American Pioneer Powder

[fenris]

Don’t know how many of you have tried American Pioneer Powder. But here is my 2 cents. Tried it out today in my 45/70 trapdoor carbine.
Load Data
Case RP.
Primer CCI lg. Pistol
Powder APP FFg. 55 gr. Volume measure
Bullet 457/405 CJ. FN. FB.
Over P. W. 3/16
No lube
Distance to target. 25 Steps. Apx. 20 yds.
Shooting for group only at a 6 in. circle off hand shots--- all 6 stayed within a 3 in. circle.

At a later date will be zeroing at 100 yds. On 6 in. black bull will up load a pic.

I have to say it didn’t do badly at all, no flyer's from 1st to last shot and clean up was a breeze. Swabbed the barrel with 3 wet patches and dried it with two patches, the 2nd dry patch came out almost as white as it started. Swabbed barrel with gun oil and it looked as if came of the show room floor. So if you have never tried it give it a try, I would recommend it. Just in case anyone is wondering--- No I do not work for the company nor do I own any of their stock :coffee:. Don’t know how it would do for long range comp shooting someone else will have to do the testing on that end. 100 yds is my max shooting distance without a scope, a very large magnification scope.[smilie=1:

[dale2242]

Trapdoor carbine with a showroom barrel? How does a guy get so lucky? I have a Model 1884 Trapdoor rifle. It has an OK bore. Not showroom. I shoot 4198 and Lyman 457124 HP. Tell us more about American Pioneer Powder. Sounds interesting.

[Blackhawk Convertable]

American Pioneer Powder is basically a smokeless powder that smokes. It is a black powder sub that doesn't have all the corrosive stuff associated with BP.

[fenris]

Dale, how does one obtain a trapdoor with a showroom barrel that’s easy. My trapdoor is a replica H/R :smile:. I only wish I had an original but my wallet would not stand the shock nor would my head from the frying pan the wife would use on it-- lol. Sorry about that sometimes I suffer from CRS (can’t remember Sh&%) forgot to mention that little tidbit.

About the powder, it is used same as Black, FFg. or that nasty word (PYRO---R/S) volume-to-volume measures. I used the granular form but it also comes in pellets but I have never had much luck with any type pellets. It is white in color coarse and smokes like black. It leaves a very thin white powdery residue in barrel and in the casings. The 55 gr. Charge had no more recoil than black or (P) and there is no foul odor during firing or while cleaning the weapon.
I will be leaving the casings for the next 3 or 4 months to test the corrosiveness for myself. I’m kind of one of those got to see it for myself type. When I called the Co. the Rep. Stated it would not harm the barrel at all unlike other type products, I cleaned the barrel anyway just until I am satisfied for myself. You know the saying a once of prevention. I also have a short piece of ¾ inch steel pipe that I’m going to pour some in and fire it off to lay up for that same amount of time to test. The pipe is slick as a new baby’s butt inside and out so that should tell me something after it sits a few months. Will be taking pics of before and after to upload for everyone to see. Can’t really tell you all a lot more about it until I have ran it through the testing. One other thing on the canister is stated,

“ American Pioneer tm and AP tm are trademarks of American Pioneer Powder Inc.
Clean Shot tm is a trademark of clean shot technologies, Inc.”

They have a web site that you can go to and I will place it here. Don’t know a lot more other than when talking to the Co. Rep. He talked it up and stated if I wasn’t pleased in any way with the product he would buy it back paying all expenses.
www.americanpioneerpowder.com

[VTDW]

fenris,

+1 on American Pioneer powder. I love the stuff. It is accurate and really does clean up real nice. No crud ring either.

Dave

[fenris]

Here is a pic of the group from my trapdoor. 25yds. off hand shooting all are within a 3 in. circle. Not bad for a old fart that has 4 Pr. glasses and can't see with any of them Just wish i could stop pulling to the left and down. I have done this all my life with iron sights. guess i'm to old to stop now. Now have to up the sight and move target to 50 yds. and fire a couple rounds readjust than move on out.
The powder done well 55 gr. under a 457/405 copper jacket FN.

[standles]

I will fall o nthe other side of the fence. I tried 3 pounds of the powder trying to find a load combo in my 50 caliber lyman muzzleloader. Never did find a load better than BP FFG one I was using.

I will say it is extremely clean and meters well. It resembles cat litter.


Steven

[44man]

I have heard bad stuff about it. Low velocities and poor accuracy. I never tried it so I won't swear to it.

