Cast the new alternative to .22LR

[Jon]

I'm glad I got into casting a few years ago.

It's pretty sad that I can reload .45ACP for about the same price as 22LR these days. I just picked up 1000rds of Winchester 22LR, and it was $50.

A primer and 3gr of Bullseye is about the same per 1000 rounds. Granted there is work involved, but who would have thought it.

Musings for the morning.

[Bohica793]

Not sure I can get my 45 to cycle on only 3 grains, but I have commented for months that i can cast and load 38s for the same if not less than 22s.

[ShooterAZ]

I bought a bunch of Mini Mags before the "crisis". I have been sharing with a few needy friends, and shooting them sparingly. My "new" .22 is the RCBS 22-055-SP loaded with 3.5 grains of Titegroup in the .223 Remington. Like it says on the bottle "a little goes a long way". This is a super accurate load in my T/C Contender, and very enjoyable to shoot.

[DeanWinchester]

I've been shooting 9mm for the same price as 22 for better than year. It's sad but I'd rather shoot 9mm anyway so...

I tried for years to tell people about this hobby and what the future would hold for ammo buyers. No one listened. Now I all but ignore their cries of woe.

[lancem]

Don't know that much has changed all in all, 20+ years ago I remember making the comparison between 22's and cast loaded 38's. It's always been cheaper to reload as long as you count your time as hobby time.

[Garyshome]

An Air rifle is also a low cost alternative to 22lr. I picked one up for the grand kids [It stays at our house] and it will do most everything [limited range] that a 22 will do for A LOT less $$$$$.

[Dusty Bannister]

Cheap shooting, if you already have the air rifle. Not sure how cheap if you have to factor that cost into it. I favor being able to down load a center fire and use cast bullets. Especially, if you already have the molds, or can get the Lee 22 Bator. I also shoot buck shot, sized and tumble lubed for short range light loads. Probably hijacking talking about air guns in this thread. Dusty

[Jon]

It's ok, I've been thinking about airguns lately. I have an old Crossman, that was purchased when I was 13. There are much better ones out there now, that don't require 10 pumps, and will actually put the pellet on target. At some point high powered air rifles may be more common over here than they are in europe.

Lewis and Clarke had a nice one. It's funny how things come back around after awhile.

[dudel]

I've been doing .22 pellets loaded in a 22 Hornet case with no powder. Works surprisingly well. No hearing protection needed.

I put up what I thought was a fair stash of 22LR before the ruckus. Now I'm not sure it was enough. Supplies in Texas seem to be much better than in North Georgia. May take the nephew out this weekend (to shoot!).

[Sgtonory]

Shot 500 rounds in my new Ruger Gp100 for less than i can buy .22 these days if you can find it. I wont shoot my supply of .22 till i can find more.

[sirgknight]

An Air rifle is also a low cost alternative to 22lr. I picked one up for the grand kids [It stays at our house] and it will do most everything [limited range] that a 22 will do for A LOT less $$$$$.

It would be interesting to know how much sales have increased for air rifles since the .22 rip off. I have been seriously considering purchasing the Umarex Surge XT. It's a .177 caliber that shoots 1200 fps and comes with a 4X32 scope and costs just a little over $100. Not bad....and ammo would be very cheap compared to the .22.

[CHX77]

"Cast the new alternative to .22LR"? It was for me this fall. Not counting my time, .38 special cast loads cost less than .22lr. Lately I've been finding .22lr for around 5 cents per round, so things are getting better. I also rebuilt my old Crosman 1400 this year and picked up a new Crosman Nitro Venom, both .22 caliber. Very cheap to shoot and I can shoot them at my semi-suburban home. Our nearest outdoor range isn't kept open in the winter.

[Boolseye]

My "new" .22 is the RCBS 22-055-SP loaded with 3.5 grains of Titegroup in the .223 Remington. Like it says on the bottle "a little goes a long way". This is a super accurate load in my T/C Contender, and very enjoyable to shoot.
not to mention that it has the terminal ballistics of a .22 mag!

[Boolseye]

At some point high powered air rifles may be more common over here than they are in europe.
Nothing against airguns, but there's a plug for the new .357 crosman on youtube–the guy getting all worked up about a hi-tech rifle with the ballistics of a .38 special target wadcutter. Have to chuckle a bit.

[FLHTC]

Air guns are illegal to hunt with in my state. I own one that is scoped and it's used for backyard work but my center fire 22s and 257s go afield with cast loads and out shine the 22lr any day. I think we're seeing the end of an era in small game rifles. The 22lr was the "go to" rifle for a couple generations but I believe that has come to pass.

[jonas302]

I don't know there is not much overhead cost on paying for 22s
That said I would much rather cast and load but not for cost savings its just not there for me a least

[EMC45]

Honestly cast centerfire has been my rimfire alternative for a few years now. I have been able to reload .32 S&W-L for a lot cheaper than .22s for years now.

[Harter66]

I just tallied it up this morning , 3.5 Unique and 55gr in the 222 I'm picking up next week comes out $40/1000 . The 7RWH (7x6.8 Rem) shoots about the same w/a 130. 00B for the 30s and 0000 for 9 and 38.At $50 /1000 I get hobby time and I'm 10 bucks ahead.

[Digital Dan]

Air guns are illegal to hunt with in my state. I own one that is scoped and it's used for backyard work but my center fire 22s and 257s go afield with cast loads and out shine the 22lr any day. I think we're seeing the end of an era in small game rifles. The 22lr was the "go to" rifle for a couple generations but I believe that has come to pass.

Couple of generations? Smith & Wesson put the .22RF into production in 1857.

It won't be going away in our lifetimes.

[bedbugbilly]

What surprises me is being in a gun shop and watching folks buy 22s. Yea, I know . . . every kid (young or old) should have one and have the experience. I started out with my Dad's 1915 Stevens Favorite when you could buy a box of 22s for 50 cents - $5.00 / brick of 500. I think it's a shame that things are the way they are and I'm surprised that the 22s - rifles/pistols still seem to sell so well with the shortage of ammo. I guess a good air gun is a decent alternative to get kids started out and there are some nice ones out there. I'm in MI and AZ - different times of the year - and 22s are almost impossible to find. The CF seems to be coming back on the shelves of my LGS in MI but the prices are still high. I have about 1K of 22s and I just hate to shoot them as I don't know when I'll be able to find more and not get raped on the price at the same time. I have several rifles and four pistols that just "sit" as there isn't ammo to be found to feed them. I'm reloading 38s and 9mm and to me, that's a cheap alternative - I've got the brass, primers, powder and cast my own - and can also have the enjoyment of loading them in leisure time.

Last winter, I stopped at a local gun shop in Prescott, AZ and discovered they had gotten a shipment of CCI 22 LR in. I asked about them and was told I was limited to two boxes (100 count each) - when I asked him the price - $13.95 a box. No thank you. I'm to the point I'm thinking about just selling some of my 22s and sticking to the CF reloading.

[35remington]

Yeah, I cast too, and have a 22 K Hornet that will generate 22 long rifle velocities with a mere 1.7 grains Titegroup and a 225438 that has the gascheck shank reamed off so I can shoot cheaper. Or my 25-20 with the RCBS 85-CM and 3 grains Bullseye for about 1080 fps and relatively low noise and noticeably better killing power than a 22 long rifle hollowpoint.

As long as I blind myself to the idea that my time is worth something and drop the idea of accounting for any of my other costs of reloading I tell myself I produce them pretty cheap. But it's more important to note........I'm still shooting!

As to the idea that the 22 long rifle's time has passed - no way, no how. There's way too many shooters that don't handload who rely on the .22 for most of their shooting for it to be obsoleted by yet another panic buying spree and a relatively few guys who both handload AND cast bullets. Ain't gonna happen.

Besides, they were offering the new Ruger American Rimfires at a local store for 249 with an admittedly cheapo but still usable scope mounted and I couldn't pass that up. Now I got more than enough .22's on hand, and it's time to shoot it.

Rumors of the .22's demise are most certainly overstated. Most shooters have nothing else for cheap recreation.

Just be glad you have a choice right now as a bullet caster.....but at the same time you needed to be one of those (like me) who has more than enough primers and powder on hand. Shortages affect more than just the .22 long rifle shooters. Casters and handloaders than don't plan ahead have been caught short, too.

