I'm aggravated....powder

[beagle]

Just got my newest Handloader magazine this week and browsed it and laid it aside cover down. Looked at the add on back for Alliant powder. It's bad enough not to find Alliant powder on dealer's shelves without having it thrown in our faces as an advertisement to sell and none available. For sure ATKs got enough on their plate making and distrusting enough powder to see as is without advertising something they can't provide. End of rant./beagle

[MtGun44]

You DO know that all the manufacturer's are running at max capacity now, don't you?

What would you do differently if you were in charge? Once you get to 24/7 it is tough to do
much more in anything in less than a couple of years to add a new unit.

No offense, but I have worked in manufacturing for decades and the chemical process
industry, too and there is only so much to be gotten from a production unit, no matter
how much you want more output.

The problem is a whole lot of folks getting into reloading due to ammo shortages which
are caused by the combination of a WHOLE lot of new shooters due to relaxed concealed
carry and much more interest in having some ammo 'laid by' for an emergency.

Everybody I talk to in the industry is busting their butts to get product out the door and
just barely staying even, or gaining slightly on the backlogs. The only thing I have heard
that sounds like a long term fix is that Remington announced that they were opening a
new .22 rimfire factory, but that it would take 2 years to come on line. That was about
a year or year and a half ago, so maybe in the next 12 months there will be a new
flow of .22 ammo, thank goodness.

Bill

[freebullet]

No need to advertise when all your products are over sold/backordered .

[ShooterAZ]

The manufacturers are running at full capacity, and people are still hoarding. Iv'e got a pretty good stock of powder, but there's a few that I really would like to have and none to be found. 5744 and Bullseye to be specific.

[dbosman]

If all the back-ordered manufacturers dropped their advertising, most shooting related publications and a number of websites would be out of business.

[Zymurgy50]

Print advertising is sold months in advance of publication dates, and I would be willing to bet the cover for that issue was printed at least a month or more ago.

[376Steyr]

It's not my fault. Just because I grabbed the last 8 lb jug of Super Whammo Blaster powder off the shelf, whose only known use is in the .460 Rhino Thumper, and I only hunt ground squirrels, and my only rifle is a .22 Hornet, that doesn't mean I'm part of the supply and demand problem.:roll:

[jonp]

The manufacturers are running at full capacity, and people are still hoarding. Iv'e got a pretty good stock of powder, but there's a few that I really would like to have and none to be found. 5744 and Bullseye to be specific.
If i were still in flagstaff id let you have the 4lbs of be i have. Been sittng on my shelf for 2yrs

[jonp]

It's not my fault. Just because I grabbed the last 8 lb jug of Super Whammo Blaster powder off the shelf, whose only known use is in the .460 Rhino Thumper, and I only hunt ground squirrels, and my only rifle is a .22 Hornet, that doesn't mean I'm part of the supply and demand problem.:roll:
Easy for a guy shooting a 376 steyr to say [smilie=1:

[WILCO]

No need to advertise when all your products are over sold/backordered .

Not true. It's called "Market Share".

[WILCO]

You DO know that all the manufacturer's........

Well said Bill.

[shooter2]

I hit the local Cabelas today. NO POWDER, NO PRIMERS, NO 22 ammo. It's been that way for a long time. JMHO, but that says they all did a crappy job of reading the market and planning. In most businesses that would spell doom. Someone should be fired.

As to market share, what is there to share if the shelves are empty?

[texassako]

They can buy all the ad space they want IMO. Ad sales keep the magazines going. I wondered if they profiled Retumbo because that is all anybody can find, super slow stuff?

[bangerjim]

+1 Ads keep mags rolling.

A lot of the powder never makes it to the shelf for you due to "unkle bubba" getting a call from your LGS telling him they got in a case of Unique.

You know it happens!!!!!!!

I have no problem finding powder when I need it. But NOT a Cabellas or BigASSPROSHOP!

banger

[9w1911]

guys around here in Reno are buying it up and reselling it for 2x the price, I am going internet from now on, and just buying in 8lb jugs

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Try living 3/4 day drive from Western Powders / Alliant and they wont sell it too you even though they have it >:(
the big drag here is the rule changes on shipping, they cant ship enough on one truck to make it worth going to Podunkville so we dont get any.

[DeanWinchester]

To anyone who wants the component manufacturers to "do better";

When you pull the trigger, Do you REALLY want a product that was manufactured in a rush?

When you rush things, quality suffers. When I was a machinist I heard one line a LOT. You can have it right, or you can have it right now but not both.

When I touch off a good dose of Unique I wanna know they took the time needed to do it right.

[mrvmax]

No need to advertise when all your products are over sold/backordered .
I think you need to tell Kel-Tec that. I swear they purposely keep demand way higher than production.

[Shuz]

What I can't figger out is how smaller shops like the Black Sheep in Coeur d'Alene, Id. can have oodles of powder and primers on their shelves, yet the big whoop dee do Cabela's in Post Falls, 9 miles down I-90, doesn't have anything in comparison!

[jcwit]

And I refuse to believe this on going shortage of powder, primers, bullets, .22's, loaded ammo, and everything else is being created by a bunch of old retired guys living on Social Security and Disability checks and are attempting to supplement their income by selling said products at the local gun shows.

However is in fact this is the case, how much of this income is being reported?

[RogerDat]

Simply put there was a run and hoarding as a result of concerns first after the election of a pro regulation President and then a second run based on concerns about Congress getting involved. The first run depleted supply, so that the second run created shortages.

Instead of supply being on the store shelves or in distributors or manufacturers warehouse the supply is in peoples basements or garages. I'm not going to rag on anyone that is snapping up supplies well beyond the "normal" amount they keep on hand. I will point out that after the gas crisis back in the 70's someone later figured out that production (supply) was well over actual usage (normal demand) but that much of the supply was in 5 gallon cans in peoples garages or tied up in everyone topping the vehicles fuel tank at every opportunity (hoarding) causing the shortages that did occur, driving more hoarding, creating more shortages.

