Lee modern target design minie and cabelas/investarms hawken

[chickenmcnasty]

Hey all, I saw cabelas has a mold for a Lee Modern Target Design Minie. Any experiences with this in the 1:48'' twist hawken? Also, I have taken to using plastic sabots and .45 cal xtp rounds, but is there a comparable mold to do these myself?
I guess what it all comes down to is that I'm wanting to get into casting but I need to find a good local source for lead and then make sure I am going with the appropriate molds. I plan on getting a .490 mold, but would also like to look into some bullet molds as well. Does anyone have any advice in terms of these bullets/molds for use in this particular rifle? Any other starting equipment suggestions would also be great. Thank you

[fouronesix]

Well, a Minié is loaded and treated differently than a solid base conical. The Lee "Modern" Minié is a hollow base design that reminds me of a tumble lube wadcutter. A friend shoots one in a 48" twist and likes it- but then he's not much of a student of the Minié design or other conicals for that matter.

In 50 cal 48" twist, I have such good luck with patched roundballs and the original T/C design Maxi so no 1st hand experience nor interest in the Lee "Modern".

[CastingFool]

I have one of those in. 50 cal, but I haven't shot any of them, so I can't comment on its performance. Sorry I can't help you out.

[chickenmcnasty]

is there traditional minie molds available? do they run well out of a 1:48'' twist?
how are they treated differently in terms of loading?

[mooman76]

The Lee REALs usually work good in the 1/48 twist. I tried the Lee Minnies but they only shoot ok for me. Nothing to brag about.

[chickenmcnasty]

do those bullets need to be sized for the particular bore size? I don't have a clue how big the investarms hawken is

[mooman76]

You can size them and some have. I found they come out a little large for a minie. Mine came out .501/2 and would not slide down the bore easy, especially after the first fouling shot. In away it's a good thing because you don't want a minie that is so loose that it can slide of the powder after loading because then you have an air gap.

[fouronesix]

is there traditional minie molds available? do they run well out of a 1:48'' twist?
how are they treated differently in terms of loading?

The Minié is designed to load easily so should be anywhere from bore size to about .001" under bore size to work best. Occasionally, Miniés .002" smaller or more than bore size will shoot very well. Miniés are usually loaded with moderate- not heavy- loads of blackpowder. The modest BP charges are enough to expand the skirt into the grooves but no so great as to blow out the skirt from pressure. Yes, there are more traditional Minié molds out there than the Lee "Modern". And yes, they shoot very well in 50 cal 48" twist. But you can't push them too hard. Lee makes a good looking "Improved" Minié mold but I never got good accuracy out of the Lee "Improved" design???


Most solid base conicals should be right at bore diameter and usually do better with heavier than moderate charges of blackpowder. The T/C Maxi for example actually has two different diameters of drive bands. The base and mid band should be bore size and the top band is usually about .002-.004" larger than bore. Thumb pressure to load to top band then short starter to start the top band. The Lee REAL has narrow tapered bands that slightly engrave on loading and require a short starter-- ergo the name- Rifling Engraved At Loading

[chickenmcnasty]

The Minié is designed to load easily so should be anywhere from bore size to about .001" under bore size to work best. Occasionally, Miniés .002" smaller or more than bore size will shoot very well. Miniés are usually loaded with moderate- not heavy- loads of blackpowder. The modest BP charges are enough to expand the skirt into the grooves but no so great as to blow out the skirt from pressure. Yes, there are more traditional Minié molds out there than the Lee "Modern". And yes, they shoot very well in 50 cal 48" twist. But you can't push them too hard. Lee makes a good looking "Improved" Minié mold but I never got good accuracy out of the Lee "Improved" design???


Most solid base conicals should be right at bore diameter and usually do better with heavier than moderate charges of blackpowder. The T/C Maxi for example actually has two different diameters of drive bands. The base and mid band should be bore size and the top band is usually about .002-.004" larger than bore. Thumb pressure to load to top band then short starter to start the top band. The Lee REAL has narrow tapered bands that slightly engrave on loading and require a short starter-- ergo the name- Rifling Engraved At Loading

Awesome info, thank you.

Does anyone know about the sizing with these in terms of the investarm hawken?
Also, is pure lead still easily acquired locally from scrap yards? I think a good source for lead will make or break this endeavor

[RMc]

I use the Lee Improved Minie design as a follow up load. If I need to pull a quick second shot the Improved Minie cast with 2% tin added is called into action. The 360 grain hollow base round is lubed with allox then rolled in mica. Loaded from a double ended speed loader over 100 grains of Goex FFg it will hold a 5 inch + three shot group at 100 yards - not the tightest but quick, (no short starter), to use as a follow up load. This from a TC New Englander with Patridge sights of the type formerly used on the TC Renegade series.

