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petroid
01-05-2014, 10:54 PM
Hi all,
First post as I recently joined and am new to casting. I am on a quest to generate gobs of uber cheap practice ammo for my XD in 40S&W. I opted for the Lee TL-401-175 SWC mold as it was inexpensive and tumble lubing doesnt require extra equipment and is very time saving. I am ladle casting air cooled wheel weight alloy and loading with Lee deluxe pistol dies using Power Pistol powder and CCI SP primers and mixed brass. I used the Hornady 9th manual cross referenced with Alliant's load data for 180 gr. bullets. My boolits weigh about 179.5 avg. as cast. I have not sized any yet as I currently dont have a sizer although its on order. Plus I wanted to see if the boolits would shoot well without sizing.
From 4.5 on up to 6 gr. charges of Power Pistol they shoot well but leading is evident at all charges though less at the lowest charge. According to my calipers (I don't have a micrometer) the barrel slugs at .4005-.4008". Boolits drop slightly out of round at .400-.4025. I had to repeat the barrel slugging to get a good reading as my first attempt was not consistent. I am pretty sure my measurements are correct and I am assuming the leading is from undersized boolits. I used the lee expander die screwed all the way down to the shell holder to expand the case as much as possible so as not to swage the bullet down when seating. Pulled bullets seem to measure the same as cast.
That said, I am looking for advice. Firstly, the boolit sizer die is ordered and I am wondering if there is any way sizing the bullets might make them more uniformly round and hopefully not undersized. Secondly, is there any hope for my mold? I have attempted the leementing with comet but had less than satisfactory results. Boolits just spun in the mold while trying to drill them or once the comet paste was applied they wouldn't spin but the screw would keep driving deeper forcing me to give up. I did notice that after leementing bullets would drop out of the mold much easier and even without smoking the mold or using any mold release. Alas, still .400 on the short side.
I am cautiously optimistic that the sizer die will help but I don't want to get my hopes up. Any input is appreciated. Thanks!

popper
01-06-2014, 12:31 AM
Good start, try beagling if needed. Watch the pressure on the handles, it might drop larger. I have both those moulds, same problem as you in trying to polish them. My XDm does fine with 0.401.

CGT80
01-06-2014, 02:54 AM
I thought about doing the same as the OP. I have an XD 40 Service bitone that is all tricked out for competition. I have been shooting lead 155 swc bullets over 4.6 grains of hp-38 and get an average of 1,000 fps. I don't seem to have any leading, but the wax lube makes a mess compared to plated or jacketed bullets. I was browsing the forum looking for a custom 40 cal mold. I wasn't sure if I wanted to cast and lube/size enough boolits to keep up with competition or just buy bear creek moly coated lead bullets, which work well and are the least expensive commercial bullet for me.

I have never tried tumble lubing and I was aware of the small lee molds. I have a couple in other calibers. They don't compare to my MP and NOE molds-at least the old two banger lee's don't.

I am still hesitant to try the comet trick on my NOE. It is dropping pretty good but still takes a number of light taps on the handle. The cast size was good, last time I checked. I am happy to hear that comet helped the release. I have beagled (added foil tape to the mold faces) one of my molds. It seemed to help the diameter. Lead temp also effects the boolit size.

Welcome to the forum petroid! I am getting more into casting but am still very new compared to others here. I started with less used cartridges like 30-30 and 30-06. I managed to get 750 boolits out of the 5 cavity NOE mold in an afternoon, so it gives me more hope that I may be able to keep up with my 40 cal pistol. I may consider a 5 cavity NOE for 40 cal.

I got my lube sizer dialed in and was able to run those 750 boolits in a few hours, but it is much slower than the tumble lube method. I considered an upgrade to a push through sizer, like a star, to speed things up. I do use white label Cred lube and do highly recommend it. It beats the price of any commercial lube, it is easy to get, and the owner is a forum member. It seems to work well for me but I am not trying to set any accuracy records or velocity records. I aim to hit the steel plates or cardboard IPSC targets that I practice and compete with. I ordered two pounds of the bulk lube, for my second order. I just melt it in a small coffee can and pour it in the sizer. I seem to get less air pockets that way.

