Lee C452-300-RF...What Minimum Velocity Is Needed?

[Southern Shooter]

I have seen this boolit referred to quite a bit on various forums. Often, it is discussed in terms of protection against large animals. Specifically, those bears and other large animals of the Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and Alaskan areas.

Say, with the proper Bhn, how fast does this boolit need to move in order to be an effective defensive tool against larger, dangerous animals?

Reviewing some of my past post, you can see that I am in search of the best balance of boolit design, weight, velocity, powder, primer, etc. for my Ruger SRH Alaskan .454 Casull. The gun, which I was not fond of at first, has really grown on me and I am determined to work with this short-barrel revolver until I find the "best fit" for backcountry personal defense while fishing and backpacking. Anyway, I thought that this boolit might be worth investigating.
92864

I have the three boolit molds below, already. I am just very curious about the C452-300-RF as a compromise of speed and weight.

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Accurate Mold 45-360D (clip-on wheel weights @ 360 grains)

92915
Accurate Mold 45-360C (clip-on wheel weights @ 360 grains)

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Lee 452-255-RF (clip-on wheel weights @ 265 grains)


P.S.
Long guns are not an option. I am focusing on the specific 2 1/2" revolver with a 1 in 24" twist, mentioned above.

Thank you :grin:

[DougGuy]

That's sorta complex in a way. Obviously you want as much power as you can get, but then you gotta be able to control the gun and get it back on target for follow up shots as fast as you can. For a carry pistol, it will be hard to get much over 1200f/s with a short barrel, IF you can get that much. Longer barrel, maybe 1300f/s max on a good day. In a carbine, these really shine @1600-1800f/s.

It also depends on the animal. Black bear not a problem with a pistol even at 900f/s. Brown bear whole different story, whole lot more bear now.

Most of the threads I have read here about what gun/boolit to take to bear country have one common denominator, the better advice says take what you can shoot best since shot placement is still key. I shoot that same 300gr RF boolit in my Vaquero, and it's a handful in front of 22.5gr H110. Shooting hogs with it is one thing, but rapid fire on a large bear I would much rather have a levergun to be honest.

[Southern Shooter]

I agree that a long gun would be best. I actually have a Rossi Model 92 in .454 Casull. Very light, easy to handle and fast. But, it still is more in the way than helpful with trying to engage in backpacking, fishing or just milling around the campsite. And, I have no doubt that eventually I would accidently walk off and leave it leaning against a tree...and, THAT is when I would really need it. My luck. :o

As of now, I am getting an average 1,235 FPS with the 452-255-RF @ 265 grains with Blue Dot. With the 360 grain Accurate Mold and W296 the best so far is an average of 1,037 FPS.

What kind of velocity are you getting with 22.5gr of H110?

Any ideas that you would suggest?

[C. Latch]

I'm far from an expert but I did shoot the 452-300-rf a good bit this summer, and found that it isn't a terribly accurate bullet in my Blackhawk, and isn't stable at all past 50-75 yards at the speeds I was willing to push it (1250 tops) out of my gun (no idea what your twist rate is versus mine).

The 255 grain bullet, in contrast, is very stable even at lower speeds and in hindsight I wish I'd bought lead and primers instead of the 452-300 mold.

I ended up having a mold cut for me that had a smaller meplat than the 452-300, and I like it, but if I were you and was only interested in bear defense, at close range, I think I'd be fine with your 452-300 at 1200'fps. I figure recoil is brutal in your short revolver, though.

[reloader28]

We've been using 10gr of Unique and really like it. I didnt chrono these, but a friend of mine shot a coyote eating on the back of a dead cow with one of these at about 50yds with his pistol. It basically turned the coyote inside out, penetrated lengthwise thru the cow, bounced off a front leg bone and went into the dirt about 12". I used straight clip on WW.

[MtGun44]

1000-1100 fps will drive that boolit, regardless of BHN above about 10-12, all the way thru most
of the creatures on the North American continent, from almost any angle. 10 gr Unique
is usually accurate and puts the velocity of a 250 gr right at 1050 or so from a 4" bbl.

How much energy to you want to expend on the scenery?

Bill

[Southern Shooter]

MtGun44,
I figure that my 360 grain WFN boolits at 1,000 FPS + would penetrate well, also. But, I have heard a number of times that I need more velocity for the boolit to really do its job on large, dangerous animals. That I need to keep in mind this is not hunting/shooting an unsuspecting animal but, trying to stop an upset creature already aware of my presence.

Thanks

[C. Latch]

MtGun44,
I figure that my 360 grain RFN boolits at 1,000 FPS + would penetrate well, also. But, I have heard a number of times that I need more velocity for the boolit to really do its job on large, dangerous animals. That I need to keep in mind this is not hunting/shooting an suspecting animal but, trying to stop an upset creature already aware of my presence.

