Casting safety : how do you deal with fumes?

[kryogen]

It's -20 celcius outside right now.
I cast in my garage (from ingots that I smelted this summer, outside, and lead was fluxed with sawdust before pouring).

I cant really have good ventilation in the garage when I cast. Is it ok to just wear a respirator with the P100 Multi gas cartridges to prevent issues with toxic metal fumes?

"If you are using a 3M mask and want the highest level of protection from vapors and particles, these are the cartridges to use. 3M 60926 multi-gas cartridges are sold by the pair and combine a charcoal cartridge with 3M’s P100 (HEPA) filter for use when multiple types of vapors in combination with toxic dusts are present. We recommend this cartridge for mold removal and remediation work.

When properly fitted, the cartridge provides respiratory protection from organic vapors and particulates, chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sulfur dioxide, chlorine dioxide, hydrogen sulfide (escape only), ammonia, methylamine, formaldehyde or hydrogen fluoride at concentrations up to 10 times the Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) with half face pieces or 50 times PEL with full face pieces.

This is the cartridge to use (with adequate ventilation) when you are burning off lead-based paints with a heat gun. Use of this cartridge may impede the user’s ability to breathe as easily as they can without this level of protection. This cartridge is designed to be used with 3M 6000 Series or 7000 Series respirators. The cartridge is attached to the mask with the familiar bayonet style connector, requiring only a quarter turn to connect to the mask.

Part Number:
60926"


from leadmask.com

[Bzcraig]

There are no vapors from lead at casting temperatures. The only vapors are from the smelting process or what you add as flux.

[btroj]

I don't deal with fumes.

If the temp is reasonable I open the garage doors. If it gets cold enough I just leave em shut.

[Sgtonory]

I cast in a automotive shop. Most of the time i cast without the doors open. So i do nothing. Just cast lots and lots of boolits.

[kryogen]

According to:

From Ingot to Target:
A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners
Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate

Good ventilation is very important to the bullet caster. My fume hood also serves to provide suitable ventilation, not only for the smoke coming off the pot but also for the heavy metal fumes emanating from the pot. Lead fumes are an obvious concern, but more subtle is the fact that wheel-weight alloy also contains small amounts of arsenic. Arsenic is kind of a quirk in the periodic table in that it forms an oxide that is more volatile than the metal, and in fact at lead pot temperatures, some forms of arsenic oxide are fully gaseous, so if the arsenic gets oxidized all of it evaporates from the lead pot and is easily inhaled. Use of a reducing cover material helps to prevent this oxidation (see chapter on fluxing).

[kryogen]

Oh well, now that I do anything "molten lead" related with that respirator, and everything lead related with a mask, at least I feel like I am doing it safer I guess.

[btroj]

If it makes you feel better then by all means do it

[waksupi]

You guys are starting to scare me. When I'm waiting for the pot to come up to full heat, I crack a couple eggs and drop them on top of the melt to cook, and have a couple sandwiches. Press your bread up against the side of the pot to toast it a bit, and you are good to go!

Just kidding of course. Do whatever makes you comfortable.

[462]

There is much more toxic stuff in the air we breathe, and much more of it, than whatever may be emitted from our lead pots.

[seaboltm]

I cast outside. But I live on the gulf coast of Texas, and the coldest of days is not cold at all.

[zomby woof]

How about a fan?

[dondiego]

I hope you don't smoke tobacco!

[JSnover]

Under normal conditions, has it ever been a problem? My dross probably has a much higher arsenic/antimony content, so I do wear a mask when I'm recovering lead from that. Otherwise I just leave a door open or cast outside.

[Garyshome]

Set up a box fan to blow air on you.

[HeavyMetal]

always had concerns about smoke, from fluxing, as well as "unseen" gas's and such coming from contaminents on the WW metal I used to get at tire shops.

"Smelting" has always been done outdoors, One of the few perks of California is good weather 300 days a year, casting is another story.

Before my move in July I had a work bench set up in the back yard under a patio roof. This kept me in the shade and provided ventalation while casting.

