Sig P229 Kaboom

[robpete]

A buddy of mine sent these pictures to me. This happened yesterday. He said the barrel is free of obstruction and went it went off, it sounded completely normal. No louder or quieter. He loaded some of my bullets....an NOE 160gr RN...over Titegroup. He loads on a 650 with the powder check die, so we're ruling out an over or under charge. No obstruction. What's this leave? Fire out of battery? Stuck firing pin? Who knows.
914039140491405

[freebullet]

Kinda light on details, but maybe case head blow out?

[robpete]

that's pretty much all I got. I haven't seen it in person. The damage is done. Everybody was fine and the gun is salvageable. just curious.

[454PB]

Maybe a range recovered casing with a Glock bulge? It looks like there is a casing stuck in the chamber.

[Frosty Boolit]

I saw my uncles 9mm take similar damage but not as bad when a garbage reload from "the gun show" blew out in the small area at 6 o clock of the breech where there seems to be less support for the casing. Usually accompanied by a spray of gas and brass.

[Harter66]

"oh no it can't fire out of battery , we must have a look at the defective case in the chamber ,it has to be loader error . It simply can't happen any other way"






That was sposed to be sarcasism purple:???:

[w5pv]

Just glad he kept all his fingers and eyes

[robpete]

Just glad he kept all his fingers and eyes

Amen brother

[prsman23]

Yeah. That looks nasty. Lucky man for not sustaining injury. Glad your friend and those around him are safe.

[HNSB]

It forgot it's not a Glock.

[L Ross]

I saw this happen when we first transitioned to semi autos and were using "remanufactured" ammo. After the third set of grips blown off of our new S&W 469's and a few guys getting a little gunshy the range master asked me to investigate knowing that I was a handloader. I pulled a few bullets and found correct powder charges. I checked for high primers and found none. Then I started pushing the bullet hard against the edge of a table in our gun cleaning room. After about a hundred rounds I found one I could push the bullet into the case. After checking several hundred I think I had four that would deep seat when pushed. I partially pulled the bullets with an inertia puller and then seated them back to the correct c.o.l. Then we loaded them into a magazine and let the slide fly to chamber them. All of them deep seated. My Dept. decided to spend the money on Blazers and not purchase any more remanufactured ammo. Deep seated 9m/m drastically increase pressure. I don't remember the data I read from an article where they did pressure testing with 1/16", 1/8", and bullet compressing the powder charge but I do remember the compressed load exceeded proof loads substantially.
These were commercial reloads featuring .355" diameter jacketed bullets. I have never had a cast bullet deep seat but my bullet diameter for 9 m/m is .357" or .358" depending on which pistol.

Duke

[35remington]

"oh no it can't fire out of battery , we must have a look at the defective case in the chamber ,it has to be loader error . It simply can't happen any other way"

Glad you're finally on board Harter! Firing out of battery can't happen with a pull of the trigger. Quite correct.

[HeavyMetal]

After carefully looking at the pictures I am going to make several WAG's, please bear in mind this is a 40 S&W not a 9mm

1 case with media trapped in it, happens when someone adds wax or other shiny maker stuff to walnut shell or corncob media space taken up increases pressure and this one has a blown case head, seen it enough on hotrodded 38 supers back in the day.

2 could be deglocked case's with a weak spot, wish someone would get that junk off the market

3 loads with a Dillon 650 I will suspect a guy doing a lot of shooting using mixed case's rather than deglocked brass, but might be both!

In either case bollit pull is to light allowing a boolit to slide back in the case increasing pressure and blowing out the case head area.

Suggest you visit your friend and check both brass and left over loaded rounds for boolit pull he might be surprised at what the two of you will find when you turn the harsh light of day on his loading technique, LOL!

[TXGunNut]

Somewhat familiar with the 229 and 40, would love to see the case. I think that will tell the tale. My theory about KABOOM's is that two or more conditions occur at the same time, that's why they seldom happen under controlled conditions. Another theory that makes sense is that some guns just blow up, we'll never completely know why. I'm not a fan of the latter.

