38 Special carbine

[Steve Gold]

This is my first post, thou I have been lurkin and learning for a couple of years now.

First i will list the hardware then discribe my dificulty.

Load: 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 Trail Boss under a Lyman 358665 @ .358" with a WSP primer

Rifle: Thompson contender, 16.1 inch Bulberry bull barrel (new) with match chamber, and Leouplod 4x scope.


I am having difficulty getting the group size down even at 25 Yds, with a rest I would at least expect cloverleaf groups before moving on to 50 and 75 Yds. I am getting 2.5, 2, and 4 inch groups for the loads listed.

I have Bullseye and 2400 powder on the shelf but cannot get any Unique localy.

Any ides where I might be going wrong?


Steve

AK4WG

[44Vaquero]

How is your crimp? I have found that TB likes a heavy crimp.

[Jupiter7]

Is it a .38spl barrel or a 357? What about OAL?

Fwiw, I've found that 3.5gr bullseye under 358156 to be accurate in every gun I've shot it in. It'll cloverleaf at 50 in my brothers 16" Rossi 92. At 25 I can get the same results from 4" model 10. Personally I taper crimp.

[Blammer]

what are you sizing your bullets to?

[Steve Gold]

Thanks for the replies. The chamber is for 38 special, bullets are sized at .358". I use the lee FCD because even a slight roll crimp causes a slight bulge below the crimp, making it hard to chamber.

I shall load some rounds with Bullseye this PM and shoot them at the range on Saturday.

Thanks

[bhn22]

Is the barrel leading? FCD dies aren't everybodys favorite for cast bullets. You may need to consider taper crimping if you have a really tight chamber. Are you using match brass, wadcutter brass, or mixed brass?

[dverna]

How does the gun shoot with factory loads or factory bullets?

I would look at bullets and/or crimp before worrying about brass or powder if groups are up to 4" at 25 yards.

Don Verna

[Rustyleee]

Not to question your ability, BUT... the way you hold your T/C could have a lot to do with it. I shoot quite a few Handi Rifles and hey are very particular as to how you have to shoot them off the bench. Try moving your forward bag so that it rests right under the hinge pin.

[Ben]

Lee FCD is most likely not your friend.

Please don't take what I'm saying wrong.........but as you look for " variables " that may be affecting performance.

Have a known expert shot try your weapon with some of his " known and proven .38 Spec. loads " .

If you've still got eratic blown groups after he shoots your weapon , there is a problem somewhere.

Scope mount bases on T/C's have a reputation for shaking loose, have you checked the screws on your bases and rings ?

When everything is right, your rig should be shooting ragged 1 hole groups at 50 yards.

Ben

[bhn22]

Thinking back with rusty machinery, I seem to remember that Contenders can string shots vertically if you allow the butt stock to contact anything in recoil, except your shoulder of course. Are your groups round or elongated? It could simply be that the rifle doesn't like your technique.

[Iowa Fox]

Steve, I love the TC platform and sometimes it takes a little to get them there. The first thing I would check is head space. What I mean by that is make sure the end of the barrel is not touching the breech block in the frame, you want a couple of thousands of clearance which you can check with a feeler gage as you close the barrel on the frame. Sometimes I had to try multiple frames to get it correct because the barrels would touch the block when closed. Use a magic marker on the bolt lugs to make sure you are getting full engagement. If you are not the barrel will close in a different position in the frame every time for you. Send Bullberry an email and ask them if his 38 spec chamber is throat'd for cast bullets, I don't think he throats for cast unless you tell him to which is just a little more leade angle to consistently guide the bullets into the bore without catching . I never crimp for the TC in the 357 or 44 mag, I just iron out the flare to straighten the case back up so it will chamber. On mine I don't even resize cases I just deprime-prime and seat a fat bullet that fits the throat into the case after faring the case slightly. If you are sizing cases be sure to use and M die to open them back up and get your flare. Bullseye & 2400 will be good for you accuracy testing. Let us know what you find as I really like the TC's and always eager to gain more insight on them, I know very well Freds barrels will shoot. Above all avoid the snake oil salesmen selling fixes for the TC.

[Steve Gold]

The groups were round.

Headspace seems OK, the action is easier to open after some 100 rounds fired.

The order specified to be used with lead bullets, a talk with their tech resulted in the use of the tight reamer not the "loose SAMMI" one. This is why I can't roll crimp, the tech pointed this out after I sent some dummy rounds to Bullberry.

Scope and rings are tight, I had the six screw steel rail fitted with Leupold PRW low rings.

I have loaded up 25 rounds with 3.0 gr bullseye and 25 with 10.5 gr of 2400 to take to the range in the morning.

I have put quite a bit of cash into this project and am now prepared to work at getting the best accuracy out of it.
The plan is to work out a subsonic load as I want this for a suppressor host.

