Quality of Purchased Cast Bullets ?

[03lover]

This thread is intended to be information of my experience only, good and bad, and I would appreciate feed bad to help me understand what may be best in the way of purchased cast bullets.

Last year I purchased a Winchester Model 94 in like new condition. Being anxious to shoot it using cast bullets for light to mid-range loads I tried several 30 caliber bullets that I cast. None of my bullets are the flat nose design or are the wrong length for magazine feeding in this tube feed rifle, although some performed very well on target.

I went online looking for some 30 caliber flat nosed cast bullets intended of tube feed rifles. I found "Hunters Supply Bullets", 165 grain and .311" diameter, flat base. I ordered (500) and the bullets I received looked pretty good, except the bases were not filled out well on many of the bullets.
The bullet crimp groove leaves too much bullet nose forward of the case neck making the over all length of the cartridge too long to feed through the rifle, forcing me to seat the bullets a little deeper. The results of several loads that grouped best at fifty yards were mixed. There were at least one or two flyers in every ten shot group, which is about the same ratio of poorly filled out bullet bases.

Next I purchased some "Oregon Trail" 165 grain flat point 30 caliber cast bullets. These bullets look great and I see no defects. The bullet shape and crimp groove location are right for proper feeding from the tube magazine. These bullets are bevel based. I haven't had a chance to fire any yet but expect they will do quite well. I will report the results of my testing.

I also purchased some "Penn Bullets", 150 grain flat nosed 30 caliber bullets. I received them yesterday and opened the box to see how these bullets looked. Now I am not trying to trash Penn Bullets. I simply haven't decided what I should do with bullets that I consider defective at this point. I do intend to call and see what course of action Penn bullets suggests. The bullets I received looked fine except for one thing. The bevel bases had what I call flash or finning caused by a sprue plate not fitting properly with the mould. It is inconsistent and sometimes not at all. About 25% to 30% of the bullets have this defective base condition. Needless to say, I can't expect much in the way of accuracy with these bullets.

I will report back with whatever action Penn Bullets recomends.

['74 sharps]

Check the hardness of the bullets.

[cbrick]

From your post your a boolit caster, from what you've spent so far on commercial boolits you could have bought a mold and be merrily making your own.

This way when the quality isn't up to your expectations you know right where the complaint department is and there no waiting for a reply.

Rick

[462]

As mentioned, since you are already a caster, why buy cast boolits of dubious quality?

Lyman's 311042 and 311291 are designed specifically for the Model 94.

I use the 311291 (actually, an older Ideal 308291) and it's accuracy has always been outstanding.

[dbosman]

03lover, I cast boolits and I purchase commercially cast bullets at gun shows (no shipping that way) to have a larger variety than I want to invest in molds for. I understand your frustration. I'd be calling or writing either or both companies and emailing pictures of the bad examples. Polite but firm is the way to go. The owners may not know what an employee shipped.

My favorite light boolit for .30 anything is the Lyman 311316 originally for the .32-20. It's a gas check design and I've never had an issue with it. It will shoot a lot better than this shooter is capable of.
The Lee C309-113-F comes very close.

[Cherokee]

Check with Penn, Bob is a good man and should take care of you.

[Scharfschuetze]

Hope you find some satisfaction with those pre-cast boolits. With the plain base boolits you'll probably find your best loads with them to be rather pedestrian velocity wise. Still, you can have quite a bit of fun at the lower end of the spectrum. As you've already surmised, the base of the bullet is pretty critical for accuracy. The squarer to the bore and the better it's filled out, the happier you will be. My most accurate cast boolit is a nose pour design that gives absolutely square bases.

My favorite 30/30 boolit is the Lyman 311041 of about 170 grains. It's a gas check design so it will operate up near the velocity potential of the 30/30 and do it accurately with a good alloy and lubricant. It also functions well through the magazine.

Keep us posted on your adventures.

