7.62x51 NATO Ammo in a 700 .308 Win Rifle?

[Lefthandshooter]

Got a Remington 700 ADL Varmint rifle for Christmas, and was wondering if I can shoot 7.62x51NATOammo in it? Most likely will be factory loads, not mil-surp. Why or why not?

Thanks!

[300savage]

not saying you should, just saying i would.
it would turn your hair white knowing what i have subjected remington 700's too..
and they have taken it all in stride, nato ammo scares me not in the slightest.

[Corvus]

The .30 caliber is reversed when it comes to pressure compared to .22 caliber if I remember right. Commercial .308 is hotter than 7.62 x 51 , commercial .223 is cooler than 5.56 x 45.

[CastingFool]

You shouldn't have any problems shooting 7.62X51 in your Rem 700.

[country gent]

I would watch the first few rounds very close for sticky bolt lift flattened primers and other sighns of high pressures. The nato chamber has a diffrent throat leade than most factory chambers. I seen a couple guys at the club with a new browning blr ( lever action) in 308 shooting it with pourtugese ball ammo ( surpluss 7.62X51 ) this ammo was available in te 80s for around 119.00 per 1000 rds. Berdan primed brass cases. the fourth or fifth round locked the action up when fired. The previous cases all showed flattened primers and a pressure ring around the case head. The weaker extraction ejection of the lever action didnt help. But be safe and watch the fired cases and bolt lift.

[GabbyM]

country gent:
That Portuguese ammo would of had to been out of spec. If 7.62x51 ammo meets NATO spec it will be well within limits of SAMI chambered riffles. I'd stab a guess that ammo was a government contract reject. That was dumped onto the junk market. Think about it. If it stuck a bolt on a bolt action rifle. Just imagine what it would of done to an M14.

[Larry Gibson]

My oh my...........

Folks, the Marine's first M40 sniper rifles back in the '60s were nothing more than plain jane M700vs with standard .308W chambers. The current marine M40s also have the tighter spec .308W match chambers as do all the Army's M24s (M700s). They shoot both 7.72 NATO ammunition and .308W match ammunition and some shoot commercial .308W ammunition for other purposes than "match" shooting.

The M700 is chambered in every magnum cartridge with psi's well above either the 7.62 NATO or the .308W so why should either of those cartridges pose a "problem" in a M700? Think about it. Yeah, yeah I know all about the internet BS concerning "headspace" differences, "chamber spec" differences and supposed psi differences. Truth is the cartridges are basically the same, the psi's are basically the same (please don't come back with the usual PSI and CUP apples to oranges comparison) and the M700 is going to just yawn when either is fired in it.

Besides having shot thousands of 7.62 NATO cartridges through numerous .308W chambered commercial and match rifles I have actually measured the psi of numerous lots of US M80, M852, M118 and M118LR, numerous equivalent "7.62 NATO" cartridges of foreign countries and many different brands and bullets weights of .308W commercial ammunition in a test rifle with minimal SAAMI chamber specifications.

Folks....there is no practical psi difference between 7.62 NATO and commercial .308W ammuntion. I can show you 7.62 NATO that hits the SAAMI MAP for the .308W and I can show you .308W commercial with less psi than numerous lots of 7.62 NATO. The average psi's over lap entirely. I can show you the MAPs (Maximum Average Pressure) of different lots of US M80 that varies by 7000+ psi between the lots. All ammunition, military or commercial, is not "loaded to max pressure" as we often see posted in these discussions as many erroneously believe is the case. Understand that ammunition, commercial and military, is loaded to specification of velocity and accuracy (+/- tolerances) while staying under the MAP for the cartridge (52K C.U.P. and 62K for peizo-transducer/strain gauge) and the MPLM and MPSM (Maximum Probable Lot Mean & Maximum Probable Sample Mean) for either cartridge. What that basically means is you will find few lots of .308W commercial ammunition or milsurp ammunition that is up to the MAP for each cartridge; the average psi's are both usually quite less than the MAP. They purposely like factor in a safety margin to cover all conditions of use.

Shoot all the 7.62 NATO and .308W commercial ammo in that M700.....

Larry Gibson

[Nickle]

I have seen a Remington 700 in 7mm Rem Mag that withstood what Remington estimated as 175,000 pounds of pressure.

It was fired using very badly made handloads, the customer first used a few grains too much "4831". Well, he bought it from bulk as 4831, but it was AL-5, which is pretty much equivalent to about Green Dot. I was working in the shop when he came it. His complaint? He couldn't get the action open, and knock the bolt handle off. They're silver soldered on.

It went to Remington.

[MattOrgan]

Great reply Larry, thanks. Want to tackle .223 v 5.56 mm chamber dimensions?