Now sharing an apartment with the GF I find myself casting on the kitchen stove. I made a 3/4 inch plywood top to cover the burners and finished it with an Polyurathane clear coat. Beveled on the back side it fits flush with the back of the stove and square with the sides and front.

This now allows me to use the exhaust fan over the stove to keep flux smoke and other fumes under control.

This has worked well as I cast before Thanksgiving for a few hours making 457122 330 grain HP's for my 45-70 Contender and never had the smoke detectors go off once!!

Cool down is couple hours and clean up is as easy as putting the pot up and brushing off the top before putting it up, the little bits of lead droppings go back in the pot and we have no residual spilling on stove or counter areas because they are covered.

All in all I figure this is less exposure to toxic fumes than the GF kid's cigeraette habit!

[Mr Peabody]

I have my electric pot on a bench in my shop, by a window. I turn on a fan behind me to blow the fumes out the window. I get smoke or fumes from recycling lubed bullets and sometimes fluxing. It's too cold for me in the garage.

[jmort]

From all I have seen, rather than a fan blowing from behind you, a fan drawing away in front of you is better.

[bangerjim]

If you are worried about what your breathe.....be sure you DO NOT SMOKE!!!!!! EVER!!!!!! As pointed out above. That is far worse than the arsenic fumes you will encounter.

I do all my casting outdoors, but here in AZ the temps are normally in the mid 60's in the winter!

I will never go as far as wearing masks and breathing respirators.

Read /em & weep......all you guys in cold climates! I lived there for over 32 years!

The small amount of arsenic oxide you will encounter would be over a lot of casting sessions. That is why I have gotten away from WW's and make my alloys from what I need. I still have tons of WW ingots, but only use them when needed. I do not need arsenic for my casting hardness needs anymore.

Just watch out for your health. No hobby is worth your personal welfare. As the Ghost of Christmas Present says, "You are only here for a short time and suddenly......you aren't there anymore!"

bangerjim
just another fellow traveler to the grave

[kryogen]

Here is what I find interesting with all those personal opinions that everyone has.

No one has an opinion based on facts, that they can confirm with scientific evidence.
Of course, we melt below the boiling point, but are there any toxic metal oxides or anything toxic that emanates from the pot between 600-800 degrees?

"Don't worry about it, my grandfather has smoked 2 packs a day for 60 years and he died of a car accident". If it was dangerous, he would have died earlier.
"Naw, don't worry, just keep a fan blowing over you while you work around that sarin gas, it will blow most outside".
"Less dangerous than smoking". (really, how do you know? is that just your opinion? are you into scientific research or something? dare to prove it with some scientific litterature please? or is that just a point of view that has absolutely no valid background?)

Anyone has any link to any scientific evidence on this topic? Or are we just going with the opinions of people and what we have heard?
I'm not trying to start a flame war, just trying to get some real evidence out of this opinion thing.

[btroj]

No scientific testing here.

I worry far less about fumes than I do the little bits of lead left from cutting sprue and what not. Sweeping that stuff up leads to airborne dust, that I try to avoid.

I know some have used lead indicator swabs that showed positive for lead on surfaces a round the pot and in the vent hood. Those show a lead residue but how much? Is it significant?

I don't have the cash to spend on true testing. I think the best evidence yet is the low lead levels of most of our members who have been tested. Those who tested higher seem to shoot more at indoor ranges, makes me think that is a larger hazard, that and the case tumbler dust.

[dondiego]

Wear your masks.

[btroj]

A mask won't do much for "fumes", that would require a proper respirator. A mask will keep dust out of the lungs but not fumes.

[srk468]

I wear a mask and have a fan drawing away from me but when casting there's never really any smoke. When smelting I wear a mask and make sure its warm enough to open both bay doors and I do that right by the door opening with a fan blowing outside. Not saying I'm right but that's how I roll.