It was a kind of stupid that the public created their own gas shortage and drove up price, but then again the collection of idiots in DC was not talking about banning private ownership of gasoline either so one could say hoarding ammo or reloading supplies is somewhat more rational but we all as a group live with the consequences of individual choices to snap up everything that we can find.

I generally purchase ammo every year or 18 months, I notice I'm getting low on something, take general inventory, and over the next month or two look for good deals to rebuild stock to the amount I like to keep on hand. Just so happens that this time it coincided with Congress considering legislation so there was not much to buy and nothing that looked like a deal. I figure short of the zombie apocalypse I have enough ammo I can wait a bit.

I also just by chance and bad luck went looking for my first reloading equipment when the run had pretty much any press at a 6 month back order. Now I'm using a Lee loader.... and waiting for all that "like new" equipment to end up on ebay at a good price. Or since the press manufactures have now pretty much caught up I can purchase new. Maybe some of those panic or scarcity driven purchasers of reloading equipment will help grow the community instead of dumping the equipment or stashing it on a shelf. One can hope for a positive outcome right?

[lmfd20]

What I can't figger out is how smaller shops like the Black Sheep in Coeur d'Alene, Id. can have oodles of powder and primers on their shelves, yet the big whoop dee do Cabela's in Post Falls, 9 miles down I-90, doesn't have anything in comparison!
It's easy to keep powder on the shelf when you are a small single store walk in retailer. Little harder when you serve tens if not hundreds of millions online and at retail. I'm assuming the status of the small store. My LGS has had a stockpile of powder and primers through all of this but there is a reason. I just ordered and received 46 pounds of powder and 5k of primers online for the same price I could buy 15 pounds of powder and 5k of primers at the LGS. They can keep it for the prices they want.

[gray wolf]

I for one am just not buying into this crapppp, working 24/7 my butt, working for who ??
Not us. Sorry but Bubba ain't buying up all the supplies. If they are working 24/7 then lets see the goods Eh. It's got to be on the shelves for people to buy it.
Cabellas, Midway, powder valley, grafs, mid south, nat ches, all the major players are out of everything and have been for a long time. Big deal, a little shows up here and there, that don't make 24/7 production.
They may be making it but it ain't foe us, what about the billions of rounds the Gov. bought ? that would make em work 24/7 No brass, no powder, no projectiles, no primers. The biggest dealers have been out,
so wares the Beef folks. Gun control is a huge thing now, I personally think we are being shamed, the next time they tell you they are working round the clock, ask them FOR WHO, cause it ain't us--over a year now.
sorry for the spelling

[freebullet]

You can't buy market share if there is no product to share with your clients.

There is no shortage here.

I don't want anything that says kel Tec. I gave them a good honest chance and they failed me.

[Love Life]

They can buy all the ad space they want IMO. Ad sales keep the magazines going. I wondered if they profiled Retumbo because that is all anybody can find, super slow stuff?

Retumbo is good stuff with 107 gr SMK in the .243 Winchester. I hope more comes in stock before I burn up my last 2 1/2 lbs. If not, then 7828 it is!!

[MtGun44]

Sorry gray wolf, I think you got it wrong. The stuff is going into the normal channels, but much of
it is bought very soon after it hits the shelves. Many reasons, but the factories ARE running at max output
and the products are shipping, even though it may not look like it. I would guess that the powder
is mostly being diverted into production of ammo. If you run your ammo plants 3 shifts instead
of one or two shifts, how much extra powder and primer will you be diverting from the
reloading channel? Me thinks ALOT.

For example, Walmarts near me all have lots of .223 Fed (Lake City) in stock, multiple 50 cal
cans full of XM193 on strippers, and in smaller batches, too. Not too cheap, IIRC it was
$470 for 900 or something like that, not cheap, but get strippers and 50 cal can with it, and
top grade ammo. Starting to be .45 ACP and .38 Spl, too in Walmart. They are slowly getting
ahead of the hoarders, except for .22 LR. . . . . . . the creatins are still lining up to buy out every
bit of it to hoard or sell on the net.

Bill

[jcwit]

Sorry gray wolf, I think you got it wrong. The stuff is going into the normal channels, but much of
it is bought very soon after it hits the shelves. Many reasons, but the factories ARE running at max output
and the products are shipping, even though it may not look like it. I would guess that the powder
is mostly being diverted into production of ammo. If you run your ammo plants 3 shifts instead
of one or two shifts, how much extra powder and primer will you be diverting from the
reloading channel? Me thinks ALOT.

For example, Walmarts near me all have lots of .223 Fed (Lake City) in stock, multiple 50 cal
cans full of XM193 on strippers, and in smaller batches, too. Not too cheap, IIRC it was
$470 for 900 or something like that, not cheap, but get strippers and 50 cal can with it, and
top grade ammo. Starting to be .45 ACP and .38 Spl, too in Walmart. They are slowly getting
ahead of the hoarders, except for .22 LR. . . . . . . the creatins are still lining up to buy out every
bit of it to hoard or sell on the net.

Bill

We have one of the big distributors here in central Michigan, who has none and isn't getting any even tho it on order and has been. So tell me again just how its going thru "normal" channels and being snatched up by all the gray hairs to supplement the retirement income.

Ain't buying that story anymore. If in fact this was the case tell me why match ammo is still readily available, at the same price point it was a few years ago?

I'll believe it when I personally see it.

