A question for you medical guys. [Archive]

S.R.Custom

11-27-2007, 07:57 PM

For you medical guys, or anyone whose had a similar experience:

A couple of weeks ago I broke my shoulder. Did quite a number on it too, a few fractures through the glenoid region, one across the back of the scapula... It was decided that no surgery was necessary --thank God-- and that the best thing to do was keep it in a sling. Xray is here:

http://www.salmonriverdesign.com/STUFF/xray.JPG

Now, my orthopedist is a good doctor, but not a shooter, so he had no idea when I asked him how soon I can shoot the .444 Marlin and the .358 Winchester. Typically speaking, how soon would a person be able to engage his proclivity for manly rifles?

Particulars:

43 Y.O. healthy male, 220 lbs, fairly physical lifestyle, does not smoke, generally eats pretty healthy...

TIA, Mike

Single Shot

11-27-2007, 08:07 PM

I forwarded this link to my daughter the Physical Therapist.
Maybe she can ask around at the hospital.

dubber123

11-27-2007, 08:19 PM

The old man used to say: "It'll feel alot better when ya' quit doin' that". I bet that smarted a bit. Hope it heals up well for you.

MtGun44

11-27-2007, 09:30 PM

Fractured my right scapula about 30 yrs ago, shoot righty, but have never had
a bit of problem with recoil. I have shot a .45-70 Marlin GG with 405s at up to 2100 fps (NOT fun) and Mossberg 500 12 ga with slugs (also NOT fun) and never have had any pain associated with the scapula. Front of shoulder, cheekbone,
etc. bruised and sore :-D, but the scapula - not a peep.

I certainly can't guarentee any outcome, but if my experience is a guide (and it
might or might not be) you'll be fine. I hope it works out for you.

Bill

hivoltfl

11-27-2007, 09:53 PM

broken scapula can be a tough one to heal, but if its not dislocated, one of my employess broke his and it ended up under his armpit, it should heal pretty good, you might try explaining pounds of force to your doctor about recoil, he will probably understand that better. good luck and heal up quick.

Rick

S.R.Custom

11-27-2007, 10:00 PM

Thanks Bill and all for the well wishes... I'm a pretty positive type guy (stop laughing), it's already feeling better, so I'm pretty certain I'll be just fine...

But I wanna know WHEN? I'm missing my elk season! :groner:

Halfbreed

11-27-2007, 10:28 PM

Do you have a past recoil shield? something similar? I would try the 358 and see how it does, it might be a lil painful but won't damage it further. I broke my back several years ago and still shoot a 458 winnie.
Good luck.John

NVcurmudgeon

11-27-2007, 10:31 PM

Speedy recovery, SuperMag. I never broke a shoulder, but I did have some intrusive doctor take a chainsaw to my chest so he could get at my heart. I asked him when I could start shooting again. The doctor, himself a trap shooter, said that I would know when I could. He was right. When I felt able to shoot I started with a .22 rifle, and as I regained my strength, I worked my way back up to full power loads in the .35 Whelen. Just like my doctor said, and my mother said many years before him, if you listen to your body, it will tell you when.

freedom475

11-27-2007, 11:03 PM

Teach yourself to shot with the other hand.:Fire:

I injured my shoulder on a bull ride and then followed it up with a complete shoulder separation from a dirt bike crash. I opted to not have surgery. An old man that had been under the knife a lot, and as a result had bad artheritous, told me to NOT let them cut on you untill the part they want to fix is completly unuseable.

It was a few months before I even wanted to try shooting with it and found that the pain was just too much.

I just had to get back to shooting. I'm right handed and the injury was on my right shoulder so I started shooting my rifles left handed. At first it was a waste of time and ammo but before too long I began to get the hang of it. After about a year most of the pain was gone.

But by then I could shoot left handed as well as right. I still shoot my big guns like the 416Rem left handed.