[seaboltm]

I have seen factory ammunition seat deeper in the case. This is particularly true with a gun that is frequently unloaded and then reloaded. I had a buddy who was paranoid about his service Beretta around his children when he was off duty. He would remove the magazine, empty the chamber, and then add the bullet removed from the chamber back into the magazine. That same bullet got rechambered every day by racking the slide and letting her rip. I just happened to notice one day that the bullet looked very much shorter than the others. It was over.1 inch shorter, almost 1/8". This was a Beretta 96 in 40S&W. Needless to say he changed that practice. I too agree that KB's likely happen because of a "stacking" of factors. I don't buy the BS Glock argument. Any gun can KB, and there are plenty of pictures of all kinds of brands that have.

[Beau Cassidy]

Looks familiar to what mine did once...... Multiple factors can cause this. Good luck with finding the cause.

[TXGunNut]

The Glock action starts to move before the Sig action does, IMHO. The elongated firing pin indents left by Glock 40's lead me to believe this, may have more to do with firing pin springs or other factors. I dunno. The unsupported chamber theory is hard to apply to the 229. I DO know that the 40 S&W is a high-pressure round with a high slide velocity. I don't know if this contributes to the scenario but most of us know that a bullet seated deeply in a 40 S&W dramatically raises pressure, I won't load this cartridge unless I can test it in the gun it will be fired in.
From what I've seen I'd suspect a boolit pushed back into a weak case.

[Bullshop Junior]

That would suck for sure. I would like to know why it happened.

[seaboltm]

If the bullet is pushed back, pressure increases. Velocity of the bullet increases, therefore slide speed increases. If the action begins to open and the case begins to extract due to the higher slide velocity BEFORE chamber pressure has dropped, the case can become deformed or fail and hot gases can be sent from the rear of the chamber. Just sort of thinking it through, I could be way off.

[35remington]

Action can't open before the pressure has dropped, because the gun simply can't unlock until the bullet is gone. Once the bullet leaves, so does the pressure.

Further, if the slide moves faster, so does the bullet. The bullet leaves sooner even if the slide goes faster. That's how automatics of this type work, in a balanced reaction. Slide speed is always proportional to bullet speed and mass, and if the bullet goes faster or slower the slide goes faster or slower. High pressure won't cause the gun to open when the bullet's in the barrel because the gun cannot do so even if it tried to, and due to the fact that the faster bullet is gone sooner as well.

Slide distance traveled is always, always proportional to the ratio of slide weight to bullet weight. The gun cannot unlock until the bullet is gone and pressure is nonexistent.

Remember that this is a locked breech automatic, not a blowback operated pistol.

[robpete]

That would suck for sure. I would like to know why it happened.

Me too. He decided to send it into Sig as is. Not sure if they'll be able to make a determination, but I'll definitely report back with an update.

[DX250]

I will share my suspicions as to what may have contributed. I recently was shooting my Sig p229 in 357 Sig ( NOE 358-128 sizedto .357 BAC lubed propelled by 7.5gr power pistol and a Tula sp primer) and I had a fail to eject, while clearing the gun I saw the brass that was left in the gun, bulged around the web and most pronounced at the feed ramp and and no neck at all just a little bit of the shoulder. Upon a some investigation the gun will fire out of full battery all be it just slightly. I could set off a primed case with the slide 1/16~3/32 out of full lock just enough for the barrel to just start to drop but still locked. I believe what happened in both my and the OP's case was some thing kept the slide slightly back allowing premature unlocking of the slide while under high pressure and in the OP's case rupturing. This finding got me thinking as to the safety of my P229 so I took a look at my other semi autos and found all but one exhibited the same thing including my girlfriend's Glock 32. The only gun that did not show any barrel movement was my custom 1911.

[35remington]

grey, that's not it either. If the gun is "partially in battery" it will stay that way until the bullet is gone.

The key word in your examination is "still locked." If the gun fires locked, it completes the travel of the bullet through the barrel locked. Once the bullet leaves the gun may unlock and not before........not ever.