[fouronesix]

Awesome info, thank you.

Does anyone know about the sizing with these in terms of the investarm hawken?
Also, is pure lead still easily acquired locally from scrap yards? I think a good source for lead will make or break this endeavor

Lead is where you find it. For the Miniés and conicals it's best to use pure or near pure soft lead. The last bulk I found at a scrap yard was cable sheathing. Won't hurt to visit your local scrap/metal recycling yards to see what they have and keep checking or even leave a message with them about your desire for soft lead (or any lead of that matter). Old roof flashing is another source for soft lead.

For your particular rifle it's best to slug the bore. Use a soft, over-sized hunk of lead. A 54 cal roundball in a 50 cal bore works well. Lube bore then drive it down the bore a ways with a brass rod or punch then retrieve with a screw type ball puller. Here's a pic of the process.

[C. Latch]

What are the chances that a lee minie would work with heavier charges if it was cast from an alloy with a bit of tin instead of pure lead?

[mooman76]

Some people have been known to remove the base plug on the minie mould on Lees and turn them down on a drill or lath. That would make the skirt thicker for heavier charges.

[chickenmcnasty]

Lead is where you find it. For the Miniés and conicals it's best to use pure or near pure soft lead. The last bulk I found at a scrap yard was cable sheathing. Won't hurt to visit your local scrap/metal recycling yards to see what they have and keep checking or even leave a message with them about your desire for soft lead (or any lead of that matter). Old roof flashing is another source for soft lead.

For your particular rifle it's best to slug the bore. Use a soft, over-sized hunk of lead. A 54 cal roundball in a 50 cal bore works well. Lube bore then drive it down the bore a ways with a brass rod or punch then retrieve with a screw type ball puller. Here's a pic of the process.

Is this done to measure the bore diameter?

[True.grit]

Hey all, I saw cabelas has a mold for a Lee Modern Target Design Minie. Any experiences with this in the 1:48'' twist hawken? Also, I have taken to using plastic sabots and .45 cal xtp rounds, but is there a comparable mold to do these myself?
I guess what it all comes down to is that I'm wanting to get into casting but I need to find a good local source for lead and then make sure I am going with the appropriate molds. I plan on getting a .490 mold, but would also like to look into some bullet molds as well. Does anyone have any advice in terms of these bullets/molds for use in this particular rifle? Any other starting equipment suggestions would also be great. Thank you

Part of the fun is finding out what shoots good . It has been my experience that there is no "magic boolit" when it comes to shooting front stuffers. I shoot once a week and found that my T/C renegade loves patched round ball with 70 gr black. I also shoot the lee improved modern minni and have had good luck at 50 to 70 yrds. It seams to like 50 gr black. I have not had good luck at 100 with the minni but the patch round ball is a real tack driver. I have tried the REALs and have not had any luck at all. If you are just getting into casting the best place to start is with a front stuffer. I use roof flashing lead and it can be gotten easy at any scape yard. Happy shooting

[fouronesix]

Is this done to measure the bore diameter?

IF your bore has even number of grooves, it's very straight forward. Measure across the widest part of the slug (groove to groove) that yields the groove diameter. The trickier part is measuring land to land-- that yields the bore diameter. You can carefully use knife edge calipers 180' from each other for the land to land measurement. These measurements may be useful and can be always be used as a reference for any future loading or ordering of molds or cast projectiles.

Most Miniés and conical are loaded as cast so don't require sizing. And probably best not to size a Maxiball anyway given it has two different diameters. By knowing your bore diameter you can make the best judgement for which diameter of Minié to use. The two measurements (bore and groove) can also be useful in judging which roundball and patch thickness to use. For the 50 caliber, there aren't many choices for different sizes... but if you shoot and tinker a lot with different projectiles, the information will always be available and may prove useful.

[chickenmcnasty]

I suppose I need to find someone to try some of the different types of these before buying the mold. With all of the LEE real, minie and other molds it can make your head spin in a hurry!

[chickenmcnasty]

is the barrel twist a big factor in terms of minie's?

[fouronesix]

is the barrel twist a big factor in terms of minie's?

There is a lot of this information in previous threads here on the forum. Finding it is a different story as are the opinions expressed by various posters.

For example and through my own experience, twist rate is fairly forgiving in the 50 cal, less so in the 40 & 45 cals, more forgiving in the 54 and 58 calibers and very forgiving in the 69 and larger calibers. In the 50 cal, 48" twist is a very good compromise for a variety of projectile types.

