Has PC allowed you to go softer with your handgun alloy? (didn't see a thread on it)

[C. Latch]

I have been using straight COWW, air cooled then annealed by heating to ~425 then allowing to cool slowly in the oven, for my .45 Colt ammo - both my plinking load (260 at ~1000') and my hunting load (305 at ~1250'). I've been hand-lubing these with a homemade beeswax/olive oil based lube that seems to work fine thus far.

I would like to try a softer alloy in order to get a bit of expansion, and might eventually even experiment with some HP designs which might not need as much softening, but, anyway, I have used straight COWW in order to adhere to K.I.S.S., at least until now.

Here's the question: If I get a PC kit (I hope to have it at Christmas) how much softer should I be able to go without having leading problems? The gun in question is a ruger Bisley Blackhawk with a very, very slight thread choke at the frame (~0.001) but proper .4525 cylinder throats and bullets sized .452.

I would like to try 50/50 SOWW and COWW with 1-2% pewter added for tin, or something along those lines. I'm sure I can do this with my plinking load, but there's no need there; I'm content to shoot straight COWW as that's the most plentiful and cheap thing I have and it shoot very well. My main concern is trying to get some degree of expansion with my hunting load - not that I really need it, but I have penetration ability to spare, on our little deer, and, as much as anything, want to go down this road for the sake of learning.

[popper]

1 - why AC HT'd boolits? You heat, then WD to harden alloy. If you want soft, skip the HT step. They may harden over time.
2 - SOWW are almost pure anyway, just try it AC. 50/50 COWW should work - I don't use tin.
3 - From my experience, PC will prevent leading, keep accuracy if there is slight leading but doesn't add much if any hardness.
4 - PC cooking, then WD to harden, AC for soft.
5 - the HiTek copper/red method with the straight COWW may get you where you want to be without WD. It is less $$ (unless you dry PC coat) and supposedly gets to 357 mag velocities. Read the threads on H-T & PC for the answers.

[Beagle333]

Go softer? Yes, definitely. These are 162gr. 90% pure, 8%COWW, 2% tin, air cooled. I am running these through my 6" GP-100 over 6.5gr Unique and chrony reads avg of 1008fps and they go where I aim 'em. 'Nothing left in barrel but Unique dust. I'm very happy with the results! :D

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF017_zpseff35e38.jpg

[el34]

I suspect the same thing as you. Based on everything I could find about preventing leading including much-respected papers from Glen Fryxell I've always alloyed whatever lead I found to get a hardness of 12.5BHN, a bit harder than the coww I get. I add 2% tin for the good fillout but never experimented with reducing or omitting it.

Since one of the big advantages of PC is to insulate the barrel from the lead it's very believable that leading is no longer a big issue. For me that means less $mono needed. I'll mix for around 8-9BHN.

The only experience I have so far is with a near-max load for 357mag- 15.2gr 2400 behind a 158gr SWC in a Ruger Security Six. The barrel is shiny clean but with 12.5BHN alloy PCd boolits.

I'm glad you started a thread focused on this. Subjects of interest -

1/ can PCd boolits be loaded same as jacketed including max loads
2/ to what degree does alloy hardness matter
3/ is accuracy affected by PC

[el34]

Well, beagle's report is pretty strong. That guy always makes good lookin' boolits too.

[xacex]

My standard mix I use for most everything is 50/50 with tin. Depending on what I am shooting I will heat treat, or not. I do notice that there is some age hardening, and 50/50 may end up to hard after a year of sitting, so I am rethinking my mixture as well for pistol, or H/P molds. Seems I am being cut out on another supplier of coww as well so I have to conserve that type of alloy. From everything I have read you can go down to a 92/8/2 or below and still have good accuracy with P/C boolits. I am going to try with range lead myself, and see if I can use that straight.

