7.62x39 first deer with cast.

[crackerjack57]

Firstly, Thanx all for the help with getting the right load with my 7.62x39 Norinco bolt rifle. I found 2 loads that work very well to about 140-150 yards. one is a 155 gn NOE gas checked over a load of 17.2 gn of 4227 using a tuft of cotton over the powder. it sizzles along at 1850 fps. the other load that I shot this deer with was the lee 185 gn round nose .312. it sits on top of 15.5 gn of 4227 with a tuft of cotton over the powder. I tried the 2400 and the 1680 but couldn't get accuracy out of it. the 185 gn does about 1650 fps. the target shows the accuracy with 3 shots at 50 yards and it is the 155 grain load used for this target but get the same with the 185 but they print 2" lower. here are 2 pictures of targets.

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u574/crackerjack577/762x39180gnbesttarget_zps2027f096.jpeg (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/crackerjack577/media/762x39180gnbesttarget_zps2027f096.jpeg.html)

here is the harvest! 125 yards and as soon as I pulled the trigger the Deer dropped dead no running or anything just drop. a pencil hole in and a quarter size hole out the other side.

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u574/crackerjack577/firstdeerwithcast762x39125yards_zpsb3f956b9.jpeg (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/crackerjack577/media/firstdeerwithcast762x39125yards_zpsb3f956b9.jpeg.h tml)

I did some additional target shooting and found that the boolits start to go wonkey after about 150 yards. infact at 200 yards only 2 out of 5 hit the target. Im going to start trying to figure out why between now and next hunting season. any help as always is appreciated.

[rexherring]

Yup, you don't need those fancy copper ones. The deer didn't notice any difference. Nice job!

[Duckdog]

Nice buck. I bet if you up the velocity a tad it will stabilize until it gets to the velocity where it gets messed up. It's always nice to have a summer project!

[richhodg66]

That's a good buck! Congratulations. Sure does look cold there.

What alloy are you casting that 185 grainer from to get that kind of performance and expansion?

[crackerjack57]

i measure about BNH of 12.5-13 with my Lee tester.

and Duckdog. you were saying to heat up the load a tad. how much do you think for stability sake?? Im also playing with another one that I made a mold for that is adjustable for paper patching. right now im playing with about 237 grains of lead dropping at .302 and patching and sizing to .312 and have tried 2400, 1680 and 4227. no luck on accuracy thus far. not many are trying to play around with that heavy of a load but I'm trying. suggestions anyone??

as for cold.... its Alberta, Canada. about 1 1/2 hr north of Montana at the base of the Rockies. at about 12 deg below zero Celsius which is roughly 11 Fahrenheit. and that was after it warmed up! a cold -10 Fahrenheit night in the truck though!!

[Duckdog]

I would think just small amounts until you hit the sweet spot will work. It might be a matter of just 100-200 FPS. That alloy sound like WW?? I push one 30-06 to 2150 FPS and it holds it's accuracy well past 175 yds, and that with WW. I use liquid alox for lube and get no leading what so ever.

The only loads I'm shooting for the 7.62x39 are in the 1600 fps range using BL-(C)-2 with excellent accuracy. I also did try Unique, but was only getting 1450 FPS. It looks like you already have an excellent load right now, so it would be interesting to see what happens if you did add a bit more speed to it. Keep us posted!

I've never heard of anyone using that heavy of a bullet for a 7.62x39, but it would be sweet if it works!

[crackerjack57]

I will try that duck dog. Thanx. I as well have tried the unique and it just never got me useable velocity but great on accuracy! I am very curious on your 30/06 load as that is one of my other guns. im only getting 1800 fps out of 180 grain round nose. and it too accurate to about 150 yards but very accurate. that Remington doesn't care what powder. 2400 and 4227 were used with excellent results. that dogon norinco and sks are quite different though. only 4227. I would like to try a slower powder possibly. maybe RL-7

[missionary5155]

Greetings and Congradulations !
Nice Buck ! You did a good job there. Sure is a satisfying hunt knowing it all was your doing.
About the only detail not in your report is the boolit mix.
You have a fine combination working there. Those caliber 7.62x39 bolt rifles are an interesting pachage.
Mike in Peru

[Duckdog]

I'm using 31 gr of 5744 under a Lee 170 FNGC in the 30-06. Very accurate load and it puts them down. Pretty much the same results as what you had on that buck.

[crackerjack57]

I don't have any of that 5744 but will try it. Thanx.

