Alloy at 2200 fps?

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

This spring I’m going to try to achieve good accuracy and minimal leading at 2200 fps with cast rifle bullets. I have on hand soft (but not pure) lead, clip-on wheel weight metal, lead/tin solder, and linotype metal. Bullets will have gas checks and LBT Blue Soft lube.

My question is, what alloy should I mix to make bullets suitable for hunting, that will not fragment on impact? Expansion is not necessary.

I know this question has been asked and answered, but I have difficulty finding information with the search engine here. I’ve reviewed many pages in several forums, and have looked for appropriate “sticky” posts. If you know of an appropriate thread, would you please point me to it?

Thank you.

Take care, Tom

[WILCO]

High Tom!

What rifle and caliber are you working with?
Harder alloys like Linotype do better in rifle boolits.

[Larry Gibson]

Wilco's question is a good one and he beat me to it. Answer?

Larry Gibson

[Tatume]

Hi Wilco and Larry,

I'll start with a Ruger No. 1 in 9.3x74R. This gun has proven to be extremely accurate with wheel weight bullets at 1700 fps.

I've read consistently that Linotype will fragment on game, so I want to soften or toughen the alloy to prevent this. I'm looking for data on the proportion of antimony, tin and lead that will perform well on game at speeds above 2000 fps.

Thanks, Tom

[milkman]

From my poor, pitiful, failed, aborted, frustrating and misbegotten attempts to get to that velocity with accuracy.... alloy is only one of the questions you should be asking. However, water dropped lyman #2 clone might be a place to start.

[Tatume]

Milkman,

I agree and don't expect a magic potion. However, I also know I'll never get there with the wrong alloy. Thanks for the suggestion on Lyman #2. I'll search for threads with that keyword.

Take care, Tom

[milkman]

The only rifle I have come close with is a 35 cal with a 1-14 twist. Best of luck

[WILCO]

Hi Wilco and Larry,

I'll start with a Ruger No. 1 in 9.3x74R. This gun has proven to be extremely accurate with wheel weight bullets at 1700 fps.

I've read consistently that Linotype will fragment on game, so I want to soften or toughen the alloy to prevent this. I'm looking for data on the proportion of antimony, tin and lead that will perform well on game at speeds above 2000 fps.

Thanks, Tom

Great choice in rifle and cartridge Tom.

One place to start would be with a mixed alloy of Lyman #2 and Linotype (BHN 18).

[Tatume]

Hi Wilco,

Interesting. That would appear to be slightly lower in tin and slightly higher in antimony than Lyman #2. I've read in several places that tin adds no value to bullet alloy at concentrations greater than 4%, so that corroborates your suggestion. But doesn't additional antimony make the alloy more brittle?

Thanks, Tom

[pls1911]

Keep it simple
Learned this from others while shooting hundreds of rounds of 30-30 at silhouette matches...
I've pushed to 2200 fps with good results, but have found little benefit in as much as brass lasts MUCH longer with loads in the 1800-1900 fps range


Plain old wheel weights will do fine if they cast consistently... but you need to heat treat them.
Bake 'em at 450 degrees in the oven for a full hour or a bit more, then IMMEDIATELY quench 'em in a 5 gallon bucket of ice cold water.
Depending on your alloy and technique you'll have a malleable bullet of hardness between 25 and 29 (Linotype is only 21 BHN).
I use 50/50 mix of WW or #2-sh alloy/pure lead with this same method and push 1900 fps with pig shoulder accuracy and bullets hold together nicely.
Expansion? Who knows? "Hole out" is much bigger than "hole in" with flat point 30 cal bullets, but bullets always pass through both shoulders.
It only takes a the little antimony and trace arsenic in WW to make a great heat treatable lead alloy that shoots at least as well as linotype, but without the brittleness of high antimony alloys.
This method with gas checked bullets never leads either.... TC Pistols or Microgroove Marlins, or Ballard rifled Savages or Winchesters... works well in .308 and '06s too.

[Tatume]

Thank you for the suggestion. Heat treating is not something I've tried, but water quenching is a technique I've used before. Water quenching WW bullets gets about BHN 19 for me.