Take care and let it heal. that being said take a smaller gun put it in your other hand and go kill that elk!:mrgreen:

A lot of the info I read said the biggest problem with shoulder injuries was muscle attrophy caused from lack of use.

oso

11-27-2007, 11:12 PM

I'm impressed! How much bruising was there? if it's already been a couple of weeks you may be ready for motion out of the sling. See how a .22 feels in 3-4 weeks after the injury and work up from there, in other words I wouldn't start with a manly load. Guessing 6-8 weeks for that if doing well otherwise. Take your orthopod out shooting to get a professional opinion.

creekwalker

11-27-2007, 11:15 PM

SuperMag,

Sorry buddy but you won't shoot with that shoulder this season, but you will be good to go by or before early summer. Do all of your physical therapy and follow all of the direction's about taking care of the injury. Car wrecks, general LEO line of duty injuries and deck boat white water injuries on my part. Oh yeah used to do EMT work too. Hang in there, pick up a project rifle or black powder rifle kit to keep your mind and hands busy, it'll help out your rehab too.

creekwalker

Doughty

11-28-2007, 09:55 AM

I had shoulder surgery on Sept. 24. Doc said I might be able to shoot by the first of the year. I wore a shoulder "immobilizer" for six weeks which caused me to miss antelope hunting this year. The first problem was not recoil, but how to get a rifle up into shooting position. I made this part of my PT. Within two weeks I was able to get my Marlin .45 Colt up into position, though it was a slow process. I then started out with light "cowboy" loads. I then moved up to full power hunting loads and continued work on quickly mounting the rifle. During the last two weeks I was able to take two does and a small bear. Amazingly, although I was able to shoot game by myself, I required help getting the game out, loaded, and butchered. The next phase of PT that I will concentrate on is practice moving hand to mouth with a light weight. A fork with a load of venison on it sounds about right.

Super Mag, your body will tell you how fast to go. Just like in reloading. Start low and work up.

piwo

11-28-2007, 03:52 PM

I've had 5 surgeries spread out between my two shoulders: 3 on the left, 2 on the right. Shoulder surgeries are painful to rehab, especially if they imobilized it for a few weeks. It will be locked tighter then a rusty gate and it takes dedication, hard work and sometimes a tear or two to get the full range of motion returned. Hard work is the key.

Good luck, don't push things faster then necessary. Get it done right, then enjoy your life!

testhop

11-28-2007, 05:32 PM

SUPERMAG
take it easy you have time
hunting season come and go and there will be another one soon
look out for your health s o you can be ready
there do i sound like your mother lol

Ricochet

11-28-2007, 08:16 PM

Ouch!

NVScouter

11-28-2007, 08:26 PM

so that X-ray is 2 weeks old now? Post another in 4 more weeks and lets see then.

Do not push it.

FYI this is from my wife the former Rad Tech. She also says thats a nice break :drinks:

Single Shot

11-28-2007, 08:50 PM

Sorry Buddy,

The Shootin Doc at the hospital pretty much said a quote of what CREEKWALKER posted.

He mentioned that as a fracture heals the bone is at first thin and a recoil being a quick jerk could crack the new bone trying to fill the gap. Does not have to be a heavy recoil, just the quick motion could do it.

13Echo

11-28-2007, 09:55 PM

You have a fracture through the glenoid fossa, the articulation pocket for the head of the humerus. This is where the end of the upper arm bone fits into the shoulder. I'd be very careful to let that heal and take rehab a PT very seriously to restore mobility and minimize the chance of developing arthritis or getting a frozen shoulder. If the bones don't knit together to form a smooth cup and if the articualr cartilage doesn't heal properly the shoulder action will be limited and likely painful. The fracture of the scapula is less a problem but some very powerful muscles attach to it and its head forms a part of the shoulder articulation. Healing is going to take time and I wouldn't recommend anything with more recoil than a .22 long rifle for 6 months or more and the amount of weight you should try to lift will be limited for some time. Do not rush it!