[Lead Fred]

and people are still hoarding

Has nothing to do with the 2.5 billion rounds homeland has nothing to do with this

[FISH4BUGS]

I think I am a typical volume caster/reloader. I shoot full auto thus go through a fair amount of components. However, I have slacked off my full auto shooting for a while until I build my stock of components. I have no idea how much is "enough".
Over the last 5 years I have scrounged (yes, hoarded) in excess of a ton of wheel weights. I always bought my primers in lots of 5000 anyway. Powder was always bought in 8 lb jugs anyway. Brass was bought in lots of 5000 anyway. That's what you do when you shoot machine guns.
However, now I buy whenever it is available whether I need it or not. I stumbled across an 8 lb jug of 748 at $170 at a large gun store. That same store had some primers and I bought 5000 small pistol at $28/1000. I bought both of them. Did I need it? No. But now I have 3 8 lb jugs of 748 and 15,000 small pistol primers. That adds to the 16 lbs of 296 and 16 lbs of 231, 10,000 small rifle and 10,000 large rifle primers. 5000 large pistol, 5000 large pistol magnum and 5000 small pistol magnum primers round out the inventory.
My name is Donald and I am a hoarder. I am the problem folks. I admit it. Take me and multiply me by MILLIONS of people stocking up, hoarding, prepping, etc. and THAT is the reason for the shortage. Particularly with the 22's.
Dillon is running 24x7. Lee is running 24x7. EVERYONE is running 24x7.
It takes MILLIONS of dollars to ramp up a production line from scratch. I think the manufacturers are hesitant to invest that kind of money in this political environment. They could be wiped out in the stroke of a pen. They could be wiped out with a Democratic Congress and House.
People like me is the problem. Not the manufacturers.

[Lloyd Smale]

something more the horders is going on with aliant. There hasnt been any reloader 19,22 or 25 for almost 2 years now. Im not just talking local gunshops im talking even the big distributors. I can see them needing time to catch up after the last rush but these rushes have happened a number of times and recovery hasnt taken this long.

[mrvmax]

FYI, I am an FFL and I sell firearms as a side job (or hobby). I check my distributors (I have about 5 that sell powder) numerous times a day for new powder that has been placed in stock so I can buy whatever I need and sell the rest. When it does show up in stock, within a matter of minutes it will all be sold and there is no way of knowing what came in when I was not checking. On another note, online distributors (like Midsouth) have their powder for sale at less than my cost. I know that the places that sell large quantities get much better discounts since they buy in massive quantities but it makes it harder for me to make any money on it. I am sure there are a lot of little gun shops that are int eh same boat.

[cbrick]

Not just Alliant, other powders are the same such as Vihtavouri, none anyplace, not just gone as they get it, there just hasn't been any.

Rick

[jcwit]

I think I am a typical volume caster/reloader. I shoot full auto thus go through a fair amount of components. However, I have slacked off my full auto shooting for a while until I build my stock of components. I have no idea how much is "enough".
Over the last 5 years I have scrounged (yes, hoarded) in excess of a ton of wheel weights. I always bought my primers in lots of 5000 anyway. Powder was always bought in 8 lb jugs anyway. Brass was bought in lots of 5000 anyway. That's what you do when you shoot machine guns.
However, now I buy whenever it is available whether I need it or not. I stumbled across an 8 lb jug of 748 at $170 at a large gun store. That same store had some primers and I bought 5000 small pistol at $28/1000. I bought both of them. Did I need it? No. But now I have 3 8 lb jugs of 748 and 15,000 small pistol primers. That adds to the 16 lbs of 296 and 16 lbs of 231, 10,000 small rifle and 10,000 large rifle primers. 5000 large pistol, 5000 large pistol magnum and 5000 small pistol magnum primers round out the inventory.
My name is Donald and I am a hoarder. I am the problem folks. I admit it. Take me and multiply me by MILLIONS of people stocking up, hoarding, prepping, etc. and THAT is the reason for the shortage. Particularly with the 22's.
Dillon is running 24x7. Lee is running 24x7. EVERYONE is running 24x7.
It takes MILLIONS of dollars to ramp up a production line from scratch. I think the manufacturers are hesitant to invest that kind of money in this political environment. They could be wiped out in the stroke of a pen. They could be wiped out with a Democratic Congress and House.
People like me is the problem. Not the manufacturers.

Sorry guy, I've yet to see those "millions" buying in the stores.

Just as I've yet to hear of all the U.S./Canadian border hospitals being swamped with Canadian patient's because Canada's health care is so bad.


Dillon is running 24x7. Lee is running 24x7. EVERYONE is running 24x7.

And you know this as an indisputable fact? How so?

[jcwit]

But now I have 3 8 lb jugs of 748 and 15,000 small pistol primers. That adds to the 16 lbs of 296 and 16 lbs of 231, 10,000 small rifle and 10,000 large rifle primers. 5000 large pistol, 5000 large pistol magnum and 5000 small pistol magnum primers round out the inventory.

That isn't even a big hoard, but then I stocked mine way before this madness started.

Primers were less than 40 bucks a sleeve of 5,000, powder was less than $8.00 a lb in 8 lb jugs.

Plinking .22's $5/8 bucks a brick.

[762 shooter]

I guess it's all in the timing.

If you bought your supplies over a year ago at "normal prices" you are a smart consumer.

If you are buying your supplies now at inflated prices, you are a hoarder.



762

[taiden]

It's no conspiracy. You can see the hoarding / stocking up / scare buying plain as day. When our local Dicks gets a pallet of Winchester 550 22lr, the word spreads like wildfire. They will have about 500 boxes on the shelf at 9AM and by 11AM it's all gone. The next day, about a quarter of it is in the local classifieds at double the price. The day after that, the classifieds are gone.

I can only imagine this is happening at every big box ammo retailer around the nation.

Supply and demand, people. Supply is relatively fixed, but the demand is extremely high. Everyone's desire to "not be caught with their pants down" for "the next shortage" is just extending the existing shortage by buying stuff so fast it never stays on the shelves.

But I can't blame anyone. I have a 10/22 to feed, and when I hear about ammo, I go buy it, because who knows when I'll see it next.

(That said, our little local gun store always has 50rnd boxes in stock, ranging from $4 a box to $7 a box. It's too bad, but hey, it's cheaper than anything else and you can get it whenever you want. That's worth a small premium in my mind.)