[Pilgrim]

Straight WW with 2% tin, aircooled will be around BHN 14 +/- . I size it in a .360 die w/ LBT blue. This alloy is used in a 35-200 w/ gc is my hunting load for my .358 Win. Velocity is 2430 fps over the chronograph, so it's probably 2450 or so at the muzzle. No leading. Groups inside 1.5" @100 yds. It has accounted for 1 moose and 1 cow elk. I either get pass through or a perfect mushroom. The latter after going thru the spine and about 4' of moose. We found it under the skin on the right shoulder. As loaded = 213 gr. As found = 167 gr. Good enuf? Pilgrim

[pls1911]

Pilgrim ...Results like yours are the BEST... it's simply a statement of fact, not open to interpretation.
I've never gone that fast with non heat treated lead...nice to know someone who has and had good results, at least with .35 cal...maybe that has something to do with it. And comparatively speaking, Moose and Elk are not soft targets.
All my work in rifles has been in 30 cal. and 45/70.
Thanks.

[Larry Gibson]

Tatume

Pilgrim's suggestion of Straight WW with 2% tin, aircooled will be around BHN 14 +/- took the words straight out of my mouth.......

I shoot that alloy out of numerous cartridges to 2200+ fps, especially those with 12" twists barrels or slower. A good batch of COWWs when aged for 10 days gives me a BHN of 16 - 17. If I WQ them out of the mould then the BHN jumps up to 24 - 26. Whether or not to WQ will depend on bullet design, burning rate of powder and barrel twist. For example; I can push the 35-200-FN AC'd out of my 16" twist 35 Rem (M91 Mauser w/26" barrel) with 4895 with excellent accuracy at close to 2200 fps. However with my 26" barreled M70 with 12" twist in 375 H&H I have to WQ the 375449s to get the same accuracy over 4895 at 2200 fps. Faster than 2200 fps up to 2400+ with the H&H I switch to AA4350 powder.

I suggest you try AC'd bullets first over a medium or slow burning powder. If that doesn't give the desired accuracy expected (but reasonable) then WQ the bullets and try the same load at 2200 +/- fps. If that doesn't work then a better designed bullet for the velocity, perhaps a different powder or slightly lowering the velocity may do the trick.

Larry Gibson

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

you can also visit the lead forum, and look over the various threads on copper enriched alloys.
Using 50/50 coww and pure, & tin, with copper alloyed in, a 24 bhn boolit is easily obtained by heat treating, and it will be malleable enough to use on game.
The ones I've played with, I can smash flat as a quarter without fractures or loosing weight.

[quilbilly]

Since wheel weights are getting fewer and harder to find, try a little experimenting. Mix about 60% soft, 36% lino, and add some tin then see if your rifle likes it. You can replace the lino with hard lead bird shot you can often find cheap at garage sales in partial bag plus the bird shot is a lot easier to weigh for a precise alloy.

[Tatume]

Good enuf? Pilgrim

Good enuf. In fact, this is the alloy I'm using for my high-performance revolver bullets, and is also the composition of my current 9.3mm bullets that I'm shooting so well at 1700 fps. It appears all I need to do is add more powder!

Thanks, Tom

[bangerjim]

Many on here are getting excellent results using softer lead by ES gun powder coating boolits. It not only allows you to use softer lead, not worry about the alloy as much, but eliminates the need for greasy lubes and lubra-sizer machines. And.......there is NO LEADING!

give it a whirl. The HF gun is only $59-25%.......and their powder is $5.50/#.

I am very happy with my results. Read the stickies on here about PC and decide for yourself if that is the route you want to try.

bangerjim

[mikeym1a]

Say, Tom, where do you go to shoot down there. I come through your area on 17 when I go to visit my sister in Carrolton.

[Tatume]

Hi Mikey,

I shoot at a range in White Stone, VA. The range is 30 miles from my home. Do you recall seeing a fire watch tower in northern Gloucester Co.? My home is nearby, and that's where I cross Rt. 17 on my way to the range.

If I knew when you were going to be through here I could invite you to shoot, but I'll only be going to the range on Friday mornings from now through the end of May.