[MT Gianni]

I have shot 32 long for the last 4 years for near the same price as 22 lr [$39 per K]. With todays' 22 lr prices it gets a lot better. Then there is 223 @ 22 lr velocities for 7-8 cents each with commercial gc and 3 cents less for aluminum home made ones.

[Eddie2002]

Been shooting a 100 grain cast bullet over 5 grains of Bullseye or Greendot in my 06. Primers cost me .04 a piece and the powder another penny. The brass is range pickups and resized 270 which makes it pretty much free. Still can't get .22 ammo for under .08 a round even in bricks so I'm ahead of the game except for my time.

[dromia]

My 22rf centre fire substitute is the 310 Cadet.

3 gns of fast pistol powder and a 120 gn boolit.

[wallenba]

I was wondering a while back if some enterprizing fellow could make an equivalent 22LR case with a primer pocket. I could shoot them in my 22LR Contender, as it has a center-fire pin in the reciever .

[Bullshop Junior]

I was wondering a while back if some enterprizing fellow could make an equivalent 22LR case with a primer pocket. I could shoot them in my 22LR Contender, as it has a center-fire pin in the reciever .

It would be rather difficult since the brass is so thin, it would crack after few shots, and the boolit would need special molds, and would be difficult to lube.

Look into the 22 CCM. My dad had several, including one on a contender. Its basically a 22 mag center fire. The 22 CCM is slightly bigger around but in the contender we still shot 22 mag fine. I am planning on trying to build one on a Savage 93 once I get the money to get a reamer made, and the bolt face off of the center fire savage rifles.

[Bullshop Junior]

I have shot 32 long for the last 4 years for near the same price as 22 lr [$39 per K]. With todays' 22 lr prices it gets a lot better. Then there is 223 @ 22 lr velocities for 7-8 cents each with commercial gc and 3 cents less for aluminum home made ones.

you shouldn't need a gas check at that low of a velocity....

[Bullshop Junior]

I have shot 32 long for the last 4 years for near the same price as 22 lr [$39 per K]. With todays' 22 lr prices it gets a lot better. Then there is 223 @ 22 lr velocities for 7-8 cents each with commercial gc and 3 cents less for aluminum home made ones.

you shouldn't need a gas check at that low of a velocity....

[Old Dawg]

It would be interesting to know what the manufacturers charge for .22 LR. Are the recent high prices originating at their end or farther along in the supply chain.?

[Ghost101]

Many years ago I was working in a special effects shop in one of the studios and they needed a handful of rimfire blanks to be made up for a shot. Don't remember the caliber or even the rifle. I took the head of a small nail to clean out the inside of the rim. Then took a razor blade to scrap off the white tips of some matches. Added a little amount of water if memory serves me an made a paste. With the nail I packed the rim with this mixture. Then loaded Black powder over it with a wad. A Blank load, as that is the only kind that we would need.
Seems if you really are worried about .22 LR ammo you could take a lot of your free time an do the same with a boolit. I mean that's what this is about, making our own ammo right. I know we have some real brains here that could come up with a much better way to do this. Cost effective, more then likely not. Time consuming, you bet. But if or when the time comes that there are no more .22's to be bought, then we should know how to replace what they will not give us..
Just saying

Ghost101

[JSH]

The 22CCM has come to my mind as well. Brass was alaways the issue with it.
A jet or hornet in a rifle seems to me to be the way to go. But in some states as noted above no air guns and some are no center fire.
I myself have really considered selling all but a select few of my 22rf guns and ammo they like.
I could come out way ahead of my initial investment and stock up on primer and powder along with a 22, or 25 rifle to take the ace of the RF stuff.
I have laid off of much of my RF shooting. So why set on it and have the over head? I could make no more than 3-4 phone calls and sell all of what I consider junk surplus plinking ammo. And one phone call to sell any match ammo.
It is a sad day when I think of what the 22 rf has come too.
Jeff

[FLHTC]

Couple of generations? Smith & Wesson put the .22RF into production in 1857.

It won't be going away in our lifetimes.

Of course a couple of generations. My grandfather was born in 1882 and my father in 1920. That's only two generations back for me.

[ShooterAZ]

The problem with 22 Hornet and Jet is brass. The brass is thin and case life is relatively short, and it's expensive. 223 Remington on the other hand is plentiful and case life with cast loads is pretty darn good. You'd be amazed at how many RCBS 22-055 SP boolits you can get from just a few pounds of alloy. This is why this is my new 22.

[felix]

I have shot 32 long for the last 4 years for near the same price as 22 lr [$39 per K]. With todays' 22 lr prices it gets a lot better. Then there is 223 @ 22 lr velocities for 7-8 cents each with commercial gc and 3 cents less for aluminum home made ones.

Yep, you might consider a switch barrel rifle, starting with your 223 caliber. The other barrel would be for your 32 caliber. The bolt face would be the same. ... felix

[fredj338]

Yep, at todays cost, not fair using primers I bought 10yrs ago, my 45acp cost come in right around 4.5c each or $4.50/100. Assuming I cam scrounging lead for free. Yep, cheaper than I can shoot 22lr.

[dtknowles]

There is no alternative for 22 RF. Nothing else will work in my Anschutz Exemplar, Ruger MKII, 10-22, Single Six, or my Wather P22. Yes, I can shoot .22 hornet and 9 mm cheaper but I can't shoot some of my favorite firearms and the centerfire rounds are a lot more work.

Tim

[Outpost75]

Honestly cast centerfire has been my rimfire alternative for a few years now. I have been able to reload .32 S&W-L for a lot cheaper than .22s for years now.

+1 on .32 S&W Long as a small game gun. John Taylor has built several "American Rook Rifles" for me chambered in .32 S&W Long and they are as quiet and accurate as a .22 LR, but much more effective, with less meat destruction than a .22 LR high speed hollowpoint or .22 WMR.

9148491485

[Bullshop Junior]

There is no alternative for 22 RF. Nothing else will work in my Anschutz Exemplar, Ruger MKII, 10-22, Single Six, or my Wather P22. Yes, I can shoot .22 hornet and 9 mm cheaper but I can't shoot some of my favorite firearms and the centerfire rounds are a lot more work.

Tim

Wrong. The 10/22 and the single six can be converted to centerfire.

[Bullshop Junior]

The 22CCM has come to my mind as well. Brass was alaways the issue with it.

Actually brass is available. Scroader makee some from 22 Hornet bras, and although spendy, it last forever. Fiotchi also makes 22 velodog ammunition witch uses the same case.

[dtknowles]

Wrong. The 10/22 and the single six can be converted to centerfire.

Yeah, maybe for more than the cost of a comparable replacement gun and then I still have to reload more ammo. I need range time not more time in the reloading room. I shoot better when I practice more not when I reload more.

Tim

[Bullshop Junior]

Ive seen two of the 10/22 rifles converted to center fire...one was made to 25 ACP, and the other 32 ACP

[35remington]

Not to belabor the point, but in cost comparisons we leave way too much out. Cost of equipment to make the hand loads, cost of electricity, cost of propane to melt the lead, cost of moulds, etc.

Nothing is as cheap as we say it is. It's human nature to understate the real cost of production, and we do it here all the time.

So be it, I guess.

[lancem]

Not to belabor the point, but in cost comparisons we leave way too much out. Cost of equipment to make the hand loads, cost of electricity, cost of propane to melt the lead, cost of moulds, etc.

Nothing is as cheap as we say it is. It's human nature to understate the real cost of production, and we do it here all the time.

So be it, I guess.

Equipment costs spread over 30+ years makes that pretty much a non issue, electricity and propane costs are very small, at least in my case to cast and load a lot. I feel even if I include these costs and spread them over the 10's of thousands of rounds I've reloaded I'm still loading for less than I can buy.

[Bullshop Junior]

if you include equipment cost, every time you pull that handle, the PPR goes down.

[Digital Dan]

Was just looking at Gunbot.com and amongst the .22 LR ammo that was in stock, the prices ranged from .12-.60 per round with an average probably in the high teens. It makes the thought of casting for small bore CF guns quite a bit more appealing.

FWIW, I agree that all incurred costs (read: lead, powder, primers, electricity/gas, brass) for casting and loading need to be amortized to have a realistic comparison but from where I sit the costs of equipment is difficult if not impossible to factor into that. For a fellow that just bought all the equipment it is a practical metric, but for someone like myself that has been cranking the same press etc for 40 years???? I'm not inclined to consider such things. Neither would the IRS if I was doing it commercially. Depreciation has come and gone for nearly all of it...in fact my Rockchucker press is probably worth about 3 times what I paid for it. It doesn't mean I get to subtract production costs.

