Need a 45 ACP mold suggestion

[brasshog]

I'm in the market for a 452 HP mold for feeding my two 1911's. I like 230+gr projectiles and have a few questions. First, what hardness/mixture should I consider to keep the leading down preferable to a minimum. Years back when I simply loaded store bought boolits I never paid attention to this and always seemed to have a leading issue with whatever brand was cheapest at the time (using W231 and AA#5). Secondly, I have a supply of Thompson's Blue Angel lube on hand and wonder if it is ok for the ACP. Third, my 1911's are running 24lb springs with buffs for heavy loads. One may be upgraded to a 460 Rowland soon so I'm wondering about a checked boolit design and whether or not it is necessary since I would prefer to not have to buy several molds to start. I will be using this combo for two legged varmints and backup in the woods (vs Florida hogs and deer) so the only real requirement is 100% feeding reliabilty. I'm still alittle green on casting but picking it up well. Pics are a great help. Listed below are two that I have found but I am really open to suggestions. Thanks for the help.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=268

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=250

[375RUGER]

I have that large HP mould and it is an excellent 45 acp boolit. I pour 3:1, range lead : pure, sweetened with copper and it is a good shooting boolit. This is what my wife and I both carry for 2 legged critters. I grease with FWFL. No leading. Can't help you with the Blue Angel.
No feeding problems. I load this boolit with W231 and 700X.

[brasshog]

What is "FWFL" ? What mold/weight do you use ? Thanks.

[wv109323]

The .45 ACP is a low Pressure ,low Velocity round. With the proper bullet to bore fit you can get away with really soft lead in casting for the .45 ACP. Many of the .45 ACP bullets are swagged with nearly pure lead. The 1911 should digest either bullet with 100% reliability. Which bullet design you go with will be based on the performance/expansion of the bullet and not the profile of the bullet. The alloy you use will also be based on the expansion you desire. I would stay away from gas checks because it is not necessary. You are not going to get over 950 fps with a 230 gn. bullet.

[454PB]

I think he meant WFFL.....world famous Felix lube, which was developed by one of the forum's members.

If you're using a hollowpoint, you'll want to keep the alloy soft to allow expansion. WW alloy is as hard an alloy as is needed for .45 ACP, and with a proper fit, even softer.

[Bigslug]

Considering your applications and hotter loads, I'd do the small cavity version of the NOE. No need for gas checks if you fit them right.

[35remington]

I think you need to have a discussion about proper spring ratings for a 1911.

[knifemaker]

I have used many 230 gr. cast boolits in several of my 1911s. I have loaded them up to just over 900 fps for a woods trail load. The vast majority they were loaded with 5.3 gr. of W-231 for just over 800 fps to use in IDPA matches.
I used a mix of 50/50 clip on wheel weight to an equal amount of pure lead and sized to .452 using White Label BAC lube. No leading in any of my pistols. That mixture should give you a boolit that will expand without shearing off your hollow point and is worth a try in your loads. If you have problems getting fillout in your mold, you can add 2% tin to the mix. I did not have a problem with fillout in the mold by casting at 700-725 degrees lead pot temp.

[MtGun44]

How about this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51815&d=1289713935

Expect double the penetration in ballistic gelatin.

Bill

[gray wolf]

I think you need to have a discussion about proper spring ratings for a 191
Yeas indeed

Third, my 1911's are running 24lb springs with buffs for heavy loads. One may be upgraded to a 460 Rowland #1, How the heck heavy are they ? I don't think we have the whole story here. I think I will shy away from this one.

[C. Latch]

I think you need to have a discussion about proper spring ratings for a 1911.


I understand the desire to 'hot rod' a 1911, but agree that simply running a 24# recoil spring is NOT the way to handle it.

OP, have you considered swapping for a different FP stop? You can change the radius and slow the slide without using the heavy recoil spring that will batter your gun on its return motion.

[bhn22]

You can have molds made in any configuration you want anymore. If you're going the Rowland route and want a gaschecked hollowpoint, you're facing doing so in two steps. First you need to decide on a bullet design that has everything you want. I'll save you some trouble and tell you that nobody offers the complete package off the shelf. There are also no production molds like this either. You're reduced to ordering a mold that has most of what you want, and sending it out for hollowpointing. Since you want a heavyweight, remember that you will lose around 5-6 grains of weight, depending on the hollowpoint design you select. Accurate Molds, LBT, or Mountain Molds are likely suppliers for the basic custom mold. Hollowpoint Mold Service is probably your best bet for hollowpointing if you want multiple cavities done. My personal preference on molds is LBT, because I really like the bullet designs, e-mail Veral at LBT and tell him what you want. He understands. Yes, I did drink the LBT Blue Kool-Aid long ago. This is what his 45 ACP bullet design looks like, mines 230 gr, I think he'll take it up to 275+ grains. You'd have to specify the gascheck.
91176