Jerry Liles

schutzen

11-29-2007, 12:54 AM

I've never broken my shoulder, but I have dislocated my shooting shoulder twice in the last 35 years. Don't rush your recovery. I was very lucky; my doctors were more concerned with getting me back 100% rather than getting me back quickly. My second injury was a car wreck. A co-worker suffered the same injury I did; but his doctor cleared him to return to work 3 weeks before my doctor cleared me. My employer, a federal agency, gave me a great deal of grief and placed me on restricted sick leave for a year because I was off so long with that injury. Now 30 years later, I have full range motion in my arm/shoulder and can shoot any caliber I chose. My co-worker, who returned to work 3 weeks earlier, can not lift his arm above shoulder level and difficulty maneuvering heavy loads with that arm. It's your call, but I am very happy I chose to take the extra time healing completely then so I can enjoy life now that I am retired.

44man

11-29-2007, 09:24 AM

Give it time to heal, don't rush it. I agree 100% to stay away from the knife unless it is really needed. Every single person that had shoulder surgery where I worked still has bad problems, those that didn't go under the knife are doing fine and working. My two daughters are two of them that were cut on. They will never be right. Shoulder injuries were the majority at United Air Lines due to the type of work with freight, mail and those ungodly heavy bags.
I had a tendon tear loose from my shouder and snap the muscle down into my bicep. I refused to go to the butcher and it healed fine by taking it easy. I still can shoot 82# bows and shoot anything.
People complain about bag damage when flying. They don't realize that they are ruining workers lives with what they carry. If you get hurt, companies get rid of you one way or another.
I hope everything gets better for you.

Bass Ackward

11-29-2007, 10:10 AM

You will most likely be fine now.

But you can develop bursitis later in life. Buddy had similar problem and believe it or not, he can shoot a rifle just fine, but not a BIG handgun unless very limited shooting. The rifle butt distributes the recoil better over a larger area and the handgun focuses vibration in the joint.

Best hopes regardless.

Single Shot

11-29-2007, 10:27 AM

Advice from the Orthopedic Surgeon at the hospital.

Tell this guy be careful of advice from people who think they're experts since they had a scapula fx too. He referred to fractures in the "glenoid area" and that's the part I'm concerned about. The glenoid fossa is basically the socket of the shoulder joint. Fractures near joints can result in early onset of arthritis/acceleration of arthritis. Doing what he's supposed to do now may mean many more years of shooting in the future. When he is ready to get out of the sling, I hope he'll get PT. If the relationship of scapula movement to humerus (upper arm) movement is altered, pushing the range of motion hard (no pain, no gain crap)would lead to impingement and other problems. Most likely he'll need the PT to mobilize the scapula so it moves as he raises his arm, etc.
Anyway, I enjoyed the posting from OLD VIC (? I think) I like his PT goals.

From Vic:
I had shoulder surgery on Sept. 24. Doc said I might be able to shoot by the first of the year. I wore a shoulder "immobilizer" for six weeks which caused me to miss antelope hunting this year. The first problem was not recoil, but how to get a rifle up into shooting position. I made this part of my PT. Within two weeks I was able to get my Marlin .45 Colt up into position, though it was a slow process. I then started out with light "cowboy" loads. I then moved up to full power hunting loads and continued work on quickly mounting the rifle. During the last two weeks I was able to take two does and a small bear. Amazingly, although I was able to shoot game by myself, I required help getting the game out, loaded, and butchered. The next phase of PT that I will concentrate on is practice moving hand to mouth with a light weight. A fork with a load of venison on it sounds about right.

Super Mag, your body will tell you how fast to go. Just like in reloading. Start low and work up.

725

11-29-2007, 11:01 AM

Tough time of the year to go down to injury. All the input above seems positive to me and just to add my two cents, take time to heal! Do the PT, live healthy, use good judgement and don't start back to long guns too soon. Treat it good for the next several months and then take an additional month for safety sake. A little time and care now will prevent a lifetime of constant pain and reduced ability. I only speak from experience with bad parachutes, motorcycles, rock falls, .............. Best of luck.

redbear705

11-30-2007, 12:57 AM

S.R.Custom

11-30-2007, 08:11 PM

Thanks to everyone for their well wishes, and a big hat tip to those of you who asked professionals on my behalf. The information was greatly appreciated, and quite useful.