[Rainier]

A 7.62X39 and a cast boolit for deer? OMG! "Everyone" just knows that cartridge is way underpowered and cast boolits won't work on deer! Probably lucky the boolit didn't just bounce off - at least that's what the gun store cowboys tell me :)

Great job on several fronts. You took the time to developed your load, knew its limitations and stayed within them and made a fantastic shot on a wonderful animal! Congratulations! Great job!

Enjoy the venison and all the balmy weather in the far north...

[Whit Spurzon]

Impressive performance. Heart shot?

[white eagle]

man that is a very nice buck deer ya got
I am glad you were able to oput together a load that worked as well as the one you have does
Have you said what your alloy was?
I am curious I have started to work on a load for the 30-30 with a Lyman mold

[Pilgrim]

I'm wondering what the twist is in your barrel? Most of the 7.62x39 loads I see are with 120 -130 gr. Jaxkted bullets. It may well be that the 155 gr. Boolit may be towards the upper limit for stability in your rifle. If so, then 185 gr boolits will be a complete waste of time. I may be totally off base here, but...FWIW Pilgrim

[CastingFool]

Congrats on your first cast boolit buck! You're certainly doing something right!

[kungfustyle]

Love the grouping and nice harvest.

[crackerjack57]

Ok. To answer afew questions. It was not a heart shot but spine. And dropped like a rock. As for it being under powered.... I have shot moose at 150 yards on a regular basis without issue however in saying that I won't take a questionable shot. If the shot isn't a positive vitals shot I will wait. And for what alloy, 80% stick on wheel weights and balance clip on weights. BNH of about 13 and for twist, same as sks. 1/9.5. And stability on a 185 grain is not a problem however after about 150 yards something starts to happen besides drop that I need to look into. Gets unstable. Someone suggested a bit faster.

[TXGunNut]

Nicely done! Congrats.

[richhodg66]

If you look around on here, I remember a few guys using heavier bullets than that 185 grainer in the 7.62x39. A 1 in 10" twist will stabilize it.

Some guys have been saying that Lee 185 grain oversized .30 works real well in Savage 340 .30-30s. I need to get that mold and try it.

[Muskyhunter1]

Crackerjack - Congrats on the buck and the group.

What model of Norico rifle are you using? I am thinking of getting rid of my SKS and getting one of them. They are pretty much the same price and the bolt is way easier on brass and easier to mount a scope on.

[NSP64]

Crackerjack, congrats.

It is the stability at distance that is at issue. You have to push them faster to maintain the spin rate over distance.

Your groups might open up closer then tighten up farther out. I would stick with the lighter boolit push it a little faster. Move your target to 100yrds and find a load that is accurate there, then go back to 200 and see.

[TheGrimReaper]

YES!!! Another cast boolit brother that likes the 7.62x39!!!

[MOA]

Nice deer Crackerjack. Nice to have all the effort come together for a great outcome on a hunt.

NSP64 is dead on. You will not maintain the velocity needed to keep that heavy a bullet stabilized over the extended distance you would like to shoot. The case is just to small in powder capacity. Try this. Mould needs to be around 130 grain, gas checked, and velocity in the area of 2400 to 2500 as long as accuracy is still good. I would get a mould at about .003 larger than the groove dia. I think with that setup the only think left is playing with the powders to see which one your rifle likes, and setting your COL. Your distance of how much your bullet has to jump will be key. You also might want to check with LBT on the moulds they offer, or talk to Veral Smith on his thoughts on a mould for your specific rifle and a hunting bullet. Good luck and stay warm..:cbpour:

[smokesahoy]

7.62x39 is no slouch. It gets tons of flack but it does the job. The funny thing is the 300 blackout has all the kiddies running around screaming like little girls and they basically reinvented this cartridge.

Good job! I hunt with this caliber too hehe. I need to get set up casting for it!

[Junior1942]

......You have to push them faster to maintain the spin rate over distance.....Nope. If a bullet leaves the muzzle turning 120,000 rpm, it hits the target turning 120,000 rpm no matter the distance or remaining velocity.

[Digital Dan]

I did some additional target shooting and found that the boolits start to go wonkey after about 150 yards. infact at 200 yards only 2 out of 5 hit the target. Im going to start trying to figure out why between now and next hunting season. any help as always is appreciated.

CJ, nice buck right there!

Your accuracy going south beyond 150 yards is not a problem with twist rate. Bullet spin decays very slowly over distance as opposed to velocity. While there may be other issues at play I think what you're seeing here is the result of increased pitching moments the bullet encounters as is slows into the transonic range of velocity and this is possibly exacerbated by bullet form. With the case capacity of your cartridge I doubt there is much you can do to improve performance with that particular bullet, so be content with a 150 yard shooter and move on. OR, you can use a lighter weight bullet and load to higher velocity. Thinking you're chasing your tail with that approach though and would suggest you run with the -06 for longer range.