[jackmanuk]

I use 7.62 x 51 mil surp all the time , its alot cheaper than new stuff and reloads to , its alot hotter than new lapua 308 win rounds and my reloads , but for 100 yards its still keyholes itself ,

[Larry Gibson]

Great reply Larry, thanks. Want to tackle .223 v 5.56 mm chamber dimensions?

Have charged that "windmill" several times..........[smilie=b:

Larry Gibson (sometimes aka Don Quixote' :veryconfu )

[Old Dawg]

One reason some NATO ammo is 'hotter' is that it is measured with a different protocol, 'apples vs. oranges'. Would be interesting to see how some 'SAAMI' loads measure up in a NATO test and vice versa.

[NVScouter]

I always like to think of ammo usage. Some milsurp is made for small arms and some for machine guns. Also many countries hav changed their loads to meet needs. NATO has also revised it's specs as needed.

Think of 7.62 NATO as made to go bang in every chamber. Some chambers are tight others loose as can be.

[Larry Gibson]

One reason some NATO ammo is 'hotter' is that it is measured with a different protocol, 'apples vs. oranges'. Would be interesting to see how some 'SAAMI' loads measure up in a NATO test and vice versa.

Dr. Oehler has made that test (except he used the 30-06) on a C.U.P. Universal Receiver test fixture with 2 different strain gauges attached, 2 different transducers and a gas case mouth transducer (same as used by NATO). Thus he was able to get the measurements of all on the same round of ammunition. That's 6 different measurements of each rounds psi. The gas case mouth transducer consistently measured 2-3,000 psi less than the strain gauges or transducers. The C.U.P. measurements were different of course. The test covered a spectrum of loads from 44 gr of powder to 48.5 gr of the same powder under the same bullets.

Larry Gibson

[giericd]

I have a rem 700 varmint .308 26"bbl. It handles the common brands .308 just fine and also eats up the 7.62 NATO just as well with no problems. My rifle shoots the NATO stuff ok, the regular name .308 pretty good and my hand loads get awesome accuracy. So the only thing I've noticed is a difference in accuracy. Recoil is pretty much the same with NATO and name brand, i did notice when i was working up some loads even though i was way inside the min-max most increases in charges felt the same then one that was .5gr more than the previous kicked like a mule. It flet more like an '06 than a .308. no pressure signs on the case but i backed off that charge, it almost felt like the rifle torqued/twisted durring recoil, didn't like it didn't reload that charge again. I ran the largest arms room in 2ID and was signed for ($6.8 mil in weapons) to compare a M-24 to a rem-700 is like comparing a stock v6 mustang to a v8 mustang done up for 1/4 mile. The most similar parts on the two are the action other than that they are totaly different animals. They will eat all the above, we wern't allowed to run hand loads through them though it was "unauthorized" but they liked Federal Gold the best.

[Larry Gibson]

giericd

That's the difference between regular grunts and SF......we ran all sorts of handloads through our M24s.....the SOTIC sniper manual even told us to! I shot a lot of 175 MKs through numerous of them over Varget in LC M852 cases, 44.5 gr to be exact, and that was very, very accurate in all of them.

Larry Gibson

[Scharfschuetze]

Ha ha! Larry is spot on.

We often used the old White Box M118 Match or M852 cases (no crimp on the primers) for reloading for our M-21 and M-24 rifles. After the brass was worn out, we would then turn it in at the Ammo Supply Point (ASP) to get the ammo off of our hand receipt.

Here's a little story about doing just that:

Military ammo in any of the 7.62 NATO flavors has a brass colored primer and as most of you know, civilian primers generally have a silver colored primer (Remington excluded). Given that fact, it's pretty easy to tell which brass had been reloaded and which brass had not been in this situation.

One time when supervising the brass/dunnage turn in for my unit (a lengthy process with inspections of the cases for live rounds as well as weighing the turn in to determine the total number of rounds turned in) at the ASP, a young buck sergeant (E-5) was training a new ordnance soldier on the intricacies of ammo turn in. I watched him show the young private the silver colored primers on some of our "handloads" and then heard him tell the private that: "You can tell that this is special ammo only issued to Special Forces by this silver primer." I didn't say anything and just nodded my head up and down to confirm the sergeant's statement.

Just got 'a love SF!

To get back on topic, I've worn barrels out shooting 7.62 NATO through 308 calibre match rifles without any damage other than burned out throats after 4 to 5,000 rounds.

I might add to answer a previous post that US issue 7.62 NATO MG ammo is no different from 7.62 NATO ammo for rifles. The DODIC order number is different because of its packaging and the fact that it is linked, but the nomenclature of the individual rounds is the same (M-62, M-80, etc.). De-linked MG ammo is quite safe to shoot in an M-14, M-24, M-25, etc. While de-linking MG ammo is against the regs as it is considered "modifying ammo" it can be done without damage to a 7.62 NATO rifle.