Thanks

I have a hard time imagining a newspaper blurb blaming a wilderness fisherman's bear-attack death on his choice of a 300-grain WFN bullet over a 360-grain WFN bullet.

[Changeling]

That 2 1/2inch barrel belonged on a riverboat in the 1800's at a poker game, not to stop a 1000 to 2000 pound grizely with enough speed to cover that 30 yards or so to you before you can pass a decent fart (witch there will be plenty of)!

You need to stop and think about what you are doing, 5 1/2 inch bbl minimum, 300 gr WFN (you're not hunting, trying to save your ****), 1100 -1250 fps will go completely through that bear ( as Bill said).
To Hell with what those other people have told you about the "need for speed".

Do all these things right, and if you are ever attacked by a bear and lucky enought to kill him before he turns you into about 3 medium size pieces of Sushi you can come back and show us pictures.

Above all practise, practise, practise till it's as natural as opening a beer.:wink:

[DougGuy]

What kind of velocity are you getting with 22.5gr of H110?

Any ideas that you would suggest?

Never chronied it but those were going through 32"+ of seasoned oak firewood lengthways and most penetrated the stack of wood behind the front stack that I was using for a backstop. This was with an SSK 340gr TC hardcast at bhn22 out of a 4 5/8" Vaquero. They will stop a running engine if you hit it just right. As you could guess, recoil was quite stiff.

The C-452-300-RF would go slightly faster. As far as ideas, for anything besides deer or elk, you will want it hardcast. COWW is hard enough, Lyman #2 is hard enough. These loads will easily penetrate a 14" standing pine and kill whatever is on the back side of it like the pine didn't even exist.

You got to figure the momentum also. A 300gr boolit which is likely closer to 320gr cast in Lyman #2 with it's gas check installed, in front of 22.5gr of H110 in a pistol, even a 4 5/8" barrel, carries a sh*tload of kinetic energy with it. That energy will carry that projectile quite a ways in any tissue and bone medium. You don't need the velocity of a 9mm for penetration. There is already enough momentum and energy in that boolit that you likely will never recover one in a 4 legged creature unless he is one of the biggest bears on the continent, and only if you shot him lengthways. If mine will go through damn near 3 FEET of oak, how many feet of flesh do you think it will take to stop one?

Edit: I didn't see what gun you wanted to use these in earlier until after I posted, but I thought I was asking a lot out of my 4 5/8" barrel. Sheesh you got 2 1/2" that really makes it hard to get much velocity but I guess the people at SR figured it out to at least get 1100f/s with some heavier Casull loads.

It's not like it won't do the job, but you have absolutely NO room for error in choosing your load AND most importantly, shot placement! Proof that the snubbie will get the job done (if you're a lucky shot!): http://teejaw.com/2010/08/30/bear-attack-in-alaska/

[Southern Shooter]

I think the capabilities of this short-barreled gun are underestimated. True, it will never reach the velocities of longer barreled guns...such was never expected. Its limitations were accepted early on. But, if it already can push 360 grains of lead at 1,037 fps on average with less than a max load, then I certainly believe it can reach the 1,100-1,250 fps range with a 300 grain boolit.

The impression I get is that there really has not been a lot of load development geared towards this gun. I am not so much interested in why it "will not work", but, in ways that its own specific potential can be reached.

At this point, I just wanted to know if the C452-300-RF would be acceptable as a defensive boolit in big animal country...how fast it would need to go to be effective.

DougGuy, thanks for your input. Yes, 3 feet of oak is a lot.

Thanks

[dubber123]

That 2 1/2inch barrel belonged on a riverboat in the 1800's at a poker game, not to stop a 1000 to 2000 pound grizely with enough speed to cover that 30 yards or so to you before you can pass a decent fart (witch there will be plenty of)!

You need to stop and think about what you are doing, 5 1/2 inch bbl minimum, 300 gr WFN (you're not hunting, trying to save your ****), 1100 -1250 fps will go completely through that bear ( as Bill said).
To Hell with what those other people have told you about the "need for speed".

Do all these things right, and if you are ever attacked by a bear and lucky enought to kill him before he turns you into about 3 medium size pieces of Sushi you can come back and show us pictures.

Above all practise, practise, practise till it's as natural as opening a beer.:wink:

When your 1,100 fps. minimum can be easily met in his 2-1/2" barrel, why does he need the longer barrel?

[MtGun44]

"But, I have heard a number of times that I need more velocity for the boolit to really do its job on large,
dangerous animals."

Don't overthink this. Lots of baloney out there.

A pistol is a power drill. It makes holes. Once the hole reaches the other side, what is the point of
more velocity? Not much shock happening at these velocities, just drilling holes thru vital systems.
Not really as complex as some want to make it.

