What and how much crimp on my 44 mag cast loads?

[Leatherhead Bullets]

I am not new to reloading, but new to the 44 mag. I am casting a Keith style 240 grain bevel base out of an old Magma mold. They will be lubed with Hi-tech coating. What is going to be the best crimp for these loads. Generally with all of me other cast loads (.40, 9mm, 300blkout, .45) I have had great success just taking the bell out with the crimp. Is the roll or taper going to be best? I will be using a set of Lee carbide dies. Have the FCD, but have read plenty on this forum that it is not the best for cast. Thanks for any help!

[MtGun44]

OK, how about this for an example?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50454&d=1245298989

Standard Hornady dies, and with Keith boolits with a nice, deep crimp groove like this, I seat and
crimp in one pass. For boolits without a crimp groove, it is necessary to seat and crimp as separate
operations.

Bill

[Blammer]

looks good to me, but then I don't crimp my 44mag ammo

[44man]

Only enough to fold to the bottom of the groove and that is less for most Lee boolits with the chicken scratch grooves.

[44MAG#1]

44man is right.
I have tried crimping just enough to keep the bullets from moving to crimping hard and can see no statistical difference in consistency as long as there is good tight fit on the bullet body by the case itself.
I just use just enough now. Not too much not too little.
You would be surprised at how much crimp you don't need as long as you have the proper fit between the bullet and case.

[pworley1]

It would depend on what you are shooting them in. A revolver would need less crimp than a tube feed rifle. I try to crimp as little as possible.

[gray wolf]

Good info , but what about a bullet that is not hard enough and gets squeeze down from using standard expander die, Isn't the bullet hold compromised ? and a tighter crimp needed. But then again the size of the bullet has been compromised at that point also. I guess the bullet hardness has a lot to do with the whole equation.
Break it down for me boys.

[SWANEEDB]

Also depends the amount of crimp for the powder your using.

[oldpapps]

All good advise above.

Trying to put it in one list:

removed the bell
over crimping eats the brass
crimp to prevent bullet walk when shooting in a revolver (bullet creeps froward)
crimp to prevent bullet set back in tubular magazines (bullet creeps deeper)
powder needs/requires more bullet pull to get proper burn pressures
brass must be close/very close to the same length for consistent crimping
only roll crimp with a bullet that has a crimp grove (lead) or cannalure (jacketed), I don't think with a taper crimp that matters
don't crunch the bullet when crimping

That covers most of the needs. I'm sure there are several more.

What I do is:
My wimp load is with 231/HP38 and it doesn't seem to need greater bullet pull to be happy and the velocity is slow (650 FPS) and I have had no bullet walk in my revolvers - NO crimp (remove the bell).
My heavy lead and jacket loads, get a medium crimp. The lead load is 2400 and likes the crimp to get more even and better velocities and not to walk. Velocities run 1240 FPS and walk quickly with no crimp. I can get close to this velocity with 231/P38 but it is a max load. I haven't tested with out a crimp, knowing the bullets would walk.
The jacket loads get a medium crimp for the same reasons as the heavy lead loads but with a different powder. Velocities run 1260 FPS.

Load with care and enjoy,

OSOK

[44man]

Good info , but what about a bullet that is not hard enough and gets squeeze down from using standard expander die, Isn't the bullet hold compromised ? and a tighter crimp needed. But then again the size of the bullet has been compromised at that point also. I guess the bullet hardness has a lot to do with the whole equation.
Break it down for me boys.
Any revolver boolit that is too soft and gets sized by the case will be too small anyway so going to a larger expander reduces case tension so you would think "more crimp."
You crush into the lead and the soft boolit will not fully open the crimp when shot so it again sizes the boolit. Look at the fired case and if you see any vestige of a crimp left, you are too soft to start with.
Crimp alone has not proven to help anything from powder burn to accuracy, it is there only to assist case tension from letting a boolit move under recoil or to hold in a magazine.
I have tested every crimp I can find from none, shooting single shot in the revolver to full profile.
Then some Double Tap .454 ammo was brought here to test, I looked at them and asked why so much crimp? They looked like full profile jacketed Freedom crimps. The gun was good for two shots and locked up both a Freedom and SRH. Boolits pulled. The crimp on cast was so hard it actually broke case tension. None of my hand loads to 55,000 psi moved. Case tension first!
Now I don't know how Blammer does it with no crimp, he should shoot my boolits and loads! :Fire:

[Leatherhead Bullets]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Is the crimp on the Lee style dies similar to the Hornady? I do like using the powder through expander die. What are your thoughts?

[44man]

I have no idea what the expander is like on the Lee dies or the tension. I have changed to nothing but Hornady dies. I do know the RCBS expander goes in brass too deep and opens it too much. A Lyman "M" die can ruin tension.
Once a boolit is started at the flare, it should expand the brass when seated so you should see the boolit base and even ripples from GG's. That means a hard enough boolit.

[Leadmelter]

On heavy 357 and 44 mag loads, I use the Redding profile crimp die. Does a great job but all your cases need to be properly trimmed.
Leadmelter
MI

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Use only enough crimp to prevent bullet movement. Crimping cold works the brass and shortens (neck/mouth) case life. Heavy roll crimps are the worst, but are sometimes necessary if there is a fair to large amount of recoil. Taper crimps aren't that bad. Of course the length of the cases should be uniform so that the crimp die does its job equally all around. LLS

[GP100man]

I`m with 44man good case tension where ya see the boolits profile very little crimp is needed.

Then again as graywolf has asked, as we expand enuff to acommadate our softer alloys we need a decent roll crimp to hold em !

It`s just like balancing the hardness of our boolits & pressures, but they all have to work in conjunction to "work"

Now as far as seeing a crimp after firing I feel that the mouths of the brass has work hardened ( we`re all frugal & shoot revolver brass till it splits) & a touch of annealin is due . Now , not alot of us anneal revolver brass & annealing in general is over done in my opinion. I`ve prevented the remaining crimp by just barely hitting the mouths .

[Shuz]

I have no idea what the expander is like on the Lee dies or the tension. I have changed to nothing but Hornady dies. I do know the RCBS expander goes in brass too deep and opens it too much. A Lyman "M" die can ruin tension.
Once a boolit is started at the flare, it should expand the brass when seated so you should see the boolit base and even ripples from GG's. That means a hard enough boolit.

And, I'd add, that if your expander is small enuf to get the loaded round to look like a snake that just swallowed a pig, you need to hardly crimp at all. Neck tension, is much more important to performance in the .44 mag than any heavy crimp.

[Bigslug]

Assuming a revolver, the weight of the gun can make a difference. The S&W 396 ultralight scandium .44's added an extra mechanism to ensure the cylinder stays closed under recoil - none of the heavier guns needed that. I would be crimping a little harder for one of those to keep the slugs from scooting.