The forgotten "keith" 44

[Forrest r]

I recently acquired an older Ideal mold, the 429422, it's the smaller cousin of the keith 429421. He designed the 429421 & wanted a lighter version of the same bullet. The 429422's base/bottom drive band is a little shorter than the 429421's bottom drive band. The 429422 is the same as the 429421 in every other aspect, same lube groove along with the same nose, middle & upper drive bands.

In the 1929 lyman catalog the 429422 was listed as weighing 235gr.


I finely got some time to cast some bullets with this mold today.

92707

The mold I have is a hollow base mold that casts a 220gr version of the 429422 keith bullet. Should prove interesting in the 624 44spl or for target loads in the mags.

Just something different, there's tons of keith style boolits along with different hp versions. There just isn't allot of the hollow base versions of this boolit out there.

forrest r

[Tn Jim]

Give us a write up when you get the chance to fire some of those Forrest. I'm curious how a hollow base boolit does in a handgun.

[Reg]

I think Keith used the hollow base concept in a number of his designs, might be a few more show up out there. It would be interesting to see how they compare from hollow base to solid base. Could use the same mold if a solid base plug was made up.

[John Allen]

I am waiting to hear how it shoots also. I do not have any hollow base molds for my 44 and my interest is perked.

[bhn22]

Something like this?
92717
92718

If you have this mold, you need to read Keiths narrative on it in "Sixguns". This is not a target bullet, and it will likely disappoint you if you treat it like one. There's also an article in Castpics by Beagle on Keith hollowpoint molds too. I don't suppose you have any pics of the markings on the side of the mold do you? I'm trying to identify my molds manufacture date.

[Thumbcocker]

IIRC 429422 was a hb from the get go. The .44 & .357 moulds were offered as solids, hb, and hp originally.

[bhn22]

Yes, but this particular HB was not designed to allow the skirt to expand. The hollowbase is there simply to lighten the bullet so heavier loads could be used, so it would shoot a little flatter in the 44 Spl. Keith wanted to retain his original full profile design. This particular design doesn't work like hollowbase .38 wadcutters, which have a tapered skirt. This has a square cut skirt.

[Forrest r]

Something like this?
92717
92718

If you have this mold, you need to read Keiths narrative on it in "Sixguns". This is not a target bullet, and it will likely disappoint you if you treat it like one. There's also an article in Castpics by Beagle on Keith hollowpoint molds too. I don't suppose you have any pics of the markings on the side of the mold do you? I'm trying to identify my molds manufacture date.


bhn22, I've seen that same mold on 3 different websites now. If you can wait until tomorrow I will take pictures of all 6 sides of my mold & post them for you. I oiled & put the mold away earlier and will have to dig it back out.

Is there any way you can take a picture of the cavities & your pin that in them? Also does your mold have a screw & pin on the bottom of it like my mold to accept a removable pin (just like the hp pins for lyman's)? Here's a picture of mine that I took when it had a solid pin in it. If you look on the bottom of the right mold 1/2 you can see the screw and stop-pin that I'm talking about.

92768

As far as testing these boolits with a hb & solid base, no problem. The mold came with a solid base pin but no hb pin. I have the ability to make my own pins with about any profile. If you look closely at the picture (1st post) of the boolits I cast you can see that I used/made a pin that had a target hollow base profile (larger hole than bhn22's). I have the mihec 432hbwc mold & can duplicate his hb pins (height/width/depth/shape). I'll take a picture of the hb pin I made & post it tomorrow along with the pics of the mold.

I'm planning on doing allot of different tests/testing with different hb profiles (shallow/deep/round/pointed/thick walled/etc) and using a scoped contender to test them it. There should be a skirt thickness/hb debth/balance point somewhere with this bullet, just have to make some different hb pins & find out.

Another thing I wanted to try/test with this bullet was making a hb/hp boolit similar to the one Larry Gibson talked about in his fbi bullet threads about the 38spl. I already cast a h&g 142 220gr solid nose swc, the mold has 2 cavities. One is a solid nose, the other is a hp. The hp 142 boolit weighs 200gr. I can use the same hp pin size/depth on these 220gr hb 429422's that I'm casting right now & turn them into 200gr hb/hp boolits. Should prove to be a interesting boolit.

I'll have those pictures for you tomorrow.

forrest r

[bhn22]

Thank you for the offer, but yours is the late style. I'm looking around, trying to get more information on Ideal molds from the late 1920s to 1930s. It's an uphill battle, nobody at Lyman seems to know either. You and I talked a little bit on the 1911 forum about a week ago. I remember your 429422, and especially your hollowbase Cramer 45s.