Atop all of that, I've not seen many .22 rifles that can compete with quality CF reloads. Some for sure, but not many, and certainly not at longer ranges.

[Bullshop Junior]

I have a Savage 93 in 22 Mag that I bought awhile back with the intention to convert to centerfire in the future. Problem is, I was gonna convert it to 22 CCM, but my search for brass has been fruitless, even though I am sure there are several places that make it. The 22 squirrel looks fasinating, but I don't know if it is short enough to feed from the savage magazine, or if it is too fat.

[CGT80]

I have been shooting my 30-30 and 30-06 quite a lot. My light loads cost about 7-9 dollars per 100 rounds. That includes 20 dollars per 1000 boolits to cover propane for smelting and boolit lube. I will be smelting range lead that I have picked up. It is far more fun than 22lr, it is much more accurate even on steel plates to 160 yards, and the cost can be less than 22lr.

My 9mm reloads with moly coated lead bullets end up around 10 cents per round, and 223 with Jwords are 20-30 cents per round. I use these for 3 gun competitions.

For my 460 revolver, I cast my own and use both 45 colt and 460 brass. My 45 colt load is over red dot powder so it is cheap. I use trail boss, 5744, and 296 for the 460, so it isn't as cheap, but it beats buying any factory ammo.

The only problem with the centerfire ammo, is that I have to do all the work to make boolits and load them up. 22lr, 12ga birdshot, buckshot, and slugs, are all store bought, so there is no work involved.

[P.J.Plinkerton]

When I first got my AR, I looked into getting a 22lr adapter to save money. For the cost I reckoned I could shoot 1000+ rounds of surplus (at that time) not even factoring in the cost of the 22s. Just reloading with j-words widens that margin considerably. Not sure I want to cast for my AR but I love 'em in my hornet. Fun factor of 1 to 10, shooting prairie dogs 7, shooting prairie dogs with hand loaded ammo 9, shooting prairie dogs with hand loaded ammo using cast boolits in my favorite gun... 20!

P.J.

[35remington]

The point was that figuring nothing for your other uncounted costs isn't very realistic, and those additional costs of production are ongoing and never go away.

We don't include them because it makes our comparison to 22's look less attractive in terms of savings but our bottom line includes those additional costs just the same.

[rexherring]

My .380 is quite cheap to reload. A pound of Bullseye will load 2800 rounds and free lead from the range and cast and lubed myself. Primers I have were cheap too because I stocked up way before the rush and shortages. I'd love to have something like a 10/22 chambered in .380 for plinking and bunnies.

[Larry Gibson]

22 Hornet or 25-20 for me as primary 22LR replacements. I still have a bit of 22LR ammo though. It was accumulated before the Obama induced panic buying set in after the 1st election. I'm conservative with though considering how long panic buying has been going on.

I buy primers in bulk, hopefully will again someday.....but the primer is the main cost at .03 - .035 at todays prices (locally). I use a lot of recovered range alloy and scrounged lead/alloys. I've had moulds for .22 cal (225107, 225415, 225438, 225462) for a long time so the cost for them over the thousands of bullets cast has been reduced to negligible. I make my own GCs. I've three 25-20 moulds, two are PB'd. I use 2 gr Bullseye under the 225107 and 225438 and 2.5 gr in the 25-20 under the 257283 HP. That's 2800 - 3500 loads per pound so the powder cost is less than 3/4 of a penny. Lube....I can make my own with scrounged material. The loading press and dies (includes a Lyman 310 set up for each cartridge) have paid for themselves.

I get paid to be retired so I guess my time isn't a "cost" issue.

Looks like my currect cost for 22H or 25-20 equivalent loads to 22LR cost me about 4 - 4.5 cents each. That's $20 - $22.50 per "brick". Sounds like a wash at "old" .22LR prices.

I also shoot a lot of TL314-90-SWCs in my .30 and .31 cal rifles over 2.7 - 3.2 gr Bullseye. Cost there is very comparable to .22LR ammo at "old" prices.

Larry Gibson

[Baron von Trollwhack]

For those who have not noticed, many cast booliteers have a great intrest in cast 22 bullets at LR and subsonic velocities, based on hornet, & similar small CF brass. Cost is not the issue, common availability of 22s is, especially with an eye to the future. Did everyone miss the military's announced move away from lead in bullets? Where do you think that will lead for civilian shooting applications ?

Now the guys that shoot 20 +$ a box rimfire match bullets from foreign countries, don't much give a rat's butt right now, but a great many here are the thrifty, prepper, plan ahead types. The kind that historically hunkered down in the depression of hard times and brought their families through. The kind that see just what is happening in the USA right now. Goobermint of lies............and worse. Cops gone Rambo. Thieving politicians. Rule by regulation.

Let us encourage 22 caliber experiments of all kinds.

BvT



God forbid end of our lifestyle here, but a 22 will let you feed a family in most places, if the zombies don't get you, especially in the urban areas. Common pellet rifles just won't do the job a 22 or equivalent will do.

[Blammer]

I'm thinking a levergun in 25acp will be the new 22lr, and you can reload it. :)

[dtknowles]

I found a way to replace some of my .22 LR trigger time yesterday. I had it here all along but was ignoring it.

Yesterday I started shooting my Crossman .177 pump pistol (1740 or some such) in my shop. I am shooting at a distance of 15 ft. Three pumps, small bore target, offhand, open sights. The trigger is not a nice as I am used to, gritty two stage with not enough travel between first and second stage. It really makes me work. Shot 50 rounds yesterday and 50 rounds today. Yesterday I spent some time adjusting the sights for target, distance and number of pumps. It was set for point of aim to match point of impact but for target practice I use 6 o'clock hold on black bulls. Not as nice as shooting my Ruger MKII at 25 yards but no ammo shortage and I can shoot without going to the range.

Tim

[Pakprotector]

I will just cast .224 for my air rifle. 80-90 FPE will suffice I think...;) there is also swaged .224 from NorthAmericanArms for their cap and ball pistols. Pellet pricing on them too. Wish I could get 40 gr instead of just 30.
cheers,
Douglas

[dbosman]

Those of us, with larger hands or arthritic fingers, can't load 25 ACP. The cases are too small.
As I read these threads, I see an opening for the .256 Winchester Magnum.

If anyone shoots the bore out, make it into a .256 Max. Using .357 Maximum cases.
If anyone shoots the barrel out, bore and rifle the barrel for .357 something.


I'm thinking a levergun in 25acp will be the new 22lr, and you can reload it. :)

[jeepyj]

I've done my own tally back almost one year ago and even with inflated powder & primer prices It cost me 6.7 cents per Boolit for my 38. I have hung up my .22 for now but It's not far from my heart.
jeepyj

[CGT80]

My .380 is quite cheap to reload. A pound of Bullseye will load 2800 rounds and free lead from the range and cast and lubed myself. Primers I have were cheap too because I stocked up way before the rush and shortages. I'd love to have something like a 10/22 chambered in .380 for plinking and bunnies.

It's called a Ruger PC 9 :bigsmyl2:

Actually, the PC 9 is 9mm, if you aren't familiar with it. There isn't much difference between 380 and 9mm. 9mm brass is far more common at the ranges I have been to, and the bullets are the same-although 9mm is generally a bit heavier. I wasn't as impressed with the PC 9 as I thought I would be, when I shot a few mag through it, but I wouldn't mind having a 9mm carbine. I would jump on a 9mm AR 15, if there was one for XD mags.

I don't see a reason to use small bore guns for cast boolits, when a slightly bigger bore or case will work just fine and has more potential on the high end. I load light 30-30 and 30-06 loads with cast boolits. There is some extra brass prep over pistol brass, but it is still economical. 38 spl is quite economical, easy to load, takes only a small amount of powder, and is good for revolver and lever action. I would rather deal with components the size of 38 spl than something as small as 25 acp. I don't have a 38 pistol that I like, and I don't have any 38 spl rifles, but I do shoot a 9mm pistol for competition. I am a fan of the cartridge. I like 40 S&w just as much, but 9 is cheaper and easier to get brass for. I have not yet cast for 9mm, and I hear it can be tricky. I have cast for 38 spl, and it was pretty easy.

I guess it all depends on what your goal is, what you like to load, and what firearms you have. Rimfire is fun, but it just doesn't have the thrill that the bigger centerfire guns have. With that said, it is a no brainer for me to shoot cast boolits. I have lots of 22lr, but still go through more centerfire ammo.

