okay...i'm as frustrated as can be!..........HELP!...O.A.L. issues!

[mozeppa]

i have a dillon 650 progressive press all the bells and whistles.
(even the resin detent ball & spring...shell plate thrust bearings...solid tool head that is anchored.)

i have reddings best competition bullet seater die, lees factory crimp die, reddings dual ring sizer die...this is my set up
to do 45acp


i bulge bust each and every 45 acp case i have and run each thru the dual ring sizer die.

be it known......I"M VERY ANAL to the point of ditching all known brands of case trimmers.....
and buying a taig mini-lathe.
(yes i do check and trim 45 brass...so no guff!)


now my brass ARE .888 +/- a half a thousandth to a whole thousandth.
i'm getting fairly consistant measures with the lathe...time consuming...but its my time.

i chamfer each....and i flare each perfectly...(just enough that the bullet will sit barely in the case mouth.)

read all the instructions to everything 10 times!

took each die apart and thoroughly cleaned everything...especially the seater die...
used 600 grit followed by 1500 grit on both ends of the spring inside the competition die
as it was very roughly ground flat on the contact surfaces of the spring.

my factory taper is adjusted to ONLY remove the belling ...or flared edge.

i'm using berry's plated bullets...230gn

now for the problem...

i made 30 dummy rounds using:

the same brand of brass
the same bullets

and my O.A.L. should be......

1.275 .....(hell!....i'll take anything that's +/- one thousandth close to that number!

but no.

i'm calipering out at 1.269 to 1.290!

i'm all over the freaking map!

then when that didn't do well ...i put in the rcbs seater die.
same result.


everything is tight ...no looseness anywhere.

help! what am i missing?

[bhn22]

It's probably your bullets. Not every bullet swaging die at any given factory is exactly the same. A slight difference in the bullets ogive will cause your OAL to vary.

[labradigger1]

Different ogive from bullet to bullet?
different height from each individual shellholder to ram?
Different rim thickness?
Doing each cycle EXACTLY the same each time?
Does not sound like die issue since you have changed it already.
Lab

[thebigmac]

Methinks you be sizing too much & maybe
the xpanding die is too large. Taper a hair tighter, then try a few. A small
taper won't hurt, maybe increase velosity tad.
Mike your expander AND your boolits. Is there a difference???

thebigmac

[Certaindeaf]

So it seems you might know how to measure.. do you know how to shoot?.
that's code for see how these dastards shoot.

[BD]

That's a significant variation. If you're using a hollow ended seating die stem you are seating the bullets consistently relative to where the diameter at the mouth of the stem contacts the ogive. When you measure the cartridge OAL you are measuring from the nose of the bullets which may not be consistently relative to the point on the ogive contacted by the seeing stem. In addition, if you have good case neck tension the seating stem may be digging into the ogive a bit, how much may vary a little from round to round. Add in small variations in the plating thickness, which effects both the diameter at the ogive contact point and the length of the bullet, and the tolerance stacking possible from all three variables and there you are. You could not worry about it if they shoot OK, or you could use a flat seating stem with RNFP bullet designs to get a more consistent COAL. I use the flat seating stem for all of my handgun loading, and just live with the OAL variation when loading long ogive pointy rifle bullets. I came to that compromise because I believe that the case volume below the heel of the bullet is more critical to consistency in the handgun rounds, while a consistent ogive position relative to the beginning of the lands gives me the best accuracy in rifle rounds.
BD

[bosterr]

You say you're only flaring enough to sit the bullet barely on the case mouth. Try a little more, you're removing that flair with the taper crimp anyway and you won't overwork the brass. I don't worry about what the OD of the finished round is at the crimp. I use the plunk test on my Kimber. I just keep crimping until it's a nice slip fit and no more. Some swear by a .470 or .471 diameter, all guns aren't the same. I do the same for OAL. I keep seating until the rim is just flush with the barrel hood, no more. BTW I use a H & G clone of the 200 gr. SWC. I cannot make either of my Kimbers malfunction using this process. How's the fit of the bullet nose compared with the seating stem when you have both in your hands? I load .45's on a Dillon Square Deal B with the Dillon supplied dies. My 650 XL is my dedicated .357 Mag machine.

[Jammersix]

When I first started loading, I ran into the same problem.

When I called Dillon, they told me their presses aren't more accurate than .007 each direction. So I set my COL to Length plus or minus .007.

You're about twice that, but you're closer than you thought you were.

[mozeppa]

So it seems you might know how to measure.. do you know how to shoot?.
that's code for see how these dastards shoot.

every member of my family & myself can shoot fleas off sleeping dogs without waking the dog at a 100 paces!:grin:
even my half blind sister.


all the points BD made...

i wondered if that was the problem.


When I called Dillon, they told me their presses aren't more accurate than .007 each direction. So I set my COL to Length plus or minus .007.

i may have to just live with that!:roll: sure wished i wasn't such a perfectionist[smilie=b:

[Lloyd Smale]

before i worried about it id load 10 rounds and then load 10 rounds on a single stage press. Check to see if the variation is still there and if not shoot them and see if you even have something to worry about.Back when i shot competitively i loaded thousands of 45acps. I never worried about bullet seating depts, never trimed a single case and loaded with mixed range brass. Never saw were all the anal loading practices did a thing to add to the trophy case.