Wednesday was three weeks to the day, and about four days ago the pain drastically diminished, allowing me to do simple things like wash dishes, drink coffee, shave, etc... I've been pushing it, doing range of motion things, in an effort to keep the atrophy at bay, and the sling has been history for the past few days. More comfortable without, actually. Whenever it gets particularly sore, I take a time-out in the comfy chair with a heating pad underneath. Oh-my-gawd does that feel gooooooood. Particularly since I don't punish my liver with pain killers.

Had a follow up visit at the doc's today. The xray...

http://www.salmonriverdesign.com/STUFF/xray2.jpg

...shows the glenoid fractures starting to heal up. The scapular fracture is really apparent in this photo, tho, and I was not really aware of its severity until seeing this pic. This pic is more commensurate with the pain I feel, lol... Doc says to keep up with the physical activity, as much as I can stand.

Took the pistols out today. I didn't dare shoot the .44s with the bad arm, so I practiced some weak hand drills. Even that caused some achiness after a bit. I did shoot the .22 with the right hand --two-handed actually-- and hoo-boy, you just don't have an appreciation for the recoil of a .22 'til you shoot one with a busted wing!

Anyway, I'm on the mend-- each day is an order of magnitude better than the day before. Thanks again for the info and support! Cheers,

Mike

BTW, no adventurous tales explain this injury. No bad parachutes, no daredevil motorcycle jumps. Get this-- I tripped walking across the driveway in the dark. A gravel driveway, yet. I was coming from the woodshed with some woodscrews in my hand, tripped, and fell. Since I didn't want to lose the screws, I pulled my hand in and took the brunt of the fall on my elbow. Never do that, kids. Falling on the elbow like that transmits the shock in a straight line to the shoulder. Get those hands out there when you fall...

Ricochet

11-30-2007, 08:53 PM

And then you'll end up with Colles' fractures of both wrists.

You find out who your real friends are when you can neither feed yourself nor wipe your butt.

S.R.Custom

11-30-2007, 09:01 PM

I dunno... A week before I broke my shoulder, a buddy of mine fell out of his truck --he was standing on the tailgate unloading firewood-- and did just that. He only broke one wrist, tho. But in comparing our respective levels of pain and debilitation, I'd much rather have his injury than mine. http://fordsix.com/forum/images/smiles/yes.gif

piwo

12-01-2007, 01:16 AM

44man,
I can't agree with your post entirely. The shoulder is a complex joint and MANY reasons for pain and impediment of range of motion. If it needs to be repaired, not doing so will not help in the long run: it will make things worse. That the subset of the folks you know seemed to be worse off I would say is an anomaly. If labrum tears and or bone chips are present, all the wishful thinking and inactivity will not help in the least... A competent doctor WELL VERSED in shoulder mechanics is in order. Nothing less. If you don't know of one, visit STL area and contact DR. Richard Lehman. The list of world class athletes that seek him out from every corner of the earth is testament to his credentials. He's also a hell of a nice guy.....
When it comes to rehabing a shoulder, the thing that prevents the full range of motion is not the surger, it's the patient and their not working hard enough or not having good therapy following. Period.

Ricochet

12-01-2007, 05:55 PM

When it comes to rehabing a shoulder, the thing that prevents the full range of motion is not the surgery, it's the patient and their not working hard enough or not having good therapy following. Period.
I agree with that. And having been through an accident that nearly tore my right arm off at the shoulder (it was jacked up behind my neck and wrapped around my back as I tumbled off my Harley), with the shattered upper humerus having to be replaced with a metal prosthesis and the jagged pieces of the humeral shaft wire-wrapped together, the assorted tendons wired to the metal prosthesis, the AC joint having been sprung open and the soft tissues around the shoulder joint pretty well mangled by the bone fragments whipping around in there, I can assure you that the rehab is very painful and difficult. But it's got to be done. I'm thankful that I can do most anything I want to with mine, including firing heavy-recoiling rifles. But you can't recover from something like that without making up your mind that you'll do whatever it takes.

S.R.Custom

12-01-2007, 06:39 PM

Ouch!