The gun will not "prematurely unlock under high pressure." It simply cannot drag the gun's barrel out of battery when the locking surfaces are engaging under high shear forces.

Again, if the gun starts the firing cycle locked, it completes it locked. A better understanding of automatic pistol function would help many properly diagnose such events. Unlocking under high pressure ain't in the cards.

[35remington]

What's more probable......that every handgun manufacturer has a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode in this litigious age, that out of battery firing is impossible to prevent despite the usage of locked breech pistols for over 110 years now and they still can't get it right, that an automatic pistol can disengage its lugs and come out of battery despite high shear forces preventing it from doing so, or............something was wrong with the ammunition?

Some time ago Handloader's Digest had an article (referring to gun blowups) entitled "It Isn't Always Handloads..........But That's The Way to Bet!"

Throw in rechambering factory loads and seating bullets deeper, and something wrong with the handload or bullet seating IS the way to bet in the vast majority of these instances. Out of battery firing or unlocking under very high shear forces is not possible.

People want to believe they are not at fault and someone's mechanical device failed......but people are the most fallible thing of all, and when they are involved, human failure is most probable, by far, of the possible scenarios.

[DX250]

I do fully understand the design and function of an auto pistol, as I said the gun was already starting to unlock therefore the normal requirements to unlock the gun were compromised. The cam in the barrel lug was in contact with the locking block in the frame. The barrel was not fully making contact with the locking surface in the slide. The feed ramp was not setting on top pf the locking block preventing the barrel from dropping (unlocking) at the time of firing. I would like to ask how by brass came out of the gun the way it did if the gun was locked until there was no pressure in the barrel? If I can find the brass I will post a picture. I believe it has gone to the scrap yard.

I do believe the root cause of the fte was caused by an over crimped round not allowing it to fully chamber. I was showing how faulty ammo/ excessively dirty gun can add up to a KB.

[ElDorado]

I suggest you and your buddy carefully examine the remaining rounds from that batch for any discrepancies, starting with those discussed - deep seating, bulge, bad crimp, and don't discount an over-charge just because he used a powder check. Those can fail, too, just as most mechanical devices can. I would take them all apart and check everything.

I'm glad he's OK.

[35remington]

grey, what you're missing is that the actual pull on the barrel to force the gun out of battery......absent gravity, which is what you see working when the gun is empty and is irrelevant to this discussion.......does not occur until the bullet is gone. The gun is specifically timed so disengagement occurs after the bullet is gone. A little out of battery matters not one bit.

Further, positing that the gun unlocks easily, or at all, when thousands of pounds of pressure are ensuring the shear forces holding slide and barrel in battery when the bullet is in the barrel are very high is not very logical. The barrel and slide are very, very actively resisting disengagement. And the barrel won't come out of battery when it is in such a state given it was in battery to begin with. If you believe in such a thing then your understanding of how pistols of this sort work is indeed incomplete.

If the pistol starts the firing cycle locked, it completes it locked until the bullet is gone. Can't happen any other way.

In your examination of how your pistol functioned, you admitted that the gun still had substantial locking engagement if the trigger drops the firing pin. That's the only way the gun can or will fire with a pull of the trigger. That's a gracious plenty to prevent unlocking while the bullet was in the barrel given the very high forces holding barrel and slide together.

Unlocking under such conditions is impossible.

[DX250]

35 I will ask you to reread my last and respond accordingly. I understand the specifics of the timing, as stated in my situation the at the point of firing the timing is not starting from 0 it is already in process. The slide is slightly back and the barrel is not fully locked, gravity has nothing to do with it, bolt thrust is overcoming the sheer force on the slide surfaces and in my situation because the lower locking lug (ie the feed ramp resting on the locking block) is not locked. The sheer forces are not what keeps the gun locked, the lower locking lug that prevents the gun unlocking.

A locked breach pistol should not be capable of unlocking with pressure in the barrel under normal circumstances, that is not what we are talking here just the opposite. We are talking exact right circumstances with something preventing the gun from fully locking all locking surfaces causing timing problems.

