Accuracy report on the RCBS 22-55 bullets, waxed and gas checked.

[larrymac1]

Loaded up 100 rounds yesterday with 10 rounds loaded with increasing powders. Started with IMR 4198 at 14 grains. Shooting at 100 yards. S&W MP Sport 1-7 twist rate. Target size is 14" x 17". 6" bullseye rings are numbered from 5 to 10 with 5 being outside rings at 1" intervals. The report follows:

14 grains 10 rounds 7 hit the paper spread was 9 inches. AR would not cycle. It would eject spent cases but not load next round and on one occasion would not eject case.

15 grains 10 rounds 7 rounds hit, spread was 12.5 inches. AR would not cycle. However 6 of the seven rounds were around the bullseye area with a spread of about 4.75 inches

16 grains 10 rounds 7 rounds hit, spread was 12.5". AR cycled once then continued to stovepipe for next 8 rounds.

17 grain 9 rounds 8 rounds hit paper, spread was 12.25" (closing the gap, whee!) AR cycled most rounds stovepiped one round damaged beyond fireability. 3 of the 8 in bullseye.

18 grains 10 rounds fired 3 hit paper. Spread was 11". AR cycled all rounds. Nothing in the bullseye.

Switched powders at this time and went to CFE which is one of my usual powders I load copper SP bullets with. Found nothing on line to indicate powder load. Started at 20 grains.

20 grains 10 rounds fired 10 hit paper this was encouraging. Spread was 13". However 5 in the bullseye with a 2.75 inch spread. 3 on the bottom line of target area 2 inch spread. All cycled through the AR. I was encouraged by this one.

21 grains 10 round fired 10 hit paper. Spread was 8". 1 in 5 ring, 1 in 6 ring, 3 in 7 ring, 1 in 8 ring, 2 in 9 ring and 2 in 10 ring with one in 1" bullseye. All cycled. Interesting note is that I found 3 dots of wax on the paper around the bullseye area.

22 grains 10 rounds fired 3 hit paper. Spread is 13" and only 1 in the rings at 6. All cycled.

23 grains 10 rounds fired 5 hit paper. All in the rings. 2 in the 10 ring, 1 in 9, 1 in 8 and 1 in 6.

Jumped to full scale with 26 grains just to see if I could make the bullet vaporize. I get very good accuracy with regular bullets at this load.

26 grains 10 rounds 5 hit paper. Spread is 12", no hits in the 8,9, or 10 bullseye ring, only 3 in the rings at all. Did not see any vaporized rounds, all hit down range.

Bullets were all waxed and gas checked. All well molded and all loaded in the case well.

To check and see if it was me being off I fired 30 rounds regular 55 grain Hornady SP that I realoaded at 26 grains at two additional targets. First target spread was 7.25". All rounds were in the 7 ring or closer. 12 in the 10 ring and one center bulls eye. Second target was similar but no bullseye.

So I assume my shooting was pretty good, not great but pretty good.

If anyone has any ideas I am certainly willing to listen. 21 grains of CFE were my best round test, but not something I would hunt with.

I am ordering a liter of hi-tek and will run the experiment again. I will use CFE and
H335 and probably start at about 20 grains and go up. I am confident that the bullets will not 'vaporize' as had been reported elsewhere. I could see all rounds impacting behind the target so that is OK. Just the accuracy stinks.

One other note is that the cased with cast bullets and wax were extremely dirty. Barrel seemed pretty clean but the neck of the cases were very black.

[wmitty]

Have you tried these in anything with a slower twist rate? 1 in 14" for instance? I have not tried casting .224" boolits, but I do know that the fast twist rate is going to accentuate the imbalance problem and make accuracy more difficult to obtain at respectable velocity. And thanks for posting; I knew a lot of folks were interested in casting for the AR's, but I had no idea what kind of groups they were coming up with with the fast twist barrels...

[Larry Gibson]

All of your loads are well over the RPM threshold for a 7" twist barrel. I suggest a heavier cast bullet of 65 - 75 gr, Cast of an alloy of 18 - 20 BHN minimum, sized and lubed at .226+, a medium burning powder such as 4895, RL15 or Varget and the use of a 1/3 gr Dacron filler. Start at 14 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments looking for a load that just gives 100% reliable functioning. Your best accuracy will be there. You should at least keep all 10 shots in the black on that target with such.

Larry Gibson

[southpaw]

I have been using h4895 at 19.5 grain with that boolit. I have not tried them at 100 yards but at 50 yards they are less than 2". The guns that I have been shooting them out of have 1/9 twists.

You may want to try a little lower with the cfe if it will cycle. But you might not get any better than the 8" group if you are getting over 7" groups with jacketed.

Two questions: Did you shoot these groups from the bench?

What was the alloy that you used for the boolits in the test?

Jerry Jr.