[brasshog]

Thanks for all of the info and pics guys. To answer the 24lb question... I put it in her 16 years ago and have fired over 10,000 rounds with it installed with absolutely no frame battering. The 24lb spring (20lb for stainless) is also the spring that comes in the 460 Rowland conversion kit. The current spring is worn down to about 20-22lbs in strength and I have also used wilson shok buffs since I bought her 20years ago. No FTF's, no battering, no jams in 20years of duty service and range use. I gave her a serious service update in 2003 with about 80%+ replacement of parts. I know that a lot of people disagree with this weight of spring and it's ok. By "heavy loads" I simply meant max loads as a regular diet for years of use. I have rarely "hot loaded" my 1911 for anything. That's what magnums are for :-D hence why I still don't have a Rowland conversion yet...just not sure if it's a good idea.... I have a NOE 357 SWC-HP-GC mold and have some experience with it (maybe cast 2k worth). I guess I need to buy myself a hardness tester so that I can keep a decent BHN. I know that checks add a lot of cost and probably are not worth it unless I actually buy the Rowland kit.

[35remington]

The standard mil spec spring for the 1911 was.........14.5 pounds.

The heavy spring greatly increasing battering of the gun where it was not intended to handle it, which is the barrel's lower lug feet, and greatly increases impact on the slide stop as well. The gun is also more inherently reliable with the lighter springs.

The frame was intended to be struck by the slide in the area called the VIS (vertical impact surface). That's why it's thick there. Where it was not intended to absorb greatly increased impact forces is on those areas that arrest the slide's forward travel when it goes into battery. These areas are much smaller and the impact is distributed in a concentrated area much less suited to handle it.

A small radius firing pin stop is a much better solution, as it provides equal to better frame impact protection while using a lighter more inherently reliable spring. Without the gun damage (which is cumulative) that results from using a heavy spring. Quite frankly, superior results in terms of lessened gun damage with both forward and backward travel of the slide may be obtained with a 16 lb. spring and a small radius firing pin stop with a minimum radius cut on the bottom corner.

Win win.

Using a 24 lb. spring with service loads or even upper end 45 ACP loads, even for a regular diet, is absolutely nuts. 10,000 rounds is no great number for a 1911 and that does not mean that you are not over stressing the gun, as you quite certainly are. The battering is occurring with these heavy springs, make no mistake about it. You just won't see it until something catastrophically fails.

The "service upgrade" also likely hid any cumulative effects, but they're adding up. You're looking for frame battering while missing all the other damaging effects of the 24 lb. spring. The 1911 is a durable design, but 24 lbs. is really, really pushing it.

If you rarely "hot rod" your 1911 for anything, there is no reason whatsoever to use such a heavy spring, and a great many reasons not to. The slide just doesn't hit the frame all that hard with standard loads, or even heavier but load book recommended loads, with even a 14.5 lb. spring.

The slide tops out at about 17 mph before the spring starts to slow it in its rearward travel with standard loads. That's max speed, not slide impact speed, which is somewhat less.

Do your gun a favor and return to a much lighter spring.

[RobS]

The right boolits with large HP pins are what you are looking at from NOE and the left boolits are one of my own designs. Both are around 230-235 grains IIRC.

http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy233/rjspies/IMG_8942_zps180c95de.jpg (http://s795.photobucket.com/user/rjspies/media/IMG_8942_zps180c95de.jpg.html)

[C. Latch]

35 Remington,

I agree with every word of your post (though I personally run 18# springs in mine).

RobS,

Is your NOE 45-230-HP mold a 2 cavity or 4 cavity? The one in OP's link is a 4-cavity. I'd love to find something like that in 2-cavity.

[35remington]

I have the minimal radius in mine and the gun behaves quite well with it so cut, even with Plus P, using 16 lb springs. I don't know that 18 is necessary when installed with a small radius stop and standard loads but it certainly won't do the harm that a 24 lb. spring will. For somewhat regular use of Plus P (230 at 950 to 1000 fps) I would go with an 18 and no higher, so I can see the sense of an 18 with that.

10mm equivalent loads are quite successfully managed with an 18 and a small radius stop, as gunsmith Ned Christiansen has found.

Some tapering of the firing pin stop will be beneficial if the hammer rests high on the stop with no contact on its lower surface as installed. This ensures that the leverage of the slide on the hammer is minimal and maximizes the slide slowing benefit of the stop.