Back atchya. ;)

...you can't recover from something like that without making up your mind that you'll do whatever it takes.

Absolutely correct. My current affliction is no more than a minor annoyance compared to an earlier injury that took most of a year to overcome. Thirteen years later and I still have a few pins in my hand...

Sometimes you can get away without surgery; I was very lucky with this shoulder in that even though it's broken in a few places, stuff is pretty much where it should be, and it'll nit with a minimum of interference. Other times, the need for surgery is painfully obvious, and you know you're in for a long haul.

But regardless of the situation, it's up to the patient to gather all the pertinent information and make an informed (not wishful) determination. And X-rays have a wonderful way of clarifying things for you. :mrgreen:

Ricochet

12-02-2007, 02:29 PM

Absolutely. My definition of "major surgery" has always been: Any surgery that's going to be performed on YOU.

modoc

12-02-2007, 09:37 PM

Guys,

Thanks for the great info/stories/advice and encouragement. As I sit here, it has been 5 days since the Doc. Repaired and reattached the labrum to the shoulder and removed the bits and pieces that did not belong. He is saying FULL imobilization for another3-4 weeks and then I get to begin therapy:neutral:. At least I can still type, even if I can't shoot, cast or reload:groner:

Will

modoc

12-23-2007, 10:50 PM

SuperMag,

Just wondering how your shoulder is doing. I am starting to get a small bit of movement out of mine.

S.R.Custom

12-24-2007, 01:17 AM

The 19th was 6 weeks, and I last saw the doc on the 5th. It was a very short visit-- he wanted new X rays, to see my range of motion and test the strength, but no mention of PT or rehab. He just told me to keep up the good work. (I've been back at work on a limited basis, and I've been forcing the shoulder to do as much as the pain will allow-- stretching, exercising, lifting a few weights.)

Some motions show pretty good strength, others are still quite weak, but each day I can feel significant improvement. Some days I kind of over do it and it hurts, but when I do that, it shows more than the usual amount of improvement the next day. It would seem the shoulder is a joint that likes to be worked.

But more importantly, I'm casting bullets and loading shells. Working on a few gunroom projects, too. Week 4 saw me out with the .44s, --ouch-- and yesterday I took the 7mm BLR out on a 3 mile hike, to see what I could see. I almost shot it off the bad shoulder--it feels that good-- but the last Xrays didn't show as much progress as I expected to see for how good it feels. So I shot it (badly) off the left.

Glad to hear you've got some motion. Hurts like hell, doesn't it? But I'm here to tell ya, use it as much as you can. Your recovery will be a lot quicker for it. But the #1 piece of advice I have for you is this: Heating Pad! Lay one over the back of your comfy chair, and whenever you can, give the shoulder the deep heat. It loves that... :mrgreen: You wouldn't believe how that loosens everything up when it's feeling especially cranky.

Ricochet

12-24-2007, 02:00 AM

+1 on the heating pad! :-D

cohutt

12-24-2007, 08:04 AM

http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/shoulder_index

PT= "Physical Terrorist" IMHO but are the ones who most help you determine your post injury lifestyle limitations (or not).

When i turned 40 i got a chip on my shoulder and got into the best shape of my life, could bench press what i could in highschool, competed with 20 year olds in summer league sports- briefly.

Hit the ground like a bag of wet sand once, removed "chip" from my shoulder with exclamtion point and that ended that. When all was done i needed surgery to repair some main stabilizing (glenohumeral or something maybe) ligament at the attachmnet point & clean up the remnants of trauma. The layman's description was "the GI Joe shoulder rubber band". It was my shooting (right) shoulder.

Eventually got back to doing all i wanted to do, came to respect the drudgery of basic stabilization excercises for my shoulder, mainly "rowing" motions that keep the muscles on the back or the shoulder strong and flexible. pain goes away from the interior and front of the shoulder as lonng as these are fit.
That was almost 8 year back. I don't throw footballs with with the family kids at thanksgiving anymore but I can shoot my 45-70 just fine. :mrgreen:
Good luck.