I just ask that everyone make sure their loading practices and QC is sound to keep bad ammo out of guns and in bullet pullers.

[dtknowles]

Somewhat familiar with the 229 and 40, would love to see the case. I think that will tell the tale. ............Another theory that makes sense is that some guns just blow up, we'll never completely know why. I'm not a fan of the latter.

I don't buy the "some guns just blow up, we'll never completely know why." theory, the reason may elude us but the reason is there to be found. I to would like to see the case and I would check the disconnector. I had a Kaboom in my HighPoint carbine due to "fired out of battery" no damage to the gun or shooter but the case head split for 270 degrees, barely attached. Some disconnectors can get stuck and some are not tuned to great enough precision.

Tim

Tim

[W.R.Buchanan]

Once again 35 Rem has the correct take on "out of battery firing". WE discussed this just last week in the Glock Kaboooom thread.

There is a few other factors preventing this. One is the firing pin safety which most guns now have. Glocks will not allow the firing pin to travel forward when the slide is as little as .020-.030 off completely closed. the gun is still locked up at this point anyway and remains so until the slide has traveled back at least .100 from completely closed. That is the point that the barrel lug drops below the slide opening and the gun is officially "out of battery."

I do not know for sure, but would be willing to bet, that the Sig has the same kind of safeties engineered into it.

The most probable cause of this blow up is either a bullet push back, caused by either a poor crimp or repeated chambering of the same round,,, or a bad case. By " Bad Case," I mean one that has been reloaded too many times, previously severely bulged and not throw away, or just blind luck of having a marginal case re-index itself into a previously fired position thus subjecting the same weakened portion of the case to another hit.

Quit with this "Out of Battery" argument. It just isn't happening.

The crimp on a .40 S&W case should be .417-.418. If it is more than this the bullet is not crimped properly and it will move.

Also for those who don't think that crimping is necessary and that case neck tension is enough to hold the boolit in position, Flatly put,,, You are wrong ! , and eventually it will catch up to you. If crimps were not necessary, then why is it that every single Factory Loaded Round made,,, is crimped?

Also simply put,,,The .40 S&W is the worst possible round to use when testing your theory.

Randy

[35remington]

grey, I thought read your last post and responded appropriately, addressing each point completely. Nevertheless, I'll try again.

The main point is you supposition is impossible. I'll use the comments in your last post to make my point.

"The slide is slightly back and the barrel is not fully locked,....."

What needs to be understood is the amount of locking engagement that is present when your gun allows you to drop the firing pin with a pull of the trigger is vastly ample to allow the gun to stay locked until the bullet exits the barrel. Most of the engagement is still there, and it's that way for a reason.

" the timing is not starting from 0 it is already in process."

This literally does not matter as long as the gun is fired with a pull of the trigger. Remember that the gun unlocks AFTER the bullet is gone in normal operation, and even if the gun has a little running start on backward slide motion when the trigger is pulled because the barrel is only mostly in battery, the gun is timed such that the bullet is out of the barrel most likely, or very nearly out of the barrel. The gun is set up to fire with a pull of the trigger only when it is safe to do so, and when ample locking engagement exists to allow safe transit of the bullet out of the gun with no issues with case blowout.

The pressure in the barrel is low when the bullet is at the end of the barrel because the peak of pressure is when the bullet is very near or still coming out of the case when the gun is fired. Even if the gun could unlock when the bullet is at this point, residual pressure is so low it is incapable of blowing out the case in any fashion. The case would be very little, if any, out of the chamber, and the brass likely would not even bulge, much less blow out.

What you have yet to explain is how the gun can tug the barrel out of battery when it's pressurized.

"bolt thrust is overcoming the sheer (sic) force on the slide surfaces......."

No, bolt thrust, which is the backward movement of the cartridge against the breechface driving the slide backward, is causing the shear forces on the locking surfaces of the gun, in combination with the bullet and the pressure behind it driving the barrel forward . Bolt thrust has nothing to do with unlocking the gun. Only keeping it locked. Once bolt thrust is gone, the gun may unlock, and not before.