Tag to learn more about casting in volume for the 40S&W.

petroid
01-06-2014, 08:40 AM
Thanks popper and CGT80. I forgot to mention I did try the foil tape beagling but it only succeeded in making my boolits more out of round and still minimum diameter of .400" I did try some carnauba red lube but leading was worse than the 50/50 I had tried first. My Lee push through sizer should arrive today so I'll keep you posted on any results with that but its -5F here today and my uninsulated garage isn't very habitable right now. I also am wondering about my casting method. I don't know the temp of my melt as I'm using a propane burner and an iron pot without a thermometer. A buddy of mine has a rcbs pot so one day I might try to use his setup to see if the boolits drop to a different size. The narrowest measurement is where the mold closes. Do you think I'm not getting good mold fill out?

randyrat
01-06-2014, 09:21 AM
I've had a few sticky molds and did not want to beagle them so I used "BAR KEEPERS FRIEND" Cleanser & polisher. Applied it with a bit of water and a QTip and scrubbed works like a charm for a sticky bullet mold. Unfortunately it does not take metal away , just polishes.

Beagling seemed to make my boolits a bit out of round also, but I was not worried about quality just quantity and no lead for an auto. I beagled until the minimum was almost there and let the gun barrel do the rest.

petroid
01-06-2014, 10:09 AM
Randyrat, after I tried the comet I used some JB bore paste on a boolit lap. I don't know which had more effect but boolits do drop easily from the mold now. Unfortunately beagling with foil tape did not help my minimum dimensions which is my problem. And I started to get excessive flash at the mold closure.

Harter66
01-06-2014, 12:43 PM
My XD40 leaded a little w/ACWW,worse was tumbling. I hardened up to WDWW after trying WD 50/50. That solved the minor leading and the tumbling acurracy and groups improved up to the maximum load at 5.7 gr Unique.

My XD40 was .401 w/boolits dropping at 4025-403 .

Lapping ,found in the Leementing stickies ,will square (or round)up the cavities.

popper
01-06-2014, 03:43 PM
Petroid - look at the PC or HiTek threads. That will probably get you where you want to be without a lot of extra work and expense. It really does work. If you shoot a lot of 40, look into getting a 4x custom. I get tired after casting a lot with the 6x.

petroid
01-06-2014, 06:14 PM
Harter66, I might try to load some a little hotter and see how they do on their own. I have heard that enough pressure is needed to obturate the boolit to the bore and i may not be getting them at my lower charges. the only time I shot higher charges was after leading had already happened at the lower charges. I also may try to water drop some to see if that helps. I am still of the mind that it is a fit issue though.

Popper, the bullet coatings are quite interesting. I have read some on them and I am intrigued. However, at this stage of the game I'm trying to keep it simple. I am a firm believer that the simplest answer is most likely the correct one so until I can confirm or deny that my boolits are the proper size, I am going to stay on this track. Not that the coatings wouldn't help leading but it is another expense and another step in the process that I am not ready for. Thanks to you both. I'll keep you posted.

gon2shoot
01-06-2014, 06:30 PM
I tried one of the 175TL molds for a plinking/noise making round for the wife. I had the same issues as you, too small and out of round.
I tried polishing, beagling, changed alloy, changed heat no luck. I finally found something that really helped my spirits. I beat the snot out of it with a two pound hammer and ordered a different mold. :mrgreen:

Harter66
01-06-2014, 08:44 PM
I only had very minor leading . The 6'' 25yd groups w/boolits sideways were what bothered me about it. The lapping will fix w/the out of round and add just a little to the overall dia. If they will drop in the chamber w/o sizing they are small enough to shoot , try some unsized. Like I said mine fed and shot .403 as cast.

petroid
01-06-2014, 10:27 PM
I tried one of the 175TL molds for a plinking/noise making round for the wife. I had the same issues as you, too small and out of round.
I tried polishing, beagling, changed alloy, changed heat no luck. I finally found something that really helped my spirits. I beat the snot out of it with a two pound hammer and ordered a different mold. :mrgreen:

I sure hope it doesn't come to that. I may ask Lee if they can do anything about it first. But if at wit's end...it may happen.

petroid
01-06-2014, 10:30 PM
I only had very minor leading . The 6'' 25yd groups w/boolits sideways were what bothered me about it. The lapping will fix w/the out of round and add just a little to the overall dia. If they will drop in the chamber w/o sizing they are small enough to shoot , try some unsized. Like I said mine fed and shot .403 as cast.

I don't seem to be getting any sideways boolits but I've only shot it at about ten yards or so. I wish my mold dropped .403 like yours! Then I wouldn't be having this issue. Mine drops .400 on the short side. I'm just hoping the sizer might swage the bullet just enough to make it .401-.4015 minimum diameter. Even if its not perfectly round if it seals the bore better hopefully ill get rid of my leading issue.