[Rick Hodges]

Tried it in a 54cal ML with full caliber projectiles and a 50 cal Omega with sabots--very large velocity swings and poor accuracy compared to Goex BP and 777.

[mooman76]

I wasn't so impressed either but on the other hand it didn't do bad. BP is getting very hard to find in some areas so it would be a sustitute. I was told it would even work in flintlocks and that is something the other subs won't do without a duplex load of BP.
I also heard (at least I blieve it was this powder) of poor results when using the sticks of this brand but I believe that is mainly due to the odd pyramid shaped sticks that have chunks break off when forceing down the barrel.
The best I could get it to do was 2" at 50y. Not that bad, about the same as BP from my 73 original Trap door. Maybe that is as good as I will be able to get out of the old gal.

[Jon K]

I tried it and all the subs. Goex Pinnacle in my opinion is the best of the bunch.
I gave them a thorough wring out and none can beat BP for accuracy. I spent countless hours at the range chronographing and group testing, trying to make a sulphur free sub work, because I'm allergic to the sulphur.

For shorter distances the subs do OK, but fall apart as you get farther out. Again this is my opinion, and my testing was done in 3 different cartridge calibers.

Jon

[fenris]

Hi all been a while thought I would bring everyone up to date. Been using the APP. and having good results. Started by volume wt. 55 gr. placed in on the scales came to 47.7gr worked up to 48.8 scale wt. by volume was still at 55gr. figur that is why the vol swings that have been noted. But have real good shot groops at 50yds they stay within a 1 1/2 to 2 in. circle. But have switched to a 458/500 R boolet. Doesn't have a lot of recoil, but sure rips the ground up behind the target about 4 to 6 feet long strip 1 to 2 inches wide.
Have also picked up a couple new guns. A 12ga. Thompson B/P single open C. and a rossie 44/40 lever going to try them out as soon as the weather here let up rain snow ice sunny and all in the same day. I figure the 44/40 will make a good cat getter :Fire: I know that is being bad but what can I say. Think I'll try the 12 on some bushytaild rats this coming season. Hope you all had a good turkey day and Merry Christmas to all. Keep safe :drinks:

[hydraulic]

You fellows talking about trapdoor carbines reminds me of the one I used to own. Back in 1978 there was a guy in a nearby town who bought and sold old guns, and one time he showed me an 1884 carbine in really nice shape---$200. Gulp!!! But I screwed up my nerve and bought it. Later, I got to talking to one of my customers in my gas station and he said he had an 1884 rifle. When I told him about the carbine he wanted to see it so I went home and got it. He took one look and says, "How much?" I says, "Not for sale!" He says, "I didn't ask you that, I asked how much?" Kind of irritated me so I says, "All right, I want $300!" He wrote me a check and I smiled to myself and thought, "now I'll go buy another $200 carbine and pocket a $100 profit." I'm still looking for another $200 carbine forty years later.

[Freightman]

Found the BP substitutes like APP, Pyro, ect need to be weighed to get a consistant reading, measured it and Pyro, five straight times apiece from my powdermeasure (volume) and there was a great varriance in weight. So I just weigh each charge before i go to the range and put them in a container and have gotten much better results.

[Ricochet]

If it's really true that this stuff will work well in a flintlock, I'm VERY interested. But I'm not holding my breath...

[fenris]

Hydraulic - That was a real loss but you can't have mine LOL. Hope you find you another one someday but think you just might have to pay a little more than 200.

Freightman - Had to do the same thing with APP measured 6 from a volume measurer and got 6 different measures. so went with the lowest amount. Than weighed the charge and worked up by Wt. not Volume. ended with the 48.8 Grs. seams to do well even with the 500s they hit about 3 inches lower at 50 yds than the 405s but can adj. for that. Did try a 54gr. by weight came to 60 gr. by volume had a lot more stomp with the 500s but about the same with 405s and did raise the 5ers up the 3 inches

Ricochet - Have no idea about using it in a flintlock, but do have a 50 cal flint just an old traditions but sure fun to shoot. I will give APP a try in the next couple weeks. Will let you know what happens good or bad.

[Ricochet]

If it does work in the flinter, I'll get some for sure.

[Lloyd Smale]

pinicle is what ive settled on too. It has given me the best accuracy of all the substitutes.
I tried it and all the subs. Goex Pinnacle in my opinion is the best of the bunch.
I gave them a thorough wring out and none can beat BP for accuracy. I spent countless hours at the range chronographing and group testing, trying to make a sulphur free sub work, because I'm allergic to the sulphur.