I'll let you try to guess what takes the barrel out of battery. It's not bolt thrust. The forces keeping the barrel in battery when fired are greatly higher than the ability of the pistol to take the barrel out of battery when it is in this pressurized state. That's the great stumbling block for your theory, but there are others as well.

"The sheer forces are not what keeps the gun locked, the lower locking lug that prevents the gun unlocking."

It is at this point the evidence that you don't know how the pistol works becomes pretty clear. The pistol has no lower locking lug because there's nothing to lock to. The bottom of the slide is open, and the movement of the barrel and slide is away from the slide stop pin, which isn't connected to the slide anyway. It is impossible for the bottom of the barrel to lock slide and barrel together because there is no place they contact on the bottom of the barrel.

There is one place where barrel and slide locking occurs, and it isn't the bottom.

The shear forces mentioned are what keeps the gun locked, and the locking surfaces are the top of the barrel and the front of the ejection port on the slide. They lock nowhere else because they contact nowhere else when the gun is fired.

The "perfect circumstances" for the barrel to unlock while the pressure is high do not and will never exist when the trigger is pulled. You proved that better than I could by noting the gun will not fire when the locking surfaces (which are the top of the barrel and ejection port in the slide and nowhere else) are not engaged. It will only fire when the locking surfaces have adequate engagement and not at all when they do not have adequate engagement. .

If the gun is only a little out of battery and the trigger falls, the locking engagement is adequate because the locking surfaces have greatly adequate engagement........still. Reread the above for the "why." Remember that the barrel is impossible to pull out of engagement when pressure is high, and the timing makes it impossible for the gun to even attempt to pull the barrel out of engagement when the pressure is high.

Even if it has your "running start" which isn't much and still falls short of explaining a blowout. You'd still have to explain how it can pull it out of engagement when the shear forces are high, and you haven't attempted to do that.

It won't fire when the engagement is too little or nonexistent because:

It has a firing pin block that prevents the gun from firing when it is too far out of battery, AND

The striker is out of reach of the sear when the slide is a certain distance back. This last feature does not require the proper function of the gun to work to prevent out of battery firing.......it will prevent firing even if the firing pin block fails.

I think that covered pretty much everything.

There is always an inverse correlation between the belief in case blowouts due to "out of battery" or "early unlocking" and knowledge of how pistols work. In other words, the less you know about how pistols work, the more you believe in "out of battery firing" or "early unlocking."

I have yet to find an exception to this in these discussions.

[35remington]

W.R., thanks for the corroboration. It is much appreciated. You posted just before I did and I'm rehashing some of the points you went over for the reason I didn't see your response, but that's what happens on forums sometimes.

My interest is in diagnosing events correctly, and that is best done when events are properly accounted for. Then the more likely causes can be more fully examined.

The "out of battery" and "early unlocking" arguments are dead and always have been, and it takes a lot of bandwidth to refute them...........but good information is sometimes worth the effort of explanation.

[W.R.Buchanan]

And they just keep a comin' !!! Mainly because people dont' really understand how the guns work. [smilie=b:

Randy

[MtGun44]

Double charge, NOT out of battery - that is almost impossible, even though folks continue
to claim it. Everyone is always looking for some other reason, but get a good mirror
and take a look.

Stop wasting time on the gun and start studying your reloading process to stop putting
two charges in the case. Yes, I DO understand what the powder check die is SUPPOSED to
do, and somehow it failed. Spend time figuring out HOW. I've seen many of these and
watched folks spin their wheels for various periods before they buckled down and worked
on the root cause - somehow the process of putting powder in the case went wrong. Wrong
powder, wrong setting are possible but the overwhelming majority are just two times as much
as you wanted. I have done this myself - ONCE about 32 years ago and still work VERY hard
to make sure it never happens again.

I know of ONE out of battery firing, loading a .44 Automag by dropping a round in the chamber
and dropping the bolt. Firing pin spring was failed and when the extractor slammed into a stationary
cartridge rim THAT COULD NOT MOVE - unlike a round in the magazine - the firing pin inertially fired
the primer. Hammer can never reach the firing pin until locked.