Big holes, deep holes, well located holes.

Break something important.

The end.

Excerpt from Linebaugh Seminar Penetration Testing, wet newsprint.

Cartridge/ Boolit & wt/ velocity/ penetration in inches / comments

44 Special CPBC 255 1,031 22.5
44 Magnum (from a levergun) LBT 300 1,471 34.0
44 Magnum Keith 250 1,200 27.0 The bullet traveled straight and was undamaged Our test standard
44 Magnum LBT 300 1,520 30.0
44 Magnum LFN 340 1,320 32.0 Turned sideways

Note that Cast Perf Boolit Co (LBT style) penetrated 22.5 at 1031, Keith 250 penetrated 27 at 1200.
What more is needed? Put either in the right spot and you have succeeded, IMO. At 1520 fps with 300 gr you
get 3 inches more than the 250 Keith at 1200. Seems like a waste of time to me. Both make .430
cal holes. 320 fps more (hard to do, too!) gets 3 inches more???? Levergun twist may be different,
so it got 34 inches, still not a whole lot, like 25% more than 250 Keith at 1200. Which do you think
is faster shot to shot?

Note that the LFN turned sideways, but still penetrated deeply. Don't like turning sideways, so I avoid
the LFN style.

The warthog at left was hit with a Keith 250 at about 1200 fps (launched at 1300) at 75 yds. Exited
without any problems. They are not very big, really, but it would do the same on anything up to about
28-30 inches thick, depending on density, lungs are not dense, bone is dense.

Velocity above 1100 was to help flatten trajectory, and also grouped better in that particular pistol.
Not a max load.


Bill

[Southern Shooter]

Thank you, Bill, for your input and for the Linebaugh information. That was my line of thinking when I bought the gun in the first place. I had spent several phone calls talking with John Linebaugh before making the purchase. And, I believe that was the similar message I was getting from him. The reaffirmation helps.

Brad

[Southern Shooter]

Bill,
Looking at the numbers presented, at short distances, the Lee boolit dropping at 265 grains and moving at 1,200 fps +, and the Accurate Mold 360 grain at 1,037 fps should both be capable of driving .45 caliber holes through a large, thick target.

That is all I want. An opportunity to enjoy the outdoors without lugging a long gun...a little chance of luck in a holster on my chest.

Brad

[MtGun44]

I carry the 329 with 250 Keiths at 1200 fps. 26 oz unloaded, unpleasant to shoot but
pleasant to carry. I have made it a hard rule in the back country - gun is NEVER out of immediate
reach. Very easy to lay it down and INTEND to keep it near, but go over the get something, read
a map, light a fire, etc and have it 15 -20 ft away when you need it. Be in the habit of leaving it
on your body at all times except when in the tent. The wife carries a big canister of bear spray
and I carry the .44. Hope the bear spray works, but have a backup plan.

Frankly, the .45 Colt in the "Ruger" level of loads is just fine, I think full 454 Casull loads are a bit
overkill for this mission. 285 Keith type will easily run 1250 in my BH 4 5/8" and I'd trust that just
fine for critter defense. Certainly your big Ruger will be very comfortable to shoot with heavy .45 Colt
level loads. I have always wondered if the slower shot-to-shot time wasn't a factor mitigating against
the highest possible level of loads.

More selected .45 Colt from Linebaugh. Note that even under way 1000 fps the penetration
is pretty decent. Even at 1200 fps with the 300 LBT, you get 38 inches. PLENTY.
Frankly, 24-27 is probably enough for most any application except Texas heart
shots on griz, but that isn't a self defense shot.

45 Colt Keith 265 944 24.0
45 Colt Keith 265 675 27.0
45 Colt LBT 300 1,180 38.0

Bill

[Southern Shooter]

I have always wondered if the slower shot-to-shot time wasn't a factor mitigating against
the highest possible level of loads.

Yes, that is one of the issues that complicates things. Penetration is important. Tissue upset important. CNS disruption is important. Lots of boolit weight and velocity help out there. Yet, too much weight and velocity limits one's window of opportunity. I am not trusting in one-shot thinking. I want quick multiple effective shots. Searching for that balance is the challange.

[Southern Shooter]

UPDATE: 18 grains...Sweet Spot and "best fit"

Well, I have started with 16 grains of Blue Dot with the Lee C452-300-RF dressing out at 315 grains. Moving up .5 grains at a time the groups continually tightened up until today's final load of 18 grains. I just shot a sample at each level to get a taste of the combination. I pulled one of the 4 shots...totally was not expecting the guy next to me to shoot and I flinched. LOL. But, the other 3 looked good at 15 yards. By the way, average velocity was 1,180 FPS.

The recoil was not bad. I believe that I could regain my target easy enough.