[Beagle333]

I loaded these 358063's up with 6.0 gr of Unique. I didn't get the chrony out, but I think that's faster than 1,300. (chart says 6.4 is 1,465) Anyway, they didn't leave a speck of anything in the barrel or cylinder, and they shot nice and straight, just like a WC should.
These were tumbled using Rangefinder method. It sure doesn't waste any powder. There is none in the lube grooves (not needed anyway) and none left in the tumbling cup.
These are cast from 17:3 pure/COWW with hardly any tin.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/440010_zps7462d6de.jpg

I was shooting them into a sand berm. The second pic is the same batch of boolits, 'color seems different because there is no flash in the 1st pic and it's under a fluorescent light. But you can see, although some PC is missing and there is no way to know whether it came off during the ride or the trip through the sand, there is still enough on there that the boolit was riding on PC through the barrel.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/063004_zps1dbd1c0d.jpg

[el34]

From everything I have read you can go down to a 92/8/2 or below and still have good accuracy with P/C boolits.

xacex, 92/6/2 has an advertized hardness of 15BHN, same as Lyman #2. Are you talking rifle or handgun?

[popper]

I'm shooting 308 @ 2400 WD with 3% Sb/97% Pb, PCd. 94/8/2 is way more Sb than needed for 1500 fps. ~2%Sb for the HiTek ( and trying lower) in 9 & 40 (full book load), no problems. The H-T cooking reduces the hardness. 50/50 Pb/COWW PCd (you can HT whenever you want before loading if you need harder) should work fine for long colt. Try the dry PC coating (white or red HF) to save cost of gun & compressor.

[C. Latch]

1 - why AC HT'd boolits? You heat, then WD to harden alloy. If you want soft, skip the HT step. They may harden over time.

I do it for a very simple reason - as long as I don't get them so hot as to ruin them, heating them then letting them cool slowly ensures that every bullet in every batch is as soft as it can be without changing the alloy. The cost to run the oven for 30 minutes is virtually nothing, especially if I put them in when it's still hot from cooking, and for a beginner (me!) anything I can do to make a hair more consistent bullets is a positive thing.

[C. Latch]

These were tumbled using Rangefinder method.

Hmmm. Gonna have to go hunt for that now.

[xacex]

xacex, 92/6/2 has an advertized hardness of 15BHN, same as Lyman #2. Are you talking rifle or handgun?
Rifle, but I mix up a batch and use that for everything depending on what I have available that was free. Trying different methods such as water treating for rifle after P/C, and leaving the pistol untreated out of the oven. I figured the BHN to be around 9-10 un-treated, and up to 30 after H/T. But, just a guess at this point because I have nothing to test with but my pencil set. I have a feeling that you can use range lead, and do H/T for rifle and leave it soft for pistol with no issue. I will have to see. I am still working on the finer points to alloy mixing.

[Beagle333]

Hmmm. Gonna have to go hunt for that now.

It's a sticky. Really, the tumbling methods do work, 'just not as pretty as the ESPC. From my interpretation, Piglet method is tumbling with acetone and Rangefinder method is tumbling with lacquer thinner.
I like the lacquer thinner better. I don't have a garage, so when it's too windy or damp to ESPC, I can still use Rangefinder method under my lawnmower shed. It makes a nice coat and I cannot tell the difference between loading and shooting PC, no matter how I got it on the boolit.
These are equally as slippery.
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/tb2005_zpsc7739a5b.jpg
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt214/shutupandjump/PowderCoating/HF025_zps3395dd5e.jpg

I'm going to do some different styles in pure lead when the weather improves, and I'll make a thread about that. Hopefully next weekend. :smile:

[prickett]

Can you use softer alloy?

The answer is: it depends.

Yes, PC may allow softer alloy to be used, but if your load is too high pressure for the alloy, your accuracy WILL suffer and you still may get leading.

I shot pure lead and some softer than usual lead in my 9mm and both times got leading and keyholing. The pure lead wouldn't even hit an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper at 7 yards.

