bullets keyholing Savage 99

[DeadWoodDan]

Been an on and off again project, my brother inherited a Savage 99 in .250-3000. Been trying to develop a load for it, but we kept getting keyholes. Had worked up loads using 85 gr Nosler Ballistic tips and H4895,H335, and Varget powders loading at 2.500" C.O.L. Beginning loads all key holed and showed sign of primers backing out. So I pulled all loads and did some researching and reading. Started over today with some different bullets and stayed with H4895.

We had Nosler Ballistic tips in 85 and 100gr, Sierra 87gr spritzer, and 90gr HP, and 70 gr Hornady BT.

What we discovered was that the Ballistic tips would not shoot round holes for anything, but the others seated at 2.465" resulted in round holes. The C.O.L. was just determined when we switched to a different bullet and we went with it. Only my Hornady gave a Max. C.O.L. , so i went with it. Could not get the ballistic tips to shoot with the new C.O.L.

Going to try Win. 748 tomorrow and see what happens. Any thoughts on why the ballistic tips wouldn't shoot? And what to try?

Thanks
DWD

[Bad Water Bill]

Being an older rifle of unknown care I would check bbl diameter and condition as well as what the throat looks like and length is.

Many of those older rifles were used at deer season then simply hung out to dry till next season.

[Artful]

First thought - what does it do with factory ammo?

[Bret4207]

Yup, what's it do with factory? What's the muzzle look like? If some previous owner went at the bore with a bad rod or carelessly the muzzle could be worn badly. Often you can counter bore them and get them shooting if that's the case. A worn barrel will sometimes give you key holes too.

[Duckiller]

How old is this gun? Early guns were made for 87 grain bullets to get 3000fps. May stabilize 100 gr but supposedly not 115-120 gr. I have had two, both take down. First one has a constantly lengthening head space. 2nd one has been shot less and works like it is supposed to. both guns stabilized winchester 100 gr factory ammo.

[DeadWoodDan]

we had shot a box of Remington soft points over the summer without issues, i checked those primers and should some flattening, almost similar to ours but not backed out. Not sure of its age, will check the muzzle tomorrow. Cleaned it as best as possible. I would say it shows its age, but not been beaten up. We know it sat in a closet and attic for the last 20+yrs. This came from a lot of rifles we acquired from a third cousin.
Thanks
DWD

[gandydancer]

Mine will not shoot anything lighter than a 100 grain sierra boolit up to a 117 grain using 40/64 powder & regular primers.anything lighter will keyhole every time. My 250 donaldson ace will only shoot 87 grain sierra spritzer for the same reason.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Duckkiller nailed it. Try a flatbase in the 85-95 soft point spritzer style. Sometimes the boattails are just a bit long to stabilize but the flat bases will be fine. It's a twist thing.

BvT

[MtGun44]

Slow rifling twist, so keep boolits towards the light end of the range. Try a modest charge of
Unique, say 8-9 gr as a start and work up a bit. What diameter? Diameter is critical, too small
will cause leading and tumbling, too large is never a problem unless the round will not chamber.

If you get light loads working, you can push up to 1800 fps range with Unique, or 2400,
both likely to produce excellent accy but moderate velocities. As you try to obtain closer to
full velocity, you get a more difficult process to keep your accuracy. Not impossible, but it
takes work and study.

The 1400-1600 range should be easy with proper fit, good design, & good lube (NRA 50-50 is a good
starting point).

Bill

[felix]

Older 250 savage guns had 14 twist. 87 grain condoms were max length then, and will be now in that twist. The 10 twist guns came out much later. I doubt the model 99 ever had a 12 twist in 25 caliber which would have done 100 grainers good. 120 grainers need 10 twist. Keep in mind that lead boolits require LESS twist than those with a lighter jacket, so sometimes we can cheat with boolits and get away with it. Anyway, twist trumps forward velocity many times over, so providing a little more velocity would be marginal at best. ... felix

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Every "keyhole" problem I have faced was traced to undersized boolits. More than half due to very fat throats.
The 1892 44 WCF I had with me Monday for a drive up the mountain must be fed .433+ for the fat throat in a .429 bore or it throws wonderful patterns at 25 yards.
A chamber cast is the best way to begin work with any new to you firearm. Took me years to realise it.. but it is the best invested one hour process in the happy shooting process.
Mike in Peru

[Mk42gunner]

Check the twist of the barrel. I have read somewhere in the last year or so that some of the Savage Model 99's had twists that varied from the supposed standard, both fast and slow.