[Forrest r]

There's not allot on these molds out there & what is there really doesn't make a whole lot of since. The 1929 ideal catalog show both the 429421 & 429422 & gives a brief description of them.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite/HistMolds/1929_Ideal_Catalog.pdf

When I looked threw that catalog it clearly shows what bullets have a hb or hp & shows the shape of those hb's/hp's. When I look at the 429422 it has a dotted line only that's round and I can find pictures on the net that have the removable plugs that look the same.

92813

I've also seen later versions of this mold that had the newer c-clip/ring on the removable plug & the bottom of the mold block only had a screw (no stop pin). So what your saying is that these's 3 different versions of this mold:
1st/oldest='s yours with stationary pin
2nd='s the one pictured above with the peg in the hb pin
3rd='s the ones with the c-clip on the hb pin & only a screw in the mold.

bhn22, could you post some pictures of the inside of your mold with the pin installed & the bottom of your mold?

[beagle]

There are several versions around. The newer versions with the wooden knob, the one pictured and also (I suspect) the next generation past the one pictured which has a loose, captive changeable plug to make either HB or solid base projectiles simply by reconfiguring the plug.

I have a couple but found no great advantage over the solid based 429421s in my testing.

Still, they are interesting moulds and apart of history./beagle

[bhn22]

We have some really good pics on this older thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220119-Ideal-amp-Lyman-Mold-Markings

The base pin in mine is similar to your Cramer, but Ideal used a long machine screw instead of the two captive pins. There is good and bad in this, the screw makes it easy to clean, but the single screw allows the base pin to move, and this can, and does, damage the channel the base pin rides in. Since my mold is the mintest mold of this type I've seen, I pretty much retired it after casting a handful of samples for research purposes. I really wish Ideal would have used two screws, to keep the pin aligned.

[Forrest r]

Thank you for the replies and the link, they bring back memories. I'm starting to get back into hb bullets for pistols again but the molds aren't as easy to find as they used to be.

My interest in this mold/hb is to be able to size the bullet to just 1 size & be able to use it for all my 44's. I only own 4 different pistols in that caliber right now. But 1 of the uses oversized bullets (.431-.432) & 1 is on the tight side and flat out refuses to shoot anything over .430. The other thing I do like about hb molds is the bearing surface/nose can be longer/bigger on them and still be lighter which can turn into an excellent combo for a snub nosed revolver.

I have a 429421hp mold with the large hp pin & the mihec256 H&G#503 clone with the small, large & penta hp pins. So I'm able to test the different hp sizes and different alloys/speeds to get the huge leads nose to expand. With this boolit being a hb weighing 200gr I can turn it into a hp in the 180gr range & be able to get it running @ 900fps+. It would be like a 358429hp on steroids, some people like snub nosed 38spls. I pefer the 44spl snub noses & have owned them for 3+ decades.

As far as accuracy I'm not expecting any huge gain. This hb boolit should however be more forgiving producing better results with a wider range of loads along with sealing the bore better than it's solid base cousin allowing me to use a common size boolit for a wider verity of firearms.

And I thank bhn22 & beagle for your time and insight & knowledge about this little known version of the 429421 keith boolit.

forrest r

[bhn22]

As you have seen, I put my mold pics up on multiple sites, fishing for information, and hopefully stimulating discussion. The old mold designs fascinate me.

[MtGun44]

I'd be interested in knowing how much pressure and velocity this can stand
before the accuracy goes to pieces. I have read that at some pressure level
the skirt on HB designs blows out as it exits the bbl, upsetting the trajectory,
but no personal experience with it.

OTOH, I would bet that a gun with severely oversized throats would do
far better with this than with a undersized boolit. Seems that relatively
fewer .44 Mags and Spls were made with massively oversized throats
than .45 Colts, so this may not be much needed for that reason. But
for moving the CG and setting overall weight - well it sure does that, but
please report on how it shoots.

Bill

[bhn22]

Mine already cast .434. Keith claimed he designed it to allow use with larger charges of powder, and specified Dupont #80. While I'm still trying to figure its pedigree, I sold off my 44 magnums, and won't be working with mine in the immediate future. My thought would be to buy an older S&W M24 (44 SPL), and maybe cast a few more of these at around 13-14 bhn and take it deer hunting next year.

[Forrest r]

I'd be interested in knowing how much pressure and velocity this can stand
before the accuracy goes to pieces. I have read that at some pressure level
the skirt on HB designs blows out as it exits the bbl, upsetting the trajectory,
but no personal experience with it.

OTOH, I would bet that a gun with severely oversized throats would do
far better with this than with a undersized boolit. Seems that relatively
fewer .44 Mags and Spls were made with massively oversized throats
than .45 Colts, so this may not be much needed for that reason. But
for moving the CG and setting overall weight - well it sure does that, but
please report on how it shoots.

Bill


It depends on the hb design, the original round hb leaves alot to be desired. I can pretty much make any style/shape hb pin for the mold. This is the one I'm starting with:

92938

I plan on testing this hb bullet in a 10" contender 44mag with starting loads around 650fps & then working them up until the hb fails. Then figure out why, make a new test pin, change alloy or whatever it takes & do it again. I also planned on setting up 2 chronographs, 1 10' from the muzzle, the other in front of the target.

