.223 vs 5.56

[Ghost101]

I was able to pickup a Savage Axis xp in .223 today. I was hoping to fire my many 5.56 rounds thru this rifle until it dawned on me these two rounds are different. I don't know if it is safe to shoot my 5.56 rounds. With the wonderful knowledge base here, I was hopping to get some answers. It was to late to call the factory, west coast vs east coast to get my answer. Many of the rds. that I have reloaded for the 5.56 were done using the load data out of reloading books for the .223, so they shouldn't be a problem. Any help so I can take my new toy to the range this weekend an not wait for a call to Savage.

Ghost101

[aspangler]

Just make sure the OAL is for 223 and not 5.56 and you will be ok. The 5.56 has a longer throat so the bullet can be seated farther out than the 223. If you l;oaded to 223 specs, you should be fine.

[JSnover]

Check the military rifle section. They just had a pretty extensive thread about this.

[southpaw]

To my understanding the 5.56 shells are loaded hotter. Due to the longer throat in the 5.56 chambers this ok. Not so much in the 223 chamber. Think on the lines of what Mr. Weatherby did.

If you loaded the shells to 223 specs then you should be ok. I wouldn't fire any 5.56 factory ammo in it.

Jerry Jr.

[bmortell]

some say military type brass has thicker walls so you may get a tad bit higher pressure than would in 223 brass

[Larry Gibson]

Ghost101

if your 5.56 ammo has 55 gr bullets then shoot it in the Savage.

If the ammo has heavier bullets then make sure the twist is 9" or faster.

This discussion gets beat to death unnecessarily. Yes there are lots of various differences in twists, throats and rifling for the .223/5.56. And yes the maximum psi for the 5.56 is higher than the .223. However, that maximum psi is not higher than the .308W, 243, 7-06, 7mm Magnum, 300 win mag etc. ad nauseum. Does your Savage also come chambered in those? If so then why would it be "dangerous" to fire a 5.56 of the same psi in your Savage? Point is it wouldn't.

Now I've shot thousands of 5.56 M193 (that's with the 55 gr bullet) out of numerous .223 rifles such as Colt Sako's, Remington M700s, Remington M788s, Winchester M70s, Ruger #3s and M77s, Contender Carbines and even a couple Savage M24Vs. Never had a lick of problem.

I also measure the psi of .223 Remington and 5.56 cartridges with a M43 Oehler in the Contender barrel and have not found 5.56 psi's to exceed the safe use range of any of those rifles. Actually I've found some 5.56 (US made M193) that actually has less psi than some commercial .223 ammunition. Just because the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the .223 is 56,000 psi and for the 5.56 it is 60,000 psi do not believe that all such ammunition is loaded to those psi's. Just doesn't happen that way. Most are below, sometimes well below, those MAPs.

So, if you feel your Savage is up to the same strength and quality as a Remington, Winchester or Ruger..........

Larry Gibson

[Old Dawg]

I just got an Axis .223 for Christmas. Still waiting on sights. Savage says their chambers are compatible with both .223 and 5.56 ammo.

[Ghost101]

Thanks for all the replies. Two things I hadn't consider are the OAL an the bullet weight. I will check my loaded rounds, as they are unmarked. I know but they were loaded a few yrs back. My ARs have been shooting gifted ammo for the past couple of yrs. Now to find a good mold for this caliber.

Ghost101

[steve4102]

Ghost, are you talking about Factory 5.56 ammo or are you talking about handloads with 5.56 brass?

If you are talking handloads with 5.56 brass then you have nothing to worry about as the brass is identical both internally and externally.

If you loaded your handloads with 5.56 data to 62K psi, then you might want to load a few down to 223 pressures and work back up.

Max OAL for the 5.56 is the same as it is for the 223(2.260). If your loads are 2.260 or less they will fit in either chamber. 5.56 factory ammo is Not loaded longer than the 223, 2.260, it still has to fit the AR Mags.

[khmer6]

You should be fine as long as they chamber. The axis comes in a lot bigger calibers. Hell I think it's even a long action instead of a short action in the axis model

[Ghost101]

I was talking about 5.56 rds. loaded to .223 spec. I will measure the length an pull a few boolits to see what gr they are. Although the booklet that it came with states that Savage used a Federal 69 grain Sierra Match King BTHP, for evaluation. (just found this in there)
But it would be nice to know if the Axis would be fine with factory 5.56 rds. I haven't reloaded this caliber for a number of years, as the ammo was pretty cheap. I am looking forward too playing with it once again. And hope I can find a suitable mold to add to the experience.