Take care, Tom

[Tatume]

Many on here are getting excellent results using softer lead by ES gun powder coating boolits. It not only allows you to use softer lead, not worry about the alloy as much, but eliminates the need for greasy lubes and lubra-sizer machines. And.......there is NO LEADING!

Hi Jim,

I'm reading about this now. I had previously perused this topic and dismissed it, but now I'm intrigued. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do.

Take care, Tom

[Char-Gar]

I am not a water dropper or an oven temperer. When I push cast rifles bullet past 2,000 fps I use either Lyman No. 2 or 50/50 pure lead and linotype. Both yield bullets of about the same hardness.

Will softer bullets do about as well? Yea probably. Will harder bullets do about as well? Yea probably.

Here are the issues about hunting with cast bullets;

1. Find the game
2. Hit the game in exactly the right spot.

All the fuss about bullet hardness is way behind these two in importance.

[youngda9]

I solved this riddle already with my stainless Hawkeye in 358 Win. I use water dropped wheel weights with a pinch of 50/50 solder dropped in to help with fill-out. The bullet is an Accurate 36-230D, which I specified to have a long full-caliber length. I seat to about .005 off the rifling, IIRC. The gas-check does not go below the neck inside the case(as designed). I size to .3588, dip in Recluse lube(ALL of the grooves), and then pass through the Lee sizer again to pack the grooves and remove the excess lube. I looked at a lot of powder data to determine the powder that gives the highest velocity with the lowest pressure for 225gr bullets...the answer is H4895. So this is the powder I chose. I worked up the load to 42grains which gives me 2209fps ten feet out from the muzzle...I assume the muzzle velocity is right at 2225fps. I never worked past this velocity because I was happy with the results. There is no leading...with hundreds of rounds fired, accuracy remains consistent.

I 2/3 neck size my brass only. Groups are 0.75" to 1.25" for 5 shots at 100 yards depending on how steady I am on that particular day. I just got a new, much steadier, front rest so I hope I that will help with the group sizes. My barrel has tons of pressure from the stock on the bottom of the barrel...it is really locked in there.

[muskeg13]

Your boolits don't have to be rock hard to work at jacketed velocities. I echo the air cooled ww with 2% tin and a gas check producing negligible leading from 1900 to a bit over 2300 in several .35 to .45 caliber rifles. Also, watch your sizing and use a good lube. Sometimes I get a very slight gray wash at the muzzle (easily cleaned with a dry patch), but this is usually eliminated completely if I tumble lube sized and alox lubed boolits with a final coat of Lee Liquid Lube and Johnson's Paste Wax. With a lube "star" on the muzzle, I never have leading.

[pls1911]

With the discussion above, I'm now curious enough to revisit 2100fpsin 30-30.

And a +1 for Muskeg's final pass with a light LLA/JPW coating.
Over kill? Maybe, but cheap insurance against any leading.
It's my practice and I certainly cannot complain about the results.

[Tatume]

I tumble lube sized and alox lubed boolits with a final coat of Lee Liquid Lube and Johnson's Paste Wax. With a lube "star" on the muzzle, I never have leading.

How do you mix the LLA and JPW? Would it be satisfactory to just squirt a shot of LLA in a tub, stir in a dab of JPW, and swirl the bullets?

Thanks, Tom

[451whitworth]

Pilgrim's post pretty much sums it up. i shoot alot at 2200fps and above with heat treated wheel weights. If i want to take game with those loads i just use the same bullet but air cooled. they impact the same POI

[Larry Gibson]

I am not a water dropper or an oven temperer. When I push cast rifles bullet past 2,000 fps I use either Lyman No. 2 or 50/50 pure lead and linotype. Both yield bullets of about the same hardness.

Will softer bullets do about as well? Yea probably. Will harder bullets do about as well? Yea probably.

Here are the issues about hunting with cast bullets;

1. Find the game
2. Hit the game in exactly the right spot.

All the fuss about bullet hardness is way behind these two in importance.

And that is the way it is........:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[Jack Stanley]

How do you mix the LLA and JPW? Would it be satisfactory to just squirt a shot of LLA in a tub, stir in a dab of JPW, and swirl the bullets?

Thanks, Tom

Tom , That's how I lube some of my bullets for twenty-two and thirty caliber .

Jack