[josper]

I cast at a workbench in my cellar. I open a window near by and put a double barreled fan in it to draw off any smoke. All my smelting is done out in the yard when the weather permits. This is where I use the industrial grade respirator. My wife was concerned about my casting and lead exposure so I had a blood test for it when I went for a check up. The test came out to 4 which is good, anything under 10 is ok. I have read that taking vitamin C helps getting lead out of your system. I also shifted from tumbling my brass to using a sonic cleaner. Then I tumble to polish a little and dry.

[JSnover]

I used to get tested every year as an occupational health requirement because I occasionally worked with lead, cadmium, and beryllium/copper alloys. There was no change after I started casting. A greater threat comes from the paint, grease, tar, etc that might stuck to your scrap.

[fredj338]

I cast in the garage & wear a n95 dust mask, mostly for any fumes from fluxing & any dust stirred up by my MasterCaster fan. I do not worry about lead fumes @ 700deg. When I smelt it's outside, I stay up wind, wear the mask.

[462]

Where are the scientific facts that prove a pot of lead, at 725-degrees, emits toxic fumes.

Where are the scientific facts that show that wheel weights, laying along the side of the road, are hazardous to anyone's health?

Or, are we to just take the word of agenda-driven environmentalists?

[ukrifleman]

I always cast outside and upwind of the pot.
ukrifleman.

[waco]

I have been casting in a garage for over 14 years. Door is open if temp. allows, closed if not. Had blood work done 6 months ago and had them test lead levels. They didn't even register, they were so low.

Don't handle lead and then eat, smoke, chew tobacco, etc...... that might get you over time.
Waco

[Bullwolf]

Dunno how scientific this will be for you, but...

Ive played around with molten lead for a lot of years in my life in quite a few different ways including printing press type, shooting, making weights for cars, weights for diving, and of course melting lead, dirty wheel weights, and making boolits.

I have also had quite a few lead tests in my later years as well. I often came up so low it was not worth mentioning.

However, while I was working at a local indoor range the lead testing was mandatory.

My highest blood lead levels ever (yet still not dangerous) in my life, were while I was shooting frequently, and working at the indoor range. The range had a somewhat decent ventilation system that also piped in outside air. I would occasionally draw duty to oil the backstop, and shovel lead debris wearing a full Tivek paper suit, booties and respirator.

My blood lead levels dropped considerably once I stopped working at the indoor range, and shooting there for free.

I don't eat or smoke while I melt lead, and cast boolits. I wash my hands afterwards. I have NEVER worn a respirator while melting or casting lead. My blood levels have not increased from melting lead as long as I followed these simple practices. I have never seen any measurable lead exposure from melting or casting lead, and have taken no respirator precautions ever while doing so.

My blood lead levels were only noticeable while working and shooting frequently at the indoor range. My elevated blood lead level also dropped quite quickly after I ended that practice.

Scientific? Well quite a few blood tests were involved, but probably not scientifically enough.

What I took from this was that one gets more lead exposure from shooting indoors, than is received while melting and casting lead.

I don't worry about it much anymore, I worry more about burns, or maybe falling down these days.

I suspect you have seen more lead exposure from breathing primer fumes (lead styphnate) while shooting, and from tetra ethyl lead in old leaded gasoline than you will ever see from casting as long you remember not to stick your fingers in your mouth, wash your hands, and don't eat or smoke while casting.

This outright fear of metallic lead has been pushed around lots recently, and yet for years folks ate off lead flatware. In the medical field bullets and shot are often simply left in people rather than being removed along with the chance of causing extra damage. A good portion of our existing plumbing infrastructure is still held together with lead based solder, if not lead pipe outright. I know many people, myself included who grew up with lead based paint, leaded gasoline, chewed on a split weight sinker, or who may even still have a souvenir under the skin from service that have enjoyed long and healthy lives. So I don't buy into metallic lead being the super dangerous substance that everyone seems to think it is. Follow a few reasonable safety precautions and you should be fine.

However all that being said if wearing a respirator makes you feel better while you melt lead - by all means go for it.

It certainly won't hurt you any unless it fatigues you, or gets in your way while casting.