[daengmei]

I can almost forecast the ammo arrival at the local Walmart when I see the parking lined up outside. Go inside and look for ammo, yep, several folks who have been waiting for the stocking to finish. One says, hey your lucky, you just walked right up and it's ready. If there is any 22 it's sold right then and someone always behind me is grumbling....Some of them don't know the brands, caliber or anything, just want them little bullets.

[perotter]

It's no conspiracy. You can see the hoarding / stocking up / scare buying plain as day.....

Supply and demand, people. Supply is relatively fixed, but the demand is extremely high. Everyone's desire to "not be caught with their pants down" for "the next shortage" is just extending the existing shortage by buying stuff so fast it never stays on the shelves.

...

Where is the REX powders that used to be brought into the country? What about the Russian Unique? Why haven't they been coming into the country for the last few years? Why is the Vihtavuori plant being shutdown because of there being excess powder making capacity in Europe(world)?

Hard to believe that suddenly a number of people no longer want to make a little more money. While I believe that Alliant and St. Marks are running flat out, these are few questions I have that I'd like to get good answers to.

[perotter]

Just as I've yet to hear of all the U.S./Canadian border hospitals being swamped with Canadian patient's because Canada's health care is so bad.



They aren't swamped because only those with higher paying government jobs or a top job in a large corp can afford to come here. Any one who doubts that come to Rochester next summer for a couple of weeks. Spend the evenings on the river walk, downtown area, concert in the park, etc.

You'll meet a number of Canadians. Engage in a pleasant conversation with them and you'll learn that they are here for the Mayo Clinic health care. None of them will be blue collar workers, engineers, etc.

[jonp]

At first I was buying the hoarding and other explanations about the lack of powder supply but now I'm beginning to wonder. More people are reloading and ammo is being bought but there are only so many new re-loaders and people that might hoard some powder and a limited supply of powder at that. Something is beginning to not smell right to me.

[Moondawg]

The manufacturers are running at full capacity, and people are still hoarding. Iv'e got a pretty good stock of powder, but there's a few that I really would like to have and none to be found. 5744 and Bullseye to be specific.

The UPS man left me 5 lbs of 5744, the day after New Years. Powder Valley had plenty of it a week or so ago.

[oldred]

Think about it this way, ammo/powder makers were pretty much running a balancing act pre-panic but let's assume they had the ability to double production capacity, I doubt very much they had the ability to produce 100% more than regular production but let's assume they did. Now suddenly there's 200%, 300% or even more demand with no end in sight so how could anyone reasonably expect to see much product on the shelves? How much increased demand is there actually? Probably well in excess of that 300% increase when new shooters/reloaders/Hoarders are added to the demand that was already there and how many of the people who think of themselves as non-hoarders (how many people reading this) would grab up a favorite product that has been scarce if they happened upon it whether needed or not? There's no conspiracy, all it takes is a bit of logical thinking and not only does the reason for the shortage make sense but it's also obvious that it shouldn't be expected to ease to any semblance of what we might call normal anytime soon.


I am willing to bet that MOST folks who normally kept only a brick or two of 22 ammo before the panic but have 10 or 12 stashed away now would still buy more if they could find it at a reasonable price! Multiply that by the many thousands upon thousands of people looking for RF ammo that was hardly interested at all before the panic and it's easy to see why the shelves are bare and going to stay bare for a while, same goes for some other products. We may not like it and there might not be much we can do but shouting about some silly Government conspiracy theory doesn't make sense when the problem is quite easy to see.

[taiden]

I'm with oldred on this one. A business will not typically have manufacturing capacities well above their expected output for the next few years. It's simply a waste of money. Then when demand quadruples without much warning, they, quite simply, do not have the ability to produce that much. And when that happens, shelves go dry. I don't think it can get any more simple than that.

I think we get too emotionally invested... Politicians constantly move in on gun rights, this must be the other way to stop us from having guns! If you can't shoot it, it's just a chunk of expensive steel! I even scare myself just typing that and I don't even believe it.

[Moondawg]

Regarding foreign made powder/primers/brass: Does the federal government have any say in how much can be imported, how long it takes to get a shipload inspected and approved so that load can get out for distribution etc. I recall about 20 years ago there was a shortage of V V powder. The feds supposedly had the ship full of V V tied up in red tape and it set at the dock for ages waiting for the feds to release it so it could unload. True, maybe, maybe not. I do know the feds are great at delaying things they don't like.

[oldred]

Regarding foreign made powder/primers/brass: Does the federal government have any say in how much can be imported, how long it takes to get a shipload inspected and approved so that load can get out for distribution etc. I recall about 20 years ago there was a shortage of V V powder. The feds supposedly had the ship full of V V tied up in red tape and it set at the dock for ages waiting for the feds to release it so it could unload. True, maybe, maybe not. I do know the feds are great at delaying things they don't like.


OTOH it seems the Russian ammo, primers, etc are in better supply than the domestic stuff? At least it sure seems that way here. We also have to consider that the ammo manufacturers, due to needing more components to make all that extra ammo, are sucking up some items that we are not finding. This could easily account for specific powders, etc being harder to find than some others, powders for example made exclusively for the reloading market would seem to be more available than one that is also used (or a variation of anyway) by the loaded ammo makers????

[gray wolf]

I elect to agree -- to disagree.
Sorry I ain't buying it, but I can understand the rational being used by some others.

[oldred]

Then maybe you can explain how the manufacturers can keep up with a 200-300%+ increase? There is not really that much of an increase in demand maybe? Who are all those people who line up at Wally World and any other place that gets in a stock of ammo/components? Given the OBVIOUS demand how could anyone reasonably expect to not have a shortage?

[perotter]

So why has there been no Reloader xx powder available for a long time? It's made by a company that says it has excess production capacity.

[oldred]

So why has there been no Reloader xx powder available for a long time? It's made by a company that says it has excess production capacity.

There could be any number of reasons, so a certain product is not available and it's because of a Government conspiracy? You ask so why is a certain powder not available and I will ask you, if it's a Government conspiracy why would they single out one powder over another?