[Digital Dan]

I might add that I am a fan of the 7.62x39 as well. Thousand of rounds fired at me by little people never found their mark back in the day, but you seem to have found a way to make it tick. Merry Christmas!

[Duckdog]

I'm not a physicist, but I have to disagree on that one. It's no different than spinning a top, which as a result of the resistance on the point and sides, loses it's spin. A bullet is no different in that the air is the resistance. It almost has to lose some of it's spin along with it's velocity due to that resistance along the surface of the bullet as is moves forward and spins. Again, I could be wrong, but I'm thinking unless the bullet is fired in space, there has to be resistance along it's surface form the air alone.

[monge]

GREAT DEER GOOD SHOOTING ! 06 is my next cast boolit project great info

[Digital Dan]

I'm not a physicist, but I have to disagree on that one. It's no different than spinning a top, which as a result of the resistance on the point and sides, loses it's spin. A bullet is no different in that the air is the resistance. It almost has to lose some of it's spin along with it's velocity due to that resistance along the surface of the bullet as is moves forward and spins. Again, I could be wrong, but I'm thinking unless the bullet is fired in space, there has to be resistance along it's surface form the air alone.

You are free to disagree, but your view is incorrect. What I stated is that RPM decay is not proportional to velocity decay. That my friend is a ballistic fact. RPM decay is slower because the effects of drag are minimized by two things. 1) The rotation of the bullet lies within the boundary layer of the aerodynamic flow field, and 2) Drag is primarily a function of cross sectional area. There is no cross section to deal with in regards to a bullet's spin. Conversely, drag on a bullet's nose is quite high. Your analogy of the top is actually quite good in providing understanding. Spin your top and time how long it takes to fall over. How far has your bullet traveled in the same time period? How much velocity has it lost in that time?

Instability of bullets transitioning through the transonic velocity range has been understood for many years. Several highly qualified scientist have written on the matter. Vaughn, McCoy, Litz....and more, making for a very long list actually. The world of spin stability and flat fire ballistics in complex science and more often than not, counter-intuitive.

[richhodg66]

Kind of a moot point for hunting to me, I've never shot a deer as far as 150 yards and I kill a few each year. Just the way I hunt. If it were me, I'd keep using the heavier bullet since 130 grainers seem light to me for big game, and just accept the 150 yard limitation which doesn't sound like much of a limitation to me.

[monge]

weight is key to clean kills use the heaviest boolit you can shoot accurately at your max range! Big holes Heavy Boolits=Clean Kills what works on paper sometimes does not prove true.

[crackerjack57]

Thanx all for the input. It's kinda neet that I have such a large pool of knowledge to pool from to make this thing work. I guess it's kind of like life. What we don't know we ask and the experienced ones can point us to the right direction. My success was because of y'all!

To answer a question, afew posts up someone asked what model of norinco. It's either a jw-105 or jw-106. If you look on Marstar.com or . Ca you do a search on their rifles you will find. It's a tough rifle to find though. And as for working up a load up for the sks... I have one of those aswell and not as good results yet but I'm not quitting yet. I also do have a great scope mount on that sks. Not the dust shield type either. A permanent one. Works awesome.

My next testing will be with three variables.
1. Slower powder
2. Boolits butt forward
3. Heavier. Up to 237 gr paper patched however.

[HABCAN]

Before any other I would first try 4198. I have no experience with loading the 7.62x39, but 4227 and 4198 are sweet in anything from .257 to .30-06........FOR ME. YMMV.

[richhodg66]

I have a little Mini Mauser in 7.62x39, but I've kind of focused efforts the other way; light plain based bullets with small charges of pistol powder for small game. It's a neat liitle rifle, but I need to do some trigger adjustment and load development for it. May have to try it for deer when I get some of the other rifles I want to use out first.

[white eagle]

I agree 4227 rocks in the 30-30

[crackerjack57]

She slower powder seems to do better for me. When using the faster powders I get some funny looking primers. Flattened around the firing pin and slightly bulged. And fps is only roughly 1850 fps so I think that the pressure spike is rising too fast.

[JDL]

crackerjack57, I shoot a CZ-527 with a 165 gr. FN that Mountain Molds made for me. I use either 28 grains of Surplus 4895 (almost identical burn rate as IMR) 1878 fps, or 25 grains of WC-844 ( slightly faster than H-335) for 1931 fps. Both loads run MOA and are pure devastation on armadillos and coyotes but, I've never had it in my hands when a deer presented itself. I like these 2 powders for hunting loads because they fill the case and eliminate the need for fillers and produce a useable velocity.