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

Steve

[runfiverun]

can't roll crimp?
if you are getting a bulge, your crimp is not set properly or you have cases that are longer than others.
try seating all your boolits.
then go back through and roll crimp them.
throw the FCD in the garbage and forget about it dies worked fine for 100 years before that thing looking to turn mistakes into money come along.

[leftiye]

Do away with a variable - the crimp. It is not needed in a single shot. Probly the most uniform crimp is no crimp. Doesn't size boolits down either. Size boolits as big as will chamber. Seat as long as will chamber too. May pull boolit out of case if extracted without firing. Fire them, or shorten as needed to not stick them in the rifling.

[dondiego]

+1 on the above.

[bhn22]

Have you tried a box of really good factory target ammo? We're going in all sorts of directions here. It still could be anything.

[mdi]

Thanks for the replies. The chamber is for 38 special, bullets are sized at .358". I use the lee FCD because even a slight roll crimp causes a slight bulge below the crimp, making it hard to chamber.

I shall load some rounds with Bullseye this PM and shoot them at the range on Saturday.

Thanks

Don't use an FCD especially with lead bullets. Try this; load one round as you usually do, including the FCD. Now pull the bullet from the round and measure it. If it's the same size as before it was seated, OK, look somewhere else. But if the bullet has been swaged down, undersize for the barrel, evidence the FCD is your problem. My experience with the FCD was either bad or no effect at all. The FCD I owned for my .44 and lead bullets was bad, swaged bullets. With my 45 ACP ammo, it was like the die was not used...

[Steve Gold]

The lee FCD is simply a fancy roll crimp in this application, I have checked that the bullet can pass thru the carbide ring and a pulled bullet shows no change in diameter. Recovered bullets show clear engraving and there it no lead in the barrel.

I have followed several threads about the Lee FCD and many people do not realize that there are several variations on the theme.

I fired the 25 rounds with the 10.5 gr 2400 at 25 Yds and got one inch 5 shot groups better but not as good as expexted. I still have more to work to do.

Thanks for the suggestions

Steve

[Outpost75]

How hard is your alloy? With subsonic rifle loads I've always has best results with soft 1:30 or 1:40 tin/lead alloy, about 8 BHN. In my BSA Martini Cadet with AMU type .38 Special chamber and Green Mountain barrel, good factory wadcutters or Saeco #348 DEWC with 3.5 grains of Bullseye at 1.20" OAL will average about 1-1/2" over a long series of 5-shot groups at 50 yards off sandbags with 6x Unertl small game scope.

[Frank46]

You mentioned a tight reamer. Did you specify for a revolver cylinder or throated reamer foe a rifle?. Not trying to be funny just trying to help. Big difference between the two. Frank

[Steve Gold]

Outpost75, I am usung aircooled coww, I tried 50/50 but it casts slightly smaller and does not clean up fully in the .358 sizer die.

Frank46, I had a long chat with the tech / machinist and the reamer selected is for lead.


Has amyone here had better accuracy with the lyman 357665 in a rifle?

Steve

[mdi]

OK, your FCD is working for you. Try pulling a loaded bullet anyway, that way you'll know fer sure that your bullets enter the barrel at the correct diameter...

[cwheel]

I also work up 38/.357 loads in a BSA Martini Cadet. 2400 in a 38 special case just doesn't seam to develop enough to fully burn the powder charges evenly, mag or standard primers. I suspect my barrel is much longer than yours. Switching to almost any other standard powder yields a big improvement in groups. After working up rounds in the Martini, I move to a Smith and Wesson 14/686 and good results in the Martini almost always works out the same in the pistols. For your carbine, thinking getting something other than 2400 as a powder for 38 will get you there. 2400 tests well in the same rifle and pistols with a mag primer in a .357 case for some reason. In a 38 special case, almost always some unburned powder left in the chamber and barrel. Unique is one of the best in both rounds producing groups under a inch @50 yards with open sights if I do my part. Many others work as well. In the testing phase of working up the loads, I'd quit crimping until you get the load worked out, especially in a single shot without a mag or tube.
Chris

[Outpost75]

I am using as-cast .360" bullets in my BSA Martini and Marlin 1894 Cowboy. Most accurate load is 190-grain NEI #161A cast 1:40 with Lee Liquid Alox, seated out in .38 Special brass to 1.55" OAL with 4 grs. of Bullseye for about 1000 fps in the Martini, shoots sub-inch five-shot groups at 50 yards from the Martini and under 3" at 100 yards with scope over long series of many groups.

[cwheel]

Bullseye works well in my Martini as well, but, same loads are not as impressive in my IMI Timberwolf. Thinking the OP has a powder and crimp problem.
Chris