The problem is obvious to anyone who wants to see it, the demand is far exceeding the supply and a trip to Wal-Mart at stocking time should make that quite obvious!

[taiden]

And as for imports stopping... why is that the majority of Powder Valley's primers are Russian?

[jonp]

The UPS man left me 5 lbs of 5744, the day after New Years. Powder Valley had plenty of it a week or so ago.

Without you ordering it he just left it for you? Now that is a true "What can Brown do for you"? story :grin:

[beagle]

Man, I started something for sure. Now, my contention is that with Alliant powders is that there should be plenty. Trap, skeet, sporting clays and hunting demands should be normal or due to the high price of shot, depressed. For sure Alliant should have historical marketing data on shotgun powders down pat. Granted, these are used in handguns and cast in rifles and there are many new casters and reloaders but their production capabilities should be sufficient to account for this increase in the year or so we have been in a shortage. .22s were a drug on the market several years ago. Powder shortage there? I don't think so as nothing I know uses .22 powder for reloading. FC's .223? FC had a government contract over run and dumped many 55 gallon plastic drums of this on the market some months back. I know a gunshop owner that purchased one and was happy. Very few of the "cheap" bulk shotshells here this fall and I looked all the way from KY through Florida at Walmarts. No pistol ammo and what was available was triple in price. Big rifle ammo was worse. Big demand? Hoarders? No way boys, we're being had by somebody and all signs are pointing to our government./beagle

[starmac]

Sportsmans will fill the ammo shelves with big rifle shells, and they might be bare, except for unpopular calibers in a day or two. I doubt the govt is coming in and buying them, but somebody is. In fact a lot of somebodies are, ast hey have a limit on how much you can buy ina day. 22 shells go away even faster, never lasting 24 hours, no matter how big the shipment is. As far as shotgun shells go, they have been stacked in the floor in a stack about 25 feet long by 4 foot wide and 3 feet tall, in every brand and configuration through this whole ordeal. Shotgun primers are almost always on the shelf, but the powder goes away quick, except for steel.

[starmac]

I was in sportsmans twice yesterday, once just a walk through to see if they had any powder, there was 1 pound of steel, that has been there several days. They has a pretty good boot sale going on, so I took the wife in around 5:30 and just for chits and grins walked back to the powder section, while she was boot shopping. They were stocking powder at the time. I looked at what I could see of it and there was nothing I was short on, but I would bet that by closing time, they probably had 1 pound of steel left and possibly a pound or three of leverrevelution left.

[ShooterAZ]

Acting on a tip from a fellow forum member (marlin39a), I drove this morning to High Country Gun & Knife in Prescott, AZ. Some 80 miles from me. These guys have an ENORMOUS powder selection. I could not believe my eyes. I got a lot of the powders I needed, plenty more on the shelves...so no... I wasn't hoarding! Not too far from Flagstaff, and not too far from Phoenix either. These guys are obviously well connected. Well worth the trip, and a big thanks to marlin39a.

[oldred]

Big rifle ammo was worse. Big demand? Hoarders? No way boys, we're being had by somebody and all signs are pointing to our government./beagle


You're probably right all those people lined up here at Wal-Mart EVERY Saterday morning are all secret Government agents assigned to buy up all the shooting supplies, that explains all the black SUVs in the parking lot!

Come on man, a Government conspiracy? That's just plain silly, look at what you posted, why would certain powders be in shorter supply if the Government was behind it?

THINK for a minute, there is far more ammo and shooting supplies now in the hands of Americans than there was a couple of years ago and it's increasing everyday so just what is this "conspiracy" supposed to be accomplishing? Just find out when your local Wally-World restocks and go in and see it for yourself who is buying this stuff, it arrives all right but it gets sold PDQ!! This is not hear-say I have witnessed it myself and stood in that line, Wal-Mart sells tons more ammo than they did just a year ago! All that extra production capacity and all that ammo and components that arrives only to be sold in a few hours or even minutes at places like Wal-Mart has gone into personal stocks all around the country, almost every one of us have "stashes" that we didn't have before and if not we know lots of people who do, that's where the ammo is going!

[MtGun44]

Two Walmarts in KC have moderate quantities of .40, 9mm, 45 ACP, .357 on the shelf two weeks ago,
and several boxes each of .223 Fed Lake City XM193 (~ 400 rds, I forget) and a couple each of
50 cal ammo cans of .223 on strippers, again Fed Lake City XM193. Also, saw this in central Virginia
Walmart, a week later, pretty much the same. Starting to be some ammo out there, but no .22 rimfire.

Bill

[jcwit]

They aren't swamped because only those with higher paying government jobs or a top job in a large corp can afford to come here. Any one who doubts that come to Rochester next summer for a couple of weeks. Spend the evenings on the river walk, downtown area, concert in the park, etc.

You'll meet a number of Canadians. Engage in a pleasant conversation with them and you'll learn that they are here for the Mayo Clinic health care. None of them will be blue collar workers, engineers, etc.

Mayo Clinic takes care of people from all over the world as does the Cleveland Clinic, totally different than the avg, hospital along the border.

[jcwit]

Sorry oldred, I still don't buy it, there's a skunk under the porch.

If in fact it is all the grey hairs, there is a huge underground economy that needs to be tapped.

[jcwit]

Odd that one factory "Lake City" was able to keep up with the wars we been in for the last number of years.

[starmac]

Odd that one factory "Lake City" was able to keep up with the wars we been in for the last number of years.

I'm sure they still are. I would like to know how much more small arms ammo the military uses in wartime versus peace time, just for curiosity sake. I know the base range here gets a lot of activity in the form of down range small arms ammo and not so small too. They shoot something some days that you can actually feel it shake a loaded semi on the highway before you here the noise. The first time I felt it I stopped thinking I had blown a tire. lol

[oldred]

Sorry oldred, I still don't buy it, there's a skunk under the porch.