MBuechle
01-07-2014, 12:14 AM
That is the first boolit I cast & shot and it worked well for me. My 2 cav drops them @ .404 to .406 though. I had to size them to get rounds to chamber. I have a Lee 9mm TL that was under sized. I used 400 grit clover compound to bullet lap them about .003 larger, it was a lot of work. I started with W/D WW in the .40 and it worked well, now I use 50/50 and A/C. I have MP molds for everything I cast now so don't use the Lee much. If you can get those bullets to proper size, that powder should work well. The other thing I did with my XD was to polish the bore with JB Bore Bright. I just used with each cleaning and after about 6 or so the bore was like a mirror and leading tendency was significantly reduced. Good luck.

petroid
01-07-2014, 01:50 PM
MBuechle, any chance you want to trade molds? Lol. My bore is pretty shiny and no pitting. All the leading seems to be right in the grooves and not trailing the lands but I might try a little polishing.
The big brown truck stopped in front of my house yesterday and then took off a few minutes later as if they couldn't find my package with the sizer die. UPScant tell me where it is either. I'll give them another day then call it in I guess. I just hope the sizer die can take up the slack in my mold or else I'll have to get serious with the lapping. Thanks

MBuechle
01-07-2014, 09:12 PM
Heck, if you want to try mine, I'll send it to you. Honestly, I don't think I'll use it again. It drops about 183gr. and my Mihec HP's drop at 184gr. and their shape feeds better in a wide variety of guns. PM me with your address and I'll get it out. You will need a sizer though. If it works and you like it, just keep it!

petroid
01-08-2014, 07:20 AM
That sounds great! What a great bunch of people on this forum! PM sent!

MBuechle
01-08-2014, 07:51 PM
OK, I PM'd you but it's on the way, should see it in 2 or 3 days.

petroid
01-08-2014, 08:59 PM
OK, I PM'd you but it's on the way, should see it in 2 or 3 days.

That's awesome! Can't wait to try it out! Warming up a bit here. Might get back in the garage soon!

petroid
01-10-2014, 11:31 PM
Well my sizing die among other things arrived today after having to contact the shipper regarding an undelivered package and having a trace started. Much to my chagrin, albeit not surprisingly, the Lee push through sizer didn't help bring the undersized portion of my boolits up but only brought the oversized portions down. What it did resize measured ~.4015 which should help my cause considering my barrel slugs ~.4006...So if I can cast some boolits that drop a bit over .4015 I should be good to go.
MBuechle, I haven't received your package yet but and hopeful it might come tomorrow if not Monday. Unfortunately, if it does come tomorrow I won't be able to do anything with it til who knows when because of a hectic schedule of kids activities and work schedules. But if it drops at .403 I'm supremely excited.

petroid
01-11-2014, 03:12 PM
MBuechle, I got your mold today. Cant wait to get casting. Unfortunately, I am getting ready to leave town. May have some time tomorrow afternoon. I'll let you know how it goes. I guess this is an older style as the mold blocks have bosses and grooves to locate the halves instead of pins like mine. Looks well broken in and well taken care of. Thanks a million!

petroid
01-12-2014, 04:47 PM
Many thanks to everyone who has responded on this thread and especially to MBuechle who went the extra mile and sent me his mold to try out. I am happy to report that the mold is dropping boolits at .403-.404" and I think they will work great!

Before I size any I am curious if I should attempt to load any unsized. My bore slugs at .4006 give or take so the boolits are .002-.003 oversize now. If a dummy round will chamber should I go ahead and load unsized boolits? I guess I should probably load a dummy to see if it will chamber and then pull the bullet and check the size. A fatter boolit may not slip into the case very easily and might swage down a touch. This is probably what I will do unless somebody has a better idea. Thanks!

petroid
01-12-2014, 07:22 PM
Not being a patient person, I was anxious to see how the boolits from this "new to me" mold would work. Loaded a few each of "as cast" and sized boolits. Immediate leading in both cases. I did load a couple of dummies of each and pulled the boolits. Each measured .400 at the base and average diameter of .402 for unsized and .401 for the sized boolits. This seems to indicate that the brass is swaging the boolit down a bit at least at the base and may be the cause of the leading. These are freshly cast air cooled wheel weight alloy though, and may be too soft to load without the brass squeezing them down too much. Maybe if they sit for a few days they will work better. I may try water quenching if these dont work out. Wondering if I need a Lyman "M" die...

RickinTN
01-12-2014, 07:35 PM
while trying to drill them or once the comet paste was applied they wouldn't spin but the screw would keep driving deeper forcing me to give up.