[Jack Stanley]

My rifles have used several different types of NATO ammo without complaint . Some are more accurate than others but then you would expect that .

Jack

[NVScouter]

I'd shoot any US 7.62 now some old Egyptian or Arginian stuff.....depends on how much I like the rifle.

[giericd]

Wasn't a grunt, Military Police, SRT. We all know SF is a breed of their own, operate by different rules, and receive special privileges that most don't. We had a 10 year old tv in our day room SF shows up and right away they get a new huge flat screen courtesy of the base commander. We go to the chow hall they got steak and lobster, in Korea you know how hard it is to get a steak in Korea! So it is no surprise they can use hand loads or what ever ammo they request, and with the SF mission it's understandable they need the quality ammo, the mission depends on it. I got to know the SF guys real well while they were there and they were great guys, but Larry don't confuse me with a damn grunt! If you were SF then thank you for doing what most can't but you should know the MP slogan "the smarter MOS". .... He called me a grunt! ***!

[Larry Gibson]

giericd

Apologies for the mistaken impression you were a "grunt". That was not meant as a criticism as I have a high respect for grunts. You simply said you ran "the largest arms room in the 2ID" so I made the wrong assumption you were a "grunt". MP or grunt, you served our country and my thanks to you.

Larry Gibson

[nicholst55]

Many moons ago I had access to literally all of the M80 Ball and M118 Match ammo that I cared to shoot. I shot it through a Ruger M77 rifle with entirely acceptable accuracy and no pressure excursions. The only down side was that I had to delink the M80 Ball before I could shoot it.

[Jeff H]

.... He called me a grunt! ***!

Classic[smilie=l:


Best post I have read in ages.


Thank you, giericd and Larry both for your service and a much needed chuckle.

[supe47]

Let's be nice. There are a lot of us 11b's out here.

[oneokie]

Back in the '90's when there was a large variety of Mil-surp 7.62 Nato ammo available, I bought some Hertenberger ammo just to try in a 788. Second or third round locked the bolt. Got the action open and case out, measured the OAL of the fired case. Was way more than book spec. length. Fired some in a M1A, no problems, BUT, measured those cases and they were longer than book spec. also.

[GabbyM]

Back in the '90's when there was a large variety of Mil-surp 7.62 Nato ammo available, I bought some Hertenberger ammo just to try in a 788. Second or third round locked the bolt. Got the action open and case out, measured the OAL of the fired case. Was way more than book spec. length. Fired some in a M1A, no problems, BUT, measured those cases and they were longer than book spec. also.

That's just junk ammo. I have a box of Winchester M193 in the white box here. Won't even chamber up in a 5.56mm NATO chamber. As they buckled the case neck with the crimp. It's 20 or more years old from back when Winchester was importing foreign junk ammo. It's so messed up I spotted it visually and never jammed one in the chamber.

[Love Life]

It's fine to shoot.

POGs. Coming up with reasons to not be grunts since 1775.

[giericd]

LOL, I fugured Larry was an understanding guy! that OLD branch/MOS rivalry, have to love it, because it doesn't go away:drinks:
"second to none"

[Petrol & Powder]

With respect to the .308 WIN v. 7.62 x 51 and avoiding all of the "it's not quite the same" arguments, .....It's basically the same.
Now a lot of folks are going to have a cow right about now so let me say: Yes, the case wall cross section may be different and therefore the internal cases volume may be different. Yes, they may be loaded to different pressures, Yes, the primers may be crimped in the primer pocket, Yes, there may be other differences.
However the differences are not significant enough to matter in a SAAMI spec rifle. I will say that military chambers may be on the larger end of the acceptable dimensions to allow chambering of dirty or slightly out of spec cartridges to chamber BUT "on the large end of specifications" doesn't mean "out of specifications".
If you read the history of the 7.62 NATO round and the private sector adaptation of the corresponding .308 Winchester you'll get a good idea of the development of that fine cartridge.

[303carbine]

Got a Remington 700 ADL Varmint rifle for Christmas, and was wondering if I can shoot 7.62x51NATOammo in it? Most likely will be factory loads, not mil-surp. Why or why not?

Thanks!


I have shot a lot of Nato stuff out of 308 Win before. Nato chambered rifles tend to have a more generous chamber along with thicker brass. Where you may run into problems is when shooting commercial ammo in a large chambered Nato rifle is that the commercial stuff is thinner and could possibly split upon firing.
The Nato and commercial drawing are the same, it's the rifles that are different that may cause problems such as short case life.