[44MAG#1]

Yes shoot the things and stop worrying about it. Even factory ammo will vary especially SP bullets.
Being cautious of things is good but don't pound it into the ground.
What good does it do?

[Digital Dan]

Plated bullets, variations in nose dimensions don't have to be great to cause a large shift in OAL. It isn't an uncommon occurrence, but the spread is larger than I've seen in the past. But hey, it's a .45...shoot 'em and see what happens.

[PbHurler]

I've witnessed the same "issues" with plated's. I determined, in my case, the small variations between individual bullets was the culprit. Take a few of your bullets & measure them for length from base to tip, I'll bet they'll be "all over the map". These minor length variances shouldn't cause much grief if the seating plug is indexing on a common point along the ogive (the ogive shape, imo, is a little more consistent). The fluctuations I've seen do occur at the plating at the very tip(s).

I've found the same "discrepancies with Precision Delta's swaged FMJ's.

If you want to spend the time to length sort them; you could get better consistency but, as long as they feed & chamber ok, I'd use them.

(Been there, done this, got the tee shirt & the hat, it frustrated me too)

[HATCH]

I ran into this problem when loading 22 TCM
The bullets aren't mating up to the seating stem.

If you are using dillon dies then get yourself some hot glue.
Put the glue in the seating steam and then press the bullet into it.
Make sure you put a little oil on the bullet so the glue doesn't stick to the bullet.

To be totally honest, unless you are having cycle issues with the OAL variance I wouldn't worry about it.

If you are worried about it then I suggest that you go buy the most expensive box of ammo you can find and measure the OAL on those. You might be really surprised.

On the 22 TCM I was having major issues with feeding. Turned out it was a combination of the tolerance on the 550b press and the bullets not mating up with the seating stem.
I took measurements of a entire 50 rd box of factory ammo and found out that there was a HUGE difference in the OAL but the entire box would cycle without issues.
I fixed the seating stem issue and also belled out the neck a little more so the bullet seated easier.
Problem solved (it took days to get it to spit out PERFECT rounds)

[GP100man]

A flat seating stem will cure your problem , period.

This is all I have to add to this already good/excellent data & experiences with plated bullets (which I gave up on, at least in revolvers)in autos ,when using plated pills I seat & crimp in seperate steps , it helps but still varies .003 or so . I think the taper crimper squeezes the bullet & it moves the small bit of bullet volume upwards ??

GP

[gray wolf]

A flat seating stem will cure your problem , period.
Ease up on yourself, and stop trimming 45 Acp cases, they keep getting smaller and soon you will be seating into the web of the case. (humor )

[gefiltephish]

I'm surprised no one asked this, did you make your 30 dummy rounds one at a time or with a loaded shell plate? If you did only one at a time, right there is your problem. Progressives really need a loaded plate.

[44MAG#1]

As has been mentioned before he needs to shoot them and see how they do.
I would say he has the grasp of the thing now after 17 posts.

[trixter]

I have been reloading 45ACP for about three years now (bout 500 per mo) and found that (to me anyway) the COAL measurement is a good (FROM THE MANUELS) place to start. I then go for'Gun Fit'. Will it cycle every time? Then log it and use that measurement. Actually I have made up dummy rounds for each style of boolit that I shoot, and use them for my initial die setting. Then fine tune them from there. My "critical" adjustment is the factory crimp die. My XDm loves .468 - .469, so that is what I feed it.

[Guardian]

i have reddings best competition bullet seater die, lees factory crimp die, reddings dual ring sizer die...this is my set up
to do 45acp

It isn't clear to me whether you were using the LFC die or not. I've had a terrible time in the past with plated bullets and the LFC die due to the sizing ring in the base of the die. Are the bullets tight in the cases? My LFC was swaging down the bullets, making them longer by a few thousandths. When extracted from the LFC die the brass would spring a bit, the plated lead would not. How much the bullet was swaged depended on the thickness of the brass. Switching to a taper crimp die that does not have a sizing ring in it fixed the problem for me. This may or may not be your problem, but something to eliminate for sure.

[Jammersix]

A flat seating stem will cure your problem , period.
Seating stems do nothing to address the accuracy of the press.

[Tatume]

You could try loading some ammo with jacketed bullets to see if the plated bullets are the problem. However, I use plated bullets too, and they work fine for me.

Take care, Tom

[Atticus Flinch]

I ran into this with 9mm and the RCBS 124 TC. I was using mixed brass and a Dillon 550. At first I blamed it on the varying neck tension of the mixed brass and my relatively soft 50COWW/50Range Scrap boolits. The cases with the higher neck tension would cause the "not quite the right shape" seating die to deform the nose of the boolit a bit and would leave them a few thousandths long. So I made a new seating plug for the Dillon die that fit the noses perfectly. The problem persisted.

I loaded 50 rounds and measured them all. I had 10 that were long and the rest were all pretty close to right. All 10 of them were S&B cases. I pulled the boolits from them all the bases were swaged down significantly. The S&B cases start the taper into the web much higher than the others. The press would push the boolit down into that area and the boolit would pop right back out as soon as the pressure was released.