[larrymac1]

Yes all shooting was from the bench. I started to go to 50yards first but all spaces were taken so i went to the 100. I have written to Hodgdon and see what they recommend for powder measure with H335, CFE and Superformance for my 22-250. Bullets seemed very hard. I do not have a hardness measure but using wheel weights and adding tin solder and linotype to about 10 pounds of wheel weights that are clean lead. I am using 1/4 pound of solder and similar in linotype. Mold pours have been very clean and used copper gas checks. All loads were in R-P (Remington) cases. The 7 in 1 twist rate is just what Smith put on these guns. I have shot heavier bullets but overall 55 grain usually outshot them. I will mention that I am 65 and a bit shaky but do shoot from a bipod. At 50 yards I can shoot most of the white out of the bullseye with about 20 rounds. Sort of like shooting the star out at the carny shows. My thinking, and this is where I probably got messed up was that groups would improve slowly with increased loads then decrease slowly as I got past the sweet spot. I did not expect the sharp increase in accuracy as I went up nor did I expect the massive decrease after the best of the rounds. At 21 grains I put all 10 in the target at 22 grains only 3 and they barely stayed on the target. I was surprised by that. CFE at 20 grains I had them all on paper but very loosely then 21 grains around the bullseye except for ones I am sure I pulled. Then 22 grains and nothing. I did not think that was even possible.

[w30wcf]

larry,
Is the nose of the bullet a snug fit in the end of the barrel?

w30wcf

[dverna]

If you are getting 7" groups with jacketed you have a serious problem.

Scope is loose or defective - try iron sight or another scope
Crown is shot
Barrel is shot

If shooting form a bench - it is not you. So have a close look at the gun or take it to a guy who knows AR's. If the gun is recently bought - send it to S&W.

[Larry Gibson]

larrymac1

My thinking, and this is where I probably got messed up was that groups would improve slowly with increased loads then decrease slowly as I got past the sweet spot. I did not expect the sharp increase in accuracy as I went up nor did I expect the massive decrease after the best of the rounds.

If you would have had the old 12" twist of the original ARs/ M16s (the original, original ARs had 14" twists) you would probably have experienced that. However, the 7" twist is problematic from the git go. By the time you get a functionally reliable load the velocity is already to high for optimum accuracy unless you go to very,,,,some say tedious and even anal, procedures in casting and loading. With your bullet and regular casting/loading techniques you can expect to hold the black on that 6" bull at 100 yards.

Larry Gibson

[larrymac1]

That gun has never been that accurate. I have tried a number of scopes and finally found an NC Star (I know, I know) that would hold up to the punishment. At 50 yards I can put it in a pigs ear, but further than that is is a toss up. It is fun to shoot though. I would not ever take it hunting for anything other than vermin and predators it is just not all that good. I have a 22-250 that punches really nice little circles close to one another out to 200. I just don't shoot further than that at the range although they have a couple of 400 yard lanes. I shoot at a range I am comfortable with and just try to improve as much as I can. I am trying to figure out a powder load for the 22-250 and see what it will do with a lower twist rate. Thanks for all the input. I am thinking of epoxy coating some and see if that improves the accuracy.

[Guardian]

I know there are many differences between jacketed and cast, but hear me out.

I was about to pull my hair out trying to develop a jacketed load for a 1:7 twist AR. 55 grain bullets with the powders I tried (CFE223, IMR4895, H4895, W748) would group no better than 5 inches at 100 yds (5 MOA) with me or my father pulling the trigger. I tried ladder tests, the targets looked like I was patterning a shotgun. I was getting frustrated because I know I'm a better shot than that. I'm not typically a one hole group shooter, but I ain't that bad. 62 grain bullets were only marginally better. Stepping up to 77 grain Nosler Custom Competition bullets made a huge difference. Suddenly, I was getting 1 MOA to 2 MOA groups routinely. This is satisfactory to me with a 16 inch carbine.

You may find that building a heavy for caliber jacketed load is easier to accomplish than a cast load. I'm not trying to dissuade you from cast, just trying to eliminate a few variables so that you can get an idea of the capabilities of the rifle to guide you going forward.

You may also find something in this thread helpful, beginning on about page 17: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?188868-MiHec-22-Nato-Heavy-%2875-gr-version%29-brass-four-amp-six-cavity-solid/page20

Larry G., thanks for that info. I'm on the quest to build a cast load for a 1:7 twist as well. I got the Mihec 75 gr mold, but that is as far as I've gotten.

[detox]

The Sierra 52 gr Boat Tail Matchking works verygood in a 1/7 twist barrel. I also use 133 powder per Sierra's load data.

I am afraid to shoot cast in 1/7 twist AR, but it may be doable with hard alloy like linotype and good NRA 50/50 lube. Keep velocities low enough just to cycle.

I bet your barrel is leaded. Did you remove? You can use 0000 fine steel wool wrapped around loose bronze bore brush to remove lead. Be verycareful around crown area. Do not pull brush back thru crown after exiting crown.

[.22-10-45]

I probably spent far too much time trying to get that RCBS .22 bullet to shoot in my 1-14" Shillen barreled Hornet..finally gave up..nose too small for bore guidence. I am getting 1/2" to 3/4" groups at 100yds. with 52gr. G.C. cast.