- Bullwolf

[dikman]

I suppose some scientifically derived results would be nice, but it will never happen. Who's going to pay for it? The scientific/medical fraternity won't, because it concerns a relatively small, specialised group of people and such testing has little benefit to the community at large. Which only leaves anecdotal evidence, supported by the experience of the members who have blood tests for lead. That, and a good dose of commonsense, is good enough for me. I don't intend panicking and over-reacting over it.

In fact, when I think back on what was considered acceptable many years ago, I suspect my health has probably been impacted more as a result of "passive smoking", from being in close proximity to smokers for many years, than it's likely to be by me melting lead to cast boolits.

One thing I've noticed, when I melt/flux my scrap (outdoors), even though I have a fan blowing on me the fumes always seem to drift around towards me - wherever I stand!!

[dverna]

Bullwolf is right about the dangers of some indoor ranges. We shot in one 40 years ago that very little exhaust ventilation and a number of us testing with a higher than average lead in our blood.

He is also correct in identifying the lead from the primer compounds to be of greatest concern.

I do not cast indoors in an enclosed space but if I did I would set up some type of fume hood. An old exhaust hood from a kitchen stove should be good enough to do the job.

Don Verna

[hendere]

I've been scared of what my blood levels may be and have been meaning to get tested for years. I cast in my garage with fan pulling away from me, I shoot indoors, I live in an 80 year old house that I have done huge amounts of work on that I'm sure stirred up lots of lead paint dust. All that being said, I don't seem to have any of the symptoms that I read about and I don't really know what I would change if I found out that my levels are elevated.

[HeavyMetal]

Krogen:
I'll suggest reading Richard Lee's second issue reloading manual.

In the chapter on casting is quite the story concerning one of the family friends who had an issue with high lead levels but was unable to find his "source". supplied with lead testing wipes he scoured his casting and reloading area's only to come up "lite" with the contaminent wipes.

The author the suggested he check the area used for brass cleaning. BINGO! wipes went ballistic with contaminates!

Lead dust, from primers and fired boolits is the biggest risk we, as reloaders, will face.

Thus my avoidance of indoor ranges and the need to cover or use my brass cleaner out side. I use a dust mask when removing brass from my Dillon tumbler and any time I retire old media. Not sure yet how the wet tumblers are in that area but suspect the contamainates are water bound until it evaporates.

For airborne contaminent information, specifically lead, I'll suggest a talk with a metalurigist such as rotometals, about fumes and toxicicity.

You may be surprised at the answers.

[cbrick]

Lot's of folks get wrapped around the axle over that extremely evil lead. The truth and science of lead is that it does not fume until it's well past 1100 degrees. WW alloy is supposed to contain approx. 1/4 of one percent arsenic (As) and As can fume at casting temps but only that which is at the surface of the melt and exposed to the air, your talking extremely small amounts. Two separate samples of clip-on weights XrF tested recently by this forum by two different testers showed no As.

Lead is not radioactive, it cannot jump out and get you, it is not laying in wait for you to get close. You need to ingest lead oxide or breath lead oxide dust over time with continued exposure for it to accumulate to have an issue. If you handle a heavily oxidized ingot that gray powder on your hands is lead oxide, it cannot be absorbed through the skin but . . . no thumb sucking until you wash your hands. Lead is far more toxic to children under the age of 5, keep children out of casting areas inside or out. You should be more concerned with the media in your vibratory tumbler than your casting pot, lead styphnate from primers accumulates there, wash your hands. Use common sense and reasonable safety precautions and you have little to worry about.

Lead is at it's most evil only in the minds of libtards because common sense there is extremely uncommon.

Rick

[Crash_Corrigan]

I do all my boolit and fish jig casting in my bedroom. I use a small fan to keep my casting area cooler cuz this is Las Vegas. I keep my alloy temps at less than 800 degrees. I have been doing this for over 20 years and I will continue to do this. I also use kitty litter on top of my pot to keep the oxidization at a minimum. I do all my smelting outdoor and I keep the pot downwind and I use a large box fan to suck away the smoke. I used to use a media tumbler but I have switched to the SS pin wet Thumbler Tumbler method a few years ago and I will never go back. You would not believe the color of the water after I open the lid. It is black. Totally black. I really switched because of my BPCR shooting as those cases really get filthy using Holy Black.