[Dthunter]

I have been shooting the Lyman #311299, 200 grain boolet in my Ruger M77 Hawkeye 7.62x39. They shoot great!
Kill deer just fine. I have never recovered a boolet yet, but the wound channels suggest expansion has occurred.

Boolets sized to .311" and gaschecked.
Average velocity is 1850fps. I am using 28.5 gr. Varget.

Until I got above 27.0 grains of Varget, it burnt dirty. Not enough pressure. Once I got to 28.5grains, it burned cleanly.
Groups are around 1.3" or better at 100 yards.

I replaced my magazine well, follower, and spring for a standard short action 308win set up. This allows me to seat my boollet firmly into the lands and not be too deep past the bottom of the neck. The rounds feed normally from the magazine. As long as I don't put more than 3 rounds into the magazine.

[crackerjack57]

Thanx dt hunter for letting me know that a powder as slow as varget will work. I noticed by the location that your a fellow albertan!! Excellent! Which neck of the woods? I looked at that Lyman mold your using. What I read was a .309 diameter. I'm wondering if it cast as .309 why size to .311 and also if some of you with additional insight could tell me if they thought H335 or 3031 would be a suitable slow burn powder for my 185 grain gas checked .311 lee cast boolits?

[Dthunter]

My boolets cast at .3105" ish. So when I lube/size for the 7.62x39, I try to size as little as possible and fully lube all my grooves. The fit is so close that I don't have any lube waste. I had to make sure I had a firm seating into the lands to boost my ignition pressures a little. it works for sure. But remember, if you don't fire the round, it will stick in the bore and dump powder in the action. A minor inconvenience. I just safely fire the round into a safe backstop before I leave an area.

As for the 185 grain boolets, I have never dealt with that weight range with those powders. As long as your ignition pressures produce enough pressure, it should burn clean and efficiently. Having a boolet that is .001-.0015" over bore diameter will help with this as well.


I live in the Grande Prairie area. Where abouts do you live? Its great to hear from a fellow Canuck!

[crackerjack57]

I'm learning something about the fact of having not enough pressure. I will try to go up a bit and see what that does. How is your accuracy after 160 yards? And at what farthest distance have you tried it out to?
As to location, I'm in calgary. Great to hear of fellow albertins let alone casters. Seems to be a skill that is diminishing with the instant world of just go out and buy it.

[Dthunter]

I have not shot this load much past 100 yards yet. I should try it in the near future. So many projects, so little time! LOL!

I have done allot of long range shooting with my 308win, and this 311299 boolet. It is an amazing design!

So many people are just the buy and use type! They expect to get instant satisfaction, and then think they are experienced! LOL!

Casting is allot of fun, but can be frustrating at times. I hope my son will take this hobby up when he gets older. It adds a big dimension to the understanding of what creates quality ammunition. It is definitely a learned and developed skill.

[crackerjack57]

Well, With all of the information you all have given me i armed myself with some new loads ( just a little hotter then what I have currently ) and off to the range. well, we had so much snow that I needed to park my truck outside of the gate of my range and walk in. I was a real die hard. It was so cold that it was hard on my self esteem let alone holding the rifle steady. but i went just a half grain hotter on the 185 grainers. so up to 16 gn of 4227 and up between .5-.8 up on the 155 gn NOE boolit. on the 155 grainer 18 gn of 4227 i believe is max load as the primers were just starting to flatten out. infact 17.5 - 17.8 gn of 4227 would probably be max for safety's sake. dispite being so cold that it was hard to hold steady, I think that there might be something there for better stability. I will reload this and try again on a warmer day but I got a nice 1" triangle at 50 with both of the loads. considering how cold, I know I can do better.

I also have an SKS that I took out using the same loads to test. This SKS has been giving me issues that I have been asking about on different posts. it just shoots like poop no matter what I do. so I just thought that I know this is an SKS but i figure it should do better than 6" at 100y. I know some of you say that its military and par for the course but im not happy with it. i thought what can I try to do to this thing next to help it. If I wreck it, I wreck it!! the thought came to mind to lap the barrel. not fire lap but pouring the slug and hand lap. what an eye opener. when the slug was running past the area where the gas tube hole enters the barrel, It was very tight. it took a lot of strokes to smooth that out. I'm wondering if this was my issue all along? i guess I will see the next time I go to the range. Any others do any hand lapping on a SKS and found similar results?