If your brother's rifle is slower than the standard of 1:14", that coupled with a very long for its weight 85 grain Ballistic Tip could well be the cause.

Robert

[Bad Water Bill]

A serial # will tell us when it was made.

Some of the older ones had some ??? twists, apparently depending on what day it was made etc.

The more we know the more help we can be.

[obssd1958]

My model 99 in 250-3000 showed the exact same aversion to the Ballistic Tips, that yours is showing. They went through the target sideways to some degree - every shot.
I'm pretty sure the problem was caused by the length of the Ballistic Tips in that 1 in 14 twist barrel...
I was able to solve the issue on my rifle, by going to Speer 100gr flat base soft points. Found a load using H4895 that would hold MOA out to 300 yards. Plenty good enough to take a nice antelope at a little over 300 yards, season before last!

Don

[Lloyd Smale]

all the savage 250s were 1 in 14. At least till they came out with there latest 250 in a bolt gun. Im sure the reason there not stabilizing the bts is that a bt due to its tipped design is a bit longer then a conventional bullet of the same weight. Id try conventional speer, sierra or hornady bullets 85-87. Ive got a winchester model 70 light weight carbine in 250 that my son has killed a number of deer with using 87 grain sierras at about 2900 fps and its done just fine for him.

[gnoahhh]

All good advice. Definitely a twist issue. Savage went from a 1-14" twist to a 1-10" twist around 1970 (give or take) when they re-introduced the .250 to their lineup via the 99A carbine. In the older ones stick with 87 grain flat based jacketed bullets, or 100 grains if you can find some round nose or semi-spitzers the same length as the 87 grain FB spitzers. The magic number here is .850" in length (arrived at after some joint experimentation involving several rifles).

Speaking in terms of rates of twist, it's all about length, not weight, of bullets and whether or not they'll stabilize.

Savage utilized sine bar rifling equipment back in the day, which was dependent upon operator skill and attention. Slight variations in rate of twist are not uncommon because of that.

I have a file trim die I made for reducing the length of offending .25 caliber 100 grain bullets, down to a length of .850". It worked quite well in making too long Nosler Partitions short enough to give decent accuracy in a 1-14" twist .250-3000, after they initially showed signs of gross destabilization. Weight reduction in the process is negligible. If anybody wants it, I'll sell it cheap as I don't mess with it anymore. If I ever feel the need to, I can always make another one. PM me if interested.

[DeadWoodDan]

gnoahh, pm inbound to learn more about this tool.

Crown looks better than other features on this one.
s/n 344,XXX
I worked up loads in both Sierra 85gr spitzer and 90gr bt/hp with H4895 31, 32, and 33grains.
The 85gr gave best groups under 3" at 70yds using iron sights. I know this may not seem like great groups, but need more practice and no keyholes.
The 90gr HP's were bigger groups but would take a coyote at 100yds we felt. and no keyholes!!

So bt's are a no go. To bad since we have 2 boxes of them

DWD

[Moondawg]

I have a 1949 vintage Savage 99 in 250 Savage. It shoots 100 gr Speer and Sierra FB like a house afire, and both bullets work great on whitetail deer. At least until it gets about 4-5 rounds through it and the barrel heats up a little. Than it starts stringing. I have not checked the twist but I suspect it is 1:10. I have heard that post-war 99s were 1:10 while pre-war were 1:14. I don't know this for a fact.

[quilbilly]

I had a Mod. 99 250-3000 from the 1930's and it shot 87's and 100's superbly but could barely keep a 115-120 on the backstop let alone on the paper. 87's shot the best so deer hunted with those. The largest bodied black-tail I have ever seen (the halves totaled 200# hanging at the butcher shop) fell to one of those 87's taking nary a step. Love that caliber so when I sold the 99, I bought a T/C Encore in that caliber and it not only shoots the 120's well but loves cast boolits.