[Bullshop Junior]

I'm thinking a levergun in 25acp will be the new 22lr, and you can reload it. :)

That would actually be awesome.

[part_timer]

Those of us, with larger hands or arthritic fingers, can't load 25 ACP. The cases are too small.
As I read these threads, I see an opening for the .256 Winchester Magnum.

If anyone shoots the bore out, make it into a .256 Max. Using .357 Maximum cases.
If anyone shoots the barrel out, bore and rifle the barrel for .357 something.

60 grain boolit and 5gr of unique and you can shoot a long time on just a lb. of powder and lead. :drinks: if you can find 357 mag brass, it's kind of scarce right now.

[dtknowles]

I don't think it is fair to not count the cost of lead when calculating the cost of replacement ammo even if you get the lead for free since you can sell it for a dollar a pound. It does not change the analysis much since the bullets we are talking about only use a penny or two of lead.

Tim

[georgerkahn]

I stopped at a gun shop yesterday, where i was told they have absolutely no rim-fire ammunition for sale in any caliber or configuration, as he "needs save the wee amount he has to offer to customers when they purchase from him a firearm that shoots it". Does this make sense? If I was to buy a .22 long rifle rifle, and assuming Scott (store owner) sold me two boxes of ammo with the firearm... that's all I'd be able to shoot? Not pressing the issue, I inquired re primers, and he did have a bit on the shelf -- with a 1/2-box maximum per customer limit. I purchased the 1/2-box ($20.00). But, back to your experience re the rim-fires -- how are manufacturers expecting to sell new firearms if one can buy no ammo for it after the feeble amount permitted with the sale? As a hunter safety instructor, I used to stress, stress, and stress more that each and every "graduate" purchase and shoot at least a full brick of .22 ammo before they even think about going into the woods to hunt...

[part_timer]

I stopped at a gun shop yesterday, where i was told they have absolutely no rim-fire ammunition for sale in any caliber or configuration, as he "needs save the wee amount he has to offer to customers when they purchase from him a firearm that shoots it". Does this make sense? If I was to buy a .22 long rifle rifle, and assuming Scott (store owner) sold me two boxes of ammo with the firearm... that's all I'd be able to shoot? ...

Just my .02 but it does make sense to me. Our local GS has ammo on the shelf that anyone can purchase while it is out there and a stash in the back that can be purchased with a new gun. It's hard to sell guns with no ammo, not everyone reloads.

[rexherring]

I've seen the 9mm, 40, and .45 carbines but I have a ton of .380's and would love to plink with those. I may still have to get a .45 carbine because I also have a bunch of them too.

[fredj338]

Ive seen two of the 10/22 rifles converted to center fire...one was made to 25 ACP, and the other 32 ACP
My equip cost were amortized out years ago. So I do NOT figure it into cost of production of ammo or lead bullets. I also never figure my time, it is a hobby, butat least with reloading on a progressive, it's like paying myself to make ammo @ 700rds/hr.

[Dan Cash]

I just tallied it up this morning , 3.5 Unique and 55gr in the 222 I'm picking up next week comes out $40/1000 . The 7RWH (7x6.8 Rem) shoots about the same w/a 130. 00B for the 30s and 0000 for 9 and 38.At $50 /1000 I get hobby time and I'm 10 bucks ahead.

Say what? You don't make any sense.

[35remington]

Stating that you make money reloading doesn't make sense, no. Producing something for your own consumption always has a cost of production, not a profit, because you're not selling it.

I've always said handloaders never took Econ 101, and if they did they would fail it miserably.

[Chev. William]

Most Reloaders who do it for their own use treat it as a HOBBY PASSTIME for the quiet pleasure and to maintain their 'homelife'. If you are reloading the 'wife' knows where you are and does not worry you might be 'getting into trouble' somewhere she does not know of. She also usually will let you be unless something Needs Doing tha tshe needs you help with.
These are Economic benefits that are also NOT Calculated by Monetary Values.
Just mu y two cents,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[gewing]

My 22rf centre fire substitute is the 310 Cadet.

3 gns of fast pistol powder and a 120 gn boolit.
What bullet are you using? My dad has had difficulty finding bullets for the actual .320 bore.

[dromia]

Welcome to Cast Boolits gewing.

It is from an Accurate mould that Tom cut for me based on a Lee GB design we did here a few years ago.

It is now a catalogue design at Accurate and Tom will cut the mould to any size you want.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=32-120C-D.png

[P.J.Plinkerton]

Quote Originally Posted by Blammer View Post

I'm thinking a levergun in 25acp will be the new 22lr, and you can reload it.
That would actually be awesome.

+1:drinks:
I've often entertained the idea of converting say a Henry 22mag to centerfire and re-barreling (the 22mag and 25acp rims are close enough to make the bolt face and extractor less of an issue).

P.J.

[Digital Dan]

I'm thinking the idea of converting any lever gun originally intended for rimmed cases is going to be cost prohibitive for two reasons. One, they do not have the bolt face geometry to accept a larger CF round, even a .25 ACP and two, the extraction is going to be a bit of a challenge. There's nothing wrong with the basic idea but there might be better platforms and cartridges to focus one's attention on. The Ruger 77/22H comes to mind as do a number of old and recent production guns that shoot the .25-20 Win. Any of the T/C Contender frames are suitable for conversion to a rifle and barrels are readily available for both chambers. OR, one can have any small cap case or wildcat cut to the same end.

Some years back I purchased a copy of Ken Howell's book, "Designing and Forming Cartridge Cases" (as I recall) and there was some excellent advise within on this issue. In paraphrase form he said that resurrecting old cartridges and guns was a fine pursuit, up until the endeavor required "heroic" measures. The same is true here in this discussion. Put another way, the idea of building an alternative for the .22 RF is a good one, but a very large amount of the foundation has been laid. Small caliber/capacity cases exist that are available today. Take the path of least resistance is my advice.

[Shiloh]

I shoot a 9mm and .38 cheaper than .22's

Shiloh

[Garyshome]

It's sad when i can shoot 9mm for the same price as 22. Also I picked up an air rifle, pellets are cheap and available.

[bangerjim]

In talking to my LGS's, they are selling 22LR pistoles, AR-wanna-be's, and long guns like hotcakes!!!!!! Yet there is no ammo. People are stupid.

Some stores have VERY expensive high-end 22's but at almost 10 cents a round....limit 100!

Again.......people are stupid.......stupid.......stupid.

My rule..........own and shoot ONLY what I can reload!

ALL my 22lr guns are neetly stored away for (at this rate) some future generation!!!!!!!


bangerjim :guntootsmiley:

[fredj338]

Stating that you make money reloading doesn't make sense, no. Producing something for your own consumption always has a cost of production, not a profit, because you're not selling it.

I've always said handloaders never took Econ 101, and if they did they would fail it miserably.
Semantics maybe, but I don;t have to sell something to make $$. At 700rds/hr, I save a min of $15/100 on 45acp as an example. So I would have to make $175 for that hour gross to buy the same equiv of factory ammo. No I have not made that $105 but saved it. So econ 101 or not, it's one way to look at reloading. I would have to make $175/hr to net the $105/hr I saved reloading my own. Yeah, I don't get the economics of that.

[Chev. William]

Quote Originally Posted by Blammer View Post

I'm thinking a levergun in 25acp will be the new 22lr, and you can reload it.

+1:drinks:
I've often entertained the idea of converting say a Henry 22mag to centerfire and re-barreling (the 22mag and 25acp rims are close enough to make the bolt face and extractor less of an issue).

P.J.

The .22 WMR rim is .294" and the .25ACP rim is .302". The body diameters are more of a problem I would think but they would be addressed in the cutting of the chamber. You would need a new barrel, Lothar Walther lists a 23.4" long 6.35mm Browning (.25ACP) Pistol Barrel blank that would make a nice one, I bought one to use on a Marlin 'Levermatic' conversion I am gathering parts for. I already have a bolt (converted from 256 Mag. Model 62 bolt) that is CF and ready to switch into the Model 56 Action. I also have a 'donor' model 56 already with serial number, to use when I get a magazine made to fit the new cartridge. IF you use a Tube Magazine rifle remember to reload your .25ACPs with a bullet with a flat nose such as the 'Ranch Dog' .25ACP 50grain one sold by Carolina Cast Bullets so the nose of one cartridge does not fire the others in the Tube magazine by accident. You could also use the Hornady 35grain Hollow points safely.
As an added note, you probably will need to get some type of cartridge length adaption (such as the Winchester pump 1890/1906 series had for 22 Short, Long, and Long rifle interchange) for the tube magazine cartridge lifter if you want to shoot various cartridge lengths, such as the short 35 grain HP and then the 50 grain RFN as the Over All Length is slightly different.
The Model 56 and the model 62 Marlins are Vertical stack magazine fed so bullet nose is less of a problem.
Otherwise it sounds like you will have a good time with your conversion rifle and be able to reload to feed it cheaply, complements of the 'in line BP Muzzleloader use of .25ACP cases for ignition, they increased demand enough so Magtech is selling .25ACP empties in 100 case bags.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Digital Dan,
The .25ACP is a Semi-rim design and does have a protruding rim so conversion is not as hard as you think.
Just for Grins, a .25ACP will chamber in a .25 Stevens rifle. From what measurements I have made the Head space would be safe to fire, the rifle just needs conversion from RF to CF.
Yes, the Action should be of a stronger style or Upgraded to take the difference in pressures (the .25 Stevens was an early Smokeless and BP loaded round).
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Digital Dan]

Oh I don't think it impossible just that it might require more effort than necessary. Though I've not fooled with it late I did a great deal of work with the .22 Hornet some years ago. Ruger #1 that digested loads in the range of 1100-1200 fps with repeatable sub 1/2" groups of 5 shots using 40 grain J Bullets and some 45 cast purchased from whom I do not recall. It was a very simple excursion and duplicated .22 RF performance quite well.

More recently I've done a similar thing with the .25-20 using the Lyman bullet of about 70 gr supplied by a friend. Don't recall the mould #. Also have used the Ideal 257283 with similar results in a Marlin 1894 built back in the '30s. Critters aren't safe from that one either as it will group 10 in 1.5" at 50 from a rest

My point goes to the fact that replicating RF ballistics need not be a complex undertaking. If inclined the dedicate a gun to that task I would not take heroic measures just because I could.

[35remington]

Smiling at the comparison a bit.

Fred, you can crank away at the press all afternoon and there won't be anything to pay the bills. Don't quit your regular job to "make" money reloading.

[btroj]

Sort of like making a living by shopping sales?

I don't save money by reloading, I shoot lots more for the same money.

The notion that you are among money? Really? To make money you need to produce income. Only in DC does spending less equate to making more.

You may be seeing a net decrease in shooting cost or may be shooting me on the same money but the total income level isn't going up.

Fred, are you a democrat? Your economics sure sound like it.

[Digital Dan]

I understand Fred's point and the counterpoint quite well. Not sure what the economics have to do with the discussion, that being a point on generating ammo in lieu of supply shortages that seem to be driving up prices when it can be found.

My politics make Genghis Kahn look like a weeping liberal. So what?

[JSH]

The problem with 22 Hornet and Jet is brass. The brass is thin and case life is relatively short, and it's expensive.
I have been loading 32-20 for about 20 years I have some rp brass that has close to 18 reloads on it. These are not pop gun loads either most are a 140-200 grain cb with a charge of wc 820.
I reloaded for the hornet for a fair time and did loose a bit of brass. One just has to watch how much they size. I have never lumped center fire brass in a pile and ran it through a bunch of different guns. My hornet loads were also fairly stiff with jacketed loads.
The lee mandrel die fixed a lot of issues.
Jeff

[Shiloh]

Sort of like making a living by shopping sales?

I don't save money by reloading, I shoot lots more for the same money.



Bingo. Shoot a LOT more. Range scrap is virtually free other than sweat equity. I replace the powder and primers I use.
Brass last a LONG time with mild to mid-range cast loads.

Shiloh

[bangerjim]

Screw the economics. I, as I think many on here, reload for the pleasure of making something that goes bang! And you can taylor-make that bang to anything you want....light or heavy. One cannot do that with commercial ammo. With them, one size fits all, pretty much.

We can use different shape/weight/style boolits of different hardnesses and finishes, put them in various brass, use different primers, and fill them with an almost limitless choice of powder loads to accomplish our "fix". Too much recoil......just back off on the load a tick! Try that at WalFart or BigASSPROSHOP. And don't forget all you road rats out there scrounging for WW's! Fun, isn't it???

As I have said many times......"this hobby that was supposed to save me hundreds.....is now costing me thousands!".....is definitely true.

Even if it cost more than 2x the $$ to reload the cal's I shoot, I would still do it, just to have that TOTAL control over my little world...............behind the gun!

bangerjim

[JSH]

I don't care what noise it makes I cast and reload to make what I am playing with shoot small groups. If it just needed to go bang I would have corn meal around here in 100 lb bags.
I don't give up real easy so some guns have stayed around a fair bit longer than others. I trade off and on and like to tinker with stuff people say won't shoot cast.
I started into this casting thanks to no other than Ken. I came into it with lowly thoughts. After a short time my standards rose a lot. I have come to expect no less from a cast bullet than I would a jacketed. I have not always met that but most all of my pistols and rifles will shoot cast as good if not better than a flgc.
If you expect mediocre that is what you will accept as good enough.
Not trying or wanting to start an issue, but I think there are a large number of guys on here that strive for what I do if not more. Folks I shoot with poked a LOT of fun at me shooting cast. That lasted for about a year or so at matches. They have run out of things to say now and very few will say anything.
Jeff

[destrux]

All the .22LR firearms selling so well is a big part of the reason for the shortage of .22LR ammo.


What surprises me is being in a gun shop and watching folks buy 22s. Yea, I know . . . every kid (young or old) should have one and have the experience. I started out with my Dad's 1915 Stevens Favorite when you could buy a box of 22s for 50 cents - $5.00 / brick of 500. I think it's a shame that things are the way they are and I'm surprised that the 22s - rifles/pistols still seem to sell so well with the shortage of ammo. I guess a good air gun is a decent alternative to get kids started out and there are some nice ones out there. I'm in MI and AZ - different times of the year - and 22s are almost impossible to find. The CF seems to be coming back on the shelves of my LGS in MI but the prices are still high. I have about 1K of 22s and I just hate to shoot them as I don't know when I'll be able to find more and not get raped on the price at the same time. I have several rifles and four pistols that just "sit" as there isn't ammo to be found to feed them. I'm reloading 38s and 9mm and to me, that's a cheap alternative - I've got the brass, primers, powder and cast my own - and can also have the enjoyment of loading them in leisure time.

Last winter, I stopped at a local gun shop in Prescott, AZ and discovered they had gotten a shipment of CCI 22 LR in. I asked about them and was told I was limited to two boxes (100 count each) - when I asked him the price - $13.95 a box. No thank you. I'm to the point I'm thinking about just selling some of my 22s and sticking to the CF reloading.

[taiden]

How are you guys reloading 38spl for less than 22lr? CCI500s are $0.046 each locally, and online has the hazmat fee. Unique is $0.023 for a 5 grain load. If you spent $500 on your equipment and reloaded 10,000 rounds that's $0.05 a round. So that's $0.119 or twelve cents a round. I can buy 22lr here locally at 10c a round without any problem or 6c a round if I stay diligent with the online retailers. This ignores the cost of getting lead and brass.

Are you guys sitting on primer and powder from a while back?

[Digital Dan]

Gunbot page data grabbed at 7:53 PM, 12-29-13

GECO Dynamit Nobel 22 LR .22 lr Semi-Auto (5000 rounds) $0.15/rd [$750.00] in stock [Murphy's Ammo]
GECO Dynamit Nobel 22 LR .22 l.r. RIFLE (5000 rounds) $0.15/rd [$750.00] in stock [Murphy's Ammo]
22 LR Armscor Precision 36 Grain HV HP - 500 Round Brick $0.20/rd [$99.99] in stock [Surplus Ammo]
500 Rounds of .22 LR Cyclone Ammo by Remington - 36gr LHP $0.20/rd [$99.00] in stock [BulkAmmo]
Eley Edge .22 Long Rifle 40 Gr. Flat Nose- Box of 50 $0.26/rd [$12.95] in stock [Selway Armory]
Remington 22 LR Match EPS 40 grn. LRN 50 rnd/box $0.33/rd [$16.49] in stock Match [Ammo Supply Warehouse]
.22 LR ELEY Edge 40gr Flat Nose Bullet 1085 fps 50 Rounds 02000 $0.30/rd [$14.93] in stock [CheaperThanDirt]
Wolf Match Target .22LR 40GR LRN, 50rd. Box $0.16/rd [$7.95] in stock Match [AGS Armarment]
ELEY Target .22 Long Rifle 40gr LRN 50 Rnds $0.20/rd [$9.95] in stock [RareAmmo]
20 Rounds of .22 LR Ammo by CCI - 31gr #12 Shotshell $0.45/rd [$9.00] in stock [BulkAmmo]
Aguila Golden Eagle Match Rifle 22 LR 40gr LRN 50 Rnds $0.16/rd [$7.95] in stock Match [RareAmmo]
CCI .22LR #12 SHOTSHELL 31gr pest control 20rd box $0.32/rd [$6.49] in stock [Goose Island]
RWS AMMO 22LR RIFLE MATCH 2134225 50 BOX $0.22/rd [$10.99] in stock Match [Trop]
RWS AMMO 22LR SPECIAL MATCH 2134233 50 BOX $0.26/rd [$12.99] in stock Match [Trop]
22 LR CCI Quik-Shok 32 Grain Plated Lead Hollow Point - 50 Rounds $0.60/rd [$29.99] in stock SelfDefense [Surplus Ammo]
22 LR Remington 36 Grain HP Golden Bullet Value Pack - 525 Round Brick $0.29/rd [$149.99] in stock FMJ [Surplus Ammo]
325 Round Sealed Fresh Fire Can .22LR Federal Champion 36 Grain Hollow Point 1260 fps 745FF $0.37/rd [$119.19] in stock SelfDefense [CheaperThanDirt]
Aguila Golden Eagle Match Pistol 22 LR 40gr LRN 50 Rnds $0.16/rd [$7.95] in stock Match [RareAmmo]
Eley Tenex Pistol Ammunition 22 Long Rifle 40 Grain Lead Round Nose Box of 500 $0.41/rd [$203.99] in stock [MidwayUSA]
Eley-Remington Competition 40 Gr Club XTRA (50 Round Box) $0.22/rd [$10.95] in stock Match [US Armorment]
325 Rounds of .22 LR Ammo by Federal Champion AutoMatch Target - 40gr LRN $0.20/rd [$64.95] in stock Match [BulkAmmo]
50 Rounds of .22 LR Ammo by Federal - 25gr #12 shot $0.33/rd [$16.25] in stock [BulkAmmo]
50 Rounds of .22 LR Ammo by Eley - 40gr LFN $0.34/rd [$16.95] in stock [BulkAmmo]
500 Rounds of .22 LR Ammo by Eley - 40gr LFN

[btroj]

Woooo hoooooo!

I'm a millionaire! I was going to buy a huge house today but didn't. That is the same a a making a huge amount of money!

Beer's on me boys!

[taiden]

Gunbot only shows in stock items. They are in stock because they are so overpriced no one will buy them... well, almost no one. ;)

[JSH]

Taidan I will speak for myself here.
I have plenty of .22 ammo. I always bought in lots of 5k. Picked up blasting/plinking ammo when a good=cheap deal came along then bought all I could afford.
Primers, I don't know the last time I bought less than 5k at a time. Opps I can tell ya. Been about 10 years ago and never had any large rifle magnums. Wanted 1k but split that with another guy.
Powder. Only time I have bought in 1lb jugs was something new that came out or something that I was working up a load for. Didn't ever know the made unique in anything smaller than a 4 pounder. If it is a powder that I use in a lot of things I try to keep an 8 lb jug unopened on hand. When the unopened one is started on it is time to get another.
Same on 5k sleeves of primers.
IMHO it's kinda like closing the gate after the cows are out.
I shoot and by some folks standards a lot. However I have cut back a fair bit as in life things change and you have to do things different. In the mean time or off time I still buy and stock up. I am by no means a hoarder. If I want to load up 3-4k of misc. over the winter I don't need to waste time looking for it and paying an outrageous price.
Same on lead and alloy. Though I will say I have a life time supply unless I start shooting something that flings 1/4 lb at a time then I may be in a pickle.
Jeff

[bangerjim]

How are you guys reloading 38spl for less than 22lr? CCI500s are $0.046 each locally, and online has the hazmat fee. Unique is $0.023 for a 5 grain load. If you spent $500 on your equipment and reloaded 10,000 rounds that's $0.05 a round. So that's $0.119 or twelve cents a round. I can buy 22lr here locally at 10c a round without any problem or 6c a round if I stay diligent with the online retailers. This ignores the cost of getting lead and brass.

Are you guys sitting on primer and powder from a while back?

I do not factor in the cost of ANY reloading equiment. That's part of the cost of having the habbit/hobby. Unless you are starting out green with nothing, most have the bare essentials to load.

A lot of us DO have a storehouse of powder and primers from the good ole days. If you are going out to buy everything today, it can be a bit pricy.

Look at the guys that spend $500+ on 223 swaging dies to make 22lr cases into projectiles. The brass is free and the lead wire is pretty cheap. But the cost cannot be calculated on the initial cost of the equipment. For me, I simly buy 5 5g FMJ's for 16 cents a piece and load them. I can buy many THOUSANDS of them for the price of the dies set. Same with molds. You can buy almost 1,000 FMJ's for the cost of ONE 5 banger mold! But people do cast and swage.

To load or not to load.....that is the question.........only YOU can anwer!

For me it is having total control of my loads and final carts.

banger

[btroj]

I got Tula primers from powder Valley for half that price. Powder is what it is but I don't shoot Unique and Hp38 does well at 3.5 to 4 gr per pound. Lead is free, I get it from the berm myself.

Reloading equipment isn't factored in, it lasts about forever and over thousands of rounds the cost just isn't significant.

I might be able to shoot 22 LR cheaper but why? I can't reload em. I prefer to shoot something I cast and loaded.

Cast makes needing 22 LR not relevant. It just doesn't have a use in my guns.

[taiden]

One thing that is true about equipment is that you can recoup a lot on resale. If you figure a 70% resale value, (which from what I have seen is well below average), then a lot of the equipment cost disappears.

[btroj]

Why would you sell reloading equipment? I buy what I need, nothing more, nothing less. I have never sold a piece of reloading gear and have been reloading for 30 years.

Sell it? Never

[taiden]

I wouldn't suggest it, just from an accounting standpoint the tooling's resale value is considered an asset and shouldn't be ignored when determining the cost of your reloads.

[dverna]

I think a lot has been lost. We started with cheap .22's as kids. It was fun and taught us how to shoot and responsibility.

There will be millions of kids who will not be able to experience that - and that will hurt us long term. $40+ for a brick is not in the cards for most families.

We can pat ourselves on the back for being able to reload and shoot for pennies a shot - but do not overlook the damage that is occurring to our sport.

I am not sure it is a conspiracy - but I wonder why .22's are not only scarce but pricey. They are not produced on the same equipment as military ammo - and "hoarders" are not buying up the total production capacity of the US at $40+ a brick. If anyone who works closely with the ammunition producers can answer the question I would find it enlightening.

BTW, I am not whining. I have about 40,000 rounds of .22's stockpiled over the last 10 years so my kids and I are set. And I reload/cast and am well supplied there too. But I am concerned for the sport.

Don Verna

[Digital Dan]

Gunbot only shows in stock items. They are in stock because they are so overpriced no one will buy them... well, almost no one. ;)

Gunbot also shows out if stock ammo, depends on how you set up the filters. Question that comes to mind is how much do you enjoy imagining how much ammo you didn't get to shoot because it doesn't exist?

[quilbilly]

How are you guys reloading 38spl for less than 22lr? CCI500s are $0.046 each locally, and online has the hazmat fee. Unique is $0.023 for a 5 grain load. If you spent $500 on your equipment and reloaded 10,000 rounds that's $0.05 a round. So that's $0.119 or twelve cents a round. I can buy 22lr here locally at 10c a round without any problem or 6c a round if I stay diligent with the online retailers. This ignores the cost of getting lead and brass.

Are you guys sitting on primer and powder from a while back?
I have replaced my 22's with a 9mm Luger single shot carbine. The cost is - lead=.025 , powder=.017, primer=.035, and lube=.004 for a total of 7.1 cents a shot or a little less than local 22RF's if you can find them. Velocity and accuracy at 70 yards is similar so those 125 RNFP boolits have a heck of a lot more "authority" on coyotes than the 22RF's do.

[taiden]

That actually sounds like a lot of fun. Don't tempt me!

[Old School Big Bore]

Larry - how do you get the 314-90s down to a manageable size in your .308-diameter cartridges? I just bought one and when I cast it out of wheel weight & Lino, it wants to shear the bands off whether I put it through a .311 or .308 die in the 450 or push it through a Lee .308 push-die. I was thinking about trying a different alloy to get them to cast a bit smaller...
Dromia - I'm jealous of your Cadet, always wanted something like a rook rifle...
I've been chewing on the idea of making a straight, rather than tapered, 25 Hornet - size the head down to the rim to eliminate the case taper, and use the .251 bore with .25 ACP bullets instead of .256 - and start a whole family of .22 replacement arms - single & double action revolvers, s/s & auto pistols, s/s, bolt, pump, lever & auto rifles...with 45 to 60 gr cast or j-word boolits...
Personally I have bricks and bricks of .22 left over from when I was a military & law enforcement competitive shooter on the ammo t34t, and I don't really shoot a lot of .22, since now I'm no longer double-hatted and only compete in law enforcement centerfire matches...

[Chev. William]

Larry - how do you get the 314-90s down to a manageable size in your .308-diameter cartridges? I just bought one and when I cast it out of wheel weight & Lino, it wants to shear the bands off whether I put it through a .311 or .308 die in the 450 or push it through a Lee .308 push-die. I was thinking about trying a different alloy to get them to cast a bit smaller...

Old School Big Bore: The 90 Grain delimma may be solved by trying some "311090A" bullets "Matt's Bullets" has my permission to is casting from my Accurate mold built 5 cavity of that number. Matt has my permission to sell bullets from my mold to others who are interested in a .312" heel diame Driving band diameter .303" heel diameter round flat nose inside lube design. It was specified to be made with a .300" cylindrical section added forward fo the front driving band to keep the weight that would have been lost by the diameter reductions from the original design. Chev. William

Dromia - I'm jealous of your Cadet, always wanted something like a rook rifle...
I've been chewing on the idea of making a straight, rather than tapered, 25 Hornet - size the head down to the rim to eliminate the case taper, and use the .251 bore with .25 ACP bullets instead of .256 - and start a whole family of .22 replacement arms - single & double action revolvers, s/s & auto pistols, s/s, bolt, pump, lever & auto rifles...with 45 to 60 gr cast or j-word boolits...
Personally I have bricks and bricks of .22 left over from when I was a military & law enforcement competitive shooter on the ammo t34t, and I don't really shoot a lot of .22, since now I'm no longer double-hatted and only compete in law enforcement centerfire matches...

Old School Big Bore: I'm doing that. please see threads dealing wiht the 1894 Stevens Favorite, and also check both "Ammoguide Interactive" under Lengthened .25ACP and .25 Stevens and other interests.
There is further discussions on "Shooters Forums" under several threads, including .25ACP, .25 Stevens, Stevens Favorite, etc.
I have purchased a Finishing Chamber Reamer for ".250ALRM" from "Pacific Tool and Gauge". This a .25ACP diameter case made from .22 Hornet brass of 1.258" length, plus shorter versions, to be tried in the above chamber. It is intended for .250" to .255" diameter bullets. I currently have on order from PTG a Roughing Chamber Reamer also in ".250ALRM" caliber.
"Lothar Walther" sells a .25ACP/6.35 Browning Barrel blank that is 23.4 inches in length as a 'Pistol Barrel Blank'.

Go for the Idea, we can always use another Experimenter to develop the cartridge designs.

I am planning to use a Stevens Favorite Action with a "Bull barrel" as the Lothar Walther barrel blank is roughly 1.1" diameter and the barrel Tenon for the Stevens actions only needs to be .660" diameter for about 1.4 inches. I intend for the moment to leave the rest of the blank at as manufactured diameter.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

This is added to get the Thread to post my reply.

[bangerjim]

I think a lot has been lost. We started with cheap .22's as kids. It was fun and taught us how to shoot and responsibility.

There will be millions of kids who will not be able to experience that - and that will hurt us long term. $40+ for a brick is not in the cards for most families.

We can pat ourselves on the back for being able to reload and shoot for pennies a shot - but do not overlook the damage that is occurring to our sport.

I am not sure it is a conspiracy - but I wonder why .22's are not only scarce but pricey. They are not produced on the same equipment as military ammo - and "hoarders" are not buying up the total production capacity of the US at $40+ a brick. If anyone who works closely with the ammunition producers can answer the question I would find it enlightening.

BTW, I am not whining. I have about 40,000 rounds of .22's stockpiled over the last 10 years so my kids and I are set. And I reload/cast and am well supplied there too. But I am concerned for the sport.

Don Verna

Bwaaaaa.....haaaaaa........haaaaaa! The Damocrap liberal gun-grab policies are coming together nicely!

It's all part of the plan. No guns. No violence. No crime. "Can't we just all get along?"

After all......if you're being threatened.......just pick up your phone and call 911.....the cops will be there in 15-30 minutes.......... to put down the body outline tape of you and your family.

Remember........."it's for the kid's safety"!

banger

[Chev. William]

It's Really for Workplace Safety for the Criminals. Too many have been 'injured' by armed victims in the past.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Jailer]

So I've read this entire thread. It's drifted around quite a bit but the original proposition still remains.

What is a good alternative to 22lr that we as casters can migrate to? What can be cheaply reproduced with readily available components?

Me, I'm liking the 22TCM. Seems to be a lot of potential for that round.

Any thoughts?

[taiden]

I know very little about cartridges, but I imagine something that is in the lower end of velocity, that uses a very light round would be best... keep your powder and lead costs low. 22TCM seems very interesting. Can you mod a 223 case and use a 9mm mag? Are there many firearms chambered for this cartridge?

What about 25 ACP?

[btroj]

No way am I dealing with a 25 ACP. No thanks. I will go to peas and a straw before I mess with that little cartridge.

[retread]

No way am I dealing with a 25 ACP. No thanks. I will go to peas and a straw before I mess with that little cartridge.
I am with you on that one!!

[starmac]

btroj Just out of curiosity, how do you like the 25 acp????? lol

[Chev. William]

No way am I dealing with a 25 ACP. No thanks. I will go to peas and a straw before I mess with that little cartridge.

So 'btroj', I understand you prefer a low velocity air pistol to a .25 caliber Rifle?
Testing has shown that the 50 grain .25ACP will yield around 1000 to 1100 Feet per second velocity out of an 18 inch long barrel. That is still subsonic but still in the range of energy of 22LR ammo. And, IF you hand load for the Rifle length barrel, you could use a slower burning powder and get much more Velocity and Energy out of that 50 grain .25ACP cartridge. And it IS reload-able!
If you go to a 24 inch barrel, the powder choices expand some more.
Best Regards,
Chev. william

[Chev. William]

I am with you on that one!!
retread,
Discarding a candidate cartridge before study is not in anyone's best interests.
Published .25ACP loads were developed for a 2 inch to 2-1/2 inch pocket automatic pistol NOT for a Rifle length, or even a Carbine length, Firearm.
as in my reply to btroj, the .25ACP HAS capabilities, not yet in use, if fired from a rifle.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[btroj]

The bullet is almost the same size as the case! I dislike 9mm cases enough based on size, a 25 just isn't gonna happen. I refuse to handle bullets with tweezers!

A 32-20 would do fine, thank you very much. Easy to download with lighter bullets. A case that a guy can hold onto.

25 ACP? Not for me. I need to start hoarding peas......

[Digital Dan]

http://www.bullberry.com/contender_barrels.html

Lot's of viable options here...

[dtknowles]

If we are talking cartridges I vote for 30 carbine for a semi-auto and 25-20 for manual repeaters except .22 Hornet for bolt guns and .22 Hornet for single shots as well.

Tim

[Chev. William]

If we are talking cartridges I vote for 30 carbine for a semi-auto and 25-20 for manual repeaters except .22 Hornet for bolt guns and .22 Hornet for single shots as well.