The slide is suddenly "hammered" into motion when the cartridge is fired, roughly analogous to starting it on its rearward journey by hitting it on the muzzle end with a hammer. Since the hammer is "punched" not smoothly pulled into rearward motion when the slide goes backward, the hammer, if resting high on surface of the stop, does not attenuate the slide's motion as well as if the initial slide impact was low on the hammer.

If hammer contact is high, the slide is started in motion before the radius at the bottom can have its effect.

When fitting the stop, check for contact with the surface of the installed firing pin stop. Most often it contacts high rather than low, which is not ideal. Ideal is contact all along the hammer's surface. This is why tapering is often necessary.

[35remington]

I do like the looks of Rob S.'s bullets and even more so bhn 22's Veral Smith design.

Alternatives are the RCBS 230 Cowboy flatpoint or the BD 45, which is intended to maximize meplat.

In my opinion little is to be gained in penetration above 230 grains weight, and downsides exist when case space for powder is reduced with the deeper seating of a heavier bullet. Pressure increases go up faster than increases in penetration, which are truly insignificant by comparison and not worth the effort or downside.

[RobS]

35 Remington,

I agree with every word of your post (though I personally run 18# springs in mine).

RobS,

Is your NOE 45-230-HP mold a 2 cavity or 4 cavity? The one in OP's link is a 4-cavity. I'd love to find something like that in 2-cavity.

My mold is actually a BRP mold which is of the same design. Bruce the mold maker of BRP is no longer making molds but my particular mold is a 4 cavity with two being HP'd and the other two cavities are 260 grain solids.

[ShooterAZ]

I got the 453- 230 large HP mold from NOE and it casts an awesome boolit. Included with the mold were an extra set of flat pins for casting a big ol' Round Flat. That was a pleasant surprise, the best of both worlds. I cast some HP boolits from 1/25 alloy and shot them into some wet phone books, and they expanded to well over 1" diameter. I know that might not be real world bullistic testing, but they opened up big time and were very accurate over 5 grains of 231. I'm very pleased with the mold (2 cavity).

[C. Latch]

I got the 453- 230 large HP mold from NOE and it casts an awesome boolit. Included with the mold were an extra set of flat pins for casting a big ol' Round Flat. That was a pleasant surprise, the best of both worlds. I cast some HP boolits from 1/25 alloy and shot them into some wet phone books, and they expanded to well over 1" diameter. I know that might not be real world bullistic testing, but they opened up big time and were very accurate over 5 grains of 231. I'm very pleased with the mold (2 cavity).

Was it part of a group buy or is it on their website somewhere and I just missed it?

I'd try to get one if I could get a 2C PB HP.

I haven't started casting for my .45ACP yet but I'm thinking that with a mold like that I could just cast everything HP and if I wanted more penetration I could use COWW and it wouldn't expand and would basically function like a flat-point.

[ShooterAZ]

Yes, I ordered it from the website. He had only one left at the time I ordered, but I'm sure he will make more if he hasn't already.

[C. Latch]

Yes, I ordered it from the website. He had only one left at the time I ordered, but I'm sure he will make more if he hasn't already.

Thanks! My wife will be thrilled to hear there's another mold I want. :-D

[RobS]

Thanks! My wife will be thrilled to hear there's another mold I want. :-D

You bet she will.............mine loves it when I start a new adventure with casting, reloading and shooting.

[Down South]

I have a MP 452-200 that does a great job.
http://www.mp-molds.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=32&=SID

[MtGun44]

Needing to rebuild a 1911 at only 10,000 rds is extremely unusual. I have multiple examples
that are far over 50,000 rds with all original parts and running fine, .45 ACP and .38 Super.

The Super was run HARD making Major Caliber in IPSC for more than a decade, still is fine
and tight and accurate - REALLY smooth. It uses 12-14 lb springs, primarily due to the
Wilson LE Comp stealing a bunch of the recoil energy. That particular example is somewhere
in the 70K and above round count. I was tapering off in my practice in those last 5 or 6 years,
so round count was probably under 6K per year through that gun, sort of lost a reasonably
accurate estimate.

24 lb spring is whacking the barrel bottom lugs and slide stop, plus the frame at the
slide stop hole something fierce on the forward strock. Folks seem to forget this
direction of loading when adding heavy springs. The shock buffs are a good thing, in my
experience, but no need for the super heavy springs. I made a SS small radius firing pin stop for
my carry LW Commander and it seems to like it quite well. I really do think that JB
had that part down and the Army messed up when they changed it. A testament to
the design that it still works well with the wrong radius on the firing pin stop.

Bill

[Dan Cash]

How can you tell what spring is in there?

Are there any TC (truncated) nose designs recommended?