Tossing those cases in the "not for 124g boolits" pile solved the issue for me. And I got a nice custom seater out of the deal.

[fredj338]

FIrst, way too anal about your process for handgun ammo. I have never trimmed a service pistol case, never. My 650 will hold +/- 0.003" for most bullets, lead, plated or jacketed. Understand that the bullet nose can vary quite a bit. Using mixed brass exacerbates variation. If everything is tight, check the seating punch, make sure it matches the bullet nose. Seating & crimping in one step can also lead to OAL variations.

[bhn22]

Seating stems do nothing to address the accuracy of the press.

You're assuming it is a press issue. A flat seating punch will seat bullets the same length, as long as you only measure from bullet tip to case base, which is how most people do it. If a bullet is seated with a round nose punch, it contacts the bullet in a different area, and since all bullets are not identical, OAL length variations can and do result. Measure a handful of Sierra Match Kings some time, their overall bullet length often varies quite a bit.

[Jammersix]

The press is a Dillon. Dillon told me how accurate their presses are.

You don't get more than that.

If his error were less than that, I'd be saying that there is no unavoidable error.

Stem, bullet, method, weather, woman, Ford, Chevy all of it will add up to plus or minus .007 on a Dillon.

[gray wolf]

Quote Originally Posted by gray wolf View Post
A flat seating stem will cure your problem , period.
Seating stems do nothing to address the accuracy of the press.
I don't think that's what I implied

[Mod42]

The press is a Dillon. Dillon told me how accurate their presses are.

You don't get more than that.

If his error were less than that, I'd be saying that there is no unavoidable error.

Stem, bullet, method, weather, woman, Ford, Chevy all of it will add up to plus or minus .007 on a Dillon.

>007 is the tolerance for the Dillion press. What the press being used actually varies would have to be measured. Not every press will vary .007, most will be less.

A flat seater plug will be the most consistent for overall length, but it does introduce a whole new set of problems to the seating process.

[David2011]

Seating stems do nothing to address the accuracy of the press.

You are right. They will not affect the accuracy of the PRESS. What they will do (been using Dillons since 1991 and have 3 of them) is take the shape of an irregular or inconsistent ogive out of the equation.

Most of the rounds I load measure +/- .002 on .45ACP and .40 S&W with my own SWCs and truncated cones so clearly the Dillon is capable of better than +/- .007. Any variation outside of that is usually caused by flash on the meplat. Rarely I'll have one as much as .004 off.

Mozeppa,

You can lighten up on the case prepping for .45ACP. It just isn't necessary. Besides, unless all of your brass is from the same original manufacturer's batch, trimming will not result in a consistent internal volume so your pressure will still be different from brand to brand and batch to batch. They don't grow and they last a long time. Trash on the platform of the ram can cause OAL variations that are short but not long. I'm betting that most of your variation is due to the differnece from boolit to boolit. If you don't have all of the postions of the shellholder filled at all times you will have some small variations from cartridge to cartridge due to differences in the way the press flexes. You might try some regular cast or commercial jacketed and see how the OAL runs.

David

[RedHawk357Mag]

I once had something like this happen with my 550. And somebody else mentioned it already. I spent a few days working this out. Turns out you really need a round on each station while setting up the press. Not saying the other suggestions aren't correct but on my press things were much more satisfactory once I started a round in each station. Good luck. And hope you get figured out. BTW Wilson makes a great trimmer for us OCD types:)

[HeavyMetal]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest you makes 10 or so dummy rounds with out the taper crimp die in the press.

I had a 45 colt Lee set at one time and the seating die was so tight the boolits got punched into the case before they touched the seater plug! I know this because I pulled the plug and still seated boolits to the same length!

So I think you got a die problem but think your looking at the wrong die!

[Cadillo]

You have two possible problems, and they are most likely present.

Most bullets have inconsistent noses from bullet to bullet. If you use any type of contour type seating punch, this will result in variable OAL. A flat face seating punch will take care of this, but will require more care in the seating process and slow things down some.

While I'm not familiar with the 650 press, I have two 550's and have been using them since 1986. I've learned what makes them work well or not well. The tool head is too loose in the press frame and moves around too much to be consistent on seating crimping etc. Having a fully loaded shell plate helps a lot, but is not enough.

Until Uniquetek (sp) came out with their kits for modifying the tool heads, I would gently flair the bottom edge of the tenons on my tool heads, such that they were a press fit into the raceways on the press frame. I would then have to tap them into or out of place with a mallet, but they would stay put and not move up and down during cycling.

I no longer do that, but rather drill and tap the tool heads for the set screws devised by Uniquetek(sp). This helps a great deal with consistent OAL from cartridge to cartridge. You might consider looking at Uniquetek's website.

Also, using the Dillon taper crimp dies, there is no need at all to trim semi auto brass!

[canyon-ghost]

Might also check to see that the die is snug against the tool head. I've had them loosen off once the press tops out a time or two, then they'd not be tight. They don't set right with slack in the threads.