1911 Feeding Issue - TL452-230-TC

[saphelps]

Had the chance to continue shooting my cast boolits when at my parents' this past week. Ran into an issue where the initial round would chamber without issue, but upon ejection and feeding of the next round, the chamber would not close completely (about 1/8" from flush). Placing same round back into magazine and charging the gun, no issue. I've only been reloading since around May and only in last couple of months took up casting.

I'm still not 100% on the art of troubleshooting reloads, so far reloading with Berry's Plated has been 100% but I enjoy the fact that I am now shooting something I made. Seeking fellow reloader ideas on what I can do to get these rounds to feed smoothly and consistently.

I did, following the completion of the loaded rounds, run random pickings (about 32) from the lot manually to ensure proper magazine fit and chamber. Pulling and releasing by hand resulted in all rounds loading and ejecting perfectly. I also placed one round that failed to feed in manually and closed the chamber to check if it was a headspacing issue but it was fine and fired.

I believe, most likely wrong, it's one of two things: O.A.L or not enough umph in the powder. I'm first engaging the idea of O.A.L and if that is the case, how do I determine if the length is too long or too short? I cringe to reduce the length due to pressure issues and I've already broken a hand and like my still semi-functioning digits.

What's curious is I shot from the same lot last month and didn't encounter any issues and the only real difference is then it was mid-50's and most recent was low 30's and very high winds (anyone in Nebraska can attest to the winds).

Mold: Lee TL230-452-TC
Powder: Power Pistol
Powder Load: 6.4
Primer: CCI 300
C.O.A.L: 1.170
Load Source: Lyman
Firearm: Ruger SR 1911
Lube: LLA
Chrono: No readings, destroyed a diffuser when taking readings for the 9mm cast loads :(
Crimp: .473 (Hornady Taper Crimp Seating Die)
Brass: Once fired Winchester (White Box)

How do you determine a good length when seating that is reliable? I know the magazine dictates predominately. What other troubleshooting have you undergone to determine similar symptoms?

[Sweetpea]

I'm betting you need to taper crimp more...

I crimp to .470ish, some others around here crimp to .468...

[btroj]

Whatever you do don't vary more than one thing at a time. By varying only one thing at a time you know what does, or doesn't, make a difference.

[MtGun44]

Seat deeper and/or increase taper crimp. Dismount barrel and use this as a gage
to set the OAL and/or TC. TC as a separate operation, because otherwise
you can push up a bit of lead at the case mouth which can cause this. IF
seating length is too long, you will see rifling marks on the full diam part
of the boolit.

IME, about 80% of this kind of failure to close is caused by inadequate
or no TC. I TC to .468 or so.

Also, this is not a feeding issue, the round has fed fine. It is a "failure to
close", so it is an ammo issue.

Bill

[saphelps]

I'll start with taper. I actually a note I made on the label where I wrote "taper?" I never learned from testing to always go with first answer in the head.

Bill, good call on the "failure to close"

btroj, +1 on only one thing at a time. I'll first rule out crimp and go from there.

Sweetpea, thanks, I'll start at .470 and also a bit of .468 inline with your and bill's recommendations. I was paranoid about over crimping so I know now I went to light. Have the FCD, but have read too much negative when it comes to cast.

Plan is to get some more fired off this weekend at the range, weather permitting. No more access to dad's farm :(

~Shaun

[bhn22]

The next time it happens, look in the chamber and see if the case rim is in the extractor, or in front of it.

[country gent]

You say this load worked before in warmer temps and now cooler it dosnt always. may be just on the ragged edge. A slightly heavier crimp may slightly increase this and a taper crimp will give a slight lead into the chamber. How new is the pistol, How many rounds thru it, and when was the last time it was cleaned? A load from the same batch that stops performing is ussually an outside problem.

[35remington]

Correct OAL of the Lee 230 TC is in the range of 1.200 to 1.220" assuming your Ruger has a correct throat.