When lapping a mold use a sheet metal screw that is shorter than the bullet and this won't be a problem. The screw which is shorter than the bullet will bottom out on the shoulder of the screw and the bullet will turn. It will probably take a more course compound to remove .002"or so. I use valve lapping compound from an automotive parts house.
Good Luck,
Rick

petroid
01-13-2014, 09:26 AM
When lapping a mold use a sheet metal screw that is shorter than the bullet and this won't be a problem. The screw which is shorter than the bullet will bottom out on the shoulder of the screw and the bullet will turn. It will probably take a more course compound to remove .002"or so. I use valve lapping compound from an automotive parts house.
Good Luck,
Rick

thanks Rick, I'll try that if I do any more lapping. The mold MBuechle sent me is dropping big enough, but like I said, the bullet is getting swaged down by the brass when seating. Need a better way of expanding the cases to accept the cast boolits. Looking around the site now for custom plug for 40SW Lee Powder Through Expanding die.

petroid
01-13-2014, 05:43 PM
Have sent PMs to a few members about custom 40s&w Lee pte die plugs. If anyone that does this wants to chime in feel free. I am wondering also if a 41 magnum plug turned down a bit will work if its long enough. Anyone?

popper
01-13-2014, 06:57 PM
41mag M expander will work fine but you need a machine shop to turn it. Takes a carbide cutter. You need to know your EXACT dia. before trying it. I use the lyman universal flaring tool as the M die doesn't work real well. 40 brass is all over the place in length & I don't trim. My XD 40 will shave lead @ 0.402 when fired. It should take a week or so for the ACWW to harden.

petroid
01-13-2014, 07:10 PM
Thanks popper I didn't think about the plug being carbide. I'm going to wait a few more days and try a couple more dummies. Then I may try water dropping a few to see if anything changes. A member has said he can make me a custom plug for 35$ but want to see if alloy hardness may help first

petroid
01-15-2014, 11:20 PM
Update

A big thank you to blikseme300 who is going to make a custom expander plug for me to hopefully ease my boolit seating woes. The thought is that since I'm getting brass spring back to .396 using the Lee expander which is too short and only measures .398, a .401 expander that is deeper will allow spring back to about .399 giving me 2 or three thou of neck tension and hopefully not swage my boolits too small when seated. If neck tension is not enough, I can turn the expander down slightly.

On another note, its been three days since I cast these ACWW boolits and in an effort to see if they have hardened enough or any at all, i seated a few unsized .403 boolits in cases expanded with the factory lee expander. I seated and pulled two and to my delight they only swaged down a little to about .401-.402. I figured what the heck and loaded five rounds with 5.0 grains of Power Pistol and lit them off. I still had some leading, but it wasnt nearly as bad as before.

I also cast some boolits out of wheel weights and water dropped them. I'm going to give them a few days at least to harden and then attempt to seat a few and see what happens. I am not going to size them until I see what happens when I seat them unsized. Hopefully next week I'll have a new expander plug to try out too and can report on that.

This whole process is a fun challenge. In an era of instant gratification where people expect everything to happen right now and just so, having the patience and figuring out all the little details to make something work just right is often lost. I enjoy challenges like these but the more I try and fail and read and learn and try some more, the more I am determined to get to the bottom of this. The problem is, if you can call it a problem, is that I am getting sucked in to this whole cast boolits scene and want to read and learn as much as I can about it and am already thinking about starting to cast for other calibers even if I dont own them, just because it's so much fun! Thanks to everyone on this forum, even if you haven't responded to my thread, because I have probably learned something from your posts to others. You are all a great bunch of folks and your help has not gone unappreciated. Pete

petroid
01-21-2014, 10:52 PM
Got some WCWW boolits castes up the other day and lubed them with lee alox. Loaded a few unsized and test fired. Little or no leading! Loaded twenty odd and went to range. Hit to poa and only very slight leading. I don't know if it was water dropping to higher bhn or the lube which did the trick. I out another light coat of lube on the rest of the boolits and next day loaded a hundred rounds. I'm still going to size some and see how they do. Also hoping to get my custom expander plug soon.
I splurged and got a lee 20 pound pot today. Just finished baptizing it. Next time I'll wait for better weather. Tough when its 5 degrees outside and barely above freezing in the garage,

petroid
01-28-2014, 06:51 PM
So far good results with WCWW unsized and lubed with Lee Alox. Shot 60 or so rounds this afternoon and little more than a lead wash in the barrel that came out very easily. Had a few lead flakes that I assume are from the fat boolits shearing off slightly when fired but not a problem. Have some boolits sized and ready to load to see if it makes any difference. Noticed when sizing that not all of the driving bands and lube bands contacted the sizing die. To me this means that some boolits dropped smaller than others. This seems to be an important lesson, that sizing will also help to identify boolits that pass visual inspection but are still undersized. I am still waiting for the custom expander die from Blikseme300 which should help when seating boolits and prevent swaging by the brass, but so far am happy with my results.

Thanks to all who helped me out if not by posting to my thread but helping others from whom I have learned.