One thing that I have noticed between using Blue Dot and W296 in this short-barrel revolver, I am NOT perceiving as much muzzle blast as I did with W296. Or, is it just my imagination?

I will work with this load for a while to make sure today was not a fluke. I think 1,180 FPS is sufficient velocity with this boolit. And, if the groups are consistently at this level I will be happy.
104480

[C. Latch]

UPDATE: 18 grains...Sweet Spot and "best fit"

Well, I have started with 16 grains of Blue Dot with the Lee C452-300-RF dressing out at 315 grains. Moving up .5 grains at a time the groups continually tightened up until today's final load of 18 grains.

I know the SRH is an incredibly strong revolver, but I've never seen anything close to 18 grains of blue dot as a published load with a ~315-grain bullet. Nevermind that with the Lee bullet, you have to seat it very deeply compared to other heavy bullets.

The castpics database shows FIFTEEN grains as maximum (ruger-only) with a much lighter (225 or 235, I forget) bullet. If that's a 30K PSI load, adding 20% to your powder charge and 30% to your bullet weight........um....it's your gun, shoot what suits you, but it seems HOT to me.

[luvtn]

He is shooting it in a .454 Casull SRH Alaskan. I agree that your 315 grs boolit at 1180 fps would be more than adequate. I went to Alaska on 3 different occasions on work assignments. Each time I took my .44mag Redhawk loaded with 300 gr, WFN with 14 grs of 2400. I felt adequately protected, and it worked great as a talisman. The only bears I saw were in the zoo in Anchorage. :)
luvtn

[C. Latch]

He is shooting it in a .454 Casull



Oops! My bad. I was thinking .45 Colt for some reason.

[DougGuy]

UPDATE: 18 grains...Sweet Spot and "best fit"

Well, I have started with 16 grains of Blue Dot with the Lee C452-300-RF dressing out at 315 grains. Moving up .5 grains at a time the groups continually tightened up until today's final load of 18 grains. I just shot a sample at each level to get a taste of the combination. I pulled one of the 4 shots...totally was not expecting the guy next to me to shoot and I flinched. LOL. But, the other 3 looked good at 15 yards. By the way, average velocity was 1,180 FPS.

The recoil was not bad. I believe that I could regain my target easy enough.

One thing that I have noticed between using Blue Dot and W296 in this short-barrel revolver, I am NOT perceiving as much muzzle blast as I did with W296. Or, is it just my imagination?

I will work with this load for a while to make sure today was not a fluke. I think 1,180 FPS is sufficient velocity with this boolit. And, if the groups are consistently at this level I will be happy.


I think 1,180 FPS is sufficient velocity with this boolit. I think you are there! That is about the best you could hope for, a serious, real world velocity, WITH good accuracy, and this load is a handful (which rightfully it SHOULD be!) but not uncontrollable, since no matter if it's 265gr or 340gr, you STILL have to put the shots where they will stop the attack.

Doug Guy posts up a ^5 for Southern Shooter.

[44man]

I am going to agree with almost everyone that posted. The short .454 is just a large case .45 Colt but you just don't need super velocities with heavy boolits.
A 335 LBT from a .45 Colt Vaquero has amazing penetration at 1160 fps. So the boolit in question should be just fine from 1100 to 1200 fps. I don't like short barrels myself because of powder choices but the SRH Alaskan still has weight for some control.
You need to see penetration to believe it. Don't think faster is better.
Don't go too heavy with boolits or they will not track straight. As boolit weight goes up you need more velocity that can't be had from short guns.

[reloader28]

I did finally chrono the load I mentioned earlier in the thread.
10gr Unique going almost exactly 1000fps. It turned a coyote inside out and went almost clear thru a dead cow lengthwise.
Now thats some penetration.

You dont need the speed.

[huntersdog]

Bear spray is probably your best bet to disorientated him first. Brown bear attacks are not like they are in the movie were they come head on charging at you. Most attacks happen as when you stumble upon them like face to face or you come across a mother with cubs. Other than that the brown bear will hunt you, he will track you from either side or from the back in that's when they attack just as you were any other meal.

[fredj338]

At 1000fs, this bullet penetrates further than my 400gr sp in the 404jeffery @ 2200fps. I doubt it stays inside most animals shot broadside. I just can't figure out why all the mold manf put gc on a bullet that is not likely to ever see more than 1300-1400fps.

[Moonie]

104638

[flyingrhino]

460 Rowland is rapidly becoming the weapon of choice in the NorthWest. If you have a 1911 the conversion runs you $300. It's a drop in comped bbl. Use the same dies as your 45acp. Uses Rowland brass available from Starline. It's 44 magnum terminal ballistics in a much softer shooting platform. Does a major number on hogs too! Google it. Plenty out there about it.