Finally! My first boolits!

[sasquatch76]

I've been waiting awhile for the weather to clear up enough so I could get to casting. Used my Lyman Big Dipper pot and Lee 6 cav 230gr .452 RN mold. Lead is from smelted WW's. First few batches were wrinkled pretty badly, my mold wasn't hot enough, so back in the pot with them. But then it started spitting out some beauties. After getting 122 made the wind started blowing rain onto the porch, had to cover my pot and shut down for the day. I'm very happy with the results and can't wait to cast some more.

http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=364&d=1389468044

http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=367&d=1389472628

http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=366&d=1389469732

[Sweetpea]

Those look pretty good!

You must be braver/faster than me...

I wouldn't even try to dip with a 6 banger...

You must have been moving pretty fast to get the mold temp up!

Brandon

[sasquatch76]

Once I got my technique down I was able to dip and fill the cavities pretty quick before the mold cooled off too much. I am definitely going to get a bottom pour pot soon, because I don't like dealing with the mess that comes with using a dipper.

[madsenshooter]

Mess? I find the drippy bottom pour a lot messier. Maybe we have different types of ladles though. Your first bullets, got ya hooked now.

[sasquatch76]

Oh yeah, I'm hooked! I'm using the Lyman dipper that came with my kit, it has a pour spout hole. Maybe I need to try a regular dipper.

[sasquatch76]

I have a question. These boolits are supposed to be .452, I took a caliper to them and they measure .449. Is this normal or is it going to be a problem? Will I need to size them?

[Sweetpea]

You will need to ask your gun what it wants.

And use a micrometer.

[myg30]

Good job and good looking boolits. You might be able to drill open the pour spout a little bit to allow more flow or keep your mold on a hot plate while pouring.
Try hotter melt and see if still to small.
If your measuring the outside Dia. and they are all .449, One from each cav. I think that's going to be to small for any 45.
Weigh one from each cav. are they light ? Might have to return that one for replacement.

Mike

[brown bass hunter]

Good lookin boolits ! Life will never be the same, good luck shooting them.

[trixter]

Those boolits need to come out of the mold at least .453-.454. My Lee Push Through sizer says .451 on it, but it is closer to .452, (.4516) and my Springfield XDm gobbles them up like appetizers.

[Wag]

Those look good! Can't wait to see how they perform in your pistol.

--Wag--

[Warner C]

I use the same mould and mine are coming out at .451 they seem to shoot fine. and I have minimal leading no more that bullets I would buy.

[sasquatch76]

Thanks for the help and compliments everyone. I found the problem. My cheap digital caliper is off by .005". So that would put my boolits at .454.
I alox'ed them yesterday, now it's time to size. I'll be shooting these out of a 1911 , I don't have a micrometer, or a way to slug my barrel.

[bruce381]

run them through a .452 sizer or try them as is. All my 45s run .452 fine.

[sasquatch76]

I loaded a couple into empty cases, they chamber fine in my 1911.

[sasquatch76]

Loaded up five of my boolits. Did not go well.

Loaded with 5grs Titegroup, OAL 1.250", Lee crimp.
http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=370&d=1389559910

Here's the target I shot at 20ft.
http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=371&d=1389560084
Looks like they tumbled.

Here's a couple of the boolits I found at the bottom of my target board.
http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=372&d=1389560350

Definitely looks like they hit at a weird angle.

There was some leading in my 1911's barrel also.

I'm pretty disappointed right now. So, why are these boolits too small? What did I do wrong when casting them, or is it just a defective mold? I'm completely at a loss. I would greatly appreciate any solutions you guys can provide.

[Cherokee]

I don't see any land/groove marks on those boolits. Boolits too small. Might have to send that one back to Lee. If you have some, try adding 2% tin to the alloy and see how that goes for size.

This is all part of the fun of casting & reloading.

[RickinTN]

You might try "pressure pouring" with your ladle. Fill the ladle about half full with alloy, turn the mold to be vertical, and put the nipple of the ladle in the pour hole. Rotate the mold and ladle to be horizontal and let the pressure of the melt in the ladle force the melt into the mold. I'm a ladle caster also, and until I started using this technique I had many rejects. Since I've been pressure pouring my rejects have dropped to 2 to 3% and the bases and bands of my bullets are filled out very well. I don't loose many. I'm thinking this might bring your bullets up to diameter if the mold is capable.
Good Luck,
Rick

[sasquatch76]

That sounds like a good idea RickinTN. I'll try that.

[sasquatch76]

Cherokee, there are some slight rifling marks on the boolits, but not what I'd expect. I may have to sent it back, but this is what i found on Lee's site:
"Any Lee product of any age or condition that is currently manufactured,
will be reconditioned to new if returned to the factory
with payment of half the retail price + shipping."

So am I going to have to pay half because they may have made a defective mold?