How do I know that one was not a double charge? Because the normal charge of H110 totatlly
filled the case, slightly compressed. Destroyed the gun. By the way - loading that way is STUPID.
I didn't know it at the time.


Bill

[Char-Gar]

When you look at the damaged pistol and weight all the possibilities, the odds on favorite for the cause is an overcharge of powder. Yea, yea, I know it didn't happen, but most likely it did. The more moving parts you put in a machine, the more attention is needed to the process and you can take it from there.

[Fluxed]

Lack of case inspection may be the culprit here.
Its easy to grab up a bunch of "range" brass, clean up and think its 100% ready to load. But you get one case that's not got much (if any) bullet grip and have the bullet jam back into the case when shooting and you might get the result we're talking about here.

I'm loading lots of .45 on a single stage press, so feel each case as I size and expand. On one batch of much fired brass, I'm seeing one out of a hundred, sometimes less, sometimes more, that can't be sized to hold a bullet. I'm culling them out as I go. If I was loading on a progressive, I'd be loading and shooting them. Sooner or later this will catch up to you. And it comes sooner with unknown brass that is not inspected piece by piece.

Loading brass that you've picked up off the ground, or bought from someone else who has picked it up, requires inspection beyond just seeing that its clean and shiny.

[35remington]

What I'm distinguishing is that these users all to a man claim out of battery firing with a pull of the trigger or that the gun came unlocked during firing. Neither event is almost impossible. Both events are completely impossible.

[35remington]

On those guns that lack a slide stop crosspin, a locking block is substituted.

"Aha!" says some. "It locks the barrel when it is fired!" Some here seem to be laboring under that misconception.

No. It has nothing to do with holding the barrel in battery when it is fired. Only the lugs on the front of the chamber and the cutout for the ejection port in the slide do that. If you don't know what it does, the "how" of how pistols function really has eluded you.

[DX250]

I have just 3 responses.

1) My thoughts on the subject are based on the engineer that I consulted on the subject after my near KB. His background is a Masters in Mechanical engineering and a bachelor's in Fluid Mechanics from Georgia Tech and has extensive experience in the firearms design industry.

2) As stated before bad ammo IS the root cause of the KB period, no questions asked.

3) I will put this out there again, I am not even asking for a posted answer just think about it with an open mind, I would like to ask how by brass came out of the gun the way it did if the gun was locked until there was no pressure in the barrel?

I am done.

I just ask that everyone cast, load and, shoot with the highest safty standards in mind also, do not shoot malfunctioning firearm.

[35remington]

grey, your engineer is quite mistaken if those are his assertions you are repeating. Bring him by here to get him up to speed on how pistols really work. He doesn't have a clue.

Bring your brass by and show it to us with a picture. If there is no brass, your recollection is probably flawed. Gun can't unlock until the pressure is gone.

[BNE]

I saw this happen when we first transitioned to semi autos and were using "remanufactured" ammo. After the third set of grips blown off of our new S&W 469's and a few guys getting a little gunshy the range master asked me to investigate knowing that I was a handloader. I pulled a few bullets and found correct powder charges. I checked for high primers and found none. Then I started pushing the bullet hard against the edge of a table in our gun cleaning room. After about a hundred rounds I found one I could push the bullet into the case. After checking several hundred I think I had four that would deep seat when pushed. I partially pulled the bullets with an inertia puller and then seated them back to the correct c.o.l. Then we loaded them into a magazine and let the slide fly to chamber them. All of them deep seated. My Dept. decided to spend the money on Blazers and not purchase any more remanufactured ammo. Deep seated 9m/m drastically increase pressure. I don't remember the data I read from an article where they did pressure testing with 1/16", 1/8", and bullet compressing the powder charge but I do remember the compressed load exceeded proof loads substantially.
These were commercial reloads featuring .355" diameter jacketed bullets. I have never had a cast bullet deep seat but my bullet diameter for 9 m/m is .357" or .358" depending on which pistol.