[03lover]

I did talk to Bob at Penn Bullets. I indicated I inspected several (20) round samples and found an average of 30% of each sample had defective bases. Bob said he would send me (300) more bullets which is 30% of the (1000) bullet order I had placed. I consider that a resonable offer and appreciate the help. I will have to sort the entire order to eliminate and defective bullets that could affect group sizes, especially when load testing.

I am using these purchased bullets for my 30-30 Winchester because my shooting will be more liminted with the 30-30 than my other rifles and pistols. I don't want to buy another bullet mould.

I haven't checked the bullet hardness yet, but I will.

My loads will all be in the 1100 to 1500 fps range. Simply light to moderate fun shooting with this lever gun.

[noylj]

Try the bullets first. About the only fault that I have found that will destroy accuracy every time is a base that is not fully filled out. As long as the base is good, accuracy will be close to as-good as a perfect bullet from the mold (unless you are shooting beyond 200 yards or so).

[03lover]

novlj,

For me it makes little sense to load visibly defective bullets, especially for load testing. Maybe after a good load or loads have been worked up, then firing only the defective bullets may indicate just how much affect on accuracy they have.

The defect I am trying to describe in not unlike a base that is not filled out. In this case it is extra material on one side of the base and would cause the bullet to act like one with a base not fully filled out.

The base of any bullet that is not symetrical and square to the axis will not provide the plateform for the hot gases to propel the bullet with equal pressure around the entire base. Bullets with these defects will be tipped as they exit the muzzle. Bullets of this nature, loaded randomly will produce larger than normal groups and those unexplained flyers when loaded mixed with good bullets.

[TXGunNut]

Quality of available cast bullets is why I cast my own. I know there are good boolits out there, several members are commercial casters. It's just that I cast better boolits on my first attempt than I was able to find for sale. I wasted well over the cost of a basic casting setup when I should have been pouring my own.

[rintinglen]

Quality of available cast bullets is why I cast my own. I know there are good boolits out there, several members are commercial casters. It's just that I cast better boolits on my first attempt than I was able to find for sale. I wasted well over the cost of a basic casting setup when I should have been pouring my own.
+1
My experience exactly. Poorly filled-out bases, rounded bands, obvious blemishes and wrinkles were often common place. Now I make my own exclusively.

[Socal147]

Sand / file the base square. Go kill paper.

Use the good ones for load work up and killing big deadly animals with sharp teeth, long claws, and a bad attitudes.

[FLHTC]

There is a local commercial caster that does pretty good work in his pistol bullet line but I wouldn't trust anyone other than myself to make good rifle bullets. My eyes might not be the best for culling the rejects but my alloy and mould prep minimizes them to begin with. The commercial guys usually go like a bat out of hell to make money and that's not what I want at my loading bench. I can make poorly filled gas check heels so why pay for them?

[gbrown]

I wanted some cast boolits for my 30/30 TC carbine for hunting. It never occurred to me to buy them. I had some alloy I had made up for GC boolits in 18-19 bhn. I have an HG 86 that comes in at about 173 grains in my alloy, but wanted a lighter boolit. I picked up an NOE 155 RF--after a break in period, get it up to temp--it turns out pretty stuff, well filled out, and does very nicely. Why depend on others? Get your own mold(s) and make stuff you are satisfied with. Haven't used any in Dad's old 94, yet, but that is to come. I've bought plenty of pistol boolits with good results in the past, but when you have the ability to cast your own, it gets cheaper and you know what you got.

[smokesahoy]

I had good experiences with missouri bullets when I first started switching over. If you are on the fence, why not get a box before spending a bunch getting into casting

[wv109323]

Commercial bullet casters should be able to make the best bullets possible. They have very consistent alloy to start with. They also should have automated equipment that is more consistent than our manual equipment. The big thing is that most commercial casters size to nominal diameters and that may not be optiminal for your firearm. Sometimes the hardest alloy is NOT what works best.p

[dudel]

As mentioned, since you are already a caster, why buy cast boolits of dubious quality?


