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crackerjack57
12-20-2013, 02:16 PM
I am having a lot of fun with my 45-70 and loading 405 grain hollow base lee cast boolits. I'm use to hunting with a 7.62x39 or a 30/06 but wow can this thing be loaded from mild to wild!!

What im wondering is when I'm in the bush toting this rifle and see a ruffed grouse. Its kind a waste to pull the trigger and with one boom kill, de-feather, and cook that bird in one motion. In fact i think it could probably be launched right back to camp in that form without the need of me carrying it all the way back.

Have any of you loaded hand loads that are bird shot? I'm not talking about a .410 shot shell. there is lots of guys out there that use a 2 1/2-3" shot shell so I know about that. I'm talking about hand loading something special. I know that the rifling would create spin and open up the pattern quickly. might waxing the entire clump of shot in wax help keep the groups tighter and slow down spread?

I'm sure some of you who have had the 45-70 for a long time might of played with this idea.

Thanx all and i hope I'm not being political incorrect to wish all a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS!

groovy mike
12-20-2013, 02:26 PM
It has been done. I'd use a 410 shot cup over a cardboard wad and an over the shot card on top in a 45-70 case. Might just go home and build a few....

Larry Gibson
12-20-2013, 04:27 PM
Foraging shot 45-70 load

I use a fired R-P case but others work just as well.

Deprime and reprime with standard LR (make doesn’t seem to matter) primer.

Drop 10 gr of Unique over primer and then gently push a ½ gr of Dacron down on top as a “wad”.

A Federal 410SC shotcup is pushed in and seated down on top of the Dacron. I use a pencil (erasure end) for both of the above steps.

The cup is then filled with shot until it is “heaping” over the case mouth.

An inverted GC or a thick cardboard wad is pressed down until inside the case mouth.

The case mouth is then crimped to hold the GC/wad in. A standard roll crimp seating die works fine. I set a 230 gr .451 .45 ACP bullet (a 300 – 400 gr GC base bullet without the GC works well too) on top of the GC/wad. By adjusting the seating stem so the bullet holds the GC/wad just inside the case mouth at the right depth when crimped works well.

Velocity is 1160 fps out of my 22” barreled Trapdoor carbine. I’ve shot 20 shots with no leading as the bore is protected by the Federal wad. Pattern with 22” twist rifling is useable to 25 yards with 7 shot on grouse and rabbits and to perhaps 20 yards on quail. Ground sluicing is acceptable when “foraging”. Smaller shot should be used (8-9 size shot) if close range aerial gunnery is done on smaller birds. For snakes at close range the number of shot with even #7 shot is dense enough given the amount of shot. This load is pretty much the same as a 2 ½” .410 shot shell.


Larry Gibson

crackerjack57
12-20-2013, 06:18 PM
I appreciate the great info. does anyone have any past experience with pouring hot wax over the whole load of shot? basically molding it into a solid mass of shot and wax? wonder what that might do to hold the shot together a little further for a tighter pattern.

drinks
12-20-2013, 06:26 PM
The wax job is also known as the pore boy slug!!!!!!!!

crackerjack57
12-20-2013, 06:40 PM
Would it do what I am thinking?

Duckdog
12-20-2013, 07:01 PM
Do you get any plastic fouling from the wad?

crackerjack57
12-20-2013, 07:08 PM
I haven't tried anything yet so don't know about plastic fouling so far.

Michael J. Spangler
12-20-2013, 08:29 PM
tagged for updates. always enjoy working out extra uses for the guns i already have

white eagle
12-20-2013, 09:35 PM
sounds like a good recipe Larry
great idea Crackerjack

Bullshop Junior
12-20-2013, 09:42 PM
i have a hard time belieing that it would create a pattern that would be usable. I had a rifled 12ga for a while with a 1/35" twist, and at ten feet it wouldnt keep all the pellets on the side of a Kia.

Duckdog
12-20-2013, 09:56 PM
I have a couple of 45/410 H&Rs and they do actually throw a good pattern as long as the choke tube is in it to stop the load from spiraling. Otherwise, they tend to have a hole in the middle of the pattern. But, never having put shot through a 4570, I would not want to say it wont shoot good.