The Minié is primarily stabilized aerodynamically with the center of gravity forward of the center of pressure.... like a dart.... therefore requires only enough twist (rotation) to keep the nose pointed forward as it leaves the muzzle and travels through the air. Conversely, the basic solid base conical is stabilized gyroscopically by the angular momentum of the rotation where the center of gravity may not be forward of the center of pressure. My theory is that the basic solid base T/C Maxiball conical is about as long a 50 cal projectile that can be stabilized by 48" twist rotation. The Greenhill formula applies primarily with solid base conical projectiles types.

The roundball, because of it's shape (aerodynamically), really requires very little rotation as it is stable and predictable pretty much no matter which orientation it flies in as long as the rotation is consistent.

One thing to consider is that there is a physical "barrier" as to amount of twist for any given projectile. As the powder charge ignites and kicks the bullet down the bore from a dead stop, if the "balance" among acceleration and powder charge, mass, material hardness, size, obturation, rifling depth, rifling type, etc isn't just right, the bullet can strip along the first inch or several of the rifling thus destroying any chance of accuracy.

Other things being equal and for best results, the solid base conical usually requires a larger powder charge and the Minié requires a lesser powder charge.

There is a whole lot of both art and science involved here. Just have to go out and shoot, do some trial and error, take notes, change one thing at a time and see (learn) what happens.... safely :)

[GARD72977]

Some people have been known to remove the base plug on the minie mould on Lees and turn them down on a drill or lath. That would make the skirt thicker for heavier charges.

I can see this working very well. If the chuck is a couple of thousandths out the bullet will be very out of balance in the base where it is most sensitive.

[fouronesix]

I can see this working very well. If the chuck is a couple of thousandths out the bullet will be very out of balance in the base where it is most sensitive.

It has been tried in various ways and for a long time. If the combination of load, rifling profile, twist will stabilize the modified slug and the base pin is on axis after the modification it will work fine. But, if the bore's twist is a slow Minié or roundball twist, then chances are slim at best for stabilization after changing the basic parameters of the original bullet's design. In other words, it probably will work if the rifle will accurately shoot a comparable (length, mass, profile) solid base conical.

The OP's 50 cal 48" twist rifle will likely shoot the 50 cal T/C Maxi conical very well, so no reason to believe if a similar 50 cal Minié has been modified to thicken the skirt, that it wouldn't shoot well also in that particular rifle.

[Southron]

1. Determine the size of your bore. Plan on using a Minie Ball no smaller than 2 Thou or an Inch under bore diameter.

2. Cast your Minie Balls out of Pure Lead. Hard Lead just won't work.

3. Casting is no big deal as the molten lead is only a little bit above 625 Degrees F. Just always cast in a well ventilated area, keep ALL WATER away from molten lead (it can cause the pot to explode.) Wash your hands before you smoke or drink after handling lead or casting.

3. When casting just a TINY amount of TIN will let the Minie Balls fill out the mould much better. I have a 40 pound pot and will throw in a 15 inch long piece of 50/50 lead/tim solder wire into the pot. The bullets always come out brighter and fill out the mould much, much better.

4. After you cast your Minie Balls, WEIGH AND SORT THEM BY WEIGHT. You will end up with a "Bell Shaped Curve" of weights. I generally sort them into Plus/Minus 2 Grain "Lots."

5. Even IF THEY LOOK PERFECT, I THROW THE LIGHT MINIES BACK INTO THE POT. The theory being that they have hidden air pockets in the lead and won't shoot worth a heck.

6 Then using a reloading press, I size all of the Minie Balls with a custom made sizer and ram. Only by sizing can you be assured that all of your Minie Balls are of the exact same diameter.

7. I lube my Minie Balls by"Hot Dipping" them in a mixture of 60% Beeswax(by volume) and 40% Bore Butter. I set the bullet base down on a piece of aluminum foil for the lube to harden. Whatever you do, don't overheat the pan of lube or leave it unattended on the stove. If it gets to hot, it will catch fire!!!

8. Never, never use any Paraffin in the lube mix. Paraffin residue mixed with black powder fouling in your barrel creates a mess.

9. Load up 5 cartridges each with 44 Grains of Black Powder, 46 Grains, 48 Grains, etc all the way up to 70 Grains. Put your rifle on the bench and hang a target at 100 yards. Then find out what particular load gives you the smallest 5 shot group. After you have found your smallest group, then go and adjust your sights to "Zero" your rifle.

10. You can always get a cheap Lee lead pot. The problem is that you need a larger lead pot so you won't have to chop up your lead to get it to fit into the pot. The 25 pound Lyman bottom pour pot is nice.

11. Brass is the best material for moulds, that is followed by meehanite iron/steel. The poorest metal to make moulds out of is aluminium.You have to "baby" the Lee aluminum moulds, but with a little practice they can produce good bullets.

If you make up cartridges for your rifle, you should be able to load and fire three or more rounds per minute.

GOOD LUCK