Anyone here load 577/450 Martini?

[trooperdan]

I have one of these, a little Carbine that looks like it could hurt me with full loads! I'd like to load for it and would like to keep them on the "light" side, just for paper-punching.

Do you form your own cases from 24 ga brass shotgun shells or buy them already formed? Looking at the price of cases, being $2.50 each, I'm thinking I could pay for a set of case-forming dies in a hundred cases or so! If I read the catalog correctly, CH4D makes a set of forming dies for about $170. I emailed them asking if that forming set would work using the CBC 24 Ga brass shotgun shells as the parent.

[moodyholler]

I'm jealous! Sounds like a neat pc. I sure would like to know what kind of recoil it has. I was reading about them being used on the natives and the results were sickening according to some British officers. moodyholler

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg
Ya mean like this!?[smilie=w: These 60 are all Bertrams. The first 20 I bought from RCBS were $108/20. :shock: After that with my FFL I managed to find them cheaper. Like $88/20. I also ended up buy 60 turned solid brass cases from the old Red Willow Armory. They don't hold up as well and require annealing every freaking time they're shot, or you'll get split necks.

http://www.fototime.com/B36421DF639D5DF/standard.jpg
Or if you think recoil will be too much, get a chamber adaptor to shoot 45 Colt (middle, above).Surprisingly accurate considering the slug has to travel a full couple inches before hitting anything important, like rifling. If you dedicate some 45 Colt cases to this, they expand enough to hold a .454 -.455" slug and accuracy improves over shooting a .451-.452" boolit. You can figure about 2-3" at 50 yards. They sound like a big burp from that 33" bbl.

I would suggest you contact Coyote at :
http://pub182.ezboard.com/bbritishmilitariaforums

He's had Lee produce a 3 die set for the 577-450. I don't really know what the price is. They're 1-1/4-12, so if you have a Rockchucker you take out the adaptor bushing to use these (or CH4D's) dies. I'd imagine they're cheaper the CH4D. When I bought mine from them I paid $150. I heard good things about the Lee dies, as I suspect Coyote spec'ed them right. I believe he also sells the Mag-Tech 24ga shotshells presized for the Martini. He also has had Lee make up moulds for grease grooved and paper patched slugs of the correct size.

My dies size the casenecks back to hold a .458" slug. That's not good since the Queen's troops were shooting a 480gr paper patched slug over 85.0grs of BP. Dave at CH4D said to send them back with a fired case as a referance and they'd fix them. I had a better idea. I bought a Lee 458 Win Mag 2 die set and cut the size die off to use as a neck only, sizer. Works like a champ. I haven't FL sized my brass since I don't remember when.

http://www.fototime.com/7CD7CAD02940F78/standard.jpg
I have a MkIV Martini Henry (above). Probably the most commonly found rifles of the type. Those loaded rounds in the picture are the ones I took to Winnemucca this year. They're loaded with my favorite plinking load of 38.0grs of IMR3031 and the Lee 458-405F, as cast and patched with 20lb paper to .472". Velocity is about 1250 fps and it WILL knock over the 200 meter ram:D

If or when you're ready for some load data lemme know. I have a ton of my own, and I think I gathered every printed word ever done on ammunition and loads for the 577-450.

http://www.fototime.com/F24AF897122CFE9/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/B160E910F6E0995/standard.jpg
The above 2 photos are of a Martini Sporter I put together. It's a WW Greener action configured as a MkII, and a Westley Richards barrel which has ratchet rifling.

The Brits did have a carbine load, just like we did for the Trapdoor. Our 45-70 rifle load (until 1884) was a 405gr slug over 70.0grs of powder. The Martini was as I said a 480gr patched boolit over 85.0grs of BP. Our carbine load was 55.0grs BP and the 405gr. The British carbine load was 70.0grs of BP and a 420gr slug. No wonder HM troops were a bit slap happy!

I tried BP in my rifle ............once. They obviously used a courser powder then the 2Fg I used. I just kept on pouring it in till it was up in the neck . I still had to put in some card wads and a grease cookie to fill it up. I used a Lee 450gr boolit as it was closest to the correct weight. My powder charge was no where near it at 110grs. It rocked my world, as the rifle is not that heavy. It literally had the left hand side of the rifle covered in slobber. I'd only loaded 20 rounds. After the first 5-6 I'd have gladly PAID someone to shoot off the rest!

....................Buckshot

[HTRN]

I too have a Marti, a pristine example from 1879. I haven't shot it yet because the cost is so obscene. Horneber makes brass for it, but expect to pay at least what Bertram gets.

Bertram brass is not great. A buddy with a Martini Francotte carbine had three split necks the first time he shot the gun. That's out of twenty folks!

As for dies, RCBS makes them, BUT expect to pay BIG, and I mean BIG money for them - over $350. CH4D makes them. Currently they list online for $169.

I briefly spoke with Rick Jamison of Jamison international about making brass for the Martini Henry a couple of years ago. He said to the effect that the run would have to be 10,000 cases, and they would still cost $3 a piece. Mebbe we should start emailing Starline, they make all sorts of wierd brass. Mebbe they'll take pity on us.


HTRN

[trooperdan]

Buckshot, many thanks for the detailed and informative reply! I checked Coyote's site and he wants $130, shipped for the die set. Can I use his die set to form cases from 24 ga brass? Yep, I asked Coyote this question as well.

I like your idea of using a cut down .45-70 die to neck size your cases; I'll give that a try also. I want to try paper-patching so I guess I'll order one of those Lee dies as well. If I can use the loading dies from Coyote to form cases I won't need the CH4D $170 dies in addition.. and maybe I can sell enough formed cases to pay for the dies! Dreamer!