[woody1]

My model 99 in 250-3000 showed the exact same aversion to the Ballistic Tips, that yours is showing. They went through the target sideways to some degree - every shot.
I'm pretty sure the problem was caused by the length of the Ballistic Tips in that 1 in 14 twist barrel...
I was able to solve the issue on my rifle, by going to Speer 100gr flat base soft points. Found a load using H4895 that would hold MOA out to 300 yards. Plenty good enough to take a nice antelope at a little over 300 yards, season before last!

Don

This pretty much nails it. A 14 twist 250 Sav. won't generally shoot ballistic tips period! They're too long and don't stabilize. My 14 twist 99 will do well with either Remington factory 100's or Winchester Silver Tip 100's. As an aside, the Silver Tips are slightly shorter than the Remington PSP's. A good 87 grain bullet for deer is the Speer 87 grain Hot Core. Regards, Woody

[DeadWoodDan]

Looks like the rifle was made in 1935. Any way to confirm the twist rate? Nothing stamped on the barrel.
Thanks for all the help
DWD

[woody1]

I'd bet it's a 14 twist more or less. Confirm this with a cleaning rod and a bore brush and/or a tight patch. Measure the distance it takes for rod to make one complete turn. Regards, Woody

I'll be dipped. Just noticed this is my 1000th post

[Bad Water Bill]

woody1 DIP:bigsmyl2:

[gnoahhh]

I have a 1949 vintage Savage 99 in 250 Savage.

I have not checked the twist but I suspect it is 1:10. I have heard that post-war 99s were 1:10 while pre-war were 1:14. I don't know this for a fact.

I apologize for writing long winded responses that possibly turn some folks off , and cause them to maybe not read the entire thing. As I stated, Savage .250-3000s were nominally 1-14" twist until the late 60's, probably 1970, when it was changed to 1-10". Not many were made during the 60's as the then new-ish .243 and 6mm Remington had shoved it into early obsolescence (any rifles chambered for the .250 during that period by Savage need to be checked for rate of twist- anything could have come out of the factory then). Its revival came when Savage brought out the little 99A Saddle Gun along with a faster twist. Of course, savvy shooters never gave up on the little beastie and as Mark Twain said "rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated."

[Thin Man]

Sometime around the early or mid-1980's I bought a Winchester M-70 carbine, new production, 250-3000 caliber. Scoped it and started loading 100 grain condoms. That rifle earned patterns, not groups, with many bullets tipping. Winchester claimed it grouped well for them (they borrowed it back for a while) but forgot to tell me their load data. Got the action glass bedded, still no help. One national expert who had never seen the rifle suggested a bad barrel. Then came the day I was looking at the original shipping carton for the rifle and read: Twist 1:14 !!! I screamed so loud the wife thought I was having a medical episode. With research I found the Nosler ballistic tip 85 grain bullet was the shortest 85 available at that time. Bought and loaded some of these and suddenly I had groups, nice groups, and no tipping. Later I heard that when Winchester considered creating this caliber offering in the M-70 someone in their research department found that the original 250-3000 caliber had been designed with the 14 inch twist and applied it to this project. That person forgot to read up on all the follow-up work that was done to actually get an accurate rifle over the 3000 fps mark with accuracy, and that was to speed up the twist rate to 1:10. I still have this rifle, load it with the same Nosler ballistic tip bullets, and it still puts meat in the freezer.
Thin Man
Edit: Bullet LENGTH is the key to getting groups out of this caliber, not just the weight. Find the shortest length 85-87 bullet you can locate and give it a try. This should get you the groups you need.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have the same gun. Before you think about selling that model 70 take a look at what there going for. they didnt make but a few of them. I believe 250 with sights and 250 without. Ive been offered a grand for mine and that was 5 years ago. Mine like yours needs 85-87s to shoot well but will shoot moa with that weight of bullet. I think when i bought it new there was a rebate on them and it cost me 200 bucks to my door. Wish now i would have got a couple of them.

[mikeym1a]

I have a 1939 Belding & Mull manual, and it says the twist rate on the 250-3000 is 14".