Remove the barrel from the pistol and check the round for fit. This is the ONLY correct way to do it. Hand cycling the gun to check the round in the chamber for fit and proper OAL is the wrong way to do it. Proper OAL is a combination of what the chamber will accept and the gun needs to function to get the next round in the magazine.

Do not taper crimp and seat in the same step.

6.4 Power Pistol should be plenty for proper function. While not Plus P it is not wimpy either, especially at the relatively short 1.170" OAL.

[saphelps]

Couldn't get a good look at where it was in relation to the extractor. It was that close to being closed. Next time I'll have my mini mag to see if I can get a better peek. When I did pull it back it did just fall into my hand instead of jumping into it. Couple others did fall down the through the grip since the mag had been removed before mucking with it.

Pistol is about 5 months old now. Has had about 700-800 factory run through for break-in. Factoring in the reloads I would estimate to be around 1500 so far. It's broken down and cleaned religiously following range (military habit) but gets an adequate amount of oil (Rem Oil) both at cleaning and a small drop here and there before being fired again. I've refrained from pulling and redoing the loads for the sole purpose of getting these tuned in. Gives good grouping and needs just a bit of tweaking for perfection.

[35remington]

I disagree to some degree with Lyman's load recommendations and OAL's some times and have the same manual. The listed OAL is to some degree nonstandard for that type of bullet. As in, a bit too short.

[MtGun44]

"Paranoid about overcrimping" -- common paranoia, but AFAIK no problems are
normally traceable to this mythical overcrimping. LOTS of problems to the very
real UNDERCRIMPING.

Bill

[saphelps]

Correct OAL of the Lee 230 TC is in the range of 1.200 to 1.220" assuming your Ruger has a correct throat.

Remove the barrel from the pistol and check the round for fit. This is the ONLY correct way to do it. Hand cycling the gun to check the round in the chamber for fit and proper OAL is the wrong way to do it. Proper OAL is a combination of what the chamber will accept and the gun needs to function to get the next round in the magazine.

Do not taper crimp and seat in the same step.

6.4 Power Pistol should be plenty for proper function. While not Plus P it is not wimpy either, especially at the relatively short 1.170" OAL.

Lyman has the OAL published at 1.170 and went with it since it was the only manual that was specific to the mold. However, I am seating and crimping at the same time until I can get another die for the purpose. For the plated bullets, I just seated and followed with the FCD.

Not ruling out the length, by no means. One step at a time and if the crimp doesn't resolve the issue, I'll be moving to testing out the lengths. Dropping the round into the barrel didn't show anything unusual, and headspacing checks lined up. The manual feeds was the final thing I did and that was done primarily to check the feed and ejection as a final quality check.

And no, it's definitely not wimpy and quite a pleasure to :Fire:

92345

[saphelps]

I disagree to some degree with Lyman's load recommendations and OAL's some times and have the same manual. The listed OAL is to some degree nonstandard for that type of bullet. As in, a bit too short.

I have to agree completely. It definitely had me scratching my head.

[gray wolf]

If the extractor did not properly engage the round you would not be able to extract the round. it would remain in the chamber. I do believe your OAL needs to be looked at, also your taper crimp may be a tad week by perhaps .002 Your cases are more than likely not the same length and and if some are a little short that would make your taper crimp even more In-effective.

[wgr]

i have that same mold. i have that same mold. had the same problem went back and put a heaver crimp on them problem solved

[Larry Gibson]

I have to agree completely. It definitely had me scratching my head.

What are you sizing those Lee TL230-452-TC bullets at?

Larry Gibson

[John 242]

MtGun44 mentioned chamber checking your ammo. I would like to expand on what he wrote, as I believe chamber checking will likely solve, or at least help identify what your problem is.

Pull your barrel and check all of your hand loads in your pistol's chamber.
The base of the cartridge should be at least flush with the end of the barrel hood, or a little lower. The base of the case (rim) should NOT extend past the end of the barrel hood. The loaded cartridge should drop freely into and out of the chamber. You should NOT have to nudge it to fit flush or bellow the hood. If all rounds drop in flush or slightly bellow flush, I would look somewhere else.