Well, the OP may not have the time available to cast, or the required moulds (lead time can be quite long).

His approach doesn't seem too unreasonable. First find a profile/weight that works, THEN go out and find the mould.

[03lover]

Thanks for all for the suggestions and questions. Too many of the responses were off the subject of my thread though. I simply wanted to know if any of the forum members have had experience with purchased cast bullets, good or bad.

The subject of casting my own is a good one and I am sure, after proper break in of a quality mould, I could do better. But, as I have stated, I don't intend to shoot this rifle enough to get into casting another bullet when I am already casting for far too many rifles and pistols.

I do more load testing than just fun shooting. The reason is, load testing causes me to do more loading and shooting and I like to do both. Also, I like the challange of developing accurate loads. I, like some others am always looking for the best, most accurate, load for any of my firearms. In doing so, I will try to eliminate any known cause of less than desirable accuracy. One thing I don't need in load testing is another excuse for poor accuracy when I don't know the cause.

Therefore, with any of these purchased bullets, I will sort out any that are of lesser quality and those will be set aside. The good ones will be used for load testing and when I have settled on the best loads I can shoot the lesser quality bullets, loaded to the best load and compare the accuracy results with the good bullets. Maybe they won't be that bad and maybe they will be used as bore foulers before some serious shooting.

Shooting bullets of questionable quality mixed with the good ones during load testing would be an excercise in frustration and a waste of time and material. How would I know which of the many causes of poor accuracy was why the groups are poor or sometimes erratic in nature.

Thanks again for the responses.

[OKSaddletramp]

03lover,

I've been shooting commercial cast in my handguns for years, but rarely in rifle. I do, however, have a couple of friends who shoot commercial cast in .30-30 and .30 - 06. In 20+ years, I've only had issues with one purchase, and that was an individual at a gun show who I think was selling his home cast rejects. The bullet was a dead ringer for the Lee TL452-200-SWC, with Alox. But at $10 for 250, I didn't complain too loudly. Of course, this was before I knew anything about casting myself. I've since picked up a Lyman single cavity 452460 that I like much better.

My friends loading for their .30's swore by Suter's Choice, and I tried them in my .44's and .38 Taurus. Excellent boolits, zero defects, and they shoot wonderfully. Sadly they appear to be no more. Before reading your post, I understood Penn's are about the same and was willing to give them a try in caliber's I don't have moulds for yet. I only wish they had a broader selection.

Despite "purists", if you lack the time, resources or inclination to cast your own "perfect" boolit, commercial cast can be a viable alternative to full length GCs, as long as you understand their limitations as to design and weight and adjust your expectations accordingly.

Good luck with your search, and I await your results on the tests with the Penns. I too would like to shoot my Contender in that mild range. Let me know what load works for you.

Saddle [smilie=2:

[jonp]

As mentioned, since you are already a caster, why buy cast boolits of dubious quality?

Lyman's 311042 and 311291 are designed specifically for the Model 94.

I use the 311291 (actually, an older Ideal 308291) and it's accuracy has always been outstanding.

If you have a new firearm it might make sense to buy several boxes of 100 boolits to try out different styles to see what you like before investing in a mold that you might cast some from and then will sit on the shelf because it doesn't work for you.
I have bought from all of these companies particularly from Hunters Supply and have had good luck with them although they do tend to be hard boolits.

[03lover]

I live in southern Minnesota and it seems we have relocated to the Artic Circle. Temperatures have been below zero more than above and the snow keeps getting deeper. The drifts are so bad in my field that I can't get to my shooting range, not even with the tractor with chains.

I guess my testing with these purchased cast bullets will have to wait until late March.

I will get back with the results when I am able to do the test firing.:(

[Bullshop]

[smilie=1:

[wch]

Try Beartooth bullets; the options they offer will get you what you need/want and the quality is very good.