I'll see about getting a hold of some tin and learning how to mix the alloy.

[sasquatch76]

I cast 100 more boolits today. They are all frosted, I got the mold really hot, they still came out .449". I borrowed a friend's micrometer and measured the base groove on a mold cavity, it was .452", so now I know it's not the mold. It has to be my lead. I'm thinking it needs tin to help fill out the cavities. I was told lead-free solder would work or 60/40 solder. Will those work? If so, how much do I add per pound of lead?

[Foto Joe]

Lead free solder will work just fine although DO NOT use anything that contains silver. I've used 97/3 (tin/antimony) but you're going to find out that buying tin that way is really expensive ($40 per pound) but it will get you acquainted with the process. When adding tin to COWW alloy just add 2% by weight as in if you've got ten pounds in the pot (160oz) then add 3.2 oz of 97/3 solder. If you're using 60/40 solder then you'll have to extrapolate the 60% of the 60/40 to come up with the 2%. When I use 97/3 I just call it 100% tin but I wouldn't do that with 60/40.

Also you can find popcorn tin at RotoMetals for half of what the solder costs: http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/tinflakes.htm

I think that you're going to find that the addition of tin will get you filled out properly or at least help immensely. Stay away from adding anything that contains copper as well to aid in getting the proper fillout.

[sasquatch76]

Thanks Foto Joe! I see what you mean about expensive. I bought 50/50 solder, a 1.5oz coil cost me $9! It should be at least enough to test a small batch of alloy in my mold. I'll definitely check out RotoMetals. Fingers crossed that this gets me .452 boolits. I also so heard from Lee again today, they said to send the Mold back to them and they'd figure it out, if adding tin to my mix doesn't fill out the mold, it's going back.

[cali4088]

sasquach, concerning 50/50 solder, find a better price other than 1.5 oz for 9 bucks. You should find some good deals for tin at 1# for $10. Scrap yards might be selling lead for .90 cents a lb. Look for the old solder rolls that are all tangled. they just scrap it as lead.

definetly DO NOT go to rotometals IMO

[sasquatch76]

I'll have to check if there are any scrap yards near me.

I was thinking, maybe the boolits are tumbling because they're under powered. I have tested them with 5.0 grs of Titegroup and 5.7 grs of Unique. I noticed both loads tumbled and a couple bounced off my target board which is a rubber mat. A reloading friend of mine suggested I go with 6.5grs of Unique, according to the Lyman reloading book this is close to max. I'm going to start with my load and work up to 6.5grs and see if it improves the performance of these bullets.

[cali4088]

you can buy pure tin on eBay for around $20 a #

[ACrowe25]

There are much cheaper and easier fixes to your issue at hand.

You need to slug your barrel. Anything less is guess work. You'll then find the root of your problem I'm sure. Most likely larger than .451 barrel.

[RickinTN]

A few months ago I bought 5lbs of certified tin bars on Ebay for $10/lb. I've also bought 95-5 solder there, 7lbs for $72 shipped. You may have to shop a little to get prices like this.
Rick

[sasquatch76]

I had a friend of mine slug the barrel yesterday. It came out to a little over .451".
RickinTN, I definitely plan on shopping for some tin soon. Any idea how much alloy (2% tin) I can make with this 1.5oz of 50/50? I'll be using WW lead. Need just enough to cast some test boolits and see if they fill out to the proper diameter.

[RickinTN]

With 1 1/2 oz of 50-50 solder you actually have 3/4 oz of tin. For 2% mix it with about 37oz (2lb 5oz) of your alloy. My calculator is acting "goofy" right now but this will put you close enough.
Good Luck,
Rick

[Silvercreek Farmer]

You could try Beagling the mold.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/BDE.pdf

[Foto Joe]

My suspicion is that there's nothing wrong with the mold or at least nothing wrong with it from the factory. Beagling a mold is a drastic measure especially when the manufacturer says they'll take it back.

Just out of curiosity...did you smoke this mold or possibly spray it with something like Frankfort Arsenal Release Compound??

Also, I agree with shopping eBay. I haven't looked for tin on eBay but I have searched for lead and am watching a couple right now. RotoMetals really likes their lead but their tin prices seem to be average. The reason I mentioned the popcorn tin was that it really seems like an easy way to weigh it up when alloying.

I was initially a tough sell when it came to adding tin to COWW melt. Larry Gibson made as statement a month or so ago when I was talking about the difference that 2% tin makes in COWW's. He told me that using COWW's straight I had been casting good boolits. After I added the tin I was casting GREAT boolits.

[sasquatch76]

I was actually reading up on beagling and Leementing, don't think I want to go that route.

Yes, I thoroughly cleaned and smoked the mold before casting.
The lead I'm using is WW ingots I bought on Ebay. I suspect it's decent stuff but probably needs more tin knowing how WW alloy can vary.
Really have my fingers crossed that this is going to work.