All being said I do use a mask and I wear latex gloves when I punch out the primers on my single stage press and I usually do this outdoor and keep everything downwind of me. I believe that this operation is the most hazardous of all after smelting scrap lead. As for the inherent dangers in handling lead products I do not believe all the crapola that the libtards have been spewing over the last few years.

It really galls me to see what California has done to hunting and our sport along with gun purchases in general. I cannot wait until the West coast of the US will be the edge of Nevada and Kalifornia has drifted off the coast and is no longer attached to our nation.

[MNgunhead]

91923

I design hospital pharmacies where they compound chemo drugs. These drugs are bad news for the people who work with them daily. For this reason, they do the mixing in a negative pressure fume hood. I am not sure how bad it really is to breathe the fumes from the casting pot, but it can't be good for you. I decided to make my own el cheepo version of the fume hood. It's basically a plywood box with a bathroom vent fan mounted to the top. The casting pot sits in the front opening and the air is pulled away from me and exhausted through a flexible vent line out the side door of my garage. It works very well.

As you can see my bench is a bit of a mess. I'm going to set up a separate casting bench so I can have a little more dedicated space to work in. I'm pretty new to casting, but thought you all may benefit from my simple contraption. I have learned alot from you guys and have really enjoyed the forum.

[ElDorado]

I cast outdoors, and if I don't wear a respirator, I spend the rest of the day with an irritated throat and post-nasal drip. I don't know if it's lead, flux, or what, but something in the pot bothers me. When I say respirator, mean a rubber half-mask with filters, not one of those bra-cup looking surgical things.

Smoke and metal fumes are particles. You don't need the organic vapor filter, that's for other things. You'll want just the particulate filter.


I recommend one of these:

http://www.coopersafety.com/product/3m-6000-half-face-respirator-1216.aspx

With any of these:

http://www.coopersafety.com/product/3m-2091-p100-filter-2-pack-1594.aspx

http://www.coopersafety.com/product/3m-7093-p100-respirator-filter-12-pack-1600.aspx

http://www.coopersafety.com/product/3m-advanced-particulate-filter-p100-2-pack-17588.aspx


The 3M 2091 (the first filter I listed) is the one we use at work for metal fumes (grinding, welding, etc) and it may work for you as well.

[Shiloh]

I cast in the garage. There is always air moving in there. There is a window right behind my pot.

Shiloh

[kryogen]

Our new indoor range will have a full wall air corridor with a huge fan system and outside exhaust. I think the air system cost more than 100 000$ for 5 firing spots.

I think that on a lead safety point, we could consider this firing outside?

The p100 filters are probably good enough for "lead dust", like handling wheel weights, etc. But smelting, fluxing, and all that **** produces organic vapors that I would rather keep out. Maybe the small pancakes with organic relief could do it for "just casting".

I would rather pay a bit more and just have cartridges that are "all-proof". Those P100 multi gas cost me close to 40$ here in canada, but there is no price for health. Plus, they are useful when burning paint or doing any nasty smelting.

I have read the lee book a few years ago. I always wear a surgical mask when I handle my tumbler(or do anything that can dust in fact).
Medicom premier elite. Now, I don't know if that's good enough, but I guess that's better than nothing. Should I wear a respirator with P100 to handle the tumbler?

Mask Specs:
BFE and PFE filtration efficiency > 98% @ 0.1micron assures a high level of protection against potential sources of infection.
High Barrier (ASTM Level 3)


Thanks

[ElDorado]

Our new indoor range will have a full wall air corridor with a huge fan system and outside exhaust. I think the air system cost more than 100 000$ for 5 firing spots.

I think that on a lead safety point, we could consider this firing outside?

The p100 filters are probably good enough for "lead dust", like handling wheel weights, etc. But smelting, fluxing, and all that **** produces organic vapors that I would rather keep out. Maybe the small pancakes with organic relief could do it for "just casting".