(Notice I said flush or bellow a bunch of times. If the round drops in and out, but protrudes beyond the hood too far, your gun will not go fully into battery.)

I learned the hard way to check my competition ammo, after having similar problems at a match. In my pistol, my rounds were hanging up just enough to force the gun out of battery, forcing me to smack the rear of the slide. The point is, by chamber checking, you will know if you ammo fits your specific chamber.

Often, when chamber checking by hand, you can see marks on the case where it is dragging. In my situation, it was obvious that case's mouth was the problem.
While you're chamber checking, also make sure there are no bulges,above the case web, dents, and that the rim is not dinged, deformed, or otherwise buggered.

Another option is a case gauge, but I've found the Wilson .45 ACP gauge to be exceptionally tight, when compared to the supposedly "match grade" chamber on my barrel.

Here, this is what I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdJLNox1hpk

A picture is worth a thousand words, maybe a video is worth a thousand pictures?

[saphelps]

All righty. After the input and a very good PM I received, I reviewed the steps I took to create the rounds. Re-doing the steps, definitely something I did inconsistently or totally wrong. A lot of lessons learned. I'll get to that in a second. Note, for those concerned I did not work my way up, I created 5 rounds at each powder load until I got to 6.4. 5 is definitely not a good number to test new loads with.

The photo below captures what is happening and what I need to correct (note: I did not run the first batch through the sizer so I'm betting I've got diameters going all over the place ... all of my casts waiting for new loads have been run through the sizer since then so these are the only oddballs)

(1) Shows the final dummy round I was using to set up my press dies. After I got this, I began to manufacture my first batch. I neglected, like a complete buffoon, to create the dummy round with a bullet coated with LLA, so there might be a diameter issue that came into play when loading.

Also, I did tighten the crimp all the way to .468 which did nothing to affect the headspacing (even put one through the FCD with no improvement)

(2) Shows the headspacing of the lubed live round. It's a hair off which I apparently didn't catch when checking lengths. These did seem to fire ok but a fix is in order before I launch any more off. Out of what rounds I still had unfired, number came out to 19/23 that looked like this.

(3) Shows one of four rounds I pulled out of my box that is way off and explains why I'm having such issues. My bet is those that refused to close consisted of these as well.

92376

Lessons Learned:

1. Don't trust dummy round and leave it at that. Check, check, and re-check.

2. Create the dummy round just like the real thing (minus primer and powder, of course)

3. Size the bullet, even if the mold says sizing not necessary in most cases (Again, I have all bullets now run through the .452 sizer so that lesson has been implemented).

4. Use the barrel to fit check everything once made.

I'll be making a fresh batch today once errands are completed and compare results. I'm no longer comfortable with these, even if there are only 23 left.

Oh, and keep cell phone on me when at range and photo every little thing that is out of place.

Hopefully I can get some range time in this weekend and update you all on the progress and show the fruit of your labor.

[Char-Gar]

It looks like you have shortened your learning curve quite a bit. The use of your barrel as a seating depth gage is the way to do it.

Cast bullets in the 45 ACP used in 1911 pistols should be .451 to .453 in size, with .452 being the one I would choose. I have yet to encounter a 1911 pistol that did not go well with .452 bullets.

Learn how to set that taper crimp die, here is the easy way;

1. Put a factory or USGI round in your press's shell holder and run it to the top of the stroke.
2. Screw you taper crimp die down on the round as hard as you can using just your hand only, no tools.
3. Set the lock ring on your die and you are done.

You will now have a taper crimp of .469 - .470.

The 45 ACP round is very easy to reload with cast bullets for reliability in the 1911 pistol. Accuracy is another matter with that depending on bullet design, bullet temper, bullet lube, powder type and charge weight.

I do not use tumble lube, your bullet design or your powder, so I can make no comments on those.