kootne
12-20-2013, 10:23 PM
I have loaded 45/70 cases with data for a .410 as my reference. Fired in a Springfield trapdoor they went "bang". At 40'-50', a covey of ruffed grouse could have survived unscathed in the hollow center of the patterns. This was a rifle cut down to carbine length. But I love the idea, if you come up with a working load please post it. I think a better way might be to try reduced loads such as given in Wolf's book, "loading original cartridges for the Trapdoor Springfield". Some of these loads use round balls and some use hollow base .45 Colt bullets. I have not personaly tried any except the "3 ball guard load" which did not group well beyond 25 yards. I have also tried a .410- 2-1/2" shell in the trapdoor. Don't do that! unless you want to see how well a trapdoor vents gas.
kootne

monge
12-21-2013, 08:25 AM
This is a great thread I was thinking of taking a single shot shot gun in the woods when I hunt deer seems like the only time I see small game is when deer seasons open! with these 45-70 shot shells I can shoot those plump grouse that are under my stand! Going to get right to work on them. Thanks JOE

drinks
12-21-2013, 01:43 PM
57, when I tried it, the shot was a solid clump at 25 yds, no spread at all.

Crawdaddy
12-21-2013, 02:48 PM
Larry, great detail on how you did that. I am playing with 44 mag shotshells from a method another user posted.

I was able to get 7/8 oz in it. Going to the range today to play with it.

I must admit I never thought about 45/70. I like the idea better than the 44 I think.

How much shot was in your load?

Great thread.

skruske
12-21-2013, 03:00 PM
Not quite in the same league but I do have some wax shot 32-20 rounds with #9 shot in them. I recall many years ago DK17HMR patterned one round & at 20' it will probably put a rabbit in the pot.

I now have a new load to try. I'll see if my Pedersoli Sharps 45/70 will produce acceptable results. #7 1/2 shot should do the trick.

monge
12-21-2013, 03:23 PM
Now I have a good reason to buy a BFR in 45-70 Ill just mark the cyl that have shot in them , Depending what show up under my stand deer grouse or rabbit!

Michael J. Spangler
12-27-2013, 09:30 AM
Any new experimenters?
I think I'm going to try this tonight or tomorrow.

kens
12-27-2013, 09:49 AM
My experience with muzzle loading shotguns (smoothbore, no choke) is that powder charge effects pattern.
The higher velocity you launch the pellets, the more they open up the pattern.
For muzzle loader straight tube barrels, you get full choke by slowing down the charge. Actually a smaller powder charge tightens up the pattern.
So, if you wanted a skeet load you would have heavy powder with light shot charge.
And for trap, you load light powder with heavy shot charge (and lead the birds)

If this holds true for throwing shot out of a rifled barrel, then try a low velocity load.

Crawdaddy
12-27-2013, 01:21 PM
I tried my 44 mag shotshells in my contender Christmas day. Dismal results. Anything beyond 10 yards was no good.
I had rounds from 1/2 oz to 7/8 oz. I didnt try different velocities.

I bought some 410 wadds and I am going to try it in the 45/70 contender this weekend. ( If time permits)

CZVZ
01-04-2014, 09:26 PM
I have no experience with shotgun reloading, I was hoping someone/Larry could help me out. First is there anything magical with the Federal shotcup? can I use another brand? and where does one get "Dacron" for use as a wad? I have a .45-70 and like others I see more grouse deerhunting then any other time! Thanx
CZVZ

Larry Gibson
01-05-2014, 12:03 PM
I have no experience with shotgun reloading, I was hoping someone/Larry could help me out. First is there anything magical with the Federal shotcup? can I use another brand? and where does one get "Dacron" for use as a wad? I have a .45-70 and like others I see more grouse deerhunting then any other time! Thanx
CZVZ

I've looked at a couple other wads and the Federal is thinner and spreads out easier in the somewhat larger 45-70 case so it holds more shot. Nothing "magic" about it, the others may work as well. One bag of the wads has lasted me a long time.

If you've an old pillow or stuffed toy around they will probably be filled with Dacron. Dacron is a trade name for polyester material. You can buy it in bags and in sheets called "batting" (I prefer the batting sheets as it's easy to cut strips and then chunks in the size needed) in most any fabric store or fabric department in other stores like WalMart. Pictured is what's available in my local WalMart.

I didn't "pattern" the shot loads in the usual way. I set pop/beer cans in 3 yard increments from 10 out to 30 yards. I've walked up on many grouse or had them sitting a tree or bush with in those distances when deer/elk hunting. If the load will put 3+ shot through the can it would have taken a grouse and probably still be dense enough for quail. As I said I find them effective enough in my TD carbine & OM for 20-25 yards on grouse and quail.

I've not tried the handgun (revolver) shot loads on anything other than vermin at very close range. Have a Contender 45 Colt/.410 with choke but haven't tried it yet. A friend has had one for years and does very well on grouse/quail with it.