[Foto Joe]

With a properly cleaned and prepped mold regardless of who made it there is no need to put anything into the cavity other than lead. Smoking or using a release agent will take up room in the cavity thereby reducing the diameter of the mold, how much depends upon how carried away the person doing the smoking or spraying the release agent gets. I suggest that you take a toothbrush and some dawn dishwashing soap and see what you can do to remove the smoke. Other than that, add some tin, get the temp up to 700 degrees or so and make sure that you don't have copper in the alloy. In other words don't add solder that has copper in it.

Wheel weight lead actually doesn't vary too much as long as it's all Clip On Wheel Weights.

[sasquatch76]

OK, I mixed the 50/50 into a small test batch of lead. I cleaned my mold really good with a toothbrush, dish soap, and water, then rinsed and dried it.
Cast 50 bullets. I keep my mold on a hot plate to keep it at a constant temp.
Out of 50 only 2 were good. One was .452 the other .454. The rest measured from .446 to .449.

I have no idea what's going wrong here, I've tried just about everything suggested. Just frustrated right now, I need to take a break.

[cali4088]

What are you pouring with? lead does collapse on itself as it cools to a certain degree because of a poor pour. Possibly pour slower? More antimony, less tin...? Im throwing things out here. Was your lead frosty AND shiny? I believe that is a sign of too much tin if I am not mistaken. Was it just frosty with a dull look? Might have too much antimony. Maybe try this. get your lead hot, then pour it into an ingot and let it cool. Once its cool, re heat it and poke at it while it melts. The way it melts will give you a good idea of what your metal composition is.

[mikedp]

Just in case...when pouring, are you letting it puddle on top of the mold?

[sasquatch76]

I'm using a Lyman dipper. I have tried different pouring styles, fast, slow, compression. I let a puddle form on top also. I've measured boolits right after they come out of the mold, I noticed that the bullets will come out about .452 or greater but then shrink to .449 or less after they've cooled. The two bullets that came out right are shiny, but slightly frosted on the base.

[Foto Joe]

What's got me a little confused is that according to a previous post, you've only got 3/4 of an ounce of tin which at 2% will alloy roughly 2 1/2 pounds of lead. That's barely enough to cover the bottom of a ten pound pot, I doubt the problem is too much tin.

I know you're in a hurry to get this done and you want to see perfect results but I think it's time to slow down a bit here and here's what I'm gonna suggest:

Get on Amazon or MidwayUSA or whatever and get yourself a lead thermometer ordered, it really is a must. While you're waiting for that to show up heat up your pot and dump what ever alloy is in it into an ingot mold of some sort (muffin pan) and set it aside. Then get the pot cleaned up, I use water and heat it until it boils and then scrub out the pot with a steel gun brush that's been bent to fit. Next take some of the lead that you have (not the stuff in the muffin pan) and weigh it up so you know how much your putting in and melt and flux it with whatever strikes your fancy, I happen to like Gulf wax but some folks swear by sawdust.

I went back and look at your picks from the original post, the boolits are fair at best. I think that once you take the time to clean the lead that you have, then add the appropriate amount of tin either from 50/50, 97/3 or wire stock/popcorn tin from RotoMetals (they're out of stock on the popcorn right now but are substituting wire stock) and then KNOW the temperature at which you're casting I think this problem will solve itself.

I still can't blame the Lee Mold simply because if it drops .452 hot then shrinks then the cavity is of course .452. What I am a little worried about is the content of the lead ingots. Did you smelt the stick on wheel weights along with the clip on ones?? Are you absolutely certain that there is no zinc in the mix? Also, the 50/50 solder that you purchased was 50% Tin and 50% What??

Don't give up on this but I really do think it's time to step back and look from a distance at the problem, start again from scratch and take your time with the appropriate tools like a thermometer. If you think that this is getting the best of you then a bottom pour really isn't what you want to do right now 'cause those things will definitely humble you when something goes wrong.

I really want to know what the other 50% of that solder is.

[sasquatch76]

A step ahead of you Foto Joe...lol. I have a thermometer on the way, I also remelted and fluxed the lead with paraffin (I also stir with a wood stick) then ingot-ized it. Pot is clean now too.

Now, I can't be certain there is no zinc in this lead, I bought 50 lbs from a guy on Ebay, labeled as WW lead, so your guess is as good as mine. How would I tell if it had zinc? The 50/50 solder was 50% lead 50% tin. Also had a little more than 2 lbs in the pot so that may have affected the mix....it probably did, my fault. I do have about 5 lbs of COWW ingots I smelted my self, I know there's no zinc in it, and I plan to try it next. Taking a step back, reassessing things, and getting essential equipment and components.