I met a guy last weekend at the Martini Henry play day in West Virginia that said he got a Lee die and bored it out to remove the grooves for paper patching.. is there any reason or advantage to doing that? of course he said he was a machinist!

I want to load just black powder for this caliber and I've never loaded black before. I understand the rules are different from loading smokeless so if you have any BP loads I'd appreciate hearing about them.

I'll see if I can post a photo of this little babe.

[Buckshot]

..........Why do you want to just shoot BP in it? There's a world of smokless loads out there. As I mentioned, Coyote sells custom Lee moulds to correctly fit the Martini.

............HTRN, "Bertram brass is not great. A buddy with a Martini Francotte carbine had three split necks the first time he shot the gun. That's out of twenty folks!"

I don't doubt that. Not that Bertram brass is crap, but that runs-lots may have issues, and your freind maybe got a bad lot? I'm sure most all cartridge makers have had the same experience. Via the modified Lee 458 Win Mag die, I size the casenecks very little. When I first got the brass I annealed every 3rd firing. Then every 4th, then 5th. That's where I am now.

My most experienced batch of 20 cases has right now (just went out and checked) 36 firings on them. I'd say that was pretty good. The Red Willow, turned from solid DO have to be annealed EVERY firing.

One of the guys on Coyote's board had turned a 577-450 body from nylon I think it was, and bored to accept a 45-90 case. The 45-90 's rim is reccessed flush with the nylon case's base, and when fired the exposed 45-90 case's neck expands to the Martini chamber. The brass case is then effectively locked in position, and a neck sizer is used.

Starline HAS been contacted about making 577-450 brass.

It was reported that Lee is thinking of offering 577-450 dies, but they have somekind of an agreement with Coyote having to do with his custom run IIRC.

................Buckshot

[Bad Ass Wallace]

..........Why do you want to just shoot BP in it? ................Buckshot

Cos it's FUN :Fire:

I use 80gn 1F with cornmeal filler under a 520gn .462 bullet. The helmet is, of course, mandatory. My 50 Bertram brass has fired approx 30 rounds each over the past 14years without a problem or split neck. Incidently it is head stamped "Coors Schutzenfest 1992". Collectors here go mad, offering swaps of two new cases for one of these.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/My_577_450.jpg

[carpetman]

Bad Ass Wallace--Those cases stamped "Coors Schutzenfest" do indeed sound like a collectors item. Buckshot would never ask you for one. Even he knows that a Corrs doesn't go with a Martini.

[9.3X62AL]

Cool picture, BA Wallace!

When I see folks shooting the 577/450 like Rick and others here, I don't feel like such an arcana enthusiast with my 7.65 MAS pistol, 25-35 WCF Win 94, or Nagant revolver.

[Buckshot]

...........BA Wallace, ditto Dep Al. Cool picture. AT first I thought the rifle had recoiled and your left hand grip had been loosened. However I see a cartirdge between the fingers of your right hand, so am supposing you're left is dropping to operate the lever and insert that round ................Before the Fuzzy Wuzzies get there of course.

I don't see fixed bayonets, so the opposition still couldn't be too close yet D:

..............Buckshot

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have plenty of Martini's, this one an 1886, an 1885 Artillary carbine, several 303 rifles and a 1901 Cavelary carbine. I've bought & sold many over the years to end up with all excellent to mint bores that can really shoot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/My_577_450_2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/303_cast.jpg

These cast loads for the 303's are a 190gn .314 GC with 28gn 3031. I can regularly ring the steel plate at 200yds with them at our range..

[Frank46]

I have one of these, a little Carbine that looks like it could hurt me with full loads! I'd like to load for it and would like to keep them on the "light" side, just for paper-punching.

Do you form your own cases from 24 ga brass shotgun shells or buy them already formed? Looking at the price of cases, being $2.50 each, I'm thinking I could pay for a set of case-forming dies in a hundred cases or so! If I read the catalog correctly, CH4D makes a set of forming dies for about $170. I emailed them asking if that forming set would work using the CBC 24 Ga brass shotgun shells as the parent.
I had an 1885 long lever complete with forming and reloading dies. Paid more
for the dies than the entire rifle. Say to say I sold it and now wished I had not. Used to use 4759 with a toilet paper wad to keep the powder against the primer. And since I was shooting at an indoor range that proved to be very interesting. Every so often the wad would get blown out and burst into flame. Range officer wanted to know what the heck I was shooting in that thing. Either handloader or rifle magazine did a two article run on that rifle some years back. The author was Jim Jukes, you may want to try a search through their archives and get these articles. Believe one bullet used was lyman's 457125. Frank

[TomcatPC]

Hopefully in the not so distant future I will have many questions to ask about loading the .577"/.450" Cartridge. I quit smoking in Dec 2007 and used the cash I saved to buy a Martini-Henry Mk.II Rifle. Being the good third generation English American that I am, I just had to have one LOL. Due to current economics it will be a while till I can buy the kit, but at least I have the rifle.
Cheers
Mark

[JeffinNZ]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the understatement of the year:

"I have one of these, a little Carbine that looks like it could hurt me with full loads!"

:mrgreen: lol

Jim at CBE is a really good bet for a .577/450 specific bullet. Martini Henry's are reknown for 'fat' barrels.

[mpmarty]

Many years ago, bought a Martini for $15.00 and dipped it in solvent to remove the grease. Went looking for ammo and got laughed out of the stores. Got mad and unscrewed the barrel and cut off the breech end and rethreaded / rechambered to 45/70 and after the first firing just neck sized with a lee loader as the cases swelled to fill the oversized bore. No more problems finding cases to load.