If in fact it is all the grey hairs, there is a huge underground economy that needs to be tapped.

Makes no difference if you "buy it" or not the fact is there are more guns and ammunition being sold, and have been sold in the last year, than in any time in history so how is that a conspiracy? Are you saying there's a Government conspiracy to put guns and ammo in the hands of citizens, because that's what's happening! Of course the Tin Foil Hat crowd sees a conspiracy in EVERYTHING so it's no surprise here but the rest of us can see quite clearly why the shelves are bare and if you would go to Wal-Mart at stocking time you would too!


I keep using Wal-Mart as an example because it's so well known but other dealers in shooting supplies are experiencing the same thing, they get supplies in but it gets sold before it hits the shelves (bought up immediately by those G-Men posing as customers, Lol)

92664

[monadnock#5]

My problem with the ammo companies is that for the last few years what they really needed to do was pound out the 2 or 3 rifle calibers and half dozen pistol calibers that 97.5% of gun owners, prepper, hoarders, flippers..... needed for them to pound out. If they had done this, and still come up short, I'd be OK with that. I'm rather compassionate when I can see people doing their best.
Instead, what I see is ammo makers pumping out the same old same old, in the same ratios. 24/7 doesn't impress me if what they're making isn't what I want to buy.
This panic has bred a smarter consumer. Those who purchase in case quantities when cases are available have my respect. Regardless of how you feel personally about hoarders/preppers, they are a force in the marketplace. It doesn't matter in the least what we and the manufacturers think about them. They are not going away any time soon, so let's just deal with it and move on.
I don't believe government is calling the shots in any of this. My fear is that the #1 priority for the manufacturers is to try their best not to draw big brother and big media attention to themselves. Yeah, right, good luck with that.

[cbrick]

what I see is ammo makers pumping out the same old same old, in the same ratios. 24/7 doesn't impress me if what they're making isn't what I want to buy.

Interesting. So what the ammo makers really need to be doing is thumbing their collective noses at everyone and their needs, except you of course, what you want to buy they should make in quantity. Everybody else is simply unimportant.

I'll wait for your post explaining what the ammo makers response to your request is. No doubt they will jump all over that opportunity.

Amazing.

Rick

[monadnock#5]

Interesting. So what the ammo makers really need to be doing is thumbing their collective noses at everyone and their needs, except you of course, what you want to buy they should make in quantity. Everybody else is simply unimportant.

I'll wait for your post explaining what the ammo makers response to your request is. No doubt they will jump all over that opportunity.

Amazing.

Rick
Go back an read paragraph 1. Unless it's too much bother of course.

[oldred]

Those who purchase in case quantities when cases are available have my respect. Regardless of how you feel personally about hoarders/preppers, they are a force in the marketplace. It doesn't matter in the least what we and the manufacturers think about them. They are not going away any time soon, so let's just deal with it and move on.
I don't believe government is calling the shots in any of this. My fear is that the #1 priority for the manufacturers is to try their best not to draw big brother and big media attention to themselves. Yeah, right, good luck with that.


I would think the manufacturers would be spending their over-time dollars to make what ammo is the most profitable to them and that may very well be some of the normally slower moving stuff with a much bigger profit margin, since they can sell all they make regardless of how well it moves in a normal market they will make what makes them the most bucks. Maybe as the market for that kind of stuff slows down they will switch over to some of the faster moving but less profitable ammo.

As far as Government involvement and the shortage I think you "hit the nail on the head" with that line about the hoarders/preppers being a force in the market, there are many thousands of people trying to "stock up" now that would only keep a few rounds on hand before and some thousands more that kept no ammo at all are now buying in quantity when they can find it. This is a huge market to deal with and the demand is not going down anytime soon for a lot of items, I think 22 RF will be the last we see get back to "normal" if it EVER does!

[dbosman]

Let's blame Sons of Guns and Red Jacket Firearms and the Discovery channel.
Before that show how many yahoos knew it was even legal to own full auto?

While I'm at it I'm going to blame the storage locker and auction shows for driving up the price of scrap brass at the government liquidation auctions. The shipping war shows too. Every one wants one of those two babes with a trailer delivering to their house. Most of the guys I don't want to run into unless I'm doing highway speed.

The math for why industry can't keep up with current demand is solid and I'd thought easy to understand.
People who used to purchase boxes now purchase bricks.
People who used to purchase bricks now purchase cases.
People who used to purchase cases are now looking for skids. I've no idea where those people are getting their money.

[ShooterAZ]

According to jcwit, it's all the "grey hairs". Count me as one of them. I'm not hoarding, I'm shooting and reloading and shooting a lot!

[monadnock#5]

[QUOTE=oldred;2559640]I would think the manufacturers would be spending their over-time dollars to make what ammo is the most profitable to them and that may very well be some of the normally slower moving stuff with a much bigger profit margin, since they can sell all they make regardless of how well it moves in a normal market they will make what makes them the most bucks. Maybe as the market for that kind of stuff slows down they will switch over to some of the faster moving but less profitable ammo.

I would think that the manufacturers would spend their overtime hours putting out the specific products that get the most customers off their backs,,,while at the same time raking in record profits.

[shdwlkr]

Something I wonder how many know
the feds get first call on any ammo
the police second
the third is us

If you find powder take a look where it is made, a lot of mine comes from Australia, Canada, Belgium, very little is made here anymore.
Next we have a government that is at an all time high in production of ammo for all orders. The police state, county, local, and all those new special police from various federal agencies are placing orders that are larger than in the past so they have ammo on site. Of course the special agencies with federal affiliation get first.