I believe it's not the mold also. Which brings me to the next thing, I found out I was loading the cartridges too long, OAL 1.250". I've loaded up some test rounds with 4.5 grs of Titegroup at 1.200", I believe this may end my tumbling problem, we'll see. I don't know if I said this before but I have some Lee 230gr LTC flat nose that are also .449, I got them from a friend. They shoot fine out of my 1911 and are loaded to 1.200".

[fryboy]

hmmmmm .... a few things come to mind , one is a higher pressure load will obturate‎ the base more than than a milder one will ( all other things being equal ) softer alloy will also obturate‎ more than a harder one will ( again all things being equal ) softer alloy will also usually cast smaller diameters than an alloy with more tin or antimony in it , pressure pouring usually makes a bigger casting and if tin rich often fins in conventional molds ( in the vent lines ) yes i know i'm just rambling but ..if it helps [shrugz]

[sasquatch76]

Thanks fryboy, it does help, I'll take all the advice I can get, by all means ramble on.

[Foto Joe]

Zinc: I've never gotten any in the melt but my understanding is that it will have the consistency of cottage cheese, i.e. "Lumps". Zinc melts at a higher temperature but I would think that if the lead and zinc were brought up to the appropriate temperature that zinc would then alloy into the lead and would no longer look like cottage cheese. Keep in mind that this theory comes directly out of thin air with no facts or experience to back it up.

I'm assuming that you're shooting these out of a 1911. An excessive OAL won't make the boolit too small to touch the rifling I'm afraid. The OAL that you mentioned isn't out of hand for any 1911 that I own. The tumbling issue is simply because the boolit isn't engaging the rifling on the way down the tube. Obturation could sort of solve the problem but the gist of the issue is that the boolits are too small, period, end of story. The friends .449's don't make sense and I'm afraid that I can't address that phenomenon.

When you get your thermometer let us know what you find out and if anything changes.

[cali4088]

If your lead is like oatmeal, it has zinc contamination. It will also give you lots of colors. Sulfur has the ability to remoive zinc from alloyed lead. Be careful though, that stuff is very toxic when burned

[sasquatch76]

Oh wow, this lead may have zinc in it then. I noticed at max temp the top of the melt turned rainbow colored, also get some "oatmeal like" stuff on top, but when I skim it off, shiny lead underneath. I'll see if I can get a pic of the melt. But if there's zinc contamination it wouldn't form bullets at all would it? These bullets look great, just too small at .449". I'm gonna be really upset if I bought 50 lbs of zinc contaminated lead....grrrr....sasquatch will be most unhappy.

[sasquatch76]

Oh yeah, forgot. Loaded up some of my boolits for a comparison.

http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=376&d=1389896255

On the left a 230gr .449" TC loaded with 5.0grs of Titegroup, 1.200" OAL, nice clean hole.
On the right my 230gr .449" RN loaded with 5.0grs of Titegroup, 1.200" OAL, tumbled and hit sideways.

I just don't get it. Maybe the flat nose of the TC boolit obturates more?

[cali4088]

No sasquach, you said you had old lead pipe. Thats pure lead, That doesnt have zinc in it. If you have it at a high temp then your lead will oxidize and turn colors. Turn down the heat and it will slowly turn to gold then back to silver. That oatmeal you have at the top is most likely antimony. Flux it back in

If you have zinc in it, your spout would be clogged instantly.

[sasquatch76]

Cali4088, I don't have lead pipe. The lead I have I got from Ebay, it's supposed to be COWW lead.

Here's a pic of the stuff I skimmed off:
http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=377&d=1389914080

Here's the ingots I made from it when I emptied the pot:
http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=378&d=1389914662

[fryboy]

umm what you skimmed off ? throw it back into the pot remelt at a higher temp and flux the snot out of it , looks like your antimony is there in that pile

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

[cali4088]

Sorry, that lead pipe was from someone else. Thats antimony you're skimming off. Save that stuff for when you encounter pure lead and need to make it harder. What does COWW stand for? I see it thrown out here a lot. By the wrinkles on the side Id say you're not fluxing enough. it could also be that you're pouring your ingots with a ladle and its trying to cool faster than you pour.

[sasquatch76]

Thanks fryboy, real glad it's not zinc....whew. I'll smelt it back in and flux the "snot" out of it...lol. Probably won't have this problem when I get my thermometer.

[sasquatch76]

COWW= Clip-On Wheel Weights

[sasquatch76]

I up-ended the pot to pour those ingots, but it was rather cold outside when I did, so, that might explain the wrinkles. I just wanted to get the lead out of my pot and didn't even heat the ingot mold.