Duke

Good Explanation. Thanks

[seaboltm]

Action can't open before the pressure has dropped, because the gun simply can't unlock until the bullet is gone. Once the bullet leaves, so does the pressure.

Further, if the slide moves faster, so does the bullet. The bullet leaves sooner even if the slide goes faster. That's how automatics of this type work, in a balanced reaction. Slide speed is always proportional to bullet speed and mass, and if the bullet goes faster or slower the slide goes faster or slower. High pressure won't cause the gun to open when the bullet's in the barrel because the gun cannot do so even if it tried to, and due to the fact that the faster bullet is gone sooner as well.

Slide distance traveled is always, always proportional to the ratio of slide weight to bullet weight. The gun cannot unlock until the bullet is gone and pressure is nonexistent.

Remember that this is a locked breech automatic, not a blowback operated pistol.

I was with you until you said bullet weight is always proportional to slide weight. Although that is true, you are leaving out bullet velocity versus slide velocity. It is a momentum issue, and you left out velocity. I know the 45 ACP/castboolits crowd think velocity is velocity is over rated, but its not. Bullet velocity matters. A lot.

[MtGun44]

RE: #42: Holes matter. Bigger holes matter more than smaller holes. Deeper holes matter
more than shallow holes. If your 9mm makes bigger and deeper holes, that is good. If not,
it isn't so good. .45 ACP makes big and deep holes with non-expanding boolits, and bigger
and a bit less deep holes with expanding bullets and boolits.

Pushed in boolit is a possibility, the brass fails in the unsupported feed ramp area, which is
often claimed to not exist. Still think double charge is #1 suspect.

Agree with post #39 item 2) - it is an ammo issue.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

I am not an engineer now did I sleep at the Holiday Inn Expess last night, but I am a reloader of considerable experience with handgun ammo. I am talking more than a half century and a half million or more rounds of ammo. I have also been awake and paying attention to what is going on around me with other shooters and reloaders.

Blown up handguns were very very rare...until..about 15 to 20 years ago and they began to show up with ever increasing frequency. We have had several of them on our local range.

Everytime one happens, I make an inquire about the ammo. Without exception the ammo was either "baggy brand" bought at a gunshow or loaded by the shooter or a friend on some progressive press.

So I have to ask myself, "Why is something that was once so rare, become something now so common?". After all the talk about gun design has settled, the one common fact that remains is the advent and wide spread use of the progressive reloader.

Occam's Razor would seem to apply here and help me understand that the most likely explanation for the kaboom in question is an over charged round. Does it prove that was the cause? No, but it does offer a strong priority of cause. Dismissing the possibility of an overcharge out of hand only leads down rabbit trails and ignore the most likely cause.

[MtGun44]

+1 Char-Gar. Well said.

Too much spinning wheels looking for imaginary ghosts in the gun. The issue is in the ammo, spend your research time there.

Once again, Occam's Razor says look for human error. Sad to say, most problems are people not doing what they meant to, or
not knowing the proper thing to do.

Bill

[robpete]

the one common fact that remains is the advent and wide spread use of the progressive reloader.

Lots of truth here. We are only human and can never be too cautious. I've learned a lot from this a thread and have taken a lot of precaution(since starting this thread) to not blow up one of my own guns. I personally load on a 550. I bought an LED light kit that goes into the center hole of the tool head. I also bought a Redding G-RX base sizing die for 40S&W(I load a lot of pickup). I figure if we're not careful, this can happen to any one of us.

Merry Christmas everybody

[Harter66]

What if I told you I had a 9mm load that appeared otherwise safe except that the slide locked back on a full magazine ? I once picked up some 9x19 that looked like a pregnant guppy ,my best guess is that it went through a Markarov 9x18. I have to wonder why none of those blew out.......
I would think either of those would meet the over load/head space/deep seat requirements. How fast does the slide have to be going to hit the lock back before the next round trips the slide release? Is the post 82' BHP clone w/mag disconect different somehow?

[Char-Gar]

+1 Char-Gar. Well said.

Too much spinning wheels looking for imaginary ghosts in the gun. The issue is in the ammo, spend your research time there.