Lake City keeps going because they are run by ATK which by the way has dumped millions into LC to increase production over the time they have had the contract. Yes they take primers, brass, powder, bullets from the rest of the company but would you want our men and women in the front lines to short on ammo? As to production quantities I am betting it is in the millions each day. I know they produce 45 acp, 9mm, 5.56mm, 308, 50 cal, 20mm at LC and that is every day. Any LC you see available for us is rejected military. Which means it failed one test, seal on primers or bullets, anneal not right, fps not right, color wrong on case, powder charge wrong, bullet seated to deep not deep enough, etc. minor but in the eyes of the military not good enough.
Now one last thing we have a lot of new shooters in the last 5 years think millions and they all want ammo. Has to have some effect on the availability of ammo, any reloading supplies. Are companies running full out? My bet they are really working hard on some things but others maybe not so much. I also pretty confident that it will be a while before we see stocks again in most places and the price will be higher than before.

[jcwit]

Makes no difference if you "buy it" or not the fact is there are more guns and ammunition being sold, and have been sold in the last year, than in any time in history so how is that a conspiracy? Are you saying there's a Government conspiracy to put guns and ammo in the hands of citizens, because that's what's happening! Of course the Tin Foil Hat crowd sees a conspiracy in EVERYTHING so it's no surprise here but the rest of us can see quite clearly why the shelves are bare and if you would go to Wal-Mart at stocking time you would too!


I keep using Wal-Mart as an example because it's so well known but other dealers in shooting supplies are experiencing the same thing, they get supplies in but it gets sold before it hits the shelves (bought up immediately by those G-Men posing as customers, Lol)

92664

Never said or claimed there is/was a government conspiracy have I?

But I just don't buy this whole thing about everybody working 24/7 full bore and virtually nothing is out their. And others claiming the same old men show up every day and buy up all the ammo when W/M gets their shipment. Plus most claim its the same 6 to 10 guys buying up the ammo, ya right, like that's a huge bunch of folks buying up huge quantities a stock, give me a break.

Then these same old goats are selling the ammo at gun shows, well I've been to a few gun shows lately and fail to see the huge stocks of ammo the oldsters are selling, a few bricks yes but not large quantities.

Yes it does "make a difference" whether "I buy it" at least to me, or am I just to take your opinion about the whole reason for the shortage? No one else is allowed an opinion or their ideas?

You claim they are running 24/7, just how do you know that for a fact. You claim they are shipping as fast as they can, you know that also for a fact? Just to who are they shipping all this production, I suppose you know that also.

There's a skunk under the porch!

[jcwit]

According to jcwit, it's all the "grey hairs". Count me as one of them. I'm not hoarding, I'm shooting and reloading and shooting a lot!

No I'm not claiming it all the grey hairs. But so many claim it always the same folks at Wally who are buying up the ammo to supplement their SS and Disability pensions buy reselling at gun shows. Plus its always the same 6 to 10 guys, like that going to but a huge dent in the shipments Wally gets.

There is a skunk under the porch.

[perotter]

There could be any number of reasons, so a certain product is not available and it's because of a Government conspiracy? You ask so why is a certain powder not available and I will ask you, if it's a Government conspiracy why would they single out one powder over another?


The problem is obvious to anyone who wants to see it, the demand is far exceeding the supply and a trip to Wal-Mart at stocking time should make that quite obvious!

I don't believe I posted anything about it being a government conspiracy. It's not only that powder not coming in, as I posted before in one my other posts. Rex and Russian Unique aren't around. So lets see Sweden, Belgium, Russia, Canada, Australia, Hungary, Czech republic, Serbia, Finland, Switzerland are all short on powder for some reason. So what are the reasons they are all short on powder?

Anyway in a few weeks the total number of rounds sold to non-government users by US commercial manufactures will be published. We'll all have a better understanding then. It was about 12 billion rounds the other year.

[taiden]

Who publishes that data? I'd love to see it, and data from previous years as well.

[oldred]

Never said or claimed there is/was a government conspiracy have I?

But I just don't buy this whole thing about everybody working 24/7 full bore and virtually nothing is out their. And others claiming the same old men show up every day and buy up all the ammo when W/M gets their shipment. Plus most claim its the same 6 to 10 guys buying up the ammo, ya right, like that's a huge bunch of folks buying up huge quantities a stock, give me a break.

Then these same old goats are selling the ammo at gun shows, well I've been to a few gun shows lately and fail to see the huge stocks of ammo the oldsters are selling, a few bricks yes but not large quantities.

Yes it does "make a difference" whether "I buy it" at least to me, or am I just to take your opinion about the whole reason for the shortage? No one else is allowed an opinion or their ideas?

You claim they are running 24/7, just how do you know that for a fact. You claim they are shipping as fast as they can, you know that also for a fact? Just to who are they shipping all this production, I suppose you know that also.

There's a skunk under the porch!


Ok so you aren't saying there's not a conspiracy but you say there's a "skunk under the porch"???

Apparently from reading your previous posts you are refusing to believe that folks are buying as fast as it hits the shelves and that the manufacturers are not going at full production? If you can't accept that and think the ammo makers are simply lying, for whatever reason I can't imagine, then I suppose there's not much point trying to convince you but I will say this it's still true whether you believe it or not! Just because you, as you said in another post, "will believe it when you have personally seen it" does not make it just a rumor. I suggest you go look for it because it's not at all hard to find! I KNOW FOR A FACT because I have been part of it, I have personally stood in line and I have personally witnessed the workers cut open cases of ammo then scan it, ring it up and bag it until every last round was gone and not a single one was placed on the shelf! Every single time I have watched them open cases of 22 ammo every single round was sold out before all the people waiting in line got any! You also seemed to think that the stories about the same people being first in line buying up all the ammo is not true but you're dead wrong there too! These same guys are there EVERY Saturday at stocking time and until the store put a limit on them they bought every single round of 22 that came in, they are still there to buy their limit only now they bring someone with them so as to beat the limits as much as they can, this is not rumor, I have seen it and a lot of other guys here have too. Believe what you like but there is nothing that "stinks" about this except people buying more than they need.