[fryboy]

if damp not heating a ingot mold can cause troubles perhaps nothing more than a bubble or few but it can be as violent as a tinsel fairy wet umm fart ( under high pressure ) , the wrinkles because the mold and possibly the alloy was cold dont really matter in the overall aspect of ingots and remelt just fine , if you do the pencil test ( or some other hardness test ) i'm fairly certian that the ingots you made that you skimmed that pile off of will be a bit softer than say a ingot of coww that i or another member may have and the umm dross is perhaps also a bit harder than the ingots you cast from that pot , the loss of antimony will ,as stated before , make your castings both heavier ( as a higher Pb content alloy is heavier than with more antimony or tin ) it's also a smaller casting , i have a lyman 452-374 DV HP mold , it barely cast big enough for my barrels with a very soft alloy but it's both soft enough to obrutate and expand the wicked HP cavity , if i make it from a harder alloy ( such as straight ww's ) it cast both fatter and lighter but doesnt expand nearly as well ( also tends to shear a bit more than the softer more malleable alloy that i use )
the two problem with running hotter is usually during smelting and unsorted ww's - a zinc one would melt , hence even i who has a thermometer tend to snip every ww i get , but unlike many i dont find too may :(
the second problem is that tin oxidizes faster at higher temps , if only making ingots this can be negated by fluxing the snot out of it just before pouring ingots
the same problem applies when casting ( the tin loss ) at higher temps but another aspect rears it's ugly head besides boolit frosting that if light does no harm- especially for tumble lubing , and that's that i have actually had castings that didnt fill out when either ( or both ) the mold and alloy was too hot , as if the molten alloy actually shrinks away from hot spots inside the cavities when casting , while yours look like they have some frosting it doesnt look too severe ( from what i can see ) all i can say is persevere and eventually you'll be well on your way to success ( ie; hang in there amigo )

[sasquatch76]

Thanks again fryboy. More knowledge for me to cram into my skull. It's getting full....lol.

Also, I had those two boolits that came out to .454" for some reason. I lubed them, let them dry, then sized them. And here's the problem: Can somebody tell me why a Lee .452" sizing die would size my boolit to .449"? Because that's exactly what happened.

[Wag]

Thanks again fryboy. More knowledge for me to cram into my skull. It's getting full....lol.

Also, I had those two boolits that came out to .454" for some reason. I lubed them, let them dry, then sized them. And here's the problem: Can somebody tell me why a Lee .452" sizing die would size my boolit to .449"? Because that's exactly what happened.

I'm starting to think your micrometer/caliper needs to be calibrated.

--Wag--

[fryboy]

i'm with wag , i too am beginning to wonder about the means AND method of measuring them .... my old starrett does pretty fair but ... i can cram it a bit and if i do it throws off my measurement , these two links arent the best but in essence a basic operation of

http://www.tfttools.com/Micrometer%20Manual.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHqaLMEHlnE

calibration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dZaHBeD7Ag

as for a lee sizing die .... they may vary ( in the beginning anyways ) eg; they may not quite size to what their spec's state, they can also ( according to some ) build up a layer of lead on the inside , i've not had that happen personally but did read of it somewheres here on this forum

i'm not doubting your reading of the mic skills as those are pretty much standard but the operation of can vary ( please note my above possibility of "cramming" it ) like reloading consistency plays a large part , lead unlike some other metals ( and especially with the micro grooves ) can and will have a "crush factor" , i'd also suggest trying as lees states to try them with two coats of LLA ( even tho recluse's recipe is vastly superior ) with no sizing , even just a couple of clip fulls you may note better results [shrugz]

.
.
....
now about that "full head" syndrome ..... indeed often, and especially at first, it can seem overwhelming yet given time ( and experience ) it becomes old hat ( before you even know it actually ) i suggest practicing a bit with the mic and remember it should be a slip fit not a " i have to force it" in there type thing

btw ? i we managed to help then you're quite welcome

[sasquatch76]

I'm starting to think your micrometer/caliper needs to be calibrated.

--Wag--

My caliper is accurate, just checked it.

[bigtee]

Seems like I always have to recycle several before they start looking good.

[Wag]

My caliper is accurate, just checked it.

Step ahead of me. Last possibility I can think of.

--Wag--

[David2011]

I let a puddle form on top also.

The puddle is crucial to a good boolit. You should see the puddle suck down as the boolit cools, shrinks and solidifes. Without the 'liquid reserve' on top of the cavity the boolit will not be full size or well filled. The photo of yor ingots has the appearance of pure lead. No one can do a good eyeball analysis of an alloy but pure lead has a look about it that tends to be very shiny in ingot form. Perhaps you can recombine the antimony as suggested. Maybe use some sawdust to flux. There is a big thread about fluxing with sawdust.

Your boolits look very soft from the way they distorted against your backstop. I know you're using a Lee mold so this is just food for thought. Lyman only claims that you will get the correct diameter casting by using Lyman #2 alloy which is 90% lead, 5% tin and 5% antimony. That's more tin than necessary but it's their standard. The mix of your alloy can have a coniderable effect on the size of the boolit.

You can use a good name brand jacketed bullet as a test standard for your caliper. Good bullets are rarely off-diameter.

David

[sasquatch76]

Thanks for the info David. I'm going to get a bag of pine shavings to insulate my melt when I recombine the antimony. I'll flux with it also.
My thermometer will be here in a day or two, it's obvious I've been running my pot way too hot, so that should make a big difference.
I have an exactly 1", precision cut, steel rod I use to test my caliper with, so I know it's on.

[sasquatch76]

I drove one of the .449" boolits through my barrel.
http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=380&d=1390014859

It has clear rifling grooves cut into the bullet all the way around.

Another thing is, I don't see how the load books say to load these to 1.200" OAL. That puts the crimp area well above the lube grooves and on to the curve of the boolit.

I loaded 5 more test rounds, seated the boolit to the very top of the lube grooves, came to 1.248" OAL.

Dropped one into my 1911 barrel to see what the head spacing was like, looks good to me.
http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=379&d=1390014749

I'm trying to solve the problem through a process of elimination, whether it's casting the boolits ,load data, or maybe both.

[Echd]

Don't worry about the load OAL from the book too much.

[Sweetpea]

Don't worry about the load OAL from the book too much.

UNLESS...

You are seating shorter, REDUCE CHARGES!!!

[sasquatch76]

I shot the 5 rounds I loaded to 1.248"OAL. This time, they still tumbled and keyholed, just not as bad, they were a little more accurate, some lube in the barrel after firing but not much leading at all. I think I'm on to something here. I'm going to keep increasing my OAL up to max 1.275" and see if I can get them to fly strait.

[sasquatch76]

Tested the max OAL rounds today.

Only two rounds out of five actually hit on the paper plate I used as a target.
I was able to recover those two bullets.
http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=381&d=1390159874

The one on the left looks like it hit correctly, while the one on the right tumbled.
Now, did the one on the left hit that way by luck? I don't know. But I'm willing to bet the others tumbled and keyholed like the one on the right.

What I don't understand is why the bullet I drove through my barrel clearly had rifling marks on it yet the ones I shoot don't.
Looks like I'm not going to solve this problem through load data.
I'm going to have to wait until the weather warms up so I can get to solving my casting problems and get these bullets to the correct diameter.

[DRNurse1]

Sasquatch:

What are you using to trap your boolits? I have not had any boolits bend in a trap or in a sand mound. The only way they come back intact are from a water trap. You did not say how far out your targets are placed. If you are tumbling inside 15 yards, the rounds are seriously under power or they do not fit your BBL.

[sasquatch76]

My backstop is a rubber mining belt, behind it I have stacks of tires filled with sand. Most of the time these boolits get stuck in the backstop. I'm shooting at around 25ft - 30ft. This last load I used 4.5grs of Titegroup, I've used up to 5.0grs before with the same results, tumbling and keyholing.

[hammer58]

I shot the 5 rounds I loaded to 1.248"OAL. This time, they still tumbled and keyholed, just not as bad, they were a little more accurate, some lube in the barrel after firing but not much leading at all. I think I'm on to something here. I'm going to keep increasing my OAL up to max 1.275" and see if I can get them to fly strait.

Sasquatch, I have been reading this thread with interest because I use the same 230 gr TL boolits in my 1911, and I am very interested in what you find out. I load mine to a O.A.L. of 1.275 and have had no problems at all. I am using straight COWW's and am very happy with the results.
My question would be to you guys (everyone) is if the boolits are not seated deeply enough, how much does that affect muzzle velocity? I have never had a chance to chrono my rounds, but they "feel" very close to factory. BTW, I load 5 gr HP-38.

BTW, I use the Lee 2 cavity TL mould and a RCBS dipper from a 10 pound pot.

Keep the wisdom coming guys! Great info!

[Foto Joe]

For a given charge, let's say 4.5gr of Acme the pressure will decrease as OAL increases. The speed at which smokeless powder burns is dependent on the ambient pressure of it's environment. At one atmosphere (where we are now unless you're under water), smokeless burns with a fizzle and isn't really impressive. Once it's inside of a cartridge though things are different. When the primer goes off it initially pressurizes the cartridge as well ignites the smokeless powder which burns and creates more pressure which increases the burn rate of the powder which causes more pressure right up until either the powder is exhausted or the boolit moves forward thus releasing the pressure. If the boolit is seated farther out then when the primer initially detonates there is more volume available inside of the cartridges thereby reducing the effective initial pressure, this will also means that the powder has more volume around it to pressurize thereby reducing the pressure and slowing the burn rate of the powder.

This is why boolit "set-back" or a too short OAL can cause dangerous pressure spikes. Less interior volume to absorb pressure means higher initial and subsequent pressures which can cause gun and body parts to scatter.

A couple of useless bits of trivia for those who are interested: If you look closely at the floor of an indoor range you will find a considerable amount of "un-burned" powder. Once the boolit begins it's travel forward and pressure is released then combustion of the powder pretty much ceases and most of any of the un-burned powder is ejected out of the muzzle. Also a way to tell immediately if you have a light or ineffective powder burn with an auto-loader is being hit in the face by powder when you fire the gun. The brass will still have un-burned powder in it when it is ejected and that will fly rearward.

[myg30]

Sasquach, Just for giggles your using a 6 cav mold right. Next cast session, as you dump them keep them in order and weigh each of them on your powder scale. please post what they weigh. Some at the start and finish of your casting session. Also measure them at 9oclock and at 12 oclock but NOT on the seam to see if their out of round. This .449 is killing me too.
Im curious to hear what they weigh and with which lead mix your using. Your ingots do look like pure lead as mentioned.
Also, When you flux the pot and stir it, scrape all around the side and the bottom and the stuff that floats on top, MASH it against the side of the pot a few times. What you should have left to remove looks like gray dust or dark dust. If you use saw dust from pine wood, let it burn and turn black and if nessary light it with a match let it burn off and stir that into the lead and mix real good. The burnt stuff is what your fluxing with. Again you should only be removing dust like remains from the pot and wasting no lead. Don't over flux either ! Once good or twice on real dirty ww's should be enough.
One more thing, if you have any FMJ bullets laying around, any caliber, can you measure them with the same caliper or mic you measure your boolits with. Factory FMJ's should read spot on in diameter.

Let us know what you find out. Im betting heavier weights and smaller dia and possible out of round. Just my guess. Maybe a bad cavity or two. That might explain the .454 odd ball you cast. Im going to look at the loading manuals for data just for my curiosity too.

Good luck, be safe always, Mike

[sasquatch76]

myg30, I don't have a scale capable of weighing boolits, all I have is a Lee Safety Scale I use for reloading.

Now here's something new. And I'm going to feel real dumb if this was the problem all along.
I have some Hornady 250gr XTP. They're supposed to be .452" but my caliper is showing them at .449".
I re-calibrated my caliper using the Hornady bullet and all my cast boolits are now .452" exactly. Now, either the Hornady bullets are not .452" or my caliper was out of whack by .003". Possibly the way I've been calibrating my caliper wasn't working. [smilie=b: That still doesn't explain why there are no rifling marks on my boolits. Anybody have a Hornady 250gr XTP they can measure for me to confirm this?

[Wag]

You'd be much better off getting a few measurement standards to use to calibrate your micrometer/caliper. They are usually sold as stainless steel rods or blocks and if you take care of them, they'll always be exactly the right size.

One of the problems I always have is making sure I'm measuring the correct dimension on the bullet so I constantly rotate it around, 90 degrees at a time in order to be sure I'm getting the right measurement. On occasion, I've caught myself tilting the bullet ever so slightly but rechecking a few times will show that fairly readily.

That said, you're measurements are reading low so I doubt you're having that problem. See if you can find some standards to get.

Here's an example (http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Measuring-Inspecting/Calibration-Layout-Machine-Setup-Tools/Calibrators-Calibration-Masters?navid=12107681). I don't know anything about this company and the pricing is scary high. Fleabay might be your good friend.

--Wag--

[sasquatch76]

I also measured a Hornady .451" 185gr XTP, it was .002" off. So I don't know what's going on with my caliper or if it's the bullets themselves. Still looking for someone to measure these 45 XTP's so I can get the correct measurement for them and calibrate my caliper using that.

[Foto Joe]

I would suggest that in your travels maybe stop by an automotive shop or better yet a machine shop or fabricator and have them measure your boolits.

[sasquatch76]

Or, I could just get another caliper, I suspect this one is wonky. :veryconfu

[sasquatch76]

Could part of my problem be caused by my use of a Lee Factory Crimp Die? I've read that it can cause problems with loading cast boolits.

[Spawn-Inc]

I also measured a Hornady .451" 185gr XTP, it was .002" off. So I don't know what's going on with my caliper or if it's the bullets themselves. Still looking for someone to measure these 45 XTP's so I can get the correct measurement for them and calibrate my caliper using that.

just measure 5 of the same bullet (45 cal 185gr XTP) and got the same as you .451" i'm using cheap calipers that alot of company's rebadge.

[fryboy]

a heavy crimp with the lee pistol crimp die can indeed swage your carefully sized castings down , i try to use only enough crimp to remove the flare from belling , usually the case neck tension is sufficient to retain the boolit , best way to tell ( even with a umm wonky mic ) is measure one before seating and lock the mic , seat crimp and then pull the projectile and mic , if it's smaller you'll plainly see it

[sasquatch76]

OK, here's what I did. I expanded an empty case and seated one of my boolits in it. I adjusted my factory crimp die up so it won't crimp at all, it just smooths out the case so it will chamber. Caliper, (which is calibrated now I believe), shows .471" around case mouth. Bullet seems like it's secure in the case, so i doubt I'll get any set back. Drop tested into my 1911 barrel, chambers perfectly. What do you all think, is this the right way to do it?