Ghost101

[NSP64]

Check Midsouth shooters supply to see if they have any 'Bator' molds in stock. Lee style 2 and 6 cavity mold.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/searchMSS.asp?searchInfo=bator&GO.x=0&GO.y=0

Looks like out of stock

[Lloyd Smale]

you arent going to hurt a bolt gun with 5.56 ammo. Ive done it for 20 years and still have my eyes. to me its more an argument guys on the internet that are trying to impress people with there knowlege bring up.

[NSP64]

Looks like your gun is a 1-9 twist. Stay with the lighter boolits.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/axis

[steve4102]

If you are going to contact Savage, do Not mention handloads/reloads. Many companies will void the warranty if they know or suspect handloaded ammo was used in them.

[JSnover]

If you are going to contact Savage, do Not mention handloads/reloads. Many companies will void the warranty if they know or suspect handloaded ammo was used in them.

Likewise 5.56 in a .223 rifle. As safe as it may be, Savage's lawyers might not let the company say yes.
Now I'm curious. Does the owners' manual say anything about it, other than general warnings about sharp sticks and such?

[steve4102]

Likewise 5.56 in a .223 rifle. As safe as it may be, Savage's lawyers might not let the company say yes.
Now I'm curious. Does the owners' manual say anything about it, other than general warnings about sharp sticks and such?


From Savages Web site.

USE ONLY THE CORRECT AMMUNITION THAT IS
STAMPED ON THE SIDE OF THE BARREL.
THE USE OF RELOADS, HANDLOADS, MILITARY
SURPLUS, OR ANY OTHER COMMERCIAL /
NONCOMMERCIAL AMMUNITION NOT
MANUFACTURED TO SAAMI (SPORTING ARMS AND
AMMUNITION MANUFACTURERS’ INSTITUTE, INC.)/
ANSI (AMERICAN NATIONAL STANDARDS
INSTITUTE) SPECIFICATIONS WILL VOID
THE WARRA

[C.F.Plinker]

Is your barrel stamped for .223 OR for .223/5.56. If the former it was designed for the pressures allowed by SAAMI in 223 Remington cartridges and not the higher pressures found in 5.56mm military loadings. If the latter, you can use ammunition loaded to the military pressures as well as the commercial 223 Remington loadings.

Edit: it looks like Steve and I were posting at the same time.

[BruceB]

Is"..... it was designed for the pressures allowed by SAAMI in 223 Remington cartridges and not the higher pressures found in 5.56mm military loadings. "

The rifle was NOT "designed for" any particular cartridge.

The factory takes a STANDARD action, and screws-on a STANDARD .22-caliber barrel, and chambers it with a STANDARD reamer for the cartridge involved. The only "design" component is the marketing sector trying to "design" a package that will sell on the market.

The actions ARE designed (and over-engineered) to contain pressure variations FAR higher than the piddling differences between the various .223/5.56 loadings.

[Larry Gibson]

BruceB

We keep saying that but many want to go by the lawyer driven get out of warranty and/or avoid lawsuit statements by the firearms makers.

Others buy off on SAAMI's admonition not to use the 5.56 in the .223 w/o really knowing why but on the "assumption" it must be "dangerous". The reason is it is SAAMI policy not to advise use of any cartridge in another similar chamber unless it has a lower pressure such as the 38 SPL in the 357 Mag chambers.

Then there are those that want to believe the pontifications of the 5.56 vs .223 and the .308W vs 7.62 NATO by the internet experts.....right or wrong.

I prefer to use what works based on actual experience and comprehensive testing. But then that's just me I guess........

Larry Gibson

[mpmarty]

+ 100% Larry has nailed it.

[khmer6]

Completely agreed. When was the last time you saw 5.56 reloading dies? If it chambers shoot it. It might have a shorter throat or slower twist, so check to see how heavy you can go on the projectile

[Artful]

The rifle was NOT "designed for" any particular cartridge.

The factory takes a STANDARD action, and screws-on a STANDARD .22-caliber barrel, and chambers it with a STANDARD reamer for the cartridge involved. The only "design" component is the marketing sector trying to "design" a package that will sell on the market.

The actions ARE designed (and over-engineered) to contain pressure variations FAR higher than the piddling differences between the various .223/5.56 loadings.
So which one is the standard reamer?
http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
PTG 223 Rem Match
Clymer 223 Rem
PTG 223 Rem
JGS 223 Wylde
JGS 5.56 Compass Lake
JGS 5.56 Nato
PTG 5.56 Nato
Clymer 5.56 Nato

[BruceB]

I prefer to use what works based on actual experience and comprehensive testing. But then that's just me I guess........