The reason for the shortage is the HUGE demand that is far in excess of what the manufacturers were set up for and it's as simple as that, the fact is there is more ammo being sold now than before. The shelves are empty because they sell it all, it's not a case of no ammo being sold because there's not any. There's plenty of ammo and components but it is mostly sold before it even hits the shelves and until that huge market is finally glutted those shelves will remain bare..

[starmac]

Just something to think about. What possible reason would the manufacturers have to be sand bagging??? Think about it, they are selling everything hitting the shelves, and if they were greedy, the scalpers have proved to us that the manufacturers could have doubled their prices and still sell all they needed too. This is a big windfall for the manufacturers, even at old prices, and I would bet they are taking every advantage they can of it.

[shdwlkr]

The thing I would like to see is just what they margin of production was before all this **** hit.

[oldred]

The thing I would like to see is just what they margin of production was before all this **** hit.


They almost certainly had extra capacity and it would be unreasonable to think they were at near full production but I seriously doubt they had the ability to do more than double capacity and probably not even that much. Now given that the demand is obviously well in excess of twice what it was before the panic, and I would think it to be well over a 200% to 300% increase (probably a LOT more judging by the lines and still empty shelves), it would take a huge increase in capacity just to catch up with the slower moving items. This extra capacity would take a long time, several years maybe, and require many millions of dollars in capital to accomplish and by the time it was in operation the demand could well be gone so they aren't likely to do that based on a temporary panic market.

If nothing happens to start a new panic we will see this start to ease as people get their stocks built up but this could take a while because of the thousands upon thousands of people still grabbing everything in sight and shooters that kept small stocks in the past taking the attitude that" I'm not getting caught with my pants down again" plus that huge new market of folks that never kept anything stocked before that are now "laying it in while I still can".

[Lloyd Smale]

side note. I was at the local gander mountain store which is about the only reloading supply place in the area. They didnt have a single primer and all they had for powder was one keg of red dot.

[Frosty Boolit]

Just a thought here, Has anyone who is a member of a gun club noticed an explosion in the number of members in the last 2-3 years? Assuming that there is no maximum. Mine has, and there is less brass than ever on the ground or in the bucket.

[Airman Basic]

...all they had for powder was one keg of red dot.
I'll take it.

[jcwit]

Just a thought here, Has anyone who is a member of a gun club noticed an explosion in the number of members in the last 2-3 years? Assuming that there is no maximum. Mine has, and there is less brass than ever on the ground or in the bucket.

I belong to 3 clubs, one I'm an officer in, another I'm an Honorary member, and the 3rd I'm just a member, I attend the meetings of all of them. While there has been an increase in membership in all 3 the increase has been far from a big factor.

As far as brass on the ground, yes its being picked up, but by old time members. that is guys who have been members for 20 plus years.

[taiden]

Is it possible that you are in an area that has so many shooters per capita already that any increase in those participating in the sport is going to be minor, and in an area with low enough population that supplies are being sent to larger population areas instead to meet the increased demand?

[oldred]

Post deleted:

Oops, accidentally posted something I had copied/saved yesterday, it was in the wrong place here.

[jcwit]

Is it possible that you are in an area that has so many shooters per capita already that any increase in those participating in the sport is going to be minor, and in an area with low enough population that supplies are being sent to larger population areas instead to meet the increased demand?

Very doubtful. Our 4-H group is the largest in the state of Indiana, 800 kids in the shooting sport program this year, IIRC from the meeting 1-2-14 the other night. The counties of St. Joe Indiana, Mishawaka/South Bend and Elkhart county, Elkhart/Goshen are fairly high in population.

As far as retail outlets we are loaded with Wal-Marts, Goshen alone has 2, Elkhart has 2, let alone the Meijers, and lord know how many are in South Bend/Mishawaka. Then besides that there are the LGS's.

Then there are all the population and towns just across the Indiana/Michigan border.

I'm waiting to see what happens with the NRA National Small Bore Metric and SAE Matches to be held in Bristol this summer.

-

[dragon813gt]

Just a thought here, Has anyone who is a member of a gun club noticed an explosion in the number of members in the last 2-3 years? Assuming that there is no maximum. Mine has, and there is less brass than ever on the ground or in the bucket.

Yes, at the clubs I belong to there has been a huge increase in membership. Which is why they are putting in more ranges. They are over crowded and long time members, like myself, are not happy about not being able to shoot when I want to. This is why membership number limits are being discussed. There has also been an increase in damage to the property so this is a big driving factor in limiting new members as well.

And it's definitely regional when it comes to availability. I'm apparently one of those evil hoarders. I bought 80k of various CCI primers yesterday. I visited a store that I don't normally go to because I was in the area. They were running a sale on cases of CCI primers so I bought my financial limit worth. And they still had a lot left. Their powder selection was fully stocked as well. Varget and 2400 were on the shelf and they had signs up saying to ask about 4# & 8# quantities because they had them in the back. The selection of Horgdon, Alliant, VV and IMR powders was the most I've seen in awhile. And all at decent(for the times) prices. I walked out w/ some 2400 and IMR 4895. Stopped at the LGS I go to normally on the way home and they were pretty well stocked as well. Both stores even had 22lr. It was still more then I wanted to spend. But it's there for those that wanted it. It's been improving every day by me and it's almost back to normal w/ a few notable exceptions.

[mac60]

I'll take it.

Not if I saw it first!

[TXGunNut]

I scored a pound of 748 and RL7 yesterday simply because I only had one unopened bottle of each on the shelf. Price was reasonable, just wish they had some 210M's. I haven't run out of anything in years but my restocking level has gone up considerably.
The lot number for the RL7 was the same as a bottle I bought a few months ago, thought that was a little odd.
I think some LGS's are a little better at procuring and finding the right mix of powders and other compnents. I helped my LGS make a powder order awhile back and it sold out quicker than the stuff he had on the shelf. He doesn't stock much in the way of reloading components but he gives me a good deal so I help him order stuff that will sell.

[Beagle333]

Cabelas online has 2400 tonight, but only 2# at a time.:roll: