How consistent are you REALY???

[MBTcustom]

I was recently challenged by a more advanced caster here (45 2.1) to work to achieve near perfect consistency in my casting. I was told that if I do it right, I should be able to drop hundreds of boolits with less than .2 grains total deviation.
I realized that I have never really tested a casting session to see exactly what I do and how consistently I cast.

So I cast 100 boolits and proceeded to prove to myself that I am so far off the mark it aint even funny! Its true, I had many consistent boolit weights, but instead of just shrugging and throwing the culls back in the pot, I decided to record them. Not only that, but when I decided to only keep the boolits that landed in a .2 grain window, I basically ended up throwing more than half of them back in the pot. So I started lining them up on the bench according to weight in .1 grain increments. I have done this before, but I never tried to make sense of it, or put them in a row.
When I did, I saw that the boolits produced a bell curve of sorts. Literally a graph of my proficiency as a caster! The shorter and broader the curve, the worse I was casting. In contrast, the higher and narrower the curve, the better I was casting.
Let me walk you through what I did:

So this first graph was me casting at 700* with 50/50, in a Lee 20lb pot, with a brass MP four cavity mold, with a 10 second dwell after the drop.
91247
I changed to a ladle and cast these
91246
I then ran the mold hot and eliminated the dwell after the drop. Open and shut, peddle to the mettle.
91248

Now, at this point, even though I was seeing improvement, another test I was doing was telling me that there was something going on with the mold. You see I had witnessed the cavities in the mold so that I could tell the boolits apart after they had dropped. Once the curve was established, I would take the best boolits out of the middle of the curve, and separate them into each of four cups based on which cavity they dropped from.......then I would weigh the cups of boolits to see if there was any correlation between a certain cavity and the boolits that landed in those two perfect strings in the middle of the curve. What I discovered surprised me.
Every time, with startling consistency, the last cavity filled was producing the most consistent boolits. In other words, the cup that weighed the most, was always directly related to the cavity that was last filled.
I tried and tried to think of why that might be. I called several people today and hashed the problem over. One of the people I called was Larry Gibson, and he speculated that the lead in the bottom of the pot, and especially around that spout, was cooler than the lead in the middle of the pot. This made perfect sense to me, because the spout has to be a source of heat loss since it's hanging out of the pot. He suggested that I might try putting an ingot mold under the spout and pouring some lead into it to "prime" the spout before filling the mold. He also suggested turning up the heat a little to 725*.
So I figured what the heck? I turned up the juice, and put my ingot ladle under the spout, preheated my mold, and began. I would pour into the ladle for two seconds and then sweep the mold under the spout and begin filling the mold in the same order that I did before. This had a dramatic effect on my boolit graph, as I ran the good boolits right off the paper in no time and the discrepancies were reduced significantly.
91252
Im still not there, but I realized that this trick can be used to find out all kinds of useful information about your casting technique, and where the weaknesses are in your method, as well as showing you in real time how effective a theory is.
I want to extend a big thank you to Sergeant Mike as he was here with me for 6 hours today and helped me run these tests. He had a theory that if we used his Seaco lead pot, ran the melt at 875*, and pressure cast the boolits, then we would get better consistency. We tried it, and this is what the graph looked like:
91253
It was easy to see that method was not going to work. The numbers just don't lie.

Ideally, what I will strive for is to be able to cast 400 boolits and have only two rows of boolits as long as my bench, and two rows of boolits about 5 deep. That would be near perfect casting for all intents and purposes.

I hope this trick will help you to see your consistency and help you diagnose problems in your methods.
It sure was an eye opener for me!

[Certaindeaf]

Great work!

[smokeywolf]

Great write-up Tim. You've got me thinking now.

[cbrick]

You can also narrow the weight spread by not keeping any of the first 8-10 pours even after you pre-heat the mold on a hot plate. Don't even look at them, the first pours are simply to get the mold to and keep a uniform temp throughout the mold . Even with a pre-heated mold the first pours will always be the lighter boolits unless you really cook the mold hot when pre-heating.

Rick

[C. Latch]

What do you mean by 'pressure cast'?

<---still pretty new to all this.

[MBTcustom]

That's where you stick the spout right into the sprue hole and shoot the alloy into the mold under pressure.

[cbrick]

That's where you stick the spout right into the sprue hole and shoot the alloy into the mold under pressure.

Yes, the pressure comes from the weight of the alloy in the pot. The larger and fuller the pot the more pressure. As Tim found out from trying this I've never been to fond of it, it does tend give better fill-out but also whiskers & weight variation.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

I also ran a few tests with spout height, and how far to throw the alloy into the mold. I believe I was seeing 3/8" - 1/2" drop is about as good as it gets.
I tried it at 1" and further, and that gave some seriously janky results.

[C. Latch]

Yes, the pressure comes from the weight of the alloy in the pot. The larger and fuller the pot the more pressure. As Tim found out from trying this I've never been to fond of it, it does tend give better fill-out but also whiskers & weight variation.

Rick

I don't have a thermometer and when I first started casting I'd just cast as soon as the pot was hot enough to flow smoothly from a ladle. I then figured out that as it got hotter my bases filled out better, but along the way I figured out that tapping the handle-bolt of the mold on the edge of the pot just as I finish pouring seemed to really help my bases fill out. I have no idea what it does to weight consistency (because I've never compared it to another method), but if I tap the mold a couple of times IMMEDIATELY after filling the mold, I get much better base fillout.

[Springfield]

Interesting, but does the less than 1% difference in weight really make any difference by the time the bullet gets to the target? Always seemed to me the shooter will affect the bullet placement much more than that. Plus I feel 100 bullets is not nearly enough of a group to test consistency, more like 500. I have weighed larger bunches of my bullets after casting and I tend to get 2 large groups close together and a few on the extreme ends. Also always wondered how much difference was between the cavities themselves. Another thing to consider was the head pressure of the pot. Theoretically a 40 lb Magma should be more consistent than a 20 lb LEE. Fortunately I rarely shoot over 100 yards so all of this is mostly a moot point for me.

[357maximum]

First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned

[AlaskanGuy]

+1 to what 357maximum says... I am gunns do just that... :drinks:

[kenyerian]

Curious if your Lee Pot has a PID hooked up to it? If it doesn't do you think it would help? I've been seriously considering ways to make my results more consistant also. A PID is the next step I'm going to try and I think I will also order some lyman # 2. I've been trying to get better results with my 22 Hornet.

[hermans]

Amazing information Goodsteel, one is never too old to learn something new!

[MBTcustom]

First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned

Can I reverse that order? LOL!


OK, first of all, even if it doesn't make any difference down range, I consider casting and shooting to be two separate disciplines loosely connected at the hip. A person can be quite good at one and suck muddy rocks at the other.
That said, the only factors we have to judge our proficiency at the pot are:
Alloy
Weight
Appearance
Hardness/malleability
And ultimately, downrange accuracy.

The alloy is determined up front, or by laser XRF if you're lucky and really becomes the rose colored glasses through which you view each batch of boolits. The hardness can be tested but usually damages the boolit in some way (neither here nor there, smoke if ya got em). Obviously, shooting them is kind of final, no do-overs, no erasies, and you have rather decided to change sports there.
All that's left is weight and appearance.
All I did, was observe that the boolits produce a graph of proficiency if you will, and help you to see what is working for a particular mold.
I'm a bit of an accuracy junky anyway. I really really care about the things I make being superbly accurate, and it always bugged me that I couldn't see the subtle effect a certain change in procedure would have on my casting.
Neither here nor there.
All I am saying is that if you want to know how accurate you are with your particular casting technique, mold, alloy, cadence, and mental constitution, you can visually measure that by ordering them by weight on a piece of paper.
It does take some time, but the effect is fascinating!
Last night I had to try it again.
In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
The results were dramatic!
91283
I still have some variances, but I'm almost certain that came from the times I put the built up lead in the ladle back into the pot. This cooled the melt, which in turn made the mold run slightly cooler. I wish I could afford a 40lb magma pot, but that just isn't in the cards right now.
But dang! I'm scaring the hell out of it with my Lee 20 pounder eh? LOL!

[oldarkie]

I use a muffin pan marked 0 to 9,the two extra holes are for real oddballs,I remelt them and shoot the rest.

[MBTcustom]

Next thing I'm going to do is to take that long string in the middle (173.3) and separate them by cavity and see if I have succeeded in evening out the %age of good boolits coming from the first cavity by priming the spout before pouring.
I'll post results later.

[MBTcustom]

Well, it's official. Priming the spout eliminated the preference between cavities. I took the boolits that were in the longest strings shown in the link up yonder and seperated them into individual cups by cavity. Then I weighed each of the cups.
Without priming the spout, I saw a very clear progression in the cavities. Without fail, the first two cavities filled would produce less good boolits than the last two cavities filled. The test I just ran showed that all the cups were pretty close to the same weight range. 1 and 3 were identical, and so were 2 and 4.
I'd say that's "Theory proven" with this mold and this alloy, and this crazy nut on the stream switch. LOL!

[cbrick]

In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
The results were dramatic!
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0810_zps2bc3015e.jpg

Who'da thunk it? :shock:

Rick

[izzyjoe]

Thanks for the info, I've never really given much thought too it, but I'll give this try, now you got me courious as to how good my method is. I use an old U.S. Army spoon hammered into a v shape on the side with a wood handle, it looks crude, but it wooks well. now I'm gona find out how well!

[cbrick]

Curious if your Lee Pot has a PID hooked up to it? If it doesn't do you think it would help? I've been seriously considering ways to make my results more consistant also. A PID is the next step I'm going to try and I think I will also order some lyman # 2. I've been trying to get better results with my 22 Hornet.

Yes, it does help. Mold temp variation equals boolit weight variation. All electric pots temperature controlled with a thermostat will get hotter as the level of the alloy goes down. Just the nature of the beast.

With the 22 caliber boolits you mention weight variation will have a greater effect on accuracy than will say a 240 gr 44 caliber boolit. 0.4 gr variation is a much larger percentage of a 40 gr boolit than 0.4 gr variation is of a 240 gr boolit.

Still though first and foremost is that the boolit fits properly the firearm it's to be fired in. Next is the boolit bases must be perfect, the base steers the boolit not the nose. If the bases aren't perfect even if covered up with a gas check and can't be seen it is still a less than perfect base.

Rick

[TheCelt]

Curious if your Lee Pot has a PID hooked up to it? If it doesn't do you think it would help? I've been seriously considering ways to make my results more consistant also. A PID is the next step I'm going to try and I think I will also order some lyman # 2. I've been trying to get better results with my 22 Hornet.

It sure made a difference for me. My results mirrored Goodsteel's although I didn't investigate as thoroughly as he has. After installing the PID I was in fact able to keep the variations down to a .2gr spread in the small 50gr 225415 HPs (50.0gr-50.1gr) and within .5gr on the Mihec 45cal 200gr HP Boolits (201.4gr - 201.9gr). It was interesting to see how fast and drastic a change occurred in melt temp just by adding the hot sprues and rejects back to the pot, which I usually do until the mold gets up to temp.

[Down South]

You can also narrow the weight spread by not keeping any of the first 8-10 pours even after you pre-heat the mold on a hot plate. Don't even look at them, the first pours are simply to get the mold to and keep a uniform temp throughout the mold . Even with a pre-heated mold the first pours will always be the lighter boolits unless you really cook the mold hot when pre-heating.

Rick
Ditto. This is pretty much what I do. I might discard the first 20 pours to get everything up to working temp.
I still have a little weight variance but most of my casting is for hand gun.

[GabbyM]

I've a Mama pot that has a two hole nozzle. Nice but last Sunday I was trying to fill a three cavity MP Cramer rifle mold with a two hole nozzle. It actually worked a lot worse than you'd think. Pot has a single hole spout. Will be using that next time. In the mean time I'm practicing with my block with various shaped holes and a pile of pins to match up with the holes. All in bright pastel colors.

I've a few molds here I end up using the pressure poor technique on. Seams the longer and skinnier a bullet is the greater benefit from a pressure poor. Like 200 grain 30 caliber. Then My little 22 caliber Lyman #225646 Like pressure to get those thin groves in the nose filled out.

[Pat I.]

First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned

This.

[MBTcustom]

This.

This thread isn't about shooting. It's about casting.
A good shot can win a silhouette match with almost any boolit that will shoot halfway straight, and I say hats off to 'em.

However, there is accuracy and proficiency at the pot also. I cast my boolits months before I plan to shoot them. To me, the two disciplines are distinctly separate. I want perfection in both, because accuracy is a way of thinking.

That said, I don't go to these lengths with pistol boolits. In fact, the only reason I did it this time was to find the most accurate way to use my Lee BP pot. I did just that, and I'm happy with the results.

I mean, if I can hold my head right and cast 1000 boolits that are all within .3 grains of each other, why would I intentionally cast like a slob just because it doesn't seem to matter on paper? We all want the best product we can make, so why not learn how?
I just don't understand why you would look down on a man for trying to operate with a little class.

Just because you don't mow your lawn, don't throw garbage on mine because I keep it trimmed, ya know?

[John Boy]

Accurate 9.5x47R mold - ladle pour - pot temperature 780 degrees - cast with a 5 second pour - sprue puddle frost in 7 seconds and the results:
* 04 bullets = 209.8 - 209.9
* 96 bullets = 210.4 - 210.8 ... 0.4gr Bell Curve

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1506-1.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1506-1.jpg.html)

[country gent]

Alot of things affect consistency of the castings. Pressure of the pour, velocity of the pour, over pour ( filling the mold and slowly filling the sprue to overfull and running over for a set count), Temps, volumne of pour into mold. I cast mostly big for caliber bullets 335+ 38 500+ 45 400+ 40s and the long bullets seem to like a fast even pour. I have vented all my sprue plates to allow for over pouring. My bullets are very consistent when cast this way. I get the same size sprue everytime with the vented plate. I normally run 20-1 alloy around 750 degrees in a 100 lb pot. I leave the laddle sit in the lead , Has a washer fit to shaft so it holds on edgge of pot and can be dipped and left in place. This keeps the laddle hot and up to temp. I make a small "pour" over the pot with the laddle to insure its ready, Seat alighn the laddle to mold and pour I pour a medium fast stream and pour the ladle empty letting the vented sprue carry the excess away. I then dip the ladle and hook it letting the sprue cool and solidify, pick up my cap hammer and break sprue, tap hinge while opening mold, Bullets normally drop on opening, I close the molds and lightly tap mold handle at block to insure fully closed, Hoof sprue plate with hammer face and pull closed. Set over pot and repeat. I also flux / reduce every 100 bullets or so. My bullets normally run about 2 grns varience for the days session. Keep everything running the same and run as close to mean std as possible. A 100 lbs pots temps vary less than a 20lb due to the mass involved. If pressure pouring with a bottom pour pot its no longer a 20 25 or 10 lb pot but a 3-5lb pot. You need to maintain a consistent head level in the pot. Ladle casting fill the ladle to the same everytime. Make a small "pour" to insure spout nozzle is clear and hot. Allow for the sprue to cool and set along with the bullet. I ordered a brooks mold and it came with the vented sprue plate My bullets from thet mold were the best I had ever cast. Brooks also recomends the light dead blow / cap hammer and tapping the handle at the blocks to insure full closing / seating. I also perfer nose pour molds as I think they produce a better bullet

[gray wolf]

Thank you very much for caring enough about what we do,
and for taking the time to do your experiment. You have some very interesting results so far.

I thank you

Sam

[SciFiJim]

Good stuff! Consistent accuracy with cast boolits has to start with consistent cast boolits. I will have to try this myself to see what I get.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned

I have done the same "test" as Tim posted in the OP, and I have also done what 357max suggested
above.
I live a much "less stressed" cast boolits life now :)

[Hamish]

Tim, I've got to say that I'm a little disappointed, as the Bell Curve principle has alway's been a favorite of mine, being that just about anything can be shown to adhere to the principle. I say that somewhat tongue in cheek, as it is quite impossible to eliminate variation in weight and size, but only minimize it, and this small thing seems to make a huge difference in minimizing gross weight differences.

Before I got to post #18 where you proved out consistency per cavity, I was going to suggest that your experiment would be better served by using a one cavity mold to help preclude any false variables. Good thinking "registering" each cavity. (BTW, just how DID you mark them?)

I alway's felt that the boolit weights resulting in the bell curve were the result of technique coupled with the temp of the alloy as each cavity was poured. This would seem to take technique out of the equation. (assuming consistency, as alway's)

Once again, one of the members of Cast Boolits has taken a facet of the hobby that I'm sure many a caster has come to realize on his own, but by sharing has elevated the IQ in the room for all of us. Thanks Tim, and Merry Christmas to you and your lovely family!

[MBTcustom]

Good stuff! Consistent accuracy with cast boolits has to start with consistent cast boolits. I will have to try this myself to see what I get.

Watch out, it's fun and you will end up spending the whole day casting and observing, no matter how much stuff you should really be doing instead. LOL!
Just don't cheat and cull out the ones that kill your perfect Pikes Peak. As you can see, I started with a curve that looked like a cracked egg, and ended up with a pine tree.

[Calamity Jake]

Can I reverse that order? LOL!


OK, first of all, even if it doesn't make any difference down range, I consider casting and shooting to be two separate disciplines loosely connected at the hip. A person can be quite good at one and suck muddy rocks at the other.
That said, the only factors we have to judge our proficiency at the pot are:
Alloy
Weight
Appearance
Hardness/malleability
And ultimately, downrange accuracy.

The alloy is determined up front, or by laser XRF if you're lucky and really becomes the rose colored glasses through which you view each batch of boolits. The hardness can be tested but usually damages the boolit in some way (neither here nor there, smoke if ya got em). Obviously, shooting them is kind of final, no do-overs, no erasies, and you have rather decided to change sports there.
All that's left is weight and appearance.
All I did, was observe that the boolits produce a graph of proficiency if you will, and help you to see what is working for a particular mold.
I'm a bit of an accuracy junky anyway. I really really care about the things I make being superbly accurate, and it always bugged me that I couldn't see the subtle effect a certain change in procedure would have on my casting.
Neither here nor there.
All I am saying is that if you want to know how accurate you are with your particular casting technique, mold, alloy, cadence, and mental constitution, you can visually measure that by ordering them by weight on a piece of paper.
It does take some time, but the effect is fascinating!
Last night I had to try it again.
In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
The results were dramatic!
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0810_zps2bc3015e.jpg (sorry, I can't post a picture for some reason).
I still have some variances, but I'm almost certain that came from the times I put the built up lead in the ladle back into the pot. This cooled the melt, which in turn made the mold run slightly cooler. I wish I could afford a 40lb magma pot, but that just isn't in the cards right now.
But dang! I'm scaring the hell out of it with my Lee 20 pounder eh? LOL!

How that you have established a good casting technique(MS), run the test again on a cool/cold rainey day.
Your weight variation should drop another 10-15%.
I have always gotten the best fillout and least weight variation
on rainey days.

The technique of priming the spout was tought to me some 35+ years ago.
I learned the rainey day trick on my own shortly after.
A layer of something on top of the melt(cat litter or?) helps too and it allows one to add sprus back
to the pot without affecting melt temp as the sprus lay on top of the CL melt and run thru.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
The results were dramatic!
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0810_zps2bc3015e.jpg ...snip
Thanks so much for this, I never would have thought of 'priming' the spout. Besides some of your other findings here, I expect to be casting much more consistent rifle boolits next session.

[MtGun44]

Good work, Tim. This is exactly the definition of the
bell curve, you are showing experimentally for your process
(casting boolits, in the case) what modern "statistical process control"
is all about.

In large industrial processes, the process continues to run and
samples are pulled periodically (every hour or day, whatever) and
then they are tested against some quality criteria (such as weight)
and if too many are too far form the norm (the desired weight) then
the process is "out of control" and changes must be made. Your
visual methods are great, but you can learn the same using
mean and standard deviation, once you understand that these
are mathematical tools to calculate what you are showing
visually with your sorting.

You are doing a really good job of developing your own process
control methodology and standards for your casting.

Think about the company making a product, turning many thousands
or millions of items, and working to keep the price down so that
they can stay in business, while keeping the quality up - so that they
can stay in business! Now think of the guy on some online forum ranting
about the bad item that he got because the process got out of
control for a bit - even if you can prove that 98-99% or even 99.99%
of your production is within specs, that customer is still NOT happy
and some are pretty vocal about it.

I suggest that you would enjoy reading about "standard deviation"
and the meaning of being within 3 std deviations of the norm. It may seem
like goobledy goop, but it tells you how well your process is going.

You are doing a good job of doing a statistical process control lab, right
there in your casting room. Figuring out HOW to get the deviation down,
in practical terms is really critical, sometimes what you need to change is
darned hard to figure out. Those things that you are doing, are super
valuable tips.

Well done, good post, sir.

Bill

[Pat I.]

This thread isn't about shooting. It's about casting.
A good shot can win a silhouette match with almost any boolit that will shoot halfway straight, and I say hats off to 'em.

However, there is accuracy and proficiency at the pot also. I cast my boolits months before I plan to shoot them. To me, the two disciplines are distinctly separate. I want perfection in both, because accuracy is a way of thinking.

That said, I don't go to these lengths with pistol boolits. In fact, the only reason I did it this time was to find the most accurate way to use my Lee BP pot. I did just that, and I'm happy with the results.

I mean, if I can hold my head right and cast 1000 boolits that are all within .3 grains of each other, why would I intentionally cast like a slob just because it doesn't seem to matter on paper? We all want the best product we can make, so why not learn how?
I just don't understand why you would look down on a man for trying to operate with a little class.

Just because you don't mow your lawn, don't throw garbage on mine because I keep it trimmed, ya know?


Don't get so touchy because I wasn't giving you grief but do you really think you're the first one to weigh segregate bullets? Do you think you're the only one that cares about accuracy? I was fitting barrels, building cast bullet BR rifles, cutting moulds, shooting matches, and searching for accuracy with cast bullet BR rifles long before I ever saw your name on a website. Do as 357maximum says and see if you can tell any difference on paper because that's what matters unless I got my signals mixed up. Maybe I've been missing the point of guns and shooting all along and it's really not about how well a gun performs at the range it's really about convincing yourself and others that you do everything "Perfectly" and then talking about it on an internet forum.

[vintagesportsman]

Great work...my last batch of 200 had me throwing back 50% also. I was casting 170's and 205's in 8mm. The 205's were consistently near perfect at 700 - but not the 170's, I had to drop temp to 650 to get a shiny frost free projectile. So I split the difference and poured as fast as I could safely pour. Ran up 30-40 excellent bullets with little weight deviation (.1 to .2 at most) I enjoyed the work you did and it will be beneficial when I pour again.
Many Thanks!

[TheCelt]

This thread isn't about shooting. It's about casting.

I want perfection in both, because accuracy is a way of thinking.



True words well spoken. It's why we spend so much time prepping brass to get it "just right", sizing Boolits to the size a particular gun likes, weighing charges to within .1 grain and experimenting with lubes to find the one that performs best with a given set of variables.

Hat is off to ya Goodsteel, your research and report is what this site is all about to me.

[freebullet]

Goodsteel thanks for the info, you always come up with interesting stuff to share. You, Larry, 45, & many others are part of the reason I joined this site, thanks.

For most all pistol boolits I need wwaaaaayyyy to many to mess around, the wife just shootsem' like they are guna expire. However this is something I've been looking into for rifle boolits.

If we can introduce better consistency in casting, loading, & shooting then the entire experience is better for it.

[SciFiJim]

Don't get so touchy because I wasn't giving you grief but do you really think you're the first one to weigh segregate bullets? Do you think you're the only one that cares about accuracy? I was fitting barrels, building cast bullet BR rifles, cutting moulds, shooting matches, and searching for accuracy with cast bullet BR rifles long before I ever saw your name on a website. Do as 357maximum says and see if you can tell any difference on paper because that's what matters unless I got my signals mixed up. Maybe I've been missing the point of guns and shooting all along and it's really not about how well a gun performs at the range it's really about convincing yourself and others that you do everything "Perfectly" and then talking about it on an internet forum.

I will do you one better. What we do here is about "satisfaction" and how well we enjoy what we do. I tumble my brass not because it may affect accuracy, but because I like mine shiny. I load cast and load as consistently as possible, but because I like it that way. If it makes no difference to you, then cast and blast away. Without sarcasm, I wish for great enjoyment for you when you use that process. I appreciate that someone has shown it simple steps how to make MY process more enjoyable.

Yes, others have been segregating by weight. It is not a new concept. This thread is about how to pour more consistent weight boolits. This is first things first. The rest of reloading and shooting follows that.

[cbrick]

First thing I suggest you do is to go to southern Illinois and have Bobby show you how it's done in person.

2nd- take your 10 heaviest and your 10 lightest boolits mix them up randomly and go shoot a 20 shot composite group with a known GOOD LOAD.

3rd- take 20 boolits from the middle that all weigh the same and repeat the 20 shot group.

4th -pour yourself an adult beverage and cognitate on what you have learned

This completely misses both the point and the intention of the OP and the reason for doing the experiments. The point of the experiment was very simply the education of the experimenter. The point of posting it was to pass on what he had learned in the hopes that it might benefit others. My view of this post is that he was quite successful in both.

I understood Tim's intention right from the git go because like most long time casters I've been there done that. None of Tim's experiments in this thread were about how well they shoot, rather what causes this, why is that, what happens if I . . . how much the variations effect the groups is something time will tell and be part of the continuing education of Tim. Hopefully he will post those results also because newer casters that haven't done the painstaking time & effort will also learn. Sure wish there had been an internet and CastBoolits forum 30+ years ago.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Don't get so touchy because I wasn't giving you grief but do you really think you're the first one to weigh segregate bullets? Do you think you're the only one that cares about accuracy? I was fitting barrels, building cast bullet BR rifles, cutting moulds, shooting matches, and searching for accuracy with cast bullet BR rifles long before I ever saw your name on a website. Do as 357maximum says and see if you can tell any difference on paper because that's what matters unless I got my signals mixed up. Maybe I've been missing the point of guns and shooting all along and it's really not about how well a gun performs at the range it's really about convincing yourself and others that you do everything "Perfectly" and then talking about it on an internet forum.

Did you eat a bad piece of fruitcake or something?
Geez! Go pinch an elf on the hiney, drink some eggnog and chill out. LOL!

Look, I know I committed capital sin by measuring my proficiency at casting. I also took a bath, shaved the area between my eyebrows, and tied on shoes this morning! There is no end to the offences I likely caused you had you only known all of the ways I separated myself from the apes yesterday.
Now I'm really going to shock you:
I intend to measure
my
boolits
.
.
.
.
with
a
micrometer!!!!!!!

NooooOOOOooooOOOoooOOOooooOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOooooo OOOooooOOOO
The humanity!

Are you seriously getting upset with me because I measured something?
You better not ever spend too much time around me buddy. I'll probably drive you to drink. LOL!

[Bzcraig]

Seriously Tim! Dadgumit! I was perfectly fine with purdy boolits until I read this thread. For some reason I had been ignoring this thread, now I know why. Now I have a dilemma, be satisfied where I'm at or follow in the footsteps of the obsessed? Need to call and make an appt with my shrink.

[Echo]

Way To Go, Tim! I think I will try this mode, using an ingot mold instead of a ladle, pour a couple of seconds into a cavity in the IM, then slide the boolit mold over the IM to fill those cavities. Build a stage w/wood to set the IM on, to get to the right height. When one IM cavity gets full move it an inch and start on another cavity. Is that a plan, or is that a plan!

[MBTcustom]

Seriously Tim! Dadgumit! I was perfectly fine with purdy boolits until I read this thread. For some reason I had been ignoring this thread, now I know why. Now I have a dilemma, be satisfied where I'm at or follow in the footsteps of the obsessed? Need to call and make an appt with my shrink.

LOL!
Don't bother with the bell curve. Your boolits are perfect. Absolutely immaculate. Every one a shining example of perfect boolitry for all to behold......

See, now you're going to have to go make sure, arnt ya? LOL!

[fredj338]

The bigger the bullet the greater the ragne of weight variation. 0.2gr accuracy is easier for me to achieve with 124gr 9mm, but not so much with 340gr 45-70. I am perfectly happy with a 1gr variation in the bigger bullets. I know it won't matter as much as the case volume can very almost that much on those bigger cases.

[HeavyMetal]

Tim

Don't be discouraged by nay sayers you did a good thing by starting the wheels turning in a bunch of heads.

Some of us have done similar things and others are now considering changing how they do things to make it better.

How this "spark" of an idea is translated into action by the viewers of your post is completely up to them and out of your control so no worries K!

The whole reason I "Tune In" to this web site is to learn something and a day doesn't go by that someone has an idea here that either generates that spark or generates a new spark for something completely different.

Hope that makes sense to more than just me,LOL!

Keep it coming,

HM

[MBTcustom]

Tim

Don't be discouraged by nay sayers you did a good thing by starting the wheels turning in a bunch of heads.

Some of us have done similar things and others are now considering changing how they do things to make it better.

How this "spark" of an idea is translated into action by the viewers of your post is completely up to them and out of your control so no worries K!

The whole reason I "Tune In" to this web site is to learn something and a day doesn't go by that someone has an idea here that either generates that spark or generates a new spark for something completely different.

Hope that makes sense to more than just me,LOL!

Keep it coming,

HM

I am not discouraged in the least! If somebody jumps up at a party and screams that they don't bathe but twice a year, it really doesn't make me wonder if I could save on my water bill ya know?
You just kinda shake your head and say "WOW".

[Pat I.]

You better not ever spend too much time around me buddy. I'll probably drive you to drink. LOL!

I doubt it because I've been dealing with internet "expurts" for a long time. I do want to thank you though for helping me make the decision about something I've been kicking around for the last year or so.

[btroj]

I doubt it because I've been dealing with internet "expurts" for a long time. I do want to thank you though for helping me make the decision about something I've been kicking around for the last year or so.

Did Tim ever claim to be an expert?

Tim was challenged by another member, one who gets a fair bit of respect here I might add, to see if he could produce more consistent bullets. Has nothing to do with being an expert. It was a. Challenge to see what matters in casting consistent bullets.

I appreciate the report Tim. We often assume we have consistent bullets but unless we weight them we don't know, do we?

[Bzcraig]

LOL!
Don't bother with the bell curve. Your boolits are perfect. Absolutely immaculate. Every one a shining example of perfect boolitry for all to behold......

See, now you're going to have to go make sure, arnt ya? LOL!

Where is the sarcasm font? Seriously though, thanks for the thread. Those of us still new to this cast boolit thing welcome threads like this that educate, inform and challenge us. Though I have not read every thread on the site, this is the first time I have seen anything like this in print here. Don't know why but some guys just get their Fallopian tubes bruised awful easy!

[MBTcustom]

Where is the sarcasm font? Seriously though, thanks for the thread. Those of us still new to this cast boolit thing welcome threads like this that educate, inform and challenge us. Though I have not read every thread on the site, this is the first time I have seen anything like this in print here. Don't know why but some guys just get their Fallopian tubes bruised awful easy!

I'm a little worried. See, I recently decided to do a similar thing with my powder charges, and I was going to post about it, but I see that some folks might get offended.
There's no telling what the repercussions might be if I mentioned that I gave up on the Lee dippers and actually weigh every powder charge with a (gasp) scale!
Someone would probably accuse me of acting like an expert if I did that though.
Yep, I've got to keep this stuff under wraps.

[btroj]

Tim, are you one of those silly gunsmiths who actually measures stuff to make sure it is centered in the lathe?

What I get out of this entire thread is this- a guy can't determine how much weight difference matters in his rifle until he can produce enough bullets of a consistent weight to shoot.

Tim learned how changes in casting rhythm and method makes a difference in bullet weight.

For the new guys this is proof that rhythm matters.

The process matters in shooting. Can't get good results on paper without proper process control.

[cbrick]

I've been dealing with internet "expurts" for a long time.

Another one that completely missed the point and objective of both the experimenting and posting the results.

Nowhere in this thread or any other threads have I seen Tim even remotely hint at being an expert, in fact he asks more questions than most here.

Tim has a very healthy case of . . . What would happen if? How would this? What if I? Been there done that for many years and it's part of a well rounded overall boolit education. Even a failed experiment is an opportunity to learn something if you take the time to understand why.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Tim learned how changes in casting rhythm and method makes a difference in bullet weight.

For the new guys this is proof that rhythm matters.



At least that's what she said......
LOL!

[jmort]

"There's no telling what the repercussions might be if I mentioned that I gave up on the Lee dippers..."

I love my dippers, but I know my place as a more casual reloader and +/- .1, i.e. a .2 grain tolerance is O.K. for me. With the dippers it may be +/- .2 for a .4 grain toleance or intolerance. Striving for perfection is a worthy goal. For me hitting a paper plate consistently at whatever range makes me happy. If you read Lyman's Cast Bullet Manual 4th edition, there is a decent discussion about this topic by Mike Venturino and he does what you are doing. Hard to be consistent at long ranges unless you strive for perfection/close tolerances. I think there is room for everyone and you are at the high end of the Bell Curve.

[btroj]

At least that's what she said......
LOL!

Wow, Tim, just wow

[MBTcustom]

Wow, Tim, just wow

I know.
I'm ashamed.

[btroj]

I'm impressed.

That is exactly the sort of comment I would make.....

[bayjoe]

Would water dropping effect the weight of the bullet trial?
Does water dropping contort a long rifle bullet, so the concentricity of the bullet changes?
I also weigh my rifle bullets and use a plus or minus .1 grain. Pistol bullets I personally don't think they need to be that consistent for my purposes.
Goodsteel definitely got me interested in doing so experimenting.

[btroj]

Water dropping has been reported to cause long, thin bullets to warp. That won't affect weight but it sure won't help em shoot to straight either.

I don't see water dropping as having a real effect EXCEPT it can lead to variations in hardness.

Now there is a can of worms, how much variation is there in water dropped bullets based on how long from pour to quench? Tim, are you reading this?

[dtknowles]

Tim

Thanks for the report. I have to admit that my first impulse was, "it does not matter." I came around quickly and thank you for not only doing the testing but documenting it and sharing.

I have done the same weight sampling but without the repeat with process changes and repeat sampling. Clearly, it can only be a benefit to modify your process to produce a more consistent product.

Your casting consistency is certainly better than mine was when I did my testing, sorry I did not document my work to share it. I have not weighed a lot of bullets in years but I do have many unsized bullets that I could weigh but I am not sure they are all from the same casting session although each box is of a uniform alloy I may have cast them over a period of days. I do not have a good digital scale so weight sorting bullets is slow. I might be inclinded to weigh some bullets from my last casting session that is with a new mould.

In defence of those that say all that matters is how they shoot. I have taken to eliminating non-value adding processes in my reloading. I do not clean primer pockets, I do not uniform primer pockets or ream flash holes except for bench rest ammo. I only weigh powder charges for certain rounds or loads.

I do sort brass by headstamp and number of times loaded. I keep case lengths pretty uniform. I neck turn my bench rest brass.

Right now my ammo is mostly better than I can shoot. I need a lot more time at the range as I find that if I do not shoot enough my skills suffer. Time in the shop working on marginal improvements might be fun but time at the range is very much more fun and brings greater improvement.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

Would water dropping effect the weight of the bullet trial?
Does water dropping contort a long rifle bullet, so the concentricity of the bullet changes?
I also weigh my rifle bullets and use a plus or minus .1 grain. Pistol bullets I personally don't think they need to be that consistent for my purposes.
Goodsteel definitely got me interested in doing so experimenting.

Well I'm no expurt [smilie=s: but since you ask, water dropping does nothing to change the weight of the boolits unless you forget to dry them off (face palm).
does it distort them? It may slightly, but I confess I don't know, but feel free to post your findings here. Lord knows I need all the help I can get LOL!

[MBTcustom]

Tim

Thanks for the report. I have to admit that my first impulse was, "it does not matter." I came around quickly and thank you for not only doing the testing but documenting it and sharing.

I have done the same weight sampling but without the repeat with process changes and repeat sampling. Clearly, it can only be a benefit to modify your process to produce a more consistent product.

Your casting consistency is certainly better than mine was when I did my testing, sorry I did not document my work to share it. I have not weighed a lot of bullets in years but I do have many unsized bullets that I could weigh but I am not sure they are all from the same casting session although each box is of a uniform alloy I may have cast them over a period of days. I do not have a good digital scale so weight sorting bullets is slow. I might be inclinded to weigh some bullets from my last casting session that is with a new mould.

In defence of those that say all that matters is how they shoot. I have taken to eliminating non-value adding processes in my reloading. I do not clean primer pockets, I do not uniform primer pockets or ream flash holes except for bench rest ammo. I only weigh powder charges for certain rounds or loads.

I do sort brass by headstamp and number of times loaded. I keep case lengths pretty uniform. I neck turn my bench rest brass.

Right now my ammo is mostly better than I can shoot. I need a lot more time at the range as I find that if I do not shoot enough my skills suffer. Time in the shop working on marginal improvements might be fun but time at the range is very much more fun and brings greater improvement.

Tim

Well, it's like this: Now that I took a day to have fun with a friend making boolits, drinking coffee, smoking cigarettes, cutting up and measuring the carp out of everything, and finding that I can get more consistency by priming the spout, do you really think I'll ever just throw alloy into the mold with that pot again? It won't cost me a thing in the future, and I'm a better caster for it.
I posted it here so that if people are just too pressed for time, and too petrified of measuring something, and just hate casting too much to follow my footsteps, they can just read what I did and save themselves some trouble.

I agree with everything you just posted, and honestly, I'm not a good enough shot to make use of these supremely consistent boolits either, but I'll tell you one thing: I now know I'm a good enough caster to make those consistent boolits, and that makes me happy.

Now I have to just find a way to do even better.......

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well Tim, you stirred this one up didn't ya?

Nice job on showing everyone that they might actually start thinking about improving themselves.

I use this little measuring stick on virtually everything I do.

"I strive for perfection on everything I do,,, the closer I get the happier I am."

I also have a little saying that a guy once told me . He said,,, "If your work sucks,,, You suck !"

Let me qualify this a little for those who may take offense. You need to at least "try" to do your best on everything you do. The only person you will normally have to please, unless you are doing work for others, is yourself. Some people just have higher standards than others, so as long as you're happy,,, It's all good.

What's Phil say? "everybody is happy, happy, happy !" :mrgreen:

I have literally let projects sit for years because I reached a point where I couldn't produce the result I desired with the knowledge or equipment I had at the time. Then at some later date all of a sudden I figure out how to do something or acquire a new tool, and I can go back and complete the project that has been sitting. This has been especially true of gunstock work and my Jeep project.

On the Jeep project it usually takes me longer to figure out what to do than to actually do it, and since I am making that whole project up as I go anyway, I got 8 years in that one, so it kind of has to come out good.

With the gunstocks it is my reluctance to ruin a beautiful piece of wood by not knowing exactly what I should do in a given situation. You can't put wood back that easy if you make a mistake.

People need to extract "Personal Satisfaction" as much as possible, from everything they create or do. It makes life worth living. It gives purpose and it creates a yardstick to measure your progress in any given discipline. Competition is your friend and makes you better, even if it is only competition with yourself.

Not saying you should be looking for much satisfaction when taking out the trash, but if the result is worthy of note then you should puff up a little. I always let my wife know when I did it so I can get some acknowledgment from her that I lifted a finger and did something useful around the house.[smilie=p:

Lets talk about patting yourself on the back.

Whereas this is considered a bit much by some, I personally think it is a good thing since it speaks to that personal satisfaction thing I was talking about earlier. It also builds self esteem which we all know is so important because if you don't like yourself, probably nobody else will either. The way you pat yourself on the back is where the social component comes into play, and everyone has to figure this out for themselves and how to get by without looking like a self centered *****..

I also like to show people things I've done, and if it is worthy of note they will respond with compliments. However, lots of times I am showing what I've done so that others may follow, or so that they may pick up a new technique, or just learn something new. This is called sharing your work, and its a good thing.

With respect to boolit casting, one point that was brought up earlier but not emphasized, is "percentage of relative boolit weight." .2 gr on a 100 gr boolit is a larger percentage of total boolit weigh than .2 gr on a 400 gr boolit. So the bigger the boolit the farther you can be away from the norm and still have a good boolit. IE the parameters become looser the bigger you get. This should not effect you mentally.

Also I have found that short fat boolits are easier to get right than long skinny ones. Also Brass moulds seem to run better than aluminum moulds and Steel moulds seem to work well easier than aluminum ones do too. That said I have several Lee moulds that make very consistent boolits and have ran perfectly for my entire boolit casting career, but I have other much more expensive aluminum moulds that are a PITA and one in particular that I have never gotten even one good boolit out of. Holding onto that one until the knowledge to make it work comes along?

In closing I think you should strive to do this batch better than the last batch.

We all won't be watching,,, but "you" WILL KNOW! :holysheep

Just remember,,, "if your work sucks,,, you suck." Self damnation is the worst of all, so try to avoid it at all cost.

Randy

[MrWolf]

goodsteel, thanks for the post. I have not started casting yet but have ordered moulds on GB's and am scrounging around for lead. These types of discussions help to better familiarize the process and what to do and not do, at least for me. Thanks again as I really appreciate what is available to learn here.

[fastfire]

After reading this last night I used the (Priming the spout) method with a mold that was giving me fits and all is well now. I can see how priming would affect consistency, now......we need to somehow put a heater on the spout and hook it up to the PID controller!
Years ago I started weighing my J-word rifle bullets and ever since can not shoot with confidence without doing this knowing how much differance it makes.




Well, it's official. Priming the spout eliminated the preference between cavities. I took the boolits that were in the longest strings shown in the link up yonder and seperated them into individual cups by cavity. Then I weighed each of the cups.
Without priming the spout, I saw a very clear progression in the cavities. Without fail, the first two cavities filled would produce less good boolits than the last two cavities filled. The test I just ran showed that all the cups were pretty close to the same weight range. 1 and 3 were identical, and so were 2 and 4.
I'd say that's "Theory proven" with this mold and this alloy, and this crazy nut on the stream switch. LOL!

[SciFiJim]

I can see how priming would affect consistency, now......we need to somehow put a heater on the spout and hook it up to the PID controller!


Hmm. How about a constantly flowing lead fountain?

If there were some way to return the poured non boolit lead in a steady consistent fashion, the pot would not drain so fast.

[fastfire]

Got me thinking now. It'd about have to be from one pot to another.And there that sets up more issues that need work.


Hmm. How about a constantly flowing lead fountain?

If there were some way to return the poured non boolit lead in a steady consistent fashion, the pot would not drain so fast.

[btroj]

I don't think a PID helps as much as consistent timing, rhythm, and pour technique. Rhythm is what dictates mould temp which is, in my opinion, more important than melt temp. Vary the rhythm and you vary the mould temp, this is what leads to variations in weight and diameter.

Again, it is far more important to have a mental PID that control your pouring and timing technique than it is to use one on the pot. Of course this is only my opinion and I'm not even smart enough to be an internet expurt.

[popper]

Good work Tim. I have found the PID helps greatly. I also don't put sprue back in the pot ( why put dirty alloy in the pot?) until I collected a bunch and then I wait for temp to get back to normal, stir & clean before pouring. Running the spout (Lee dripper) helps by pouring properly hot alloy, not the cold drip. I did the same weight check on PCd 31-165 boolits, checking coating thickness. Got to +/- 0.5 gr. with the electric scale ( 0.2 gr accuracy), and 2 groups spread 1 gr apart, bell curve for each. All were cast in the same session but coated in 2 batches. So we do learn something from our experiments. I did do the weight test on a large batch a while back, it did have the bell curve but outside points were within +/- 0.2 gr. So the variance is +/- 0.3%. Assuming no voids the variance is in fillout & coating thickness. Will it make a difference, not with my shooting skills anyway.

[dtknowles]

I wonder if a dripping drip-o-matic would be like automatic spout priming?

Tim

[Hamish]

I also don't put sprue back in the pot ( why put dirty alloy in the pot?)

Huh? Was it "dirty alloy" when it came out a few seconds before? Or is this one of those "You're a dirty, dirty boy" things,,,,?[smilie=1:

I have reached one, concrete, undeniable conclusion because of this thread.

I need a another, larger pot.

[220]

Thanks for posting goodsteel, like a lot of others most of my casting is for pistol and after a fair bit of testing I know that in reality I can get more accuracy than needed with far bigger variations than you are chasing.
Doesn't mean I'm not interested in reducing my weight variation.
Anything that can help to reduce variations can only improve things.
Just because 8moa is in theory enough accuracy to shoot a possible score doesn't mean I want cast boolits that will only shoot 8moa.

[popper]

I think the dripomatic does help keep the spout hot. Dirty alloy as in oxidized, like the crud that collects on the sides & bottom no matter how clean it is when you begin. I don't flux when casting so any crud just stays in the melt. When I recycle the sprue, I stir, scrape (specially around & behind the pintle) & skim. Appears to work.

[TheCelt]

I think the dripomatic does help keep the spout hot. Dirty alloy as in oxidized, like the crud that collects on the sides & bottom no matter how clean it is when you begin. I don't flux when casting so any crud just stays in the melt. When I recycle the sprue, I stir, scrape (specially around & behind the pintle) & skim. Appears to work.

Hadn't thought about the oxidation, thanks for pointing that out. I'll collect sprues and rejects till I have to add metal and clean again while waiting for the pot to come up to temp. Dang I love this site!!!

[osteodoc08]

Goodsteel,

What was your total weight variance? Perhaps we can calculate a standard deviation and see how small we can get that with the techniques you are creating.

Thank you for the info on all this. Ill work on these techniques to become a better caster.

How do the "big boys" compare as far as weight variation goes?

I also vote for sticky status. This is good stuff.

[jonk]

I don't now and can't see that I ever will weigh my bullets. Obviously I reject those with overt flaws, but I have done the whole 'weight them' thing and compared. What I learned- ymmv, of course- was that with a 200 grain bullet, my castings dropped from the mold at 196 to 203 grains; and with a proven load, the extremes still shot a MOA group with a gun that normally does... about MOA. So I gave up on it.

I did re-try the expermient with a 315 gr minie in a muzzleloader. Same difference. not worth it.

[DavZee]

It seems that the temp of the alloy and the temp of the mold are critical in the casting of precise boolits.
There is a chapter on casting in the book " The Precision Reloading Guide". It is written by Roger Clouser and he advocates for the use of a thermometer on the mold in conjunction with the thermometer in the pot. Finding the combination of pot temp and mold temp that works best and keeping these temps constant turns out more consistent weights. He installed his 550 Deg. Thermometer by drilling a hole and inserting it with a brass shim. Precision Shooting columnist Merrill Martin was the first to plug a thermometer into a mold in his article in 1985.

[cbrick]

I don't think a PID helps as much as consistent timing, rhythm, and pour technique. Rhythm is what dictates mould temp which is, in my opinion, more important than melt temp.

Casting pace (rhythm) is of course important but . . . The most even paced casting rhythm possible would also need to match/change with the changing alloy temp or the mold temp also changes, rather difficult. As the level of melt in the pot with a thermostat control goes down the temp of that alloy goes up.

The PID can and does keep the melt temp even thus making a steady casting rhythm far easier and the mold temp more consistent.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I've been advocating casting thermometers, PID controllers, analog wall clocks with a second hand on the wall behind the casting pot, and a rigid attention to detail of rhthm, temperature, and timing for a very long time. I'm glad the subject has finally been breached in a way that didn't bring an avalanche of naysayers and accusations of "getting wrapped around the axle" or being "pedantic" with regard to going the extra mile to ensure that you are, in fact, casting the best quality boolits that you know how to, and refining your personal skill set and methodology in the same regard.

Hat's off, Tim.

Now, go back and ponder Mike's post on the first page. Bob knows a thing or two about this. I told you his method, and I still think it's the best, at least it was for me. If you do what Mike suggests, you WILL learn a lot about what's really, really important and what's not. I'll give you a hint, variances in distance will change the answer. You can do it with a bottom-pour, even a Lee (I do because of convenience and weather), but as you're finding out it takes a bit of work to get results. There's a reason why a #2 Rowel ladle with the spout bored out and a 75-lb pot of lead heated over an open flame works so well, and you've proved why.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel,

What was your total weight variance? Perhaps we can calculate a standard deviation and see how small we can get that with the techniques you are creating.

Thank you for the info on all this. Ill work on these techniques to become a better caster.

How do the "big boys" compare as far as weight variation goes?

I also vote for sticky status. This is good stuff.

First of all, I'm not "creating" anything. This has all been done before, but I thought some fellers might benefit from seeing it in picture form here on the forum.
Total deviation seems to be about .8 grains based on the last bell curve I posted (I might not understand what you mean).
I have no idea how anybody else does, but I'm quite sure that there are some here who's bell "curve" would be a straight line, one end of the bench to the other.
All I know is that this is an accurate way to measure your consistency. It is scientific and does not lie, as long as you keep your finger off the scale (you have no idea how badly I wanted to throw that 173.7gr boolit back in the pot before taking the picture! LOL!)
Again, this is not about shooting. You might be the best shot in the world, but that doesn't get you very far when you are sitting in front of the pot, because as far as I know, there is no way to mount a creedmoor sight, or a scope to the pot to any advantage. You're not going to impress the fellers at the range with your casting abilities if the paper doesn't tell a good story, and you're not going to impress any casters if you can't cast a consistent string of boolits. We are talking about two separate disciplines.

[geargnasher]

Tim, out of 500 I usually see an ES of about a grain, the ES being accounted for by three or four that looked good out of the mould but either caught a huge air bubble or I didn't get the blocks closed just right. Normally, I end up with two piles within half a grain of each other if casting .30-caliber, more like a grain if casting the big .45s.

Example: I just got through sorting a bunch of AM 31-185Gs that I cast last spring. Average with 50-50 alloy was 183.3 grains. Minimum was 182.8, max was 184.0. Take away half a dozen boolits and the 300-count pile averaged 183.1 to 183.7. I sorted two piles of about equal size from 183.1 to 183.3, the other 183.4 to 183.7. I didn't mark the cavities of this two-holer, but I'd put money on an alignment pin being a few tenths proud.

Now, during a casting session, I tend to cull boolits as I see defects (keeps me entertained for a second or two as the sprue cools), and with a bottom-pour I cull a LOT while casting, maybe 10% or more as a rough estimate, so it ain't that I'm all that good, it's that I pre-cull the worstest ones right on the spot.

Gear

[kenyerian]

This has been a great thread. I do weigh my bullets for my hunting loads . Any thing that gives me consistant results saves me time. My Hat's off to Tim for scientifically recording his results and sharing them.

[35 shooter]

Just read thru this thread and enjoyed it. Picked up some things to try next casting session. I've been trying to improve my techniques also but about the best i seem to do is is plus or minus 1 grain then i usually sit up all the next night weighing everything plus or minus 1/2 grain. What i don't understand are seemingly intentional jabs at a guy just running an experiment trying to hopefully find a way to shoot cast boolits with more precision. Benchrest shooters have been doing that for ages by trying to stick all their shots in 1 hole in the target. Their efforts and posted results have over the years virtually revolutionized the whole shooting industry from reloading dies, presses, to an effort to make more precision factory rifles, powder, and everything in between. We've all benefited from those efforts and experimenting whether we realized it or not. I personally see goodsteal as a guy that knows a lot about his preferred hobby as we all do if we've been at it long enough but also for every answer he finds, two more questions pop up. I've always thought that was a good thing? Inquiring minds just gotta know!

Will bettering my casting technique improve my groups? Probably not in and of itself. But that in combination with neck turning, reaming, neck sizing, measuring boolit length from the ogive for precise seating depth and a host of other things together might just get me from 1.5" to 1/2" groups. Okay sorry, just didn't understand some of the comments. Good thread goodsteal!

[Newtire]

Great work! I don't think I'll ever be able to have the patience to do anything close to this. I have weight segregated boolits before out of a one holer and then weight segregated cases that were cleaned in citrus cleaner inside and out and trimmed to the same length and gotten some pretty good results. "The name of the game is the same". Now how come I get that flyer that screws up my group-I think it's the guy at the primer factory getting that extra little smidge of compound into that one primer...? Maybe that extra piece of bacon I ate that morning?

[milkman]

If you check boolit diameter with a mic., boolits with a great deal of weight difference will also show diameter difference. Melt, mold, casting rate... consistency matters.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

If you check boolit diameter with a mic., boolits with a great deal of weight difference will also show diameter difference. Melt, mold, casting rate... consistency matters.

Woohoo, I'm a bit ahead of goodsteel on something :)
I forgot I did this almost a year ago
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?178180-Boolit-Sortin-Fun&highlight=sorting+board

[osteodoc08]

I'm all for scientific endeavors and applaud you guys, however, I just don't see 1-2 grains as a huge variation in the grand scheme of things considering the type of shooting I do. That said, all my hunting boolits I weight and only keep the ones within a 0.5gr window. The rest get culled.

I challenge you guys to bench the gun at a given distance of your choosing and see if there is any change in accuracy from your lightest boolits, target weight boolits and your heaviest boolits.

[Doc Highwall]

Jim, I really like that board with the slots to keep the bullets seperated I am going to make one for myself.
I have done this my self using masking tape on the kitchen counter and the board looks much better.

[prs]

Can I reverse that order? LOL!


OK, first of all, even if it doesn't make any difference down range, I consider casting and shooting to be two separate disciplines loosely connected at the hip. A person can be quite good at one and suck muddy rocks at the other.
That said, the only factors we have to judge our proficiency at the pot are:
Alloy
Weight
Appearance
Hardness/malleability
And ultimately, downrange accuracy.

The alloy is determined up front, or by laser XRF if you're lucky and really becomes the rose colored glasses through which you view each batch of boolits. The hardness can be tested but usually damages the boolit in some way (neither here nor there, smoke if ya got em). Obviously, shooting them is kind of final, no do-overs, no erasies, and you have rather decided to change sports there.
All that's left is weight and appearance.
All I did, was observe that the boolits produce a graph of proficiency if you will, and help you to see what is working for a particular mold.
I'm a bit of an accuracy junky anyway. I really really care about the things I make being superbly accurate, and it always bugged me that I couldn't see the subtle effect a certain change in procedure would have on my casting.
Neither here nor there.
All I am saying is that if you want to know how accurate you are with your particular casting technique, mold, alloy, cadence, and mental constitution, you can visually measure that by ordering them by weight on a piece of paper.
It does take some time, but the effect is fascinating!
Last night I had to try it again.
In this test, I ran the pot back at 700*, preheated the mold, threw out the first eight drops, and ran the spout for two full seconds before sweeping the mold under the stream and filling it.
The results were dramatic!
91283
I still have some variances, but I'm almost certain that came from the times I put the built up lead in the ladle back into the pot. This cooled the melt, which in turn made the mold run slightly cooler. I wish I could afford a 40lb magma pot, but that just isn't in the cards right now.
But dang! I'm scaring the hell out of it with my Lee 20 pounder eh? LOL!


Now you'r talk'n!

prs

[felix]

I challenge you guys to bench the gun at a given distance of your choosing and see if there is any change in accuracy from your lightest boolits, target weight boolits and your heaviest boolits.

Yes, the 222 bench gun on-hand can tell the difference in only ONE TENTH GRAIN difference at 50 yards. Keep in mind, though, a CAST boolit is not a SWAGED BOOLIT. The former has hidden air holes which DO without doubt throw booits randomly when compared to the latter. ... felix

[prs]

I don't open the gate 2 seconds before the pour, but most of one second. Most sprue plates have enough room at the heel end to accept that initial "cold" ejecta from the spout. That helps. I find new molds to be inconsistent regardless of prep effort. As they age to be old buddies, the result is improved consistency.

prs

[Pat I.]

Yes, the 222 bench gun on-hand can tell the difference in only ONE TENTH GRAIN difference at 50 yards..... felix

Really? What kind of groups are you getting at 50 yards that you can see a one tenth grain difference in bullet weight on the target? Inquiring minds NEED to know.

[BruceB]

The former has hidden air holes which DO without doubt throw boolits randomly when compared to the latter. ... felix

I would amend felix's statement to add the word "may"...... the cast bullet MAY have hidden air holes....

This one-tenth-grain variation showing up in groups with .22-caliber rifles also MAY be the reason that we see large calibers, over the long run, being easier to work up to good accuracy. Such minor variances have more effect on lighter bullets than heavy ones.

I don't weigh cast bullets, as a general thing. The shooting I do simply doesn't require such intense concentration on minutiae. Not that there's anything wrong with such detail work; I enjoy reading about the experimentation, and the results from it are often educational.

I found out THROUGH WEIGHING MANY LARGE BATCHES, that my visual inspection detects more flaws than does weighing. I attribute this to my casting method, which uses very high heat, which (I think) minimizes the possibility of internal voids in the bullets.

For example, I once weighed every bullet in a run of over 800 from an RCBS 2-cavity mould for the 416-350 design. The MAXIMUM SPREAD was less than one grain in bullets averaging around the 365-grain mark. Visual inspection rejected just three bullets out of 800-plus. They were cast from COWW at 870 degrees, and my Ruger #1 rifle will group TEN of them inside one inch at 100 yards....departing at 2050 fps.

Similarly, a Model 70 in .338 has grouped ten 220-grain cast bullets (LEES!) inside the magic inch at the same range.

With any luck, I hope to embark on a campaign this coming year with my first .22-caliber cast bullets. I will be using my current casting methods at the outset, but I'll be VERY curious to see if I have to go to the lengths reported in this thread. I may be an old dog, but y'all know that the old saying about 'new tricks' just doesn't hold water....at least, not for us bullet-casters!

[waksupi]

Really? What kind of groups are you getting at 50 yards that you can see a one tenth grain difference in bullet weight on the target? Inquiring minds NEED to know.

That comes in when you start playing the serious bench rest game.

[MBTcustom]

That comes in when you start playing the serious bench rest game.

Which, incidentally, Felix has. More than most.
Just sayin.
If Felix says he can see 1/10th, then he can.

[Pat I.]

That comes in when you start playing the serious bench rest game.

What exactly is "the serious bench rest game"? Are you saying that jacketed bullets are "serious" and cast bullets aren't? Are you suggesting that someone would test a heavy or light varmint class "serious" rifle at 50 yards either in a warehouse or outside? If you think cast bullet benchrest isn't as serious as any discipline out there my suggestion is you build yourself a rifle and come out to a match.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I agree-
When you go to cast bullet matches and Stolle's,Halls and Nesika Acions are on the line its serious! Thats what it takes to win Heavy or UNR class these days.You are not going to take a Mauser 98 put on a fat barrel and win a thing.Those days were 30 years ago when it was not so serious.

[45 2.1]

I've shot CBA cast bullet benchrest myself, in several classes. It's a competition among like minded individuals who have deemed it necessary to run an equipment race to win now. It was a lot more fun when it wasn't. What they represent is their membership who choose to compete...... not everyone everywhere. Several other organizations exist who compete with lead bullets also..... and have matches that draw large crowds. Personally I like the challenge of getting a common factory produced military or commercial rifle or handgun to shoot very good groups at longer ranges.

[TheCelt]

What exactly is "the serious bench rest game"? Are you saying that jacketed bullets are "serious" and cast bullets aren't? Are you suggesting that someone would test a heavy or light varmint class "serious" rifle at 50 yards either in a warehouse or outside? If you think cast bullet benchrest isn't as serious as any discipline out there my suggestion is you build yourself a rifle and come out to a match.

Ya'll are sure reading a lot into a simple comment. Waksupi didn't suggest anything, I believe he just meant that those folks that shoot benchrest and spend a lot of time loading custom ammo can tell when the Boolit (any kind) or charge is off a little, that's all.

[Pat I.]

What range did you shoot at and when and in what classes? Maybe we know some common people. Also where are the cast bullet matches run by other organizations that draw large crowds? I'd like to attend one if possible. This isn't about the CBA but there's a class for anything anyone would like to shoot and using the best equipment available and legal for a class doesn't make it an equipment race it means you have the sense to use the best equipment available and legal for a class.

[MBTcustom]

I'll tell you one thing. I'll never look at my $40 FA digital scale the same way again!
Had I but known the effect I would have by weighing a few lead objects, lining them up on a piece of paper, and posting a picture of this activity online, I would have bought one of the really good ones!
I sure can see what all the hype is about!

You guys crack me up. LOL!
It's just a picture for cryin out loud! Sheesh!

[TheCelt]

LOL, kinda drifted just a bit there Goodsteel, but I sure enjoyed your work.....thanks for posting

[45 2.1]

Also where are the cast bullet matches run by other organizations that draw large crowds? I'd like to attend one if possible. This isn't about the CBA but there's a class for anything anyone would like to shoot and using the best equipment available and legal for a class doesn't make it an equipment race it means you have the sense to use the best equipment available and legal for a class.

The ASSRA holds matches in central upper Indiana. Get their journal which lists the matches at Etna Green or do a search on your computer. This should be close enough for you... certainly within three hours away.

The BPCR matches are held across the country. There are some just north of Madison, WI. ... again within three hours of your location. Search BPCR matches on your computer for a more detailed listing.

In my opinion, best equipment for class is an equipment race....... and I don't participate in competitions like that. My current interest for the last 10 years or so has been semi-autos. Some of those things could give your bolt guns the shakes.......... and I'm certainly not interested in 200 yard and less target shooting.

[cbrick]

What exactly is "the serious bench rest game"? Are you saying that jacketed bullets are "serious" and cast bullets aren't? Are you suggesting that someone would test a heavy or light varmint class "serious" rifle at 50 yards either in a warehouse or outside? If you think cast bullet benchrest isn't as serious as any discipline out there my suggestion is you build yourself a rifle and come out to a match.

Silly me! To think what I thought he meant was people really serious about cast boolit bench rest. Learn sumpin new every day I guess.

Rick

[Pat I.]

The ASSRA holds matches in central upper Indiana. Get their journal which lists the matches at Etna Green or do a search on your computer. This should be close enough for you... certainly within three hours away.

The BPCR matches are held across the country. There are some just north of Madison, WI. ... again within three hours of your location. Search BPCR matches on your computer for a more detailed listing.

In my opinion, best equipment for class is an equipment race....... and I don't participate in competitions like that. My current interest for the last 10 years or so has been semi-autos. Some of those things could give your bolt guns the shakes.......... and I'm certainly not interested in 200 yard and less target shooting.

If you think BPCR or ASSRA match shooters aren't using the very best equipment available to them you know very little about BPCR and ASSRA match shooters or matches.

I'd still like to know where, when, and with who you shot CBA matches. Like I said maybe we know common people.

[Pat I.]

Learn sumpin new every day I guess. Rick

Yes you will if you pay attention.

[cbrick]

Your probably right Pat, we're so lucky your here.

Rick

[Pat I.]

:drinks:

[waksupi]

What exactly is "the serious bench rest game"? Are you saying that jacketed bullets are "serious" and cast bullets aren't? Are you suggesting that someone would test a heavy or light varmint class "serious" rifle at 50 yards either in a warehouse or outside? If you think cast bullet benchrest isn't as serious as any discipline out there my suggestion is you build yourself a rifle and come out to a match.


Nope, you got it backwards. Cast bullet bench rest is much more demanding than jacketed.

[Bzcraig]

I'll tell you one thing. I'll never look at my $40 FA digital scale the same way again!
Had I but known the effect I would have by weighing a few lead objects, lining them up on a piece of paper, and posting a picture of this activity online, I would have bought one of the really good ones!
I sure can see what all the hype is about!

You guys crack me up. LOL!
It's just a picture for cryin out loud! Sheesh!

See what you started Tim? Why you ought to be ashamed of yourself! I can't believe you even started such a thread! LOL!

Some people!

[BNE]

Goodsteel, I have been off the site for a few days and boy have you stirred it up! Good data. I have a question about post #1. You said....

"Every time, with startling consistency, the last cavity filled was producing the most consistent boolits. In other words, the cup that weighed the most, was always directly related to the cavity that was last filled."

Would it be possible that the difference you are seeing is due to mold expansion? My thinking is the mold is heating up as the alloy is filling the adjacent cavities.....The longer the boolit, the more effect this would have. Fixture expansion plays a big role in my line of work. We have to calculate its effect depending on what temp we braze at. A few tenths could make a difference.

Actually, What material is the mold made from? I could calculate the expansion and tell you how the volume would change...

[TheCelt]

Goodsteel, I have been off the site for a few days and boy have you stirred it up! Good data. I have a question about post #1. You said....

"Every time, with startling consistency, the last cavity filled was producing the most consistent boolits. In other words, the cup that weighed the most, was always directly related to the cavity that was last filled."

Would it be possible that the difference you are seeing is due to mold expansion? My thinking is the mold is heating up as the alloy is filling the adjacent cavities.....The longer the boolit, the more effect this would have. Fixture expansion plays a big role in my line of work. We have to calculate its effect depending on what temp we braze at. A few tenths could make a difference.

Actually, What material is the mold made from? I could calculate the expansion and tell you how the volume would change...

Now that's something to think on. By inference then I'd figure Boolits cast from a single cavity mold would be more consistent than those from a multi cavity mold all else being equal.

[cbrick]

I kinda wondered after reading that if Tim reversed the order of filling the mold. If the weight of the last filled cavity was always different try filling that cavity first for awhile & see if the results reverse.

Rick

[TheCelt]

I kinda wondered after reading that if Tim reversed the order of filling the mold. If the weight of the last filled cavity was always different try filling that cavity first for awhile & see if the results reverse.

Rick

Me too, it'd be interesting to see what effects the temp variation as the individual cavities are filled has from first to last is.

[btroj]

I kinda wondered after reading that if Tim reversed the order of filling the mold. If the weight of the last filled cavity was always different try filling that cavity first for awhile & see if the results reverse.

Rick

Ask Pat, I'm sure he knows.......

[Pat I.]

Ask Pat, I'm sure he knows.......

LOL. I see the usuals have been called to arms and my posts are bringing out all the finest. Ric where do they hold those 50 yard BR matches. I might be interested in giving them a try.

[357maximum]

A large pot of at least 40lbs, using a tweaked rowell ladle, a high speed fan, and having a real metranome or a good internal one will get you to the goal the fastest.


My My off the net for a couple of days due to an Ice riddled landscape with no electricity and somehow I managed to cause panties to wad up without trying.....what is up round here lately? everyone seems so tense...Hey Mods.....can we get a round of Paxil for the masses? OMG


My original post in this thread was not meant to bunch anyones underwear up and if the OP had done exactly what I said to do and in the order said he would have found THE BIG Solution by now. Consistency is vital in all steps of this "hobby", how could anyone think differently? Sorting boolits is no where near as good as making a great batch in the first place.....several members here excel at this, I have seen it and learned. What Tim is doing is treating the symptoms and not treating the disease is all I was TRYING VERY POORLY to say I guess.


Merry Christmas and please try to relax YALL :mrgreen:

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel, I have been off the site for a few days and boy have you stirred it up! Good data. I have a question about post #1. You said....

"Every time, with startling consistency, the last cavity filled was producing the most consistent boolits. In other words, the cup that weighed the most, was always directly related to the cavity that was last filled."

Would it be possible that the difference you are seeing is due to mold expansion? My thinking is the mold is heating up as the alloy is filling the adjacent cavities.....The longer the boolit, the more effect this would have. Fixture expansion plays a big role in my line of work. We have to calculate its effect depending on what temp we braze at. A few tenths could make a difference.

Actually, What material is the mold made from? I could calculate the expansion and tell you how the volume would change...

The mold is brass. It didn't matter which cavity was filled last, the last two were the most consistent.
However, I found that if I primed the spout before sweeping the mold under the silver stream, there was virtually no difference in consistency between the cavities.
I surmise that you are partially right, that the mold is responding to the heat, but I think that brass is such a good conductor that it is actually a direct result of the temperature of the alloy that is being thrown. It seems that anything that causes the alloy to cool slightly (like throwing the ladle full of priming shots back in the pot) would cause this instant variation.
That's just a theory though, and I would be very interested in your findings if you were so inclined to check on that for me.

More testing will be done. I had to put the pot away and get back to working on guns, but before I did, I took an old bustedazz Lyman 429421 mold and cast up about 50 boolits with it and laid out a curve. It was pretty sad. I was priming the spout like before and everything, but waiting 5 seconds between fills. This mold is pretty used and abused though. Just shows to go ya that every mold is a law unto itself, and requires different techniques to produce good results. That's where the bell curve comes in and tells you what works for each mold, and what doesn't.

[MBTcustom]

A large pot of at least 40lbs, using a tweaked rowell ladle, a high speed fan, and having a real metranome or a good internal one will get you to the goal the fastest.


My My off the net for a couple of days due to an Ice riddled landscape with no electricity and somehow I managed to cause panties to wad up without trying.....what is up round here lately? everyone seems so tense...Hey Mods.....can we get a round of Paxil for the masses? OMG


My original post in this thread was not meant to bunch anyones underwear up and if the OP had done exactly what I said to do and in the order said he would have found THE BIG Solution by now. Consistency is vital in all steps of this "hobby", how could anyone think differently? Sorting boolits is no where near as good as making a great batch in the first place.....several members here excel at this, I have seen it and learned. What Tim is doing is treating the symptoms and not treating the disease is all I was TRYING VERY POORLY to say I guess.


Merry Christmas and please try to relax YALL :mrgreen:

I'm actually going to do exactly what you suggest! I have a 40lb pot (not really ideal so I'm going to make a better one) and I'm going to order a Rowel #1 ladle, and bust out the files. Really can't afford to go see Bob, (although I would love to do just that and see about four other booliteers on the way) and I still like the part about the adult beverage the best. LOL!

Seriously though, I wasn't trying to treat anything. I was merely trying to find a way to observe my proficiency (or lack thereof as the case turned out to be), test the mold for consistency between cavities, and test my progress in real time. I just can't put a number on the "look" of my boolits, and it's way too easy for me to fool myself that way (I've got 18 years and counting of believing my own BS).
The scale is the only way I know to get a shaky idea of how well I'm doing without burning a couple kegs of powder, ya know?

[357maximum]

Suggestion......Get both the #1 and the #2 while you are making the order......large boolit and gang moulds need more lead. Babore would be another great one to "witness" he casts the most consistent boolits of anyone I know, but he got there using his pre clandestined anal nature and some of Bob's ideas methinks.

I was being dead serious with comment # 2 aND #3 IT WILL TEACH YOU ALOT....the adult beverage thing just helps one digest their findings. Captain Morgan and Jose Quervo expedite the "thinking" process immensely. :lol:

[geargnasher]

Oh. I thought you just didn't believe Bob or me when you talked to us on the phone about your casting problems two weekends ago.

Now, tell me, after all of that, and Mike also bringing the full broadside of the Voice of Reason to bear on you, why on earth are you going to buy a #1 Rowel? I thought you were paying attention to what your bell-curves were telling you.

Your "Tough Love" Amigo,

Gear

[geargnasher]

Suggestion......Get both the #1 and the #2 while you are making the order......large boolit and gang moulds need more lead. Babore would be another great one to "witness" he casts the most consistent boolits of anyone I know, but he got there using his pre clandestined anal nature and some of Bob's ideas methinks.

I was being dead serious with comment # 2 aND #3 IT WILL TEACH YOU ALOT....the adult beverage thing just helps one digest their findings. Captain Morgan and Jose Quervo expedite the "thinking" process immensely. :lol:

Dang, I take a potty break and you beat me too it! Tim is like me, you have to tell him three times how to do something and then let him try every other conceivable way first before he finally relents and figures it out. :bigsmyl2:

Gear

[TXGunNut]

Don't get so touchy because I wasn't giving you grief but do you really think you're the first one to weigh segregate bullets? Do you think you're the only one that cares about accuracy? I was fitting barrels, building cast bullet BR rifles, cutting moulds, shooting matches, and searching for accuracy with cast bullet BR rifles long before I ever saw your name on a website. Do as 357maximum says and see if you can tell any difference on paper because that's what matters unless I got my signals mixed up. Maybe I've been missing the point of guns and shooting all along and it's really not about how well a gun performs at the range it's really about convincing yourself and others that you do everything "Perfectly" and then talking about it on an internet forum.

At some point it indeed becomes a mind game, boolits with a very narrow ES in weight give us the confidence to believe that our loads will be perfect as well. I've studied the bell curve and use it to cull the extremes but have learned it's not everything, not even close. Take a box of your favorite premium j-words off the shelf do the same bell-curve exercise, you'll find that these j-words, capable of sub-MOA groups, vary much more than your selected band of the bell curve.
357Maximum and Pat I. have indeed uttered discouraging words but there is wisdom in them. Your culls are more consistent than premium j-words and may surprise you on paper even if they disappoint you at weigh-in time.
I once read about a budding BPCR shooter whose mentor made him shoot boolits he would have preferred to discard. IIRC they didn't affect his scores.
I applaud your results and methodology but I think your main benefit is increased confidence...but that's no small thing as we all know.

[geargnasher]

Something else that amuses me is the obsession over weighing powder charges to the tenth of a grain. Ask a professional, aggregate-score shooter what his tweak steps are to chase the node throughout the day. The answer may be surprising to many. Ignition consistency promoted by uniform-depth primer pockets, uniform case neck tension, and uniform headspace preload has more effect on POI than a tenth of a grain variance in powder does.

I weight-sort my test loads to eliminate the occasional casting faux pas from coloring data. I get a few of them because, like I posted previously, I use a bottom-pour pot the majority of the time and there are inherent problems to that technique. Couple a bottom-pour with difficult designs like Bob is famous for making, and you get what you got.

Gear

[357maximum]

TX

I have not weight sorted a batch of boolits in over 3 years, I know from weighing alot of boolits that for my purposes it is not needed (NOW) and I also know when I make a bad boolit by looking at the base each and every pour, when I make a pour I do not like (for whatever reason) the whole pour gets dumped into the sprue bin. That being said there was a whole heck of a lot of weighing done that helped me get to that point. Paying attention to those that know more than me was a HUGE part of that process. For me personally CADENCE is the biggest factor in consistent boolits and I know when I am not capable of that and resist the urge to cast at such times. There is "perfection" and there is "not good" most my boolits fall into the ground somewhere in between them lands and it is called "good nough". With consistent methods good enough can be quite accurate.

[357maximum]

Ignition consistency promoted by uniform-depth primer pockets, uniform case neck tension, and uniform headspace preload has more effect on POI than a tenth of a grain variance in powder does.

I use a bottom-pour pot the majority of the time and there are inherent problems to that technique. Couple a bottom-pour with difficult designs like Bob is famous for making, and you get what you got.

Gear

EXACTLY CORRECT, the case neck tension(bullet pull) is most important of the 3 in my opinion.

A good ladle will beat the pants off the fanciest bottom fed pot out there...just my opinion.... don't need no hate mail or nastygrams from the bottomsuckers out there. :lol:

[MBTcustom]

FWIW, I knew about ladle casting before I ever started this thread. Bob told me that the first step to accurate shooting begins at the pot. He told me to buy a Rowel ladle, and to use a 40lb pot, (as well as about a 30 minute argument with me that my trusty old RCBS ladle is not actually a bottom pour. Oy-vey....) He told me that when using these tools proficiently, that I would be able to drop boolits of extremely consistent weight and dimension.
I had some business to move out the door before I could act on his recommendations (I'm on a shoestring like a lot of people), but I started wondering how consistent I could get with just my BP pot, as Ian and several others use that tool with satisfactory results (Hey Ian, wanna sell me a ladle cheap? LOL!)
So, how does a feller relearn the casting process and closely monitor his skill, proficiency, and progress until he is satisfied that he's mashing the button that spits out the free gumballs?
Take a trip?
Spend some money?
Drink a tall glass of rot-gut tequila? (seriously Mike, Jose Quervo?!? I said I was cheap, but it's not that bad!)
How would you suggest I do that? All I've got is a scale, a micrometer, my eyeballs, and the little bit of grey matter behind them which causes me to put things in order. I have no jedi training, so using the force is out.

[357maximum]

Doesn't spending money always fix things?


Seriously though a robust turkey fryer unit, a 40lb+ pot made from steel gas pipe, a rowell, a high speed mini fan and some tutilidge from Babore is how I GOT THERE.....you may need other things, I do not know.

As far as Jose is concerned I like it with pickle or olive juice.....yep I am high fallutin. :mrgreen: P.S... I use Patrone when making margaritas, would not wanna pollute good contreau or gran marnier with Jose.........and Smirnoff/Popov is good with olive juice too in them LEANER TIMES. :smile:

[MBTcustom]

Try Rancho Alegre. It's cheap but it's 100% agave. Thats how I "get there". LOL!
I just ordered a Rowell #1 from Buffalo Arms http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160454&CAT=3900
I'm going to hit the scrap yard on monday and try to score a piece of 6" pipe to use as a pot, and maybe some more pure lead.

I dont like this. I wanna go back to casting cheap boolits that make 4" groups. You guys are making me spend money.

I'll post a lineup here once I get the hang of the new system. By golly, I better get a string of boolits that starts 6" wide and stretches down the driveway!

[cbrick]

Suggestion......Get both the #1 and the #2 while you are making the order......large boolit and gang moulds need more lead.


I just ordered a Rowell #1 from Buffalo Arms http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160454&CAT=3900
I'm going to hit the scrap yard on monday and try to score a piece of 6" pipe to use as a pot, and maybe some more pure lead.

I heard someone on the phone just a few days ago telling Tim to get both the #1 and #2 Rowell. The person he was talking to told him that #1 was great for small boolits and two cavity molds BUT large boolits and multiple cavities NEED #2 in order to pour enough lead. I guess some people just won't listen. If only one ladle is in the budget #2 makes more sense because it of course can be used for small boolits and one or two cavity molds. #1 on the other hand can only hold so much lead.

And then while I have nothing against Buffalo Arms are they a sponsor here? Roto sells the full line of Rowell ladles and Roto sponsor's this site.

Rick

[45 2.1]

Babore would be another great one to "witness" he casts the most consistent boolits of anyone I know, but he got there using his pre clandestined anal nature and some of Bob's ideas methinks.


You all got the same demonstration along with the instructions at the same time. Looks like he did as suggested instead of the little Lyman dipper, small aluminum pot and cold drafty garage............:bigsmyl2:

[45 2.1]

I just ordered a Rowell #1 from Buffalo Arms. I'm going to hit the scrap yard on monday and try to score a piece of 6" pipe (You would be happier with 8") to use as a pot, and maybe some more pure lead.

Gee, talk to a guy on the phone and look what happens.......................

[45 2.1]

If you think BPCR or ASSRA match shooters aren't using the very best equipment available to them you know very little about BPCR and ASSRA match shooters or matches.

Since you're the one who asked what they were and had an interest in seeing the matches, one would have to believe you didn't know of them (or you're playing games). Either way it appears you haven't been to either, so your knowledge of what is used is decidedly insufficient to determine that. You will be surprised what shows up in peoples hands though.

[MBTcustom]

Well, the truth is I can't afford to buy much of anything until after the new year (there's this dam gunstock duplicator that sucked all my time and talent and profits for the last month) and I move some piled up work out the door.
Secondly, my birthday is on the 29th.......
I say my birthday is on the 29th...:bigsmyl2:

And thirdly, I only own one four cavity mold that I will be using the dipper on, and this is it. The other ones are the lee 6 bangers, and the boolits I am dropping from them need to be minute of copenhagen can at 15 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger. At least, they used to be. I quit shooting like that a while ago. Ah the good ol days when lead and primers were plentiful........(sigh).

As far as rifle molds go, I prefer 2 cavity molds. The reason I was interested in this one is because I'm hoping to feed a semi automatic rifle with it too, and this is the way it came, and the price was right. (thanks Ian!)

[cbrick]

Gee, talk to a guy on the phone and look what happens.......................

Yep, I told him on the phone to get #1 & #2 Rowell and why. He said that he had been talking with you on the phone and you had told him the same thing. So what did he do? :veryconfu

Rick

[MBTcustom]

Yep, I told him on the phone to get #1 & #2 Rowell and why. He said that he had been talking with you on the phone and you had told him the same thing. So what did he do? :veryconfu

Rick

Succumbed to peer pressure.

[Larry Gibson]

Goodsteel

Consistency can be had with the bottom poor pot just as easily as with a ladle. It's simply a matter of correct set up and correct technique and you've found the correct technique for your bottom pour Lee pot by prepping the spout with a squirt of alloy before filling any mould cavity as I suggested you would. I'd also suggest filling each cavity as a separate step one after the other instead of "sweeping" the alloy across the sprue holes. Give each hole a good sprue before moving to the next hole.

No need to spend money you don't have on equipment when what you have will do the job just fine.

BTW; before the proponents of ladle pouring get a wedgie I've have ladles of various styles including Rowell's and ladle pour for certain bullets also. Both methods work equally well and one is not any better for consistency of the cast bullets you are casting than the other.

Merry Christmas

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel

Consistency can be had with the bottom poor pot just as easily as with a ladle. It's simply a matter of correct set up and correct technique and you've found the correct technique for your bottom pour Lee pot by prepping the spout with a squirt of alloy before filling any mould cavity as I suggested you would. I'd also suggest filling each cavity as a separate step one after the other instead of "sweeping" the alloy across the sprue holes. Give each hole a good sprue before moving to the next hole.

No need to spend money you don't have on equipment when what you have will do the job just fine.

BTW; before the proponents of ladle pouring get a wedgie I've have ladles of various styles including Rowell's and ladle pour for certain bullets also. Both methods work equally well and one is not any better for consistency of the cast bullets you are casting than the other.

Merry Christmas

Larry Gibson

Actually, I tried doing each hole one at a time, and at least with this mold, I was getting variances. I actually did quite a few bell curves before I decided "this is cool, I think I'll take a few pictures and cause some trouble" LOL!
I'll try it again though.

I'll tell you one thing that I have learned from all this is that no matter how vocally people may insist to the contrary, technique matters!
At the end of the day, I realize it doesn't matter if you are weighing your boolits or not, but it does matter that you are casting consistently. I just think that a lot of people have been doing this for so long, they forgot what it's like to learn in the first place. However, a scale and a micrometer are the basic tools of the trade here, and no matter what you are doing, you have to pay attention to the basics.
Just like with shooting, sometimes a bad habit can be learned, at which point it becomes necessary to go back to the basics of form, and unlearn. Usually this only takes a matter of seconds, and doesn't require busting out the training wheels, but if at any point someone is too proud to test themselves against a standard, that person is no longer at the top of their game.

What I have done here has really gotten back to the basics, but I am learning a new form, and its no skin off my back to ride a tricycle for a day or two to make sure I've got my head screwed on straight.
Sometimes, you need to wax a few cars, and paint a few fences before you learn to throw a punch, and I understand that.
And why not? I enjoy every part of this, and I almost enjoy casting more than I enjoy shooting. I'm going to be burning powder and lead anyway, and I'm not trying to keep up with local competitors, so why not?

When I started casting 18 years ago, my dad gave me one hour of instruction and I had to figure the rest out on my own. I've never really gone back to square 1, torn everything down and built it back up systematically, and now is as good a time as any. I'll be better for it when I'm done, and this may not be the last time I do such a thing.
I want to understand, but there are many ways of understanding something.

[dverna]

Once some of the "passion" and cheap shots are sifted out this is a good thread. Of course, some the "passion" and cheap shots are part of the journey - so that is "good" too.

I see both sides of this. Nothing wrong with striving for perfection. Nothing wrong with determining if perfection is of any real consequence for the shooting you intend to do.

Let's face it, for the great unwashed, a variation of 2 grains in pistol bullets is immaterial. They will continue to have fun and get the results they are capable of in spite of either their equipment, ignorance, incompetence, or laziness. Good 'nuff is good enough. Sort out the funky looking ones and get on with life. Like the song says, "Don't worry...be happy".

Rifle shooters have varying degrees of "needs" (wants?). When I get home, I will weigh 100 match .224 and .308 bullets that shoot into 1/2 MOA or less. I will also weigh a few hundred hunting bullets that shoot into 1 MOA. I do not expect my cast bullets to be any better so; in my ignorance, and at my level of incompetence, I will be blissfully content if my cast bullets are as consistent as commercial hunting bullets. For the lever action rifles, my expectations are considerably less so I pray my journey will be less stressful and I will not need to add either a metronome or stop watch to the casting paraphernalia I have accumulated.

I may be off on this, but at least in my limited experience cadence seems to be pretty consistent. About the only time it gets interrupted is for fluxing and adding ingots. Otherwise, the mold sets the pace. Pour...wait for the dullness on the sprue to appear, invert mold and lay sprue plate on damp towel (if added cooling is needed for that mold), cut the sprue, open mold, let bullets fall out, close mold and repeat. I do not admire my work very much while casting. I cast as fast as possible and still be comfortable and not rushed. No TV, radio, pets and no one else around. No smokes, no drinks, no food. What am I missing??

Anyway, Pat got a lot of "piling on" and most undeserved. He basically said "So what???" and that triggered a reaction A valid question. Most of those piling on came from people whose ability and knowledge I greatly respect - so I was a bit disappointed. Maybe Pat has been a problem before, and his question was deemed "inappropriate", but it was NOT irrelevant.

It is the season for peace amongst men. Surely we can agree to disagree, and attempt to learn from each other in a mature, respectful and thoughtful way.

Don Verna

[cbrick]

Seems some still don't get it. Tim's experimentation was for the purpose of educating Tim. He then shared what he had learned. He did it to test and see if he could improve his technique and it seems he was successful cause he learned something. Now in all probability he will shoot those experiments and the education of Tim continues.

How do I know all this? Because I did exactly the same thing 30 years ago and for the same reasons as Tim. I hope he continues to post his experiments, many can learn right along with Tim.

Rick

[popper]

IMHO, my approach to collecting & dumping sprue gives me a time to rest so my casting is more consistent. Even the alum. 4x for 100 pours tires me. While we are speaking consistency, what about voids. Heard about them, never seen one and not real sure how they can happen. Doubt weighing would find one and it it were there, doubt it would make a difference. How big a bubble can you trap in 500-600F lead? Sure, the outside cools before the inside, you can get wrinkles from too cool a mould. Thought & ideas?

[MBTcustom]

Dang, I wish I had saved a few of the ones I got when I first started with this! I had a few boolits that were about a grain lighter than the average, and I could actually see the bubble cresting in the base of the boolit. Every now and then, I run across one that is just really light, and it looks perfect on the outside. Don't quite know how that happens, but there is definitely something missing on the inside of the boolit, because the outside looks and measures perfect.
My theory is that when running a mold too cool, the boolit freezes so fast, that air bubbles can get trapped inside.

[geargnasher]

Yep, I told him on the phone to get #1 & #2 Rowell and why. He said that he had been talking with you on the phone and you had told him the same thing. So what did he do? :veryconfu

Rick

I just mentioned the #2 on the phone, and some tricks to get better results from the bottom-pour. Then I mentioned the #2 again on post #84. The resistance is strong with this one! Heeeheeee!

Kids these days. Buy 'em books, send 'em to school, whaddaya get?

Gear

[geargnasher]

BTW, using a ladle isn't just pure magic. There's technique to it, too, and a whole new skill set is needed to work out the details of getting consistent boolits.

I tore down my casting techniques and started over when I decided to start "getting more" from my rifles. One of the principle reasons for the re-evaluation was my apparent "need" to start water-quenching rifle boolits. You can weight sort, even size-sort, but are you going to HARDNESS sort? I'm not, though I might test a few random samples. If you want to find out how consistent you are in EVERYTHING, start water-dropping. That will teach you right quick to cull three or four pours at least any time ANY little tiny break the action occurs, even five seconds can make a huge difference in BHN. If a boolit doesn't shuck into the bucket with the others, knock it out over the cull pile. NOTHING goes in the bucket except good pours, all at exactly the same timing. Like a jet airliner, only keep the boolits cast at cruising altitude. Takeoff, climbing, circling a holding pattern before landing, etc. are times to drop boolits over the cull bucket.

Do this with your air-quenched boolits too, and you'll see a great improvement in consistency. Just because they "look good" means squat.

Gear

[Pat I.]

To get a bigger bang for your buck take the money you were going to spend on ladles and put it towards some decent windflags

[MBTcustom]

To get a bigger bang for your buck take the money you were going to spend on ladles and put it towards some decent windflags

It's not necessary.
We don't have as much wind down here as you do up there.

[Pat I.]

Believe me a 5 mph switchy wind will make a lot more difference than a few of tenths of a grain.

[MBTcustom]

Do I mount it on the pot, or on the ladle?

[TheCelt]

Merry Christmas to all, thanks for the info Goodsteel!

[Pat I.]

I think in this case on top of your keyboard would be best.

[MBTcustom]

LOL! Just kidding Pat.
Seriously though, we'll talk wind flags and trigger control in a month or two when I'm actually shooting these. Right now, I'm just focused on casting technique.

[cbrick]

Christmas Eve, geez where did the year go? I'm almost ready for Labor Day. :holysheep

Merry Christmas everyone. :mrgreen:

Rick

[MBTcustom]

I decided to give it another go tonight and see if I can glean any more info. I fired up the pot and intentionally did things different than I did the other day.
I ran it at 650F
I experimented with the direction of the stream as it goes into the mold.
I spiked the mold cavities with sprue plate lube (totally intentional I assure you! LOL!)
and I let the mold run cooler sometimes and hotter other times.
Here is the curve I got:
91537
Interesting results. It seems that it's much more likely that the boolits will go light than heavy if there is a problem, but there was no discernible difference between the wrinkly ones and the good ones. They were evenly distributed amongst the long string, and the sub par strings. This seems to give credence to the comments made that visually sorting is a more accurate test than sorting by weight.........except theres this one boolit that is way out of the curve:
91538
It seemed to be well filled out, and looked fairly good from the outside. Certainly as good or better than many that were in the longest string down the middle.
I decided to investigate, so I looked it over carefully and found the spot on the outside that looked jankiest, and filed away some material. This is what I found just under the surface:
91539
91540
A hidden pocket.
Turns out there were several like this inside this boolit. In fact, I filed away a few tiny pinholes when I was exposing this little void.
I wonder how it would have shot? If the voids were consistent and equally dispersed through the boolit, I could see it shooting in a similar way I suppose, but then again, with all this weirdness just below the surface, I wonder if it would be able to obturate the bore as effectively as one that wasn't a lead sponge. I suspect not.

[btroj]

Ok Tim let me ask you this.

Have you tried sorting the "good" ones visually and then weighing them to see how "accurate" that method is?

I have never weight sorted bullets but I do give them a good look over. When I want top accuracy I get pretty picky about flaws. I just wonder how valid that method is.

[cbrick]

And I'm curious about the alloy and 650 degrees. What is the alloy?

Rick

[MBTcustom]

The alloy is 50/50 COWW and pure.
My experiance has been that visual inspection culls some, and weight culls some. If the left one don't getcha then the right one will.

[btroj]

Vision sure is faster......

[cbrick]

Do the same test at 700--725 & see if you get similar voids.

Merry Christmas . . .

Rick

[cbrick]

Also add 2% Sn.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

I'm not getting "voids". I got a void in a boolit, and think popper was asking about that, so I investigated.
I had noticed some uncharacteristically light boolits when I was casting with a 10 second pause, but I never looked into it further.
I think I'll boost the melt temp to 800* and see if it's more consistent than casting at 700*-725*. I suspect that like anything else, there will be an ideal casting temperature.
I used to think that most of shooting and reloading boiled down to "stay on this side of the line" but the further I go along, I see that it's much more about staying inside the line"s". There's lots of things that will work but there's usually a "sweet spot" in anything I do.
You know, launching a rocket to the moon is only possible if you get all the "sweet spots" lined up at once. Making a car that lasts 10 years is about getting all the "sweet spots" moving together.

[country gent]

First Merry Christmas to all a Happy birthday to Goodsteel and a thank-you for your time spent measuring charting and sorting this out. I have found several things over the years that contribute to consistency all around. First the bigger pots have slower smaller heat variations as it takes more to vary 100 lbs of mass than 20 lbs mass. Molds all seem to want thier own way of being ran, Filling the mold cooling the mold and such all matter. I use a 100lb pot for casting with a weed burner and heat shield around the pot / burner. Nothing fancy there I do have a thermometer in the mix that I check fairly often at a glance. about every 100 pours or so I lightly flux the pot. I ladle pour with a modified rcbs ladle, the spout has been opened up to just over .200 dia. My sprue plates are all vented now. I cast slower than most but also am more concerned with quality than quanity. The vented sprues allow for a full ladle to be poured and a consistent sprue to be maintained allowing for the base to be kept molten for longer allowing voids to work out better. I also have several nose pour that seem to cast better than base pours do. One is a lymann 535 grn postell that I cast with before it was converted and after being converted to nose pour and vented. Bases come out much better and weights are more consistent after being converted to nose pour. Pace fill time and temps all have a direct effect. I suspect the added base plate heavier sprue plate spacer rod all added mass to the mold and thus cosistency to its holding temperature. I also have a brooks nose pour adjustable cup based that is the same as the postell mold I converted. I dont pour to a sprue I pour a full ladle thru te mold and allow the extra to vent of keeping everything hot as long as possible. I pour with the mold over the pot helping to hold maintain heat also. After the mold is filled it is moved over the sprue container and about 8-10 sec allowed for sprue and bullet to cool. Sprue is then cut and base inspected vissually. mold is opened and bullet dropped out on a towel. Mold is closed by hand and sprue closed with small soft faced hammer. I then give 3 light taps on mould handles at the block pin area to ensure its fully closed / seated/ Back over pot and raise ladle out of lead make a small pour thru nozzle and fill mold again pouring the full ladle thru. I get very consistent bullets this way.
Another thing to remember is a 1% variation on a bullets wieght is variable due to wieght 1% of 500 grns is 5 grns 1% of a 180 grn is 1.8 grns and a 55grn is .55 grn. All 1% variation but a big diffrence in actual wieght there. A 1/2 grn variation on a 550 grn bullet is actually .1% . Something to think about and maybe give a little added pespective. On these big bullets 2 grns is actually .5% varience. I am interested in this thread and following it closely. I wonder if spinning at high rpms would show Balance and voids cosistency better than wieght.

[MBTcustom]

Country Gent, Thanks for the information! Very well written, and easy to visualize.
I'm thinking I may not fully understand some of the terms you use. Especially the part about venting the sprue plate. I have broken the edge of my molds to make a single vent line right down the middle of the mold, but I get the feeling you are talking about something a little more aggressive than that, yes?

Have you ever done a graph like I have shown here? I'm actually shocked that I am getting as good results as I have posted. Some of my old molds have been rode hard and put up wet so many times, I don't think they will hang with these new high quality ones from Accurate, Mi-heck, NOE, and such. I busted out a few of the old ones, and tried this a while ago, and it was rather dismal.

[dverna]

Goodsteel

There is a sweet spot and sweet area. In the process industry we try to determine a set of parameters that permits a wide "process window". That means that we can produce a good product within a relatively wide (but controllable) variation in the process parameters. For example, an alloy that casts well within range of +/- 25 degrees is better than one that works well with a temperature range of +/- 10 degrees. Similarly, an alloy and/or mold that produces good bullets with a mold temperature that varies +/- 25 degrees is preferred to one that gives superior results at +/- 5 degrees because holding +/- 5 degrees is too "tight" a process window and difficult too maintain. (We all have molds that seem to produce good bullets almost every time - and others that are "picky" - why???).

This is one reason PID controllers have a benefit for the casting process. They allow at least one parameter (alloy temp) to be controlled and held relatively constant.

With a bottom pour pot, we use guides (or should) to maintain the same distance from the spout to the sprue. We also should attempt to maintain the level in the pot consistent as possible - but the nature of the process makes this nearly impossible unless we have a secondary pot to "top off" the primary pot. It could be one reason why some people get better results with a good consistent ladle technique. They reduce the "head" variation between pours.

The "cadence" spoken of affects mold temperature. Mold temperature (and how much of "puddle" we use) will affect shrinkage and weight. One of the reasons I believe the old 10 cavity H&G mold was such a great mold was the trough they used to maintain a good supply of melt over the cooling bullets - but that is supposition on my part.

This may get some push back - but it is impossible to cut every cavity in a multi-cavity mold the same way. "Good" molds will have less variation per cavity than "poor" molds but all of them will have some variation. Again, reducing variation will result in more consistency. Common sense tells us a single cavity mold will be more consistent than a four cavity mold. But unless we are looking for that last 1/4 MOA (or whatever it works out to be), that consistency may have negligible practical value - but it is still there.

I really like the work you are doing and your willingness to share what you are discovering. Many will learn from your work.

Don Verna

[MBTcustom]

Hell, I'm doing it anyway, why not post about it? LOL!

[Doc Highwall]

About the technique we use and how we picture things in our mind and then explain those techniques to other people might not be reality. This was learned a long time ago when I belonged to a bass fishing club and at a meeting we were talking about our techniques. One of the members mentioned that what he had learned watching another member that was good, was how this member was reeling in the lure and the fact that this person did not even realize something that he was doing while reeling so when he explained his technique it was left out. In other words through the eyes of a care full observer what he thought he was doing and explaining about his technique in reality was just slightly different but was actually important.

I know about the quest for knowledge and what can happen when you ask yourself “What if” and the roads that it will lead you down. I am not afraid to share my knowledge with others and like someone here has as their byline “Ask me how I know” when we mostly share our knowledge about something that does not work.

[Larry Gibson]

Do the same test at 700--725 & see if you get similar voids.

Merry Christmas . . .

Rick

+1

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

When you get done with this test you will have to investigate why you get more consistent boolits when you are hopped up on caffeine and your hands are shaky.....oh wait maybe I should do that one. .....actually I sit my mould in front of a high speed fan that imparts some subtle vibration to the table while the sprue sets and as long as I sit the mould on the clay floor tile sitting in front of the fan everytime all is good. If I happen to NOT sit the mould down on the clay tile while the sprue is "galvanizing over" the boolit will almost always come out a 1/2 grain lighter. There is some good to be had from consistent vibration....I think that motion/vibration is why Dillon progressive powder measures are so accurate too, but have never investigated the phenomena.

All the little consistent inconsistencies add up.....looking at your boolit graph you are doing something subtly different on some of the casts......pot intricacy/cadence/tempo/galvanizing time/cooling time all need to be as close to the same as we humans can get them.......to be dead honest you are getting better more consistent results than I ever did with a casting pot with a hole in the bottom of it. I simply did not make a good bottom sucker apparently.

Merry Christmas

[Larry Gibson]

91555
Also add 2% Sn.

Rick

+1. Add the 2% tin to the COWWs before mixing with the lead or add 1% to the 50/50 mix. I do appreciate all the work goodsteel is putting into this, probably good for many newcomers to cast to see what casting inconsistencies and an improper blend of alloy for the temp cast at can get you in the way of inconsistent bullet weights. Too often we see advise to use "50/50 and cast at 650" w/o understanding what really is happening or not happening to the quality of the cast bullets. Many of us have already gone through this "experimentation" many years ago and probably repeated it several times in the interim. The advice is posted in this thread on what to do to correct the problems goodsteel is kind enough to demonstrate. Excellent thread goodsteel :-D

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

[COLOR="#800080"] I sit my mould in front of a high speed fan that imparts some subtle vibration to the table while the sprue sets and as long as I sit the mould on the clay floor tile sitting in front of the fan everytime all is good.

I've given this some thought before, & I have a vibrator out of old hospital bed I've thought about screwing
to the underside of my casting bench for this very reason. I just might have to try it now

[popper]

Thanks Tim. Please check the inside of the rest and find the other voids. :kidding: Now we know what to avoid in getting excellent boolits. I've broken a bunch in half and not found any void but now I know how big they can get. Btroj started a thread about swaging these to get better boolits but thinking about it, how could you get the air out of a solid. I remember a Trumph gear box full of cast gears that had lots of voids, and they always broke at the voids.

[felix]

I am interested in this thread and following it closely. I wonder if spinning at high rpms would show Balance and voids consistency better than weight.

Yes, indeed! I have been behind that solution from the beginning of my boolit shooting. The person who I asked to make the device for me said I could shoot BR bullets for the rest of my life for the same cost of building it back then. Well, it could be much cheaper now, especially if I did the programming of the electronics for him. Anyway you look at it, it is far cheaper to shoot larger targets and learn to be just as satisfied. ... felix

P.S. The same person did do a couple of triggers for me. I thought I could shoot better with ball bearings being used as "sears". He modified stock Remington triggers (1960's model) into various configurations for me to test in his office as applied to my bench gun. They had to be a legal configuration, so no electronics. Long story short, they were far too sensitive for me, even though they were adjusted to eliminate specific stepwise complaints. The fact dealt with what I could get used to on the firing line. Answer: None. ... felix

[country gent]

Tim the vented sprue plate is basically a groove of about 1/8" radious to the side of the plate from the sprue hole that allows lead to "flow" controlled off the side of the mold allowing the bullet to be kept molten much longer. Look at Brooks molds it may show on his site. I have wieghed my bullets from sessions to sort for voids that may occur other than the oddballs like you are showing I am normally about a 2 grn spread on 500-550 grn bullets I sort by wieght and shoot in .5 grn batches. I have tried weighing and shooting from light to heavy in .1 grn increments and seen no real improvement in group sizes. I normally cast from 20-1 alloy so flow is improved with that alloy also. I have a malcomn scope to be mountedon the BPCR rifles so maybe testing again will show somethingdiffrent with it, my eyes arnt what they used to be before the MS. I beleive a balance test at close to the rpms of the bullet in flight would show alot. There used to be a gage / tool that sorted for consistency called a Juneke gage ( I believe) that sorted jackets by concintrecity with an electric resistence, It might show voids also. Had a friend that had access to one and for awhile he sorted 168 sierra matchkings for 600 yds out to 1000. Not sure if it made a big diffrence or not. In all honesty you can spend alot of time energy and money sorting and possibly not see a diffrence. I sorted for awhile on a 100x comparator checking ogive and boattail forms. As we have known bases are critical area and a void offcenter will definitly cause balance ( yaw) issues with a bullet. I havent really figured a good way to safely spin a bullet between cup points at the rpms need to show the vibration ( balance) issues.
Alloys make a diffrence in consistency also alot of alumnium, zinc, mish metal alloys are injected under pressure to get the strength fill out of parts in industry settings, ( I worked as a tool and die maker in the auto industry our plant ad a die cast area and while nott involved with it I spent alot of time talking with the diecast die makers learning). Casting temps can be critical, mould temps are critical, fill temps and pressure are important. Some of our cold poured plastic / poly urethane parts were poured and held in a vacum to pull air out also. At times vibration was also used to work air out and improve fill. At the plant there were 3 50,000 lb furnaces for aluminum this was then transfered to the casting machines where temps were also maintained.

[MBTcustom]

Country Gent, I know all too well what you struggle with when you talk about MS. My wife has that disease as well. Casting and boolitry is what helps keep me sane.

Thanks all you fellers for the info. I'm not discounting anything that has been posted.
Several have mentioned that I should add tin to the mix. I am intentionally not doing that. I carefully control all my alloys, and nothing goes into my pot that I don't know within .1% what is in it. I have the ability to make whatever I care to use. In this case, I emptied out a pot of metal that was 94.6 % lead, 2.1% tin, and 3.3% antimony in order to make this pot of 50/50 metal (which is about .5% tin and 1.4% antimony in case anybody is interested).
Yeah, I have had every single batch of lead in my stash XRF tested. Was that overboard? (and all across the country, booliteer's heads exploded). LOL!

[dtknowles]

Hell, I'm doing it anyway, why not post about it? LOL!

I weighed the rest of a batch of 22 bullets I cast most recently, a few hundred of them are already loaded in .22 Hornet ahead of a light load of Green Dot to be used as .22 RF replacement ammo. I have shot maybe 40 of them already that I loaded to two different overall lengths. The shorter ones shot better so that is how I loaded the few hundred I put on the shelf.
91579
I will toss the low weight ones. Clearly not a bell curve but a strong peak around 43.7 / 43.8 gr.

There might have been some low weight bullets in the ones I tested and on my shelf but the load tested was acceptable to me, IIRC they shot under a inch at 50 yards for 5 shot groups from my Ruger #3. These were loaded unsized (dropped .226 to .227), pan lubed 50/50, in unsized brass. The bullets are probably harder than need be as I cast them from my approximation of Lyman #2 (mixture of range scrap, monotype and Tin solder) I used a Lee 5# bottom pour pot that most times drips and for this mold I poured on the edge of the sprue hole/plate not right in the hole and leave a large sprue. It is a three cavity mold.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

That is an excellent curve there Tim. Just cause it's not curvy, doesn't mean it's not a curve ya know?

I ran one more batch myself tonight. This time I ran the pot at 790*. I kept the same cadence that I used previously, and I made some interesting observations.
1. Contrary to what I would have thought, I experienced much worse base fillout with the hotter alloy than with the cooler alloy.
2. Contrary to what I would have thought, the boolits were shinier on the noses and I even got a few ventline whiskers.
3. Contrary to what I would have thought, the target weight of 173.3 grains did not change with the higher temperature! Only the variances did! Through all of the tests, 173.3 has always emerged as the clear winner in the lineup with that particular weight running the longest line of boolits on the paper. All I succeeded in doing by monkeying with the temperature was to cause the base of the Christmas tree to swing it's hips left or right. I can effect the variances and the spread of them, but the tip of the curve is constant within .1 grains. Am I the only one who finds that just a teeny weeny bit fascinating!?!?!?
It seems that the only way I can effect the target weight of the mold is with alloy. Temperature may throw me a bunch of curves, and spread the base of the bell from one end of the page to the other, but only alloy can shift the point of that stack even .1gr up or down.

I'm not done with this test by a long shot. This is good stuff!

Oh, BTW, Here's the lineup:
91585

[waksupi]

Just to let people know, Joe's input in any way, shape or form are not to be posted here. There is a reason he was banned from here twice, and will not be allowed to cause trouble from afar.

[MBTcustom]

Just to let people know, Joe's input in any way, shape or form are not to be posted here. There is a reason he was banned from here twice, and will not be allowed to cause trouble from afar.

That includes inflammatory references to him. When a member is banned, they are out. Taking cheap shots at a banned member is as inflammatory as posting their comments for them. Neither will be tolerated.

[dtknowles]

That is an excellent curve there Tim. Just cause it's not curvy, doesn't mean it's not a curve ya know?.......I'm not done with this test by a long shot. This is good stuff!

Oh, BTW, Here's the lineup:
91585

I might weigh some more but not so much as I don't have an accurate enough digital scale and using the beam balance is very slow.

I think it is an indication of greater consistency if the curve is peaky and not so much bell shaped as the standard deviation will be smaller. The SD for this sample was 0.21 gr. and the extreme spread was 1.0 gr.

I can use my digital scale to screen for low weight bullets as once it warms up it is repeatable it just only has a resolution of a few tenths of a grain. I think that would shrink groups a little as it will cut the flyers due to voids that make out of balance bullets. It is the low weight bullets that bother me.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

I couldn't hep m'self! I had to give it one more shot tonight.
I was thinking that I started this journey casting at 700* and the results were dismal.
I then went to 725* for several tests
Then, earlier today I went to 790* and it seemed that I had crossed over the effective temperature range of this alloy with this mold.
I was thinking that I needed to hit it somewhere in between 790* and 725*, so I set the pot at 740* and started casting while I was on the phone with sgt. mike (it was a joint casting operation from afar LOL!). I just kept an even pace and enjoyed myself.
The result was pretty solid I thought.
91606

[cbrick]

Just to let people know, Joe's input in any way, shape or form are not to be posted here. There is a reason he was banned from here twice, and will not be allowed to cause trouble from afar.


That includes inflammatory references to him. When a member is banned, they are out. Taking cheap shots at a banned member is as inflammatory as posting their comments for them. Neither will be tolerated.

Huh? I've read this entire thread, much of it a couple or three times. I didn't see any reference to Joe, how did this crop into this thread and what did/does he have to do with it? :veryconfu

Rick

[btroj]

It has been edited out. I found it to be but a minor annoyance but I'm not a mod.

[SciFiJim]

Welllll my casting did not go so well, I must add a blooming rest and buy a thermometer or switch over to the Lee drip o'matic I did not weigh the pressure casted one yet but here is the photos of the 1/2" drop. Attempting to use the same method of priming not priming that Goodsteel was using prior to filling the cavities The mold was the NOE 452-200gr Brass RG2 that was on the GB on here.

91617
91618

Really not disappointed with my results just need to work on my method a bit to get the results I would like. I would Like to point out that none of the boolits was harmed in any way during the pictures of this and they will be officially retired to the Goodsteel 45 ACP retirement home:-D

P.S. I post the results on the pressure cast tomorrow

One of the things that may be a factor for you, it the fact that you are casting with a RG mold with the flat point pins in. I have noticed that there is some play in where the flat point pins come to rest and that affects the nose of the boolit. Some come out flat and some come out with a small depression. Looking at the nose of your boolits, I see that it had some play there as well. That probably had something to do with the spread of weights.

[MBTcustom]

When you get done with this test you will have to investigate why you get more consistent boolits when you are hopped up on caffeine and your hands are shaky.....oh wait maybe I should do that one. .....actually I sit my mould in front of a high speed fan that imparts some subtle vibration to the table while the sprue sets and as long as I sit the mould on the clay floor tile sitting in front of the fan everytime all is good. If I happen to NOT sit the mould down on the clay tile while the sprue is "galvanizing over" the boolit will almost always come out a 1/2 grain lighter. There is some good to be had from consistent vibration....I think that motion/vibration is why Dillon progressive powder measures are so accurate too, but have never investigated the phenomena.

All the little consistent inconsistencies add up.....looking at your boolit graph you are doing something subtly different on some of the casts......pot intricacy/cadence/tempo/galvanizing time/cooling time all need to be as close to the same as we humans can get them.......to be dead honest you are getting better more consistent results than I ever did with a casting pot with a hole in the bottom of it. I simply did not make a good bottom sucker apparently.

Merry Christmas

I was thinking of going down to a local store (I think they call it cupids or something) and finding something that vibrates to tape to one of the handles of my mold. I really wonder if that would make a difference. I completely agree with you about the Dillon powder measure BTW.

[Down South]

I read a thread here once a year or so ago that a guy had some type of vibrator top that he set his moulds on when pouring.

[country gent]

With the poly urethane at work the vibrration did okay but it toof 24 hours to cure also on lead it may help some but also may numb your hand with longer sessions. Its an Idea another plus to the added vvibration is it may help to seat the mold closed the same everytime. with the name of cupids there may be a vibrator with a band to hold it on the mold handle LOL. Brooks moulds does have a pic of the vented sprue plate he makes under accesories on his web site also. Its only 28 degrees here right now so now casting for me today. I just dont dare to risk the cold for extended periods of time. I normally do most of my casting spring and fall in 35-50 deg temps. Im getting ready and have close to 100 lds in the pot waiting on me.
Goodsteel while you are measuring you consistency agianst all It was my job to make the gages fixtures to measure test in the industry also. Im interested in reducing the voids and hidden areas as they will cause more issues than anything vibration may be a step in the right direction. Possibly a heat source to maintain a liquid form longer at temp also. I run 700-750 degrees normally. Would be interesting to see the heat ranges thru out the pots from bottom to top. I know heat rises but closer to heat source may be hotter than farther away also. A pot with bands sides may be hotter than middle. May only be a few degrees or it could be more. I use a flame on the bottom that flows around sides in a heat shield so it should be fairly consistent. Also leaving the ladle "float in the mix full maintains its temp better also. I get better boolits with the vented sprues but they allow me to keep bullet hot longer and for the same size sprue everytime. Again a form of consistency. Every step has to be done the same for the same results.

[WILCO]

Interesting, but does the less than 1% difference in weight really make any difference by the time the bullet gets to the target?

Depends on your "Shooting" goals. As we all know, accuracy is really consistency when handloading ammunition. Like you, I'm not at this level of casting or shooting, but it's still great to read of these observations.

Brilliant work Tim. I tip my hat to you.

[WILCO]

Huh? I've read this entire thread, much of it a couple or three times. I didn't see any reference to Joe, how did this crop into this thread and what did/does he have to do with it? :veryconfu

Rick

Joe who? Sorry, but curiosity has gotten the better of me.

[Larry Gibson]

That includes inflammatory references to him. When a member is banned, they are out. Taking cheap shots at a banned member is as inflammatory as posting their comments for them. Neither will be tolerated.

No "cheap shot" taken. Simply gave example of what some consider "good cast bullets" and what some of us don't. Thought seeking consistent and the best cast bullets was pertinent to the topic of this thread.

Rest of the original post here deleted.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Joe is just a member whom was banned because of reasons that are best left alone, would be the best way to put it without an attack on him or to drift the thread away from what it's intent is.

To me the thread is more to find your consistency for your method be it bottom pour pot, ladle pour, or cowboy style, not about accuracy on the target I know at 10 yards and below (true combat range engagement) none of the boolits deviations would make a hill of bean difference on target. It's all about finding your best method of casting the best boolit that you can do.
Just my OPINION your mileage /opinion will vary.

Indeed. Mike and I are about to meet later today and I will cast with his mold in the same ways that he has, and we'll see if the results are different. So far, it seems that mike is more consistent with a pressure casting technique. If I take his same mold, and run at the same temperature, but I get better results using my 1/2" drop, sweep under the spout routine, what does that tell us?

I have a very strong suspicion that Doc Highwall nailed it in post #173.

We shall see.

[dtknowles]

I couldn't hep m'self! I had to give it one more shot tonight.
I was thinking that I started this journey casting at 700* and the results were dismal.
I then went to 725* for several tests
Then, earlier today I went to 790* and it seemed that I had crossed over the effective temperature range of this alloy with this mold.
I was thinking that I needed to hit it somewhere in between 790* and 725*, so I set the pot at 740* and started casting while I was on the phone with sgt. mike (it was a joint casting operation from afar LOL!). I just kept an even pace and enjoyed myself.
The result was pretty solid I thought.
91606

Tim

That run is awesome, very strong peak (low SD) and low extreme spread. I would discard the top two rows and call that lot prime. Step one for accurate bullets accomplished (assuming appropriate mold and alloy).

I understand not wanting to get bogged down in the "how much better do they shoot" discussion too many other variables.

Again nice work.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

Next time, do like I said and scrub with WD-40 or Kroil first, and then hit it with the sudds. Works every time.

[MBTcustom]

Well I took a ride with Mike's mold tonight.
First curve was shockingly obtuse. Kinda made me look at the mold like: "Seriously?" Something has got to be going on. I suspected the FP pins were to blame, but figured I better give it another go. This mold cannot be used with the shelf on the Lee pot on account of those HP pin hangers.
Here's the first chart. Boolits were cast with a primed spout and about a 1/2" stream:
91674
I tried it again. This time, I pressure cast the boolits by priming the stream and then sweeping the mold under the nozzle using the sprue plate to keep it stopped up. As soon as it got into a sprue hole, it was "lights on" for the silver stream.
Here's the graph:
91675

Better lookin curve, however still erratic. I noticed that the FP pins left an impression in the meplat of the boolits, and one or two of them were way undersized. I whipped out my depth micrometer and started checking the depth of those impressions. Sure enough, the light ones were significantly deeper than the heavy ones, leading me to believe that those pins were floating around in their holes, creating problems.
So cheer up Mike! You're not such a shaky hand at this as you thought eh?

[GabbyM]

I was thinking of going down to a local store (I think they call it cupids or something) and finding something that vibrates to tape to one of the handles of my mold. I really wonder if that would make a difference. I completely agree with you about the Dillon powder measure BTW.
If a vibrating plate is really what we need. Maybe just set a case tumbler over to the side on your bench and allow it to vibrate the whole bench. Take rubber feet off and screw it down solid on the bench or shelf below if you need more shake? Toss in some brass then kill two birds with one stone. Just a thought.

[HotGuns]

I had a talk with Tim today on the phone and it was then that I learned about this thread. The conversation that we had, intrigued me.

As we know, (most of us anyway) the tight groups that we all like to shoot come from eliminating the variables. Just as a good shooting gun is improved not so much be getting rid of one variable, but a combination of variables, I could easily correlate the same idea to cast bullets although I'll admit, until today I never gave it just a whole lot of thought.

I've been casting for over 30 years and always had excellent results, but in the never ending quest for perfection, I am always willing to learn anything that might cut my group size.

With that being said, I have always approached my casting more from the aspects of bench rest, target grade shooting and always endeavored to get the smallest groups that I was capable of. To me, its not much difference than fine tuning a mediocre gun and making it shoot groups that would have most people in amazement.

This thread has inspired me to try some of the things mentioned. Although I do shoot a large volume of cast bullets in handguns where 25 or 50 yards is about it for the range, I can see where long range shooting might actually benefit from some of the practices here.

So, I intend to do just what Tim did and see if I can improve. What the heck...it never hurts to try and it might actually be fun. If I actually see an improvement in what I'm doing, it'll be well worth the effort. That's what I love about this forum. It seems like there is always someone coming up with some good ideas and an opportunity to improve. I really like that.:grin:

[onehousecat]

This thread isn't about shooting. It's about casting.
A good shot can win a silhouette match with almost any boolit that will shoot halfway straight, and I say hats off to 'em.

I mean, if I can hold my head right and cast 1000 boolits that are all within .3 grains of each other, why would I intentionally cast like a slob just because it doesn't seem to matter on paper? We all want the best product we can make, so why not learn how? I just don't understand why you would look down on a man for trying to operate with a little class.

Not real judgmental are you? (sarcasm, in case you missed it) If shooting paper yields consistent groups that are of comparable size between bullets of >.3 grs variance and those of <.3 grs variance, are the ones with the higher weight variance inferior? If so, how? I take serious issue with the "slob" characterization. I have more than a bit of OCD, so uniformity means a great deal to me. In order to conduct my life in a reasonable fashion, I control things to the limit of my abilities. When things reach a point of NO MEASURABLE DIFFERENCE in the end result of my actions, I let it go. You might want to buy a dictionary, look up the word "class", and then reread your post.

[pls1911]

When I was shooting silhouette, I'd put many pounds of bullets in a session, working half an hour to get three molds up to temp at the same time...then production run was started the bullets cst were RCBS 165-SIL.
All sprue cuts and cull bullets are returned to the pot and 1-2 pounds hot ingot when it's about 1/3 empty; all molds are left filled when ever VERY short break is needed to add a lead clean up or flux.
When running molds, consistent CADENCE is absolutely required to achieve consistent bullet weights. Maintaining consistency in all variables of pot temp, mold temp, pour technique, timing, recharge technique all influence bullet weight.
I also runout a squirt of lead into a stainless bowl inder the spout before filling the mold.. every time. This avoids the "first bullet-cool alloy" issue.
In a single pot without any recharge you expect a bell curve distribution of bullet weights, that higher variations (rejects ) at start up, the the gretset consistency after everything is up to temp and running good...untill your pot gets low or or mold over heated, then variations and rejects again grow.
Similar to the origenal poster's efforts, after a casting session, I weight segregated 600 bullets +/- 1/2 grain which had been placed IN ORDER OF CASTING on the and culled as cast for obvious rejects. The results were noted in an excel spread sheet and graphed.
As expected, the consistency increased over time, and after an iniitial whenever there's a break in cadencexperiod of settling into a constant cadence and continued as long as I could physically keep it up. SMALL sine waves of variance were noted whenever I had to break for a moment to clean up add sprues and heated ingots, etc. When casting resumed, after a few throws, all was good again untill the next break. The message is that any break in cadence is manifested in bullet weight variance.
The final results were the 40% of bullets fell into +/- 1 grain, 90% were +/- 2 grains and the remaining 10% (60 or so bullets) were the oddities we see from strange variations light and heavy... remelt fodder.
Within these high level sorts we noted the variability relative to the order cast... and sure enough whenever we had a break in cadence, the variables stood out clearly... not bad mind you, but notable.

Our casting set up is carefully planned and laid out like a factory work station so it's much easier to maintain consistence in motion.
I'd love to share the data file....If only I could find it....

[popper]

any break in cadence is manifested in bullet weight variance. - good point, I need to check this out. Easy to do as I drop on a towel. As an older gent I do know my cadence changes when the arm gets tired. I will check that also, for rifle only as I can't shoot long range pistol - if they do the job @ 10 I'm OK.
I have found that oven HT/WD makes more consistent shooting boolits. Broke a lot in half, there is a definite 'ring' with different granular structure that is off center for AC or WD, centered for oven treated.
Good thread Tim - lots to learn.

[Doc Highwall]

91715I am going to applaud Tim’s efforts to not only investigate the variables in casting great bullets but in also sharing the knowledge of what he has learned. I am doing the same thing with loading dies and posted it quite a while ago but I have not posted an update yet due to the fact that I am still working on it.
Here is a 300 yard group that I shot with the SAECO #315 bullet cast with 30:1 alloy and as you see measures 1.610” with four shots in 1.090” and if I want to eliminate the fliers I will have to do the same thing as Tim. Most shooters would be happy with results like this at 100 or 200 yards but I am not satisfied and I have asked myself the question “What if” and the pursuit for knowledge and perfection continues.

[fastfire]

Tim, Keep up the GOOD work. I presently being overloaded with new to me info but trying to soakup as much as my brain will take. I love this thread!

[MBTcustom]

91715I am going to applaud Tim’s efforts to not only investigate the variables in casting great bullets but in also sharing the knowledge of what he has learned. I am doing the same thing with loading dies and posted it quite a while ago but I have not posted an update yet due to the fact that I am still working on it.
Here is a 300 yard group that I shot with the SAECO #315 bullet cast with 30:1 alloy and as you see measures 1.610” with four shots in 1.090” and if I want to eliminate the fliers I will have to do the same thing as Tim. Most shooters would be happy with results like this at 100 or 200 yards but I am not satisfied and I have asked myself the question “What if” and the pursuit for knowledge and perfection continues.

Doc, that is truly astounding shooting.
You have to understand that my pursuit of cast boolits until this year has been completely geared toward the end result of using the most effective means possible to put game animals down. However, since I have leveled my eye's on building the best rifles I am able, with a very serious nod towards shooting cast boolits in every one, my ways of looking at things have changed. I have begun to look past the target spot and see if I can realize some of these results you great fellers have posted about.
That said, I don't know if I could shoot a group that good with jacketed boolits in my 300winmag! Never tried it.
Bear with me though, I'll be with ya in a minute! LOL!

The first time I started realizing that the details matter was when you told me the dramatic effect anealing the gas checks can sometimes have on a group. I tucked that little tidbit away for future reference, and over the last couple years, I have proven that it can indeed have an effect on accuracy!
Then I started making GC makers for certain members (I don't do that anymore BTW). Not knowing what was required, I just made each one to a specific boolit that each client sent me. I would just make it as gosh awful perfect as I possibly could, because I didn't know what I could get away with or not. Low and behold, reports of improved accuracy were a steady theme with these tools. Interesting. Such a tiny little fly fart of material can make a difference?
"Well duh!" you might say!
So is it any wonder that I am looking for near perfection in my boolits? Is it any wonder that I naturally conclude that small details matter?

And lets just look at that GC. Why would the hardness make a flyin rip as to accuracy in the first place? Would it not be the minute change in wall pressure it puts on the inside of the barrel and the way it marries the rifling?
If that's the case, why wouldn't I pay as much attention to the rest of the projectile?
What about the way it is held by the case mouth? Would that not have an effect on how it engraves the rifling? After all, we know that both lead and brass has a little bit of springback, but it won't have time to return to a consistent shape before it engraves will it? Hmmmmmm
Seems to me that making the boolits all have exactly the same strength, making sure the brass is squeezing it the same way, making sure these things react against eachother in a consistent manner, all would have an equally dramatic effect on boolit performance to a slightly greater or lesser extent.

So many questions. So many answers. Only one truth.

[MBTcustom]

Hello fellers.
I come to you with my hat in my hand. A repentant soul. Fully convinced of the error of my ways.

Ahem.

The Rowell ladle came in the mail today.
I took my dremel tool to it immediately and ground off all the casting marks on the inside of the bowl. However, I did nothing to the spout, except use a file to roll the rim over cleanly. I did nothing to the inside of the spout whatsoever. (Just wanted to make that clear for interested parties.)
I couldn't find anything suitable to make a lead pot out of, so I decided to use my trusty 200lb smelting pot. It took me a while, but I managed to build a perfect 150Lb pot of 50/50 alloy (still no tin, please bear with me).
91874
I put the fire to it and got it melted eventually, and I made a special clip to hang my thermometer down inside the pot so that I could see what I was doing. Unfortunately, the hottest I could get that voluminous mass of alloy was 650*. Well, I figured I would give it a go but I really thought I would have a lot of sub 173.3gr errors like my first tests had.
It took me a while to get the hang of it. First, I was dumping too much alloy and flooding two cavities at once, then I was trickling the stream too much, and getting poor base fill out. Finally I started pouring a good healthy stream, but keeping to one cavity at a time, and I started getting good looking boolits. I settled into a rhythm, and started dropping them in my little water container with a rag to cushion the falling boolits.
I really didn't expect much being that I have never used this tool before. It didn't take me long to realize that this was a whole different ball of wax. One thing I noticed right off the bat was that the mold was holding heat soooooo much better than with the bottom pour pot. It was just the shear volume of molten metal that was being dumped over it every time.
Little did I know that I was dropping one of the best bell curves yet! Certainly as good as my best run with the bottom pour pot.
Check this out!
91876
Not only were these boolits as or more consistent than my previous endeavors with the Lee 20lb pot, but they were prettier. Absolutely beautiful boolits that took every machining mark of the mold.
I am quite confident that I got the alloy exactly the same as the original, not only because I am one anal SOB, but because the target weight (the boolit weight that makes the point of that graph) was identical to the original alloy I was testing in the BP pot. 173.3gr just like before.

Now, I was doing a lot of things wrong. I was not paying attention to mold angle, and I was talking to geargnasher while I was pouring the first of these boolits. I was not watching a clock, or taking anywhere near as much care as I did with the BP pot.
The shocking question is: What if I did? How perfect could I get these boolits if I paid attention to cadence as perfectly as I was doing before?
That is a question that I need to answer.

[leftiye]

Thas why you use a mold heater (with a bottom pour - and everythang else)

[MBTcustom]

Thas why you use a mold heater (with a bottom pour - and everythang else)

There was no time to heat the mold though? It was fill, freeze, drop, shut, fill..... There was no ten second wait to set the thing on a heater?
Perhaps I misunderstand how you use this heater?
Also, I might point out that this is a massive brass mold that dwarfs the little 30 caliber cavities in there.
Can you expound a little more on that? Tell me what to do and I'll sure give it a go and see if it makes my graph pointier.

[45 2.1]

i come to you with my hat in my hand. A repentant soul. Fully convinced of the error of my ways. finally.... About time....

i took my dremel tool to it immediately and ground off all the casting marks on the inside of the bowl. However, i did nothing to the spout, except use a file to roll the rim over cleanly. I did nothing to the inside of the spout whatsoever. (just wanted to make that clear for interested parties.) call when you're ready to try. That part is important.

i really didn't expect much being that i have never used this tool before. It didn't take me long to realize that this was a whole different ball of wax. Seeing is believing ehhh?

the shocking question is: What if i did? How perfect could i get these boolits if i paid attention to cadence as perfectly as i was doing before? Get the right size pot and alter the ladle.


btw.... Happy Birthday

[Pb2au]

Good steel,
For an interesting reference;
I would suggest you obtain some commercially cast bullets and interrogate them for weight. And by commercial, I mean those that are produced off of an automatic casting machine.
I think the results you find would be interesting.

[Pb2au]

And btw, very interesting thread so far.
I work for a machine tool company. One of the things I do a lot of is measuring production off of our machines at customer sites. Productivity, quality, and consistency.

[country gent]

Good steel, Thats one of the reasons I brought up the Brooks vented sprue plate, It does several things to help with consistency. !st is that it allows yo to keep the sprue base molten much longer allowing for perfect fill out. 2nd is ti maintains a consistent sprue on the mold almost every time, once mold is hot and to temp. Until then it kind of like any cold mold it just builds up on the top. Another thing with the Mass of metal in that big pot temp flucuations and mix remained much more even. I routinly cast with a weed burner and dutch oven 100-150 lbs at start. I perfer this as my lee pots are much more fussy. With the weed brurner ( propane) I can have a pot to temp in 1/2 hour or so. The rowel ladle is putting lead into the mold much faster than the bottom pour probably also. I very seldom pressure cast with the ladle but do pour a full ladle into over the vented plate everytime. I use an rcbs mold thats been cleanened up on the outside and the spout opened up to .200. I cast bullets mainly from 400 grns to 560 grns so maintaining that faster fill rate gets tricky otherwise. That big brass molds heat holding capacity and the big ladle will definitly help with consistency.

[Wayne Smith]

I was recently surprised by some of my casting results. I ladle cast with a Lyman ladle and, admittedly, I am not terribly good at keeping my heat constant as the level of lead goes down. I cast some 311291 out of a single cavity mold. When trying to shoot them in my 03A3 I found that maybe 5% of them were too large to chamber. In over ten years of casting this is the first time I have had this happen unexpectedly. I usually know when I have something wrong with the mold and it's casting large. It usually shows up clearly in sizing. This time it is a variance in nose diameter without an obvious variance in body diameter, and no, I haven't measured any.

Guess I need to go back and start weighing rifle boolits again.

[Doc Highwall]

One thing that has not been mentioned is the pressure that one keeps on the mould handles and how it can vary bullet diameter and weight. In Wayne Smiths case he most likely held the mould handles with a loose grip on some of his pours making the bullet larger all over but because the sizing die does not size the nose of the bullet it remained oversize after being lubed.

A member Gussy here makes a real nice pair of locking mould handles that will cure that by giving the same closing pressure throughout the casting sessions.
I believe you will find them under Casting tree the same as the hardness checker.

[45 2.1]

A member Gussy here makes a real nice pair of locking mould handles that will cure that by giving the same closing pressure throughout the casting sessions.
I believe you will find them under Casting tree the same as the hardness checker.

+1... another plug for some of Gussy's excellent products.

[MBTcustom]

quit tempting me to spend money!!
LOL!!

[357maximum]

Keep at it Tim...you are on the right track now..........pretty soon your "bell curve" will look almost like a SaturnV rocket. :mrgreen:

One thing that really helps me is to "pre spill" a little stream of lead on the way to the mould.....I.E...I start pouring right before I get to the mould itself, then slowly make the jump to the cavities.

Keeping a notecard for each of your moulds helps too, as they all have their own "personality" and "likes"/"dislikes" . Some will want a slow trickle, some will want a swirling toilet like approach and others will want a Biblical Flood...they are all different.

[MBTcustom]

Got it Gollum. I'm on it like stink on roadkill.
Actually, i was already priming the spout on the ladle. Im afraid that's going to be a pretty common thing for me from now on, after seeing the effect it had on the BP pot. It just makes sense on so many levels.

[357maximum]

Got it Gollum. I'm on it like stink on roadkill.
.

I do believe you are correct....major improvement with the new tools shows that.

When you wanna truly test yourself ...break out the longest skinniest Loverin you can lay your hands on and see.


Have fun,
Mike

[popper]

I will repeat what many casters say, mould/sprue temp not melt temp is the criterion. Obviously venting is very important to eliminate any trapped air. Proper cavity fill rate, cooling rate & venting should eliminate problems. We use cadence to control some of these variables. A comment on your boolit with the bubble, it would be a very small trapped bubble that expands and creates the large void, don't see how you could trap that much air in a boolit. It wouldn't even need to be air but any trappable, expandable material caught in the pour - dust, oil, oxidized material that gives up O2 when cooling, etc. I will still maintain (maybe wrongly) that most weight variation is due to poor fill out and probably will not have much effect on accuracy - as long as it is symmetrical, i.e. improper filled lube groove.

[MBTcustom]

I do believe you are correct....major improvement with the new tools shows that.

When you wanna truly test yourself ...break out the longest skinniest Loverin you can lay your hands on and see.


Have fun,
Mike

Alright I just have to say it: "your avatar creeps me out!" There. I said it, and I feel better now.

Ahem.
I have heard stories about a mold called the "cruise missile" being one of the most challenging boolits ever devised to get a perfect boolit from. Think I'll stick to easier things for the moment. LOL!
My buddy across town has a heavy boolit mold for the 300blk that drops a loooooong boolit. Those had a problem where they were actually warped! They looked like a bunch of silver bananas laying in the bowl.
Definitely not the easiest to get good results from.

[geargnasher]

The Cruise Missile ain't nuthin' but a thang......

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19217&d=1264399121

Bottom-poured from a Lee pot and water-quenched. They come out just peachy IF you are absolutely ruthless about pour technique, timing, and temperature. They actually bend when peeling out of the cavities if your mould isn't in 100% burr-free working order.

Tim, remind me to tell you about "goat-azzes" next time you call. Best way I've found to tell that you're cutting the sprues at exactly the same time in the cooling cycle time every time.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

The Cruise Missile ain't nuthin' but a thang......

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19217&d=1264399121

Bottom-poured from a Lee pot and water-quenched. They come out just peachy IF you are absolutely ruthless about pour technique, timing, and temperature. They actually bend when peeling out of the cavities if your mould isn't in 100% burr-free working order.

Tim, remind me to tell you about "goat-azzes" next time you call. Best way I've found to tell that you're cutting the sprues at exactly the same time in the cooling cycle time every time.

Gear

That's solid Ian, real solid.

[geargnasher]

I'd show you how the little one shoots but someone would ban me.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Not while you see "MOD" in my title block they won't.

[BNE]

"Tim, remind me to tell you about "goat-azzes" next time you call. Best way I've found to tell that you're cutting the sprues at exactly the same time in the cooling cycle time every time."

Gear



Gear, Please share with the rest of us....

[MBTcustom]

I took a break from the intense research and developement tonight fellers. I had offered to cast up some Lyman 358430 RN for a feller, so I plugged in the bottom pour pot, and started casting. This was always one of my favorite molds, and I jumped right to my old pace intuitively (it's been 4 years since I walked with this old friend)
Fill
3 1/2" second freeze
cut
open, tap tap
shut
5 second count
fill........
Like clockwork.
I weighed about ten of these and they were all within 1.5gr (not bad for a mold I beat the living hell out of in my ignorant youth).
Life is good. I'm much better off for all this nit picking than before.

[357maximum]

Here ya go Tim, face your fears and they shall go away: :lol:

https://www.google.com/search?q=gollum+pics&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=S-XAUv6eNaGMyQGLoYC4Dg&ved=0CCsQsAQ

[MBTcustom]

Here ya go Tim, face your fears and they shall go away: :lol:

https://www.google.com/search?q=gollum+pics&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=S-XAUv6eNaGMyQGLoYC4Dg&ved=0CCsQsAQ

You are dead to me.....

[Doc Highwall]

Don't laugh a guy I worked with looked like that.

[357maximum]

You are dead to me.....


THANKS, just bout peed myself laughing......I think he is kinda cute ....in pug puppy kinda way. :lol:

[btroj]

Dang trolls......

[popper]

OK Tim, did another batch and found 2 (out of ~150) that were 1 grain under the lowest of the rest. Obviously an outlier with a void. I will shoot these, standard load I've been using and see how they do at 100. My luck they will be right in the middle and no effect.

[Doc Highwall]

popper, it is not just the weight but the percentage that the weight represents. One grain with a 500 grain 45 caliber bullet and one grain with a 50 grain 22 caliber bullet is a big percentage difference even though they are both one grain.

[wquiles]

Great thread - thanks to all who contributed [smilie=s:

[Geezer in NH]

.2 grains over/under 173 grains??I am not OCD nor anal. this is not needed IMHO

Maybe .5 or .6 then but ???? This is my hobby not obsession. I competed for over 15 years in ML competition 100,000 plus balls a year in 50 cal I separated for National match by .5 grains, all rejects shot in local matches and my average DID NOT CHANGE