I like a 200 to 230 grain bullet, sized .452, cast from ACWW and loaded over 4.5 - 4.8 grains of Bulleye. I have used this formula for many years with many rounds with complete satisfaction and I don't feel the need to look for something different. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[saphelps]

Pulled and went through reloading 101. Total of 50 rounds using same data. Initially had same issue after crimping (yes, I crimp and seat at same time). Got the crimp at .469 which finally gave a perfect headspace. After each completed round, performed the "thunk" test. Doing this each time identified a few that still set a hair higher in the throat and using another crimping die in a separate press to tighten crimp more didn't help. I ended up pulling out the Lee FCD (I know) keeping the .469 crimp and ran those through it and once again had perfect spacing with only one that refused to cooperate and was thus culled from the herd. Interestingly enough, these seemed to all be Winchester brass that needed this. Could really feel the rumble as they went through.

All boolits had been sized but mic'd again just to be sure before being seated. Threw a few into the recycle pot as they were out of round.

After I got the 50 done, looked over and still had primers and powder so I made a batch of 25 at 6.5 grain. I still have 25 primers so I'm sure I'll be back in the garage for a "nightcap." Maybe just cast to keep the bin full.

Back to work tomorrow, of course forecast to be the warmest day of the week. Weekend cold front coming in with 20's and 30's Sat and Sun but plan on getting to the range anyway.

Will update when I thaw out.

[Char-Gar]

What kind of loading equipment are you using that produced loaded rounds that vary in over all length? Each round should be exactly like the others, if it is not, I would like to know why.

[True.grit]

What are you sizing those Lee TL230-452-TC bullets at?

Larry Gibson
I had the same problem with the same boolit. I thought that I could eliminate 1 step in the process by not sizing. I did a 100rd test in the late summer and did not have any issues. I went later in the year and had the same problem with it not completely going into battery. I determined that sizing is very important for constancy. My load is 4 gr red dot col 1.190. I do not worry about the taper crimp dia. Try not to over think it. Have fun shooting.

[saphelps]

What kind of loading equipment are you using that produced loaded rounds that vary in over all length? Each round should be exactly like the others, if it is not, I would like to know why.

Overall length is consistent. In the photos and original post I was using bullets dropped from the mold without sizing but last setup I did run through Lee sizer. Apparently was enough to cause bulging issues and resulted in the case neck being just wide enough in spots to wedge the case. Today's loads plunked right in but only after I had tightened the crimp and even then some needed to go through the Lee FCD before. I'm thinking due to not sizing originally, the crimp was negated by the bulging.

Lyman T-Mag on the first batch. Lee Turret on today's.

[w5pv]

My solution to the same type of problem was going to a little stronger spring.I forget the exact spring but it seems I went from a 14 pound spring to a sixteen pound spring haven't had the problem since.Mine would not go completely into battery after shooting a magazine or two in it.

[MtGun44]

To reiterate my original comment. 80% or more of the FTC that I have seen in .45 ACP
are due to no or inadequate taper crimp. Still, there is a steady fear of "too much taper crimp".

You will find NO problem with a .465 taper crimp and a LOT of problems with a .473 taper crimp,
so why is everyone fearful of going "too tight"???

Bill

[roysha]

I had this exact same problem with my P-220 using the same bullet. In my case I found that the barrel had virtually no leade/throat. I was seating the bullet out just enough so the case mouth could catch a 1/32" of the main diameter just behind the ogive to ensure the bullet would not shift back into the case. That was enough to cause stopages 90% of the time. Without a magnifying glass it was difficult to see the rifling marks so it took me a bit to figure it out since it was not "smack me in the face" obvious. Got a throating reamer, opened the leade/throat until I could drop in a loaded round and it would fall out from it's own weight when the barrel was tipped up. Problem solved. I was sizing the bullet to .452".

[243winxb]

bullets dropped from the mold without sizing You dont need to size, just crank down that taper crimper more. :kidding:

[freebullet]

If you crimp too tight it can down size cast boolits, it can lead the barrel in short order if that happens. You should be checking some rounds for bullet set back also. Just push the bullet end against your bench, if you can make it shorter with hand pressure then feeding in the gun could do it aswell. You can pull the boolit from the dummy round and measure it to make sure the crimp doesn't size it down. I've always used a standard seat/crimp and it works fine.

