one effective method), then buy in bulk and sell by the pound relabled for $20/lb.

[StromBusa]

I emailed Lyman from their website asking if they had any intentions of bringing out molds for 300 blackout, did not get any kind of a response.

note to self...get out to SHOT show...

[AKholicBubba]

I've always wanted to check out a shot show