[myg30]

Sounds good. So what do your "As cast " boolits measure before any sizing ?
Also Are they round ? Now that you have your calipers set.

Mike

[Pb Burner]

The rifling marks on the boolit driven through the barrel, and lack of marks on a fired boolit was making me wonder if its getting swaged down in the case. When you mentioned the use of the lee factory crimp die I was thinking this is the problem. Maybe pull apart a loaded round and measure the boolit. The Lee factory crimp dies for pistol cartridges have a sizing ring in them. Or, if your not sure of your measurements, load some rounds without using the factory crimp die, use a regular taper crimp, and try those out. You really need to get a 0 - 1" micrometer, fleabay has them listed all the time.
My money is on the factory crimp die being your main problem, but I'm no expert....
I'm very interested in hearing what you do that fixes your problem as I load and shoot 45 acp, I just haven't cast them yet as I'm still working on the hoard of bullets I have had since before I started casting.

[sasquatch76]

OK, no factory crimp at all. A friend of mine pointed out that my bullet seating die wasn't adjusted properly, so it wasn't applying a roll crimp. Got it adjusted properly, and the cartridges come out perfect. Let's hope this solves my problems.

[fryboy]

ummm auto pistol rounds should get no roll crimp as they headspace on the case mouth , if any crimp at all it should be a very modest taper crimp

[sasquatch76]

Fryboy, my Lee bullet seating die also crimps, whether that's a roll crimp or not, I don't know, I only have experience with the Lee factory crimp die. Without any crimp the cartridge will not chamber in my 1911.

[fryboy]

the lee regular die taper crimps , the factory crimp die ( as stated by others ) has a carbide ring that resizes the whole loaded cartridge , lyman makes a die that roll crimps and it can be more of a umm challenge to set the crimp correctly using that die set ( it was also intended for the 45 auto rim is why it has a roll crimp on it ,just for more almost useless information lolz )

[sasquatch76]

So the Lee bullet seating die taper crimps? Will that work for my cast boolits?

[Pb Burner]

Yes, the dies for autos have a taper crimp(in the seater die) and the dies for rimmed/revolver cartridges have a roll crimp. I would recommend seating boolits then back out the seating stem and reset die to apply a crimp. Don't over crimp, use you barrel as a gauge for how much crimp to apply. Enough crimp so the cartridge easily drops into the chamber.

[sasquatch76]

Thanks Pb, I think I got it down now. Loaded up a few test rounds to try.

[sasquatch76]

Well, I tested the bullets I loaded. Loaded 5 with 4.5grs of Titegroup, 1.250" OAL.

http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=382&d=1390501775

Shot at 25-30ft. Those were the only two that hit the target, probably my fault.
But it sure looks like they flew and hit right this time. Also no trace of lead in my 1911 barrel.
I just wish the other shots would've hit, would've been nice to recover a boolit too.
It might be a little early to claim victory, but I do believe I found the problem,
just have to tweak these a little more maybe.

[Team CK]

good that ya got it figured out...lol

[sasquatch76]

Yep, thanks a lot CK! And everyone else that helped me out, thank you very much! :drinks:

[sasquatch76]

Another test. I loaded 8 this time for a full mag. Same powder charge, increased the OAL to 1.260", and added a bit more crimp. Shot at 25-30ft again.

http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=383&d=1390510189

3 shots hit the bulls eye, 2 hit a little outside it. Looks like they're hitting great, no tumbling or key-holing.

http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=384&d=1390510497

Had three flyers, once again, probably my fault. But they made nice holes.

http://www.gunnook.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=385&d=1390510693

Recovered one boolit. Looks like it has clear rifling marks. And my 1911's barrel is clean, no signs of leading.

Yep, I think this is a good load. :bigsmyl2:[smilie=w:

[myg30]

Im glad you got it going. Now enjoy.

Mike

[Pb Burner]

Looks a lot better than before! And my 100th post goes to a fellow West Virginian!
By the way....are you shooting outdoors?

[sasquatch76]

Yeah, I shoot outside at my range. It was 12 degrees with 8" of snow on the ground when I shot today. That's dedication! ;) BTW, it's 1 degree here now. Can't wait for this cold to go away so i can get outside and get some casting done.

[Pb Burner]

Oh man, your tougher than me! I'm not heading to the range till it warms up a little.

[sasquatch76]

Got my Lyman thermometer ,Lyman 49th Ed. reloading handbook, and Lee 2 cavity TL452-230-TC mold today. I'm set to go as soon as this frigid weather goes away.