Larry Gibson

92700

35 shooter
01-09-2014, 10:42 PM
As far as the hole in the middle of the pattern with 45/410s i experimented with my front site to put the densest part of the pattern on target. By cutting the amount of front site used or maybe holding a bit more front site above rear(doesn't take much) puts the doughnut part of the pattern above or below target. Once i figured out the site picture, it would hold fairley tight patterns to 30 yards with the same sight hold. However your only utilizing about half the amount of shot in the shell by doing this but it does work for me.

Don't know if that would work in the 45/70 shot loads...never tried it.
Hope i explained the technique well enough, cause it does work well with 45/410 pistols without a choke tube on small game. It turned my Bond Derringer into a 20 to 25 yard squirrel and rabbit getter.

762 shooter
01-10-2014, 10:09 AM
I wonder if a shot cup made from a cut down piece of brass would work? The closest fit I've found so far is a 762x39 case. Back with Dacron and a card wad and crimp over a card wad. Swagers use then every day for prophylactics. If the shot doesn't work the brass case might. I wonder if a case would fit inside of a shotcup?

Interesting. Unless someone thinks it is explosively dangerous I might have to try this.

762

winchester85
01-10-2014, 10:32 AM
one of my favorite grouse guns is a trapper 94 in 45 colt. the big slow bullet just punches a hole in them, does not blow them up. why not just carry a low velocity large bullet round for the small animals?

762 shooter
01-10-2014, 05:48 PM
one of my favorite grouse guns is a trapper 94 in 45 colt. the big slow bullet just punches a hole in them, does not blow them up. why not just carry a low velocity large bullet round for the small animals?

Screwing with stuff is more fun.

762

miner_loads
01-25-2014, 10:31 PM
I use 8gr of unique cardboard wad tamp with a pencil fill with 7.5 shot a cardboard cap and a crimp seems to pattern tight.

M Hicks
01-26-2014, 12:48 AM
I appreciate the great info. does anyone have any past experience with pouring hot wax over the whole load of shot? basically molding it into a solid mass of shot and wax? wonder what that might do to hold the shot together a little further for a tighter pattern.

I've done the wax slug with 12 ga. loads. It essentially acts as a slug until it hits something. I was able to get a 4"-5" group at 100 yards with a smooth bore 18" barrel on an 870.

With rifling it may break up a little. I don't know if it would work for grouse though. I think if it breaks up it will be in large chunks instead of holding a tight pattern. Best way to find out is to give it try.

NSP64
02-02-2014, 09:46 AM
Use a single round ball in a cat sneeze load.
There is a thread about making shot containers from plastic milk cartons.

trapper9260
11-29-2017, 08:57 AM
I know this is a old post. I like to know if the 45/70 case would fit in a 410 . to use as a shot shell.thank you

Wolfer
11-29-2017, 05:05 PM
I use 444 cases in my 410. I believe 45-70 will be too big

While the 444 case works pretty well in my NEF it doesn't fit some other brands. The rim is too thick.

trapper9260
11-29-2017, 09:14 PM
Thank you Wolfer. for letting me know.

bstone5
11-29-2017, 11:26 PM
Like Wolfer, I use the 444 Marlin brass for 410 shot shells. Shoot in a H&R single shot break open and a S&W Governor hand gun. Sometimes with some guns the rim will need to thinned by cutting from the case side of the rim. Have trimmed some for a friend using my lathe. Just a few thousands is all that has to be trimmed.

brass410
12-04-2017, 03:37 PM
I use 9.3 x74r for my brass410 shell very close to a 3" round

Handshaker
05-08-2020, 02:44 PM
Sorry to dig up this old thread, but what powder is used to make 45-70 shotshells? I know i can use blackMZ but i was wondering if any rifle powder can be safely used?

Outpost75
05-08-2020, 04:51 PM
Sorry to dig up this old thread, but what powder is used to make 45-70 shotshells? I know i can use blackMZ but i was wondering if any rifle powder can be safely used?

Any pistol or shotshell powder can be used if you keep the charges light. I use 5 grains of Bullseye in the Starline 5in1 Blank cases for use in the .44 Garden Gun, .44-40, .44 Magnum, and. 45 Colt using a Dacron wad and Federal shot cup as Larry described. In Magtech 2-1/2 inch. 410 all brass I use 8 grains ofBullseye. In fire-formed 9.3x74R 2-3/4 inch cases I load the same 8 grains of Bullseye.

Patterns are good to 20 feet in my 1905 Colt SA and 1920 Colt New Service, and to 30 ft. in El Tigre carbine. In cylinder bore .410 good skeet patterns at 20 yards, in a full choke .410 squirrels are in danger to 25-30 yards.