For shorter distances the subs do OK, but fall apart as you get farther out. Again this is my opinion, and my testing was done in 3 different cartridge calibers.

Jon

[fenris]

Ricochet I tried some of the APP in my flint today Just in the flash pan to see how well it flashed. Seamed to burn a little slower than Black. I used about 3 to 6 Gran's of crushed FFg. had a lot of smoke and spark well. will give it a real test tomorrow sometime. Was going to today but didn't have any 50 cal. ball to be found around here. If nothing else I will patch a 45 cal. real heave and see what happens. I'm not a flintlock user usually use cap locks or my 45/70 rifles.:Fire:
But will have to say it is doing well in the trapdoor carbine. Been playing with the charge and have worked it up to 48.8 by Wt. scale so far. going to try about 50gr. on the scales. Haven't decided if i will use the 405s or 500s may test both. But will write again sometime tomorrow and let you know my findings:drinks:

[Ricochet]

Thanks! :-D

[03lover]

I have used the American Pioneer Powder for several years in my two Ruger 45 Cal. Cap & Ball Revolvers. One is a blued model and the other is stainless.

I find the accuracy to be very good but by the time I am firing the seventh cylinder full, the accuracy is falling off. If I dry brush the chambers to get rid of the flacky residue and run a couple of wet patches down the bore followed by a couple of dry ones the accuracy comes back.

I have left both of these revolvers just as they came off the shooting range, which is pretty dirty, for as long as three months without any sign of corrosion. I did inspect them often and now I know this will cause no harm.

A point of interest though, the powder residue from firing American Pioneer Powder does seem to take on an ugly look after an extended period of time, but yet causes no harm to either the stainless or blued revolver.

I did try American Pioneer Powder in my 45 Colt cartridge gun and my 44 Magnum. It shot OK and made plenty of smoke, but was not as accurate as my regular smokeless powder loads. This powder really dirtys up the brass and the brass is very hard to get clean.

[Dale53]

It was mentioned on here that genuine Black Powder is getting harder to find. You can order it online or mail order at really decent prices. Of course, you have to get 25 lbs at a time but they will MIX and MATCH different granulations. If 25 lbs is daunting, you can get a buddy or two to split it with you. You CAN order smaller lots but the price goes way up due to the HazMat fee.

Goex is a real bargain these days compared to Swiss but I do like my Swiss...

http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/catalog.php

Gordon Wilson Jenks & Company
349 East Mountain Road
Westfield, MA 01085
800-835-7933, 413-562-4980,
Fax: 413-562-4980Gordon Wilson Jenks & Company


Dale53

[Ricochet]

GOEX I'm familiar with. The old DuPont BP, it's all I've ever used since the early '70s (other than Pyrodex recently) and it's always worked great.

Wonder what the cheapo KIK and Skirmish powders are like?

[fenris]

I agree with the fact that brass is a little bit of a chore to clean. The way to get accuracy from a cartridge round is to weigh the charge so each is exact. Yes I also have found that after about 15 or so rounds fired from my trapdoor carbine that I have to bore brush and run a couple wet patches and good to go again. The soft lead cast bullets I been using have a tendency to leave a little behind. Their web site APP.COM has a page for suggested loads both volume and by weight

Black powder is becoming hard to get mostly because of the danger involved. Biggest problem here in Ky. is you are required to keep it in a locked safe and the safe has to be able to with stand the possible explosive force in the event of a fire. The APP is real good on the fact of not eating up a rifle or pistol that is a big +++ for me. Have what was a 1200.00 rifle. The barrel has been pitted from shooting Pyro and triple 7 even though the weapon was scrubbed down and oiled plugged for storage while I moved into my new home a little over a year a go. Pyro and 777 are nasty words to me :twisted: and I’ll never use either of them again. Would rather use Black period

On the matter of use in flintlocks I gave it the best test , the other day that I knew how to and the only problem I was having was in the flash pan. Doesn’t seam to be enough sparks at times. But keep in mind that I do not use a flinter. Had to use about half pan full or more of it (finely ) crushed to get send off. Also after the third try I cleared the flash hole and on the fourth try it fired. Fifth try cleaned the flash hole and when filling the pan flipped a little up into the touch off hole fired with no problem. So if any one else has a flint and uses it more than I do might test it out. Like I said I’m not a flintlock man