So, there still is a threshold you must be over in terms of hardness. It may be lower than if you use conventional lube, though.

[Beagle333]

I shot pure lead and some softer than usual lead in my 9mm and both times got leading and keyholing. The pure lead wouldn't even hit an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper at 7 yards.


Thanks for that info. I won't make a lot of em then, 'til I test a small batch. ;)

[prickett]

Thanks for that info. I won't make a lot of em then, 'til I test a small batch. ;)

Great plan! I had a lovely evening with a bullet puller due to NOT doing that :-(

[popper]

C. Latch Understand what you are doing with the HT. I did some tests when I first started casting, HT does give a little better grain consistency even on AC, not by much.
Prickett - use your case sizer - much easier than a puller for cast. Swages down the boolit so it almost pops out & then dump powder back into a can. No mess, no fuss. Woks for straight or bottleneck cases. I was using a short tube & pliers as a puller, no more.

[Beetmagnet]

Here are some 100% lead HP Lyman devastators that I cast. I used HF red on them. They shot great and opened up nicely. The only problem I had was that the opening of the HP got squished in a bit by the sizing die.
9111291113

[Beagle333]

Nice, soft HPs! 'Looks like they 'shroom very well. :-D



The only problem I had was that the opening of the HP got squished in a bit by the sizing die.
I'm guessing you didn't have a Lee push-thru die?

[C. Latch]

Here are some 100% lead HP Lyman devastators that I cast. I used HF red on them. They shot great and opened up nicely. The only problem I had was that the opening of the HP got squished in a bit by the sizing die.
9111291113


Good looking bullets. Any idea what impact velocity that second picture was?

[Beetmagnet]

Nice, soft HPs! 'Looks like they 'shroom very well. :-D
I'm guessing you didn't have a Lee push-thru die?

I actually mis/spoke/typed. I meant to say seating die, not sizing die. I use the Lee seating die, and it squished the HP opening. I took that out and used the Dillon die with the truncated side, and that worked better.

[Beetmagnet]

Good looking bullets. Any idea what impact velocity that second picture was?

Strangely enough, the velocity of those HP's with COWW lead was around 1080fps. Those in that picture, and the picture to the right came in around 950fps. I was shocked it opened up at all.

[C. Latch]

If they'd do that at 950', I'm guessing that something like 3:1 SOWW:COWW would hold together on a deer (but expand fully) at 1100 to 1200. Very interesting.

......counting the days until santa brings me a PC setup. :)

[Beetmagnet]

If they'd do that at 950', I'm guessing that something like 3:1 SOWW:COWW would hold together on a deer (but expand fully) at 1100 to 1200. Very interesting.

......counting the days until santa brings me a PC setup. :)

The "raining on my day off" trend has kept me from really testing and chronagraphing. Some of those bullets opened up down to the base of the HP cavity, and the mushroom like pedals broke off. These were all sub-950fps.

[Maximumbob54]

Second time tonight I'm posting this pic:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/Maximumbob54/Reloading%20and%20Casting/IMG_20131221_165828916_zps027tgufi.jpg (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/Maximumbob54/media/Reloading%20and%20Casting/IMG_20131221_165828916_zps027tgufi.jpg.html)

These are made from range scrap. It's soft enough you can mark the lead pretty easily with a finger nail. Then two coats of epoxy later they are sized down to .357" and loaded under a load of Unique from 4.5gr to 5.4gr and NONE of them shot worth a darn. And yet that same bullet in a 12.4gr of AA #9 load was fairly accurate. It seems like as far as typical lead bullet thinking goes I would have the opposite happen with them. [smilie=1:

[C. Latch]

Well, it's the 21st and I'm hoping to have a PC setup here in a few days, so I cast another handful of .452-300s for my .45 Colt this afternoon. Half of them from the WW/Sn that was left in the pot from last time, then when the pot was down to about 4 pounds, I added 4 pounds of SOWW and a couple ounces of pewter, fluxed, then ran another batch.