I'm hoping to find a hb design that stable over a wide range of pressures/velocities. Then it's time to start testing hp designs, I want to end up with a bullet similar to the one larry gibson talked about with the 38spl "fbi" load, a hb lead hp. Only this one will be on steroids in the 180gr-190gr range for a 44spl/mag. I'm not expecting these things to do warp speeds but if I can find a design that will work in a .429 to .432 cylinder/bbl & be able to take up to 25,000psi, you'll me seeing me trying to do cart wheels.

I cast a couple hundred boolits the other day to start testing, they're nothing more than 9bhn range lead. If it ever quits snowing/freezing I'll get some range time in.

In the mean time I'll keep designing/making bullet profiles & hp's to test when the weather gets better. A couple of 147gr 38spl/357/9mm bullets that I made the nose forming dies for.

A swept wing street fighter with 2 separate arched profiles (rounded sides to shoulder & raised dimple tip) for pure penetration.

92939

And a standard swc profile with a deep narrow hp that has a flare at the top/opening to control expansion at slower speeds allowing for more/better penetration.

92940

forrest r

[bhn22]

There are several versions around. The newer versions with the wooden knob, the one pictured and also (I suspect) the next generation past the one pictured which has a loose, captive changeable plug to make either HB or solid base projectiles simply by reconfiguring the plug.

And yet another piece of the puzzle.

Thanks Beagle!

[w30wcf]

Forrest,
Perhaps the hollow base should be more of a cone shape like the one in this Ideal 358431....

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/Ideal358431358439.jpg

w30wcf

[Forrest r]

WOW, very nice!!!!
Thank you for the picture of your hb mold & your thoughts on the hb pin design. Perhaps you can share your experiences with you hb design & some of your tests/loads.

I have a mihec 4 cavity hbwc mold that has the cone shaped hb. Never really did anything with them other than found an excellent target load for a 624 or turned them around for a huge hp in a snub nosed revolver, nothing over 15,000psi. I was planning on using them along side the 429422's in pressure tests. The mihec cone should actually be stronger than the 429422, no lube groove. The base/end of the skirt is the weak link on the mihec hbwc. Planned on running them until they fail & then making a cone shaped pin with a thicker wall @ the base.

Something to think about:
If you look at your cone shaped pin you will see that the weak spot is the distance (90*) between the face of the pin & the inner edge of the lower grease groove. Typically that distance is the height of the drive band & these bullets have square grease grooves. Rounded grease grooves are stronger than the square grooves, reinforces the compression area of that inner lower corner of the grease groove.

92953

My mold has a square grease groove, another way to reinforce that area is to put the curve on the inside. That curve is also what's know as a flow line, a flow line will change the direction of any forces that are applied to it. The 2nd curve, the rounded tip (bell) of the hb should slow the vortex of the channeled gasses from the 1st strengthening curve & even that pressure out distributing it more evenly in the base of the bullet, hence accuracy. I left the 2nd curve (bell) large & planned on turning it down (coning it) to strengthen the side walls of the cavity if need be & to put more pressure directly on the center of the bullet.

Basically, I'm going slowly with it, strengthening 1 area & using a bell to dampen the pressures.

Any ideas are more then welcome, I've had several hb molds in the past & currently have 4 now. I've always just cast/shot them, never really thought about improving them or their designs.

forrest r

[w30wcf]

Forrest,
I have had those molds for awhile now but, to date, have not tested the 358431. It's on the "To Do" list but has not reached the top yet. Thank you for your observations. I'll have to make it a point to test it this year.

The 429422 was listed at 15 grs. less than the 429421 (235 vs 250). Since your bullet weighs closer to 220, perhaps the hollow base is deeper than the original pin(?).

bhn22's pic in this thread shows the pin to protrude not much deeper than the bottom of the lube groove.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220119-Ideal-amp-Lyman-Mold-Markings


w30wcf

[Forrest r]

I understand, my to do list is starting to turn into a bucket list. And now I have winter bucket lists, our winters provide us with allot of time to work on different projects but they seem to pile up rather quickly.

Yes sir, they have a small round pin that doesn't go very deep into the base of the bullet. It's more for making the bullet lighter not accuracy. I figured I'd start with a big cavity & slowly work it smaller as I tested it trying to find a sweet spot.

It's easier to make a pin larger & reshape/shrink it in size than it is to start out small & then keep making them increasing them in size until I find a shape/size that works.

The mihec 432-hbwc mold that I have casts a 248/250gr solid boolit & a 218/220gr hollow base bullet. Double of what the original lyman molds do.

Thank you for pointing these things out, it's easy to get side tracked & forget about the big picture.

forrest r