I would rather pay a bit more and just have cartridges that are "all-proof". Those P100 multi gas cost me close to 40$ here in canada, but there is no price for health. Plus, they are useful when burning paint or doing any nasty smelting.

I have read the lee book a few years ago. I always wear a surgical mask when I handle my tumbler(or do anything that can dust in fact).
Medicom premier elite. Now, I don't know if that's good enough, but I guess that's better than nothing. Should I wear a respirator with P100 to handle the tumbler?

Mask Specs:
BFE and PFE filtration efficiency > 98% @ 0.1micron assures a high level of protection against potential sources of infection.
High Barrier (ASTM Level 3)


Thanks

Your lead pot will not produce the type of vapors that an organic vapor filter will protect you from. That's for certain paints and pesticides, and you can determine which paints and pesticides by reading the label on the paint or pesticide. Burning wood and valve stems doesn't produce organic vapors. A P-100 filter will take care of almost anything that is likely to be in your pot, unless you're burning nerve gas or something. You do whatever makes you feel safe, but a P-100 is more than enough around a lead pot, even smelting.

The dust mask is only 50% efficient, according to the training I received. That means you're breathing in 1/2 of the stuff you're trying to keep out. I wear one in the attic, because the insulation bothers me and it keeps me from coughing. It never occurred to me to wear one while tumbling brass, or while decapping, as Richard Lee claims. If you're concerned about lead dust, or dust in general, a P-100 respirator is made for it.

I hope this helps. Happy casting.

[MT Gianni]

I have averaged 100 lbs a year since 93. Last test was negligible less than 1%. I smelt outside in the spring/summer and cast in a shop. An electric, thermostatically pot should not produce lead or arsenic fumes. A gas one may reach high enough temps (1200F).

[kryogen]

Looking back, I should have definitely worn a p100 respirator more often in my life. Like a few years ago sanding a whole patio with old oil paint, having a mask helps, but your nose (and lungs) are still full of it.. oh well.

The best time to plant an oak tree was 20 years ago. The next best time is today. P100 it is to handle lead I guess.

[Psypher]

I wear a mask inside or outside. When I cast inside the garage I open the door part way and connect my home made air-mover vent and filtration system. I took the window gap fillers for air conditioning units and connected them to a custom built frame that holds a hepa filter. The opposite end of the door gets the air-mover.

I should have a dryer vent installed for this application soon so I can keep air flows at opposite ends of the room.

[hhilljr]

My setup is in a small block outbuilding with a door at one end and a window at the other. My Promelt is in front of the window, with a fan between it and the window. Yesterday, as I was fluxing with sawdust, a breeze blew in the window and I took a good dose of smoke, the effects of which I still feel today. Because of this, I'm giving serious thought to some sort of respirator.
My bigger concern is wondering how much exposure I have in carrying the melter from my basement to the outbuilding. Some b--tard broke into my building this fall and stole a melter full of lead. These things are expensive, and I am afraid to leave it there permanently. AM I putting myself at great risk lugging this pot back and forth?

[dondiego]

You could end up with a back injury if you don't practice safe lifting technic. A full pot of lead is quite heavy. Watch out for the dangling cord too.

[Dale in Louisiana]

I worry more about the idiots driving on the same highway as I do on the way to work every day than I do about the possibility of harm from the lead I melt for casting.

There's a greater hazard from burns.

didn't somebody ever tell you that shooting was dangerous?

Maybe we shouldtake up knitting... but those needles... they're so awfully sharp...

dale in Louisiana

[Elkins45]

If you will take a look at this chart of vapor pressures you will see that at 1000 degrees K, which is 1340 F, the vapor pressure of Pb is 10 ^-2 mm Hg. Normal atmospheric pressure is 760 mm Hg. That lead isn't exactly crawling out of the pot. At 600 K (a reasonable casting temp of 700F) it barely registers on the graph. Pb vapor simply isn't a concern.

http://www.powerstream.com/vapor-pressure.htm

The quote from Fryxell about As is new information to me. I don't see As on this chart, and don't know much about its oxide products. This bears some investigation