Tim

All good selections but Which 25-20?
25-20SS , 25-20WCF, or???
Teh Hornet is also useful for parent cases to make 250ALRM family of lengthend .25ACP siblings or even .25 Stevens CF cases. A 67 Grain .251" diameter nominal bullet would go nicely in a .25 Stevens cartridge.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[dtknowles]

All good selections but Which 25-20?
25-20SS , 25-20WCF, or???
Teh Hornet is also useful for parent cases to make 250ALRM family of lengthend .25ACP siblings or even .25 Stevens CF cases. A 67 Grain .251" diameter nominal bullet would go nicely in a .25 Stevens cartridge.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

My choices are in consideration of available guns and brass. If you don't mind custom or hard to find guns and wildcats or obsolete calibers there are other more optimal choices. I was thinking 25-20 WCF because of the available pump and lever action guns. A longer rimless case for 25 caliber would be nice or a straight rimless case for 30 caliber that would work in a blowback action with a chamber that would not take the .30 carbine. Say with a overall length of the .22 mag. so you could convert a .22 mag. semiauto to lets call it .30 short auto, of course you could have .25 long auto that is the same COL as .30 short auto and you could have .270 or 7 mm or 8mm. Larger diameter than that and we already have a bunch of pistol cartridges that run fine in carbines. Something like that in something like a .22 mag clone of the Ruger 10-22 would be simple and inexpensive enough to consider if there was easy brass. What do you get if you blow out shoulder on the fn 5.7 x 28 case. Does anyone shoot cast in the 5.7, don't ever hear about it.

Tim

[retread]

When looking for a substitute for 22 LR I am thinking of a caliber that I can find brass for economically. At the range and places I shoot the most plentiful choices in brass are 9mm, 40 s&w, 223 and 380 Auto. All can be reloaded with cast for less than the current prices of available 22 LR. In addition to range pick ups I have a good inventory of 38 Spl and 357 mag brass. At his time I do not have anything that uses 38/357. I am thinking of getting a Henry Big Boy in 38/357 for my plinking. If I were to depend on range pick up I would probably go with a 223 in a good bolt action. For pistol I will use my 9mm unless I can find an older S&W Model 10 38 Spl at the right price.

[GabbyM]

My Rem 700 VLS with 12 twist shoots cast very nice out to 100 yards. Wind gets it past that but I'm running just short of 2200 fps so it's way past a 22 RFM. 60 grain Lyman #225646. Sub MOA. 50% heavier bullet and far more velocity. The old 222 Rem is an even better boolit shooter. With it's 14 twist barrel you can run cast to 2,400 fps and still not burn much powder. Or buy an after market 1:14" twist 223 barrel. Generally in stock at Brownells because the 1:14" is better for 50 grain HV varmint loads.
I enjoy casting 22's and they cast very fast as you don't have to wait for the mold to cool very long.

You can form 222 Rem brass from 5.56mm NATO brass simply by running the brass through a 222 die then trimming. A CZ mini Mauser in 222 is about as sweet as it comes.

If you already own a lube sizer, casting pot, and a set of mold handles. Then all you need buy is a set of mold blocks, .225" size die. top punch and some 22 gas checks. A pound of metal is 7000 grains. Divided by 60 grains is 116 boolits. Lyman still sells 44 grain molds too. Then you are actually passing up 22 Hornet power. Not competing with 22 rim fire or even 22 rim fire mag. 60 grain bullet is 50% over weight of a 22 rim fire and you are at 2,200 fps instead of 1,050 fps. 2,400 fps with a 14 twist barrel.

Get a 14 twist barrel in 222 or 223 then load to 2350 fps then go hunting. You can kill anything under eighty pound with authority.

[Digital Dan]

Own both the Winchester and SS version of the .25-20. Case capacity is close to identical for the two if them and brass for the Win is readily available.

Brass for the SS is not and guns chambered for the cartridge are uncommon as are reamers.

Will say that cost factors support the idea of casting in lieu of using the .22rf, costs and availability notwithstanding. Someone charting a course far off the beaten path will quickly lose that cost advantage.

The simple and cheap method would be the use of existing arms with small cap cases. Pretty simple actually.

[bangerjim]

I use lite load 38spl, 45lc and Bator 223 for my normal 22lr replacement. Cheap to reload and fun to shoot! No need to "bastardize" any cases. Just pick them up and reload.

Really only cost is powder (have tons of it) and primers ( have tons of 'em).

And HMG slugs are fun to cast and shoot!!!!!!!!!!!

banger

[Iowa Fox]

Until things loosen up or if they ever do I'll be shooting the Hornet barrels on the Contender with the 225107 & 225415. To fill in for the fun of the 10/22 I'll be shooting the Marlin 357C with light 38 spec loads. I don't want to burn up my supply of 22LR until I see where prices bottom out at if it ever reappears. We all need to start building bullet traps so the only lead that gets away is the ones we shoot while hunting. Just like the battery companies.

[JSH]

Well on 1-1-14 I started on my way of down sizing my .22 rf stuff. Traded into a 22 hornet. It is new old stock rifle unfired. Savage model 40.
I also think making a wildcat for a replacement is out. I passed on a Remington pump in 25-20 this past summer. I have a big fat zero for it as far as sizers dies and molds and brass for it. That would have been almost like starting from scratch for me.
I see no need to reinvent the wheel in order to play.
If worse came to worse I would play with the .223. Seems like there has been a fair bit done with it and down loading. So half or more of the work is already done.
I myself am looking to replace. Not start a new project.
I will keep my bullseye guns in .22rf. My plinking and blasting guns are done. Already spoke to the son about this if he wants to keep any of it I will. But he can pay to feed it.
Jeff

[fecmech]

I personally think the .38 spl. is an excellent .22 replacement. Using a 120-130 gr. bullet, about 4.5 grs of Bullseye I get 1200 fps out of my lever .357's and excellent accuracy. Current price of Wolf primers to my door $27.90/k, recently purchased BE@ $14./lb in 4 lb kegs and ww's acquired locally at about $.15/lb. That makes my .38's a hair less than $.04/shot so I have no interest in .22 's at all. Brass for .38 spl. is everywhere and cheap. An excellent alternative I think.

[donald duck]

I am shooting .223 a lot lately as I cast a 52 grain bullet from a mold ending in 415. Fired 7 shots from my Browning A bolt .223 and could cover all seven rounds with a nickel at 25 yards. The load was 5.7 grains accurate # 5 behind the 52 grain cast bullet. I figure primer and gas check cost around six cents. so maybe total cost is certainly less than ten cents. I also have a Contender 10 inch barrel in .223. These are more fun to shoot than can be imagined. Accurate told me that they do not recommend using Accurate # 5 in .223. I load Accurate# 5, Unique, Tight Group. Green Dot in .223 and 7mmTCU. None of my loads are very hot and primers are not flattened. In light loads check them with a flashlight before loading bullet.

[Certaindeaf]

I almost got run out of town on a rail on another site when I said what I shot .38/.357/9mm for in a (one thousandth) "where's the .22lr ammo?" thread.
I've never really been a .22lr shooter in my 35 year plus career of reloading and casting.

[.22-10-45]

Not exactly "new". The British shooters of the 1870's thru WW1 had a poor opinion of the then available .22 rounds as regards to stopping power. The vast array of Rook rifles and their varied calibers..most over .22 attest to this.

[GabbyM]

Other day I ordered a new CZ 527 in 222 Rem.
Already have 223’s but they are all heavy guns or AR-15’s.

If I want to really put out the ammo in mass. I could set it up on my Dillon 550B. Run 223 and 243 ammo on it before. Using a Lee collet neck die that requires no lube. You can usually adjust Lee collet dies to fit an oversized bullet. If you need a little taper or suede flare you can use a Dremel tool with stone and slightly open the top of the collet so it leaves the mouth a little larger. Other option is about $100 for a bushing neck die set-up.

22 rimfire magnum duplication loads are very mild boolit loads for a 223 or 222. I only have a 225646 that drops 60 grain bullet. That’s more bullet than a rim fire will shoot. Lyman still makes 44 grain moulds for the Hornet shooters. Then about 5 grains of shotgun powder and you’re running 22 RFM power. I’ll be running something more like 12 grains of 2400 under the 60 grain boolits for 2,400 fps. In this 1:14” twist 222.

Back before I cast bullets. I used to load 4.5 grains of Unique under a 45 grain Hornet bullet in a 223 Rem. You can charge that up a bit with 2400 and duplicate 22 hornet ballistics easily. There is data out there for it. Reason I used to do it was so I could shoot off a round without alarming everyone within two miles. Use the Hornet bullets for two reasons. One they’ll expand at Hornet velocity. Other is they are thin jacket and far less likely to stick in a barrel. Cast boolits are the best choice. But not every shooter has the volume demand to set up to cast them.