Measured overall length can vary due to the length of bullet varying. Even Matchking's vary in length. They generally measured from the ogive when extreme precision is required.

I use a simple test before ever making a dummy round to find out about where that bullet and that barrel will want to work together. Take a bullet coated or lubed place it in the barrel and make sure it centers (use a toothpick to adjust). Now put a dowell in the end of the barrel on the bullet and mark it at the end of the barrel. Now remove the bullet insert the dowell all the way to the breach face, mark it at the end of the barrel. Now measure between the tops of the marks, with the end that went in the barrel being the top. This tells you how long to make your first dummy round.

Lee 1r boolits tend to run best 0.010-0.015 shorter IME. Lee 2r boolits can be run up to 0.020" further with excellent accuracy/feeding.

If you need to load them shorter you can reduce the powder charge. 3/10tenths of a grain per 0.010" shorter than book data IME for non magnum pistols only. Use caution as that is not correct for every situation and some powders (especially for magnums) can not be reduced safely.

[saphelps]

Couldn't take it. Took half a day and gave these a go. Not a single issue! I really need to get something to set my hand on when trying to test though. Hard, tiny wooden stand at the range just doesn't cut it and all the sandbags were spoken for. I did pick up some range scrap, though [smilie=1:

Couple of shots of the 6.4 testing and a quick check of the 6.5 powder load. I'm not quite sure I'm liking 6.5. I would say overall, this was a successful excursion and you guys rock! Now to work on my AIM!
=====
EDIT: Removed photos. I wrote down the incorrect OAL on the targets and I don't want anyone to look at it and use the info for one of their loads. It would have been disastrous (wrote 1.070 but should have been 1.170)
=====

[MtGun44]

Sorry, freebullet, I don't buy it. Never saw it and have run .465 or tighter for decades. I call
hogwash. Have you ever actually had this happen or just 'heard about it'?

My normal TC has been to bury half the thickness of the brass at the mouth into
the boolit. Never caused a problem. I never had measured it until I came here and
folks asked about it. Normally folks kinda freak out if I say TC to .465 or tighter, so
I recommend .468 or so, seems to get less resistance from those fearful of "too much
TC", which I think is a mythical condition.

Saphelps - great that it is functioning. Now you have unlimited quantities of practice
ammo!

Bill

[saphelps]

You guys were a great help. You don't know how mych I appreciate it!

~Shaun

[freebullet]

Mg44
Yes earlier this summer i over crimped some 357 rounds and it reduced the diameter of the boolit. It turned the barrel in to a smoothbore in 6 shots. That was a normal seat/crimp die not taper though. I didn't know why it leaded up so quick until I pulled the boolit from the dummy round and measured it.

Glad you got it fixed up. Throw a small sand bag on the rest, it might help.

[MtGun44]

OK, good example, freebullet. Let me clarify.

My point is on .45 ACP ONLY not as a general case. Yes, it is possible to overcrimp,
especially with a roll crimp in a revolver. IME, not going to overcrimp with a
TC die in a semiauto unless you push the entire case wall into the boolit, like a roll crimp.
The bare .45 case is .473 diam, so "taper crimping" to .470 is what is usually recommended,
and isn't really very much of a crimp at all. I crimp to .465 or even tighter, which is
only .0025" of the brass pushed into the boolit. With TC, and air cooled wwts or
commercial (harder) boolits, I have never had any diameter reduction. My 'half
thickness' would be about .463 diam - since the boolit is .452 and the case is .473 at
the mouth, the wall thickness is about .010, so pushing in .005 on each side will
get you to .463 and this or .465 works well, IME. Still plenty of case mouth to
headspace on.

I have heard of cases that haven't been expanded enough sizing down boolits in
9mm but never in .45 ACP.

Basically, my point about not needing to worry about overcrimping only applied to
TC for .45 ACP. Roll crimping is a whole 'nother thing.

Bill