Handshaker
05-08-2020, 05:46 PM
I dont reload pistol but use h335 for my BFR and 1895. The only pistol powder i have is winchester 231 in a big tin tub i got from a lott of powder i bought and some hercules 2400.
thank you

gunther
05-16-2020, 08:56 AM
the old shotgun-card shooter trick was either dope the shot with honey, or the more modern way is to use STP. Either results in very tight patterns from a 12 gauge. A rifled barrel may need some experimenting.

Harter66
05-17-2020, 12:15 AM
This is something I've dabbled in for some time . I've loaded a number of loads in 45 Colts and a few for the sake of trying it in a 45 Raptor .
The .445×.452 barrel let's the shot slid some I think as long as the wadding doesn't hold onto the shot or also jumps the rifling .

My permanent solution idea is to have a barrel back bored enough to take an extended Wad-Lok straight rifled 28 ga extended "turkey" extra full type screw in choke . The choke is big enough to clear , .530ish , even a .460 dia bullet the extended chokes are about 3" long . In theory the shot charge would open to meet the choke , at .560 then be choked back down . Pretty expensive test ......

There's a Brazilian 45/410 single shot pistol that has an external fingered straight rifled choke that takes a cylinder 24"@25 yd and takes it down to about 10" . You can't shoot a .452 through it though because the choke goes to about .400 .
My actual 410 is .386 at the muzzle with a .405 ish breach end . I have a barrel I might try it on for a 95 Mauser .
I wasn't able to locate diameter values for a 32 ga which might be better than the 28 ga .

Handshaker
05-25-2020, 06:17 PM
I just did some experimenting with my BFR in 45-70. I loaded standard brass with 12.7 grns of 2400, I resized 20 ga over powder and over shot wads with a leather punch(these wads are for my Howdah BP 20 ga pistol) , So thick cushion wad over powder, then 410 plastic shotgun wad trimmed down 1/4" for fitment, then 1/2 oz #8 shot, a resized over powder card and hot glue gun to seal. I rammed everything with my BP ramrod. I shot a watermelon at 12 feet away. Really good tight pattern of 10-12" and destroyed the melon. This was my first attempt, will further develop the load and also try #4 shot. It will be killer on rattlers.

Alferd Packer
06-03-2020, 04:05 PM
My experience with muzzle loading shotguns (smoothbore, no choke) is that powder charge effects pattern.
The higher velocity you launch the pellets, the more they open up the pattern.
For muzzle loader straight tube barrels, you get full choke by slowing down the charge. Actually a smaller powder charge tightens up the pattern.
So, if you wanted a skeet load you would have heavy powder with light shot charge.
And for trap, you load light powder with heavy shot charge (and lead the birds)

If this holds true for throwing shot out of a rifled barrel, then try a low velocity load.
This is the answer if you care to
Try.Start with Larry's load.
Powder, wad over powder,then plastic .410 wad in a 45/70 case.
I lightly treat the bore with some johnsons paste wax before firing.
The secret is the powder charge and pressure pushing on the wad of course.
Too much pressure and the wad expands into the rifling imparting spin to the shot charge.
Puts doughnut hole in the pattern as spinning shot is flung outward from the center.
You have to sneak the .410 wad past the rifling to get a good pattern. So the balance has to be reached between the shot being boosted fast enough to penetrate and kill game, yet slow enough to keep wad pressure from engaging the rifling on the way out.
Pressure is directly controlled by weight of shot charge and amount of powder.
Speed of powder, such as fast like Bullseye, or slower powder like Unique, or 700x, still fast, but less pressure at 5.0 grains.Sa.e with Unique, or 2400.
Gradual pressure rise and better pattern.
Experimentation will get best results.
Mind the rifling if you insist on a heavy powder charge because the load will obturate just like a bullet and grip the rifling coming out with a fast spin and blow the pattern badly.
The paste wax in the barrel will last a few shots and help the plastic wad to slide over the rifling, but you got to keep your foot off the accelerator.
3 grains, 4,5,6 etc. Will all blow the shotload out, but is it powerful enough with the pattern it throws?

I load em like Larry said and I get a pattern in my 45/70 Marlin with the microgroove rifling
.Its shallow ,not supposed to be good for soft lead bullets, but I like it okay.
The plastic wad with a slick bore seems to help for shooting shot loads.
Without the overpowder wad under the.plastic .410 wad, the smaller diameter wad let's the powder blast blow around and even though the side petals messing and mixing with the shot.
So you don't want to forget that wad for sure.

Finito
.

Handshaker
06-03-2020, 10:43 PM
I think thats exactly what my post said i did, minus the wax.
"Powder, wad over powder,then plastic .410 wad in a 45/70 case."