Once again, Occam's Razor says look for human error. Sad to say, most problems are people not doing what they meant to, or
not knowing the proper thing to do.

Bill

There is more than one razor: Hanlon's Razor: ``Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity''.

[Cadillo]

Maybe a range recovered casing with a Glock bulge? It looks like there is a casing stuck in the chamber.

Exactly what I was going to suggest!

[Newtire]

I know of ONE out of battery firing, loading a .44 Automag by dropping a round in the chamber
and dropping the bolt. Firing pin spring was failed and when the extractor slammed into a stationary
cartridge rim THAT COULD NOT MOVE - unlike a round in the magazine - the firing pin inertially fired
the primer. Hammer can never reach the firing pin until locked.




BillNot to divert the thread but this same thing mentioned in quotes happened to me on a M11 Remington shotgun. It would make like a pom-pom gun with heavier loads. A firing pin return spring fixed that problem. I like the "keep an open mind" approach. Everyone learns something that way.

[35remington]

seabolt, I left nothing out. Both velocity and bullet weight were mentioned as factors in slide speed.

"Slide speed is always proportional to bullet speed and mass,......" Time to reread that post again and more closely this time. Velocity was most assuredly not left out.

[MtGun44]

Huh ????

"How fast does the slide have to be going to hit the lock back before the next round trips the slide release?"


You need to study up on how the gun works. The next round does NOT trip the slide release. The slide stop is
lifted by the magazine follower when the mag is empty. Slide locks can bounce up or can be bumped up
by the shooter's finger.

Bill

[NSP64]

My vote is for Bullet set back.

I have never had a handgun Kaboooom(knock on wood)

I used to load on a progressive press years ago, and had no "feel" when reloading.

I did Kaboom a rifle(my fault- untrimmed/too long case).

[robpete]

I think the case will tell a tale. Hopefully Sig returns it when they send the gun back. My gut is telling me a weak case due to base bulge. We both shoot the same brass, picked up from the same club. I checked some off my brass yesterday and quite a bit of it is bloated.....

[Psypher]

I'm with others in noticing a couple of important blow-out things in those photos.

Casing stuck DEEP into the chamber, so much so that the extractor wouldn't have hold any longer.
Extractor blown out.
Grips blown out on both sides, right side worse than the left.
Parts from the right side of the shooter seem to be slightly shifted to the right of the frame. Could be the photo though.

If the casing went full go into the chamber bypassing the extractor this could be a big part of the problem as it could have been improperly resized or it could be the wrong casing all together. However, this very well could be a direct result of the blow-out and without seeing what that brassy-colored object is in the chamber it's tough for anyone to tell.

If that brassy-colored object is a casing that's been stripped of the foot then it could be any number of things. Overused casing, improperly resized casing (too far or not far enough), forward frozen firing pin resulting in an out of battery discharge (aka slam fire), or a cracked casing picked up at the range that was missed during visual inspection, bullet seating depth, powder charge for that particular grain weight. Heck, there could be a lot more than what I've noted.

I've had a few improperly sized cases hit my Lone Wolf barrel in my Glock and they instantly jam my gun, but it's close enough that just a few microns of movement forward would result in an in-battery scenario that would lead to a kaboom. When you're talking a hammered Sig Sauer, you then have a different problem as it involves a hammer forcing the firing pin forward, which might be enough for an out of battery discharge on an improperly sized casing depending on the throw of the firing pin.

[35remington]

A Sig with a hammer won't fire out of battery with a pull of the trigger either. When out battery the hammer will hit the back of the slide instead of the firing pin, just like a 1911 will. The firing pin is still out of reach when the gun is out of battery, hammer present or not.

As mentioned, out of battery firing with a pull of the trigger is impossible. How the case is sized has no effect. When the gun is out of battery, for whatever reason, the firing pin will not fall with a pull of the trigger.

[oger]

Don't use an unreliable press with an automatic powder drop unless a double charge is not possible for you not to see. I have been using that rule since I double charged a 45 while playing with a press with a really inconsistent priming system.