Can't tell you about determining spring weight; when in doubt, replace.
regarding a TC bullet design, I have this one spec'd at .453, fired as cast, lubed with Bees wax/neats foot oil 50/50 = 1/4 cup lanolin to a 4 lb. batch. Works well in every thing I own marked .45, revolver or auto. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-230Q-D.png

[brasshog]

I didn't "need" to replace anything on the 1911 at 10k rounds. I changed it from a milspec to a loaded at that time. I had simply waited until I could drop a lot of cash to get it all at once. I have the same original barrel and the feet are fine. My original and new slide stop both are fine. 35Rem I don't doubt that you or others here know what your talking about. Many of our members here are very knowledgeable about a great many things. I agree that it is a heavy spring but it is simply what works for me and has been safe. Is there any real advantage over a large vs a small pin HP mold ? I know that the obvious is that I may be able to get the larger hole to open easier but that can also hold more denim. That big 'ol ashtray looks nice though. I have some boolits (200gr TC) from a supplier that appear to use Blue Angel lube. Does anyone have any experience with it in 45ACP or similar cartridges ? Thanks

Things that I have learned and hope to learn:
1) I need a mixture similar to 20/1 to 25/1 for it to expand
2) Blue angel lube for 45ACP ?
3) Large pin vs small pin mold ?
4) I don't need checks if I cast them right

[RobS]

Things that I have learned and hope to learn:
1) I need a mixture similar to 20/1 to 25/1 for it to expand Or you can go 25/75 WW to straight lead with a pinch of tin
2) Blue angel lube for 45ACP ? Just about any softer lube will work
3) Large pin vs small pin mold ? Larger works very well at 45 ACP velocities and you can go 50/50 WW to straight lead with a touch of tin and will still have nice expansion. The smaller HP pin will need softer lead or more velocity
4) I don't need checks if I cast them right Correct

That's my 2 cents

[Dale53]

No one here has mentioned the reduced penetration with a properly loaded expanding bullet. That is fine for two legged varmints but is NOT fine for hogs, in my opinion. Hogs are rather tough creatures and require penetration.

Of course, the beauty of a hollow point mould that will allow you to also cast solids is that you will have a choice. My choice for hogs in a 1911 would be a 230 gr flat point of some type. I have Mihec's 200 gr hollow point mould for the expanding bullet (I use 20/1 lead/tin for sure expansion at 1000 fps). I use the Lee 230 grain truncated cone when I want a penetrating flat point bullet (conventional lubrication).

FWIW
Dale53

[Blackwater]

FWIW, I once long ago had the Lee 452-190-HP mould, and shot it a LOT - a really LOT! Tested it in everything I could find: wet newsprint, mud, clay, etc. Cast of WW, never did I get any noteworthy expansion. That bullet had a pretty small HP, though. I continued to use it because it fed well and shot accurately in my old Colt. I also had the Lee 357-150-SWCHP, which actually cast at 142 gr. nominal when using WW. It had a pretty sizable and deep HP, and when run much over 1,000 fps, would expand fairly well. Again, this is on the basis of shooting wet newsprint, etc. A buddy shot two deer with this load, and it worked very well on them with a stout but below max load of Unique from 4" barrels.

I've been thinking about a HP mould for the .45 ACP as well, and based on my prior experience, I think I'd want a rather large HP and about a 185-200 gr. wt, preferably with a GC even though I hate putting GC's on when sizing. The reason for this is that all .45 ACP barrels I'm familiar with are characterized by rather shallow rifling, and the GC should help substantially with getting a good "bite" on the bullet's base and spinning it properly for best accuracy along WITH the expansion factor. I'd start at using 50/50 WW/soft lead, and see how it expanded, and adjust from there for the level of expansion I wanted to see. Then I'd try it out on some animals and see what the results were there.

Just my experience and what I'd do it it was me, which of course it ain't.

[35remington]

brass, if it seems like we know what we're talking about, why not take good advice? I could go into more detail, but there's simply no reason for a 24 pound spring, and every reason not to use one.

Point is, a lot more spring rate is the very opposite of improving the design......it's detracting from it and increasing the chance of gun damage. The best experience is had when you know when to take advice that is intended for your benefit and is honestly and truthfully given. If you recognize it as such, take the next step and apply what you have learned. The case for a 24 pound spring is absolutely nonexistent.

As the others have mentioned, do consider a flatpoint bullet of proper design and 230 grain weight for better penetration.

[MtGun44]

A pistol is a power drill with a fixed amount of power available. You can choose deep or
you can choose wide, but not both without adding power.

If the application is two legged predators, wide and shallow like the pic I posted is good.
If the application is hogs, I'd say deep and narrow is more likely to work. Lyman
452423 is Elmer's take on the topic and many report that it will feed well in many/most
1911s even though the intent was for the 1917 revolvers in .45 ACP. I'd think that this
would be a really good choice for hogs.

Bill