Larry Gibson

No, Larry, it's not just you. There's quite a bunch of us who accept the REALITY of the situations regarding the .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 NATO. All the lawyer-generated crapola in the world will not change the FACTS.... which are that the cartridges are simply interchangeable.... barring such things as the bullet weight vs rifling twist consideration.

Personally, I never went to the extent which you did, obtaining the Oehler instrumentation to take pressure readings. Instead, a considerable succession of rifles over the decades have offered their own testimony.

I'm quite satisfied that , over the fifty-odd years of experience, I have NOT placed either my rifles or my body parts in any jeopardy whatever.... and I have benefitted in the bargain with excellent performance and long loading lives from my components.

Maybe someday the truth will get around?

[Gohon]

I wouldn't call a 10,000 CUP difference a piddling difference in pressure. As for internet experts, if you're posting or reading this forum then you are feeding at the same trough. Funny how some constantly tell others to be safe and follow the data when reloading, but turn right around and tell the same people to ignore the manufactures warning concerning what not to shoot in their guns.

[MaryB]

Would be interesting for someone to measure barrel diameters over the entire length and see if the chamber area is any thicker on a 5.56 savage barrel compared to the .223 axis barrel, chances are none, then drop a 5.56 reamer in and see if it fits, that is the only spot there will probably be a difference. I would guess the barrels are designed to handle 5.56 and are only reamed to .223

[Larry Gibson]

Gohon

There is not a 10,000 C.U.P. "difference". You are either comparing the older way of measuring with the newer way (peizo-transducers) of measuring pressure or you've some wrong internet figures. When measured on the same equipment (the peizo-transducer or strain gauge equipment) the factory adhered to MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the .223 is 55,000 psi. On the same equipment the MAP is 60,000 psi (60K for the gas case mouth transducer and 62K for a standard peizo-transducer) for the 5.56 NATO. And all such factory and military loaded cartridges are not loaded to the MAP, actually most aren't loaded to MAP. As I've stated, I have measured quite a bit of both types of ammunition in the same test barrel with the same chamber (a tight SAAMI minimum spec chamber) and can show you .223 factory ammo that has a higher psi than some 5.56 military ammo so I am not depending on internet "information" but 1st hand data from actual testing.

I've also been loading my own .223 to old Sierra, Hornady, Lyman, etc., data levels that were for the .223/5.56 cartridge (newer data in those manuals is lower for the .223 as it now adheres to the SAAMI MAP) and they test out in the 58 - 60,000 psi. Those are quite safe levels in any modern action the .223 may be chambered in. Understand that when the industry says not to shoot 5.56 in .223 chambers because of potentially higher pressures they simply mean pressures above the SAAMI MAP which is there self proscribed limit.

Now, let me ask a simple question since you brought up C.U.P. pressure measurement; the SAAMI C.U.P. MAP for both the .223 and the .308W is 52,000. Yet the SAAMI peizo-transducer psi for the .223 is 55,000 and for the .308W it is 62,000 psi. So why is not the psi for the peizo-transducer MAPs the same for both cartridges as it is with the C.U.P. measurements for both cartridges?

Don't worry about the answer as SAAMI doesn't have a good answer either. Point is there is no reason the .223 can not be safe at 60,000 psi and, in fact, it is quite safe at that psi......which is what psi the top end 5.56 loads generate.

Larry Gibson

[steve4102]

I wouldn't call a 10,000 CUP difference a piddling difference in pressure. .

Neither would I, but the difference is not 10,000 CUP it is actually a mere 7K PSI. The 223 has a MAP of 55K psi, the 5.56 has an MAP of 62K psi. Not enough to blow up or even damage any modern action rifle.

Here is a little Pressure test done by Barnes bullets.
Note: there is no earth shattering dangerous pressures involved. Nothing a Savage 223 can't handle.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/steve4102/barnes-pressure.png

My point in posting the Savage warning was only to inform the OP that having a conversation with Savage about handloads could end up with a voided warranty.

[Ghost101]

The Savage did fine this morning with both .223 and 5.56. I'm glad that I asked, because I learned more then I expected.
Thank you

Ghost101

[Larry Gibson]

As we used to say when I was an LEO investigator; case closed.

Larry Gibson