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Boarderguy83
12-11-2013, 03:06 AM
Hello all, I have encountered a problem that I have not heard of anyone else experiencing. I have been shooting PC'd bullets for about 2.5 months, and have had great results with them in several competitions so far. I am shooting them from a G19 with a lone wolf barrel. The problem I have encountered is that the rifling just after my chamber seems to be eroding. At first I thought this was just a large amount of freebore that I hadn't noticed yet in any of my previous cleaning sessions, but after several other shooting and cleaning sessions, it appears that the rifling has eroded more. I have a few pictures of what Im talking about. I have compared my barrel to several other glock barrels, and mine really does appear to have eroded a lot. On my last range session, last week, I noticed that a few rounds had started keyholing, this is something that I have not had happen to me yet with my loads in any of my 9mm pistols. I haven't noticed any rifling erosion in any of my other 9mm's, but admittedly I shoot my Glock A LOT more. I am not ready to say that the PC'd bullets have caused this or not, but I wanted to know if anyone else had experienced anything similar to this in any pistol EVER. Any help with this would be appreciated.

90193 This is a picture from the chamber looking out to the Muzzle. You can see that after the end of the chamber that the case mouth indexes on, there is a very LARGE amount of freebore before the bullet starts to make contact with the rifling.

90194 This is a picture from the Muzzle looking in toward the chamber. The erosion can be seen here too.

popper
12-11-2013, 11:02 AM
What was it before you started using PC and what powder do you use? Can you compare the original and 'now' slugged bore/groove? Really going to have to document the claim that PC wears the barrel faster than jacketed.

Doc Highwall
12-11-2013, 12:26 PM
My opinion is even though the powder coat is not hard is that it is abrasive and you are essentially fire lapping the barrel with each shot. Just my opinion now mind you.

xacex
12-11-2013, 01:52 PM
I would have to ask several questions about what I see there. Specific powder used, specific P/C used,hardness of the material of the Lone Wolf barrels,approximate round count, to mention a few. I was looking at a MSDS, and most of the opaque colors have titanium dioxide which could be abrasive. Thanks for sharing

ebner glocken
12-11-2013, 02:13 PM
This is worth looking into futher. It may be the PC that is abrasive. What feels slick in your hand might be abrasive when slammed through a barrel at high pressure and velocity. I don't know how many rounds you shoot through your glock in 2.5 months but I'm willing to bet it's plenty. If this is the case it's surprising that a guy shooting a 9mm would be the first one to notice, not the guy shooting a 30/06 @ 2500 fps. I have not noticed any erosion yet, then again I've shot only 10s of rounds.....not 1000s of rounds. You have my attention.

Ebner

Boarderguy83
12-11-2013, 03:36 PM
Sorry for not including any info about my load. I'm using 4.7 GR of Unique under a cast and coated Lee 356-120 TC. I am using the black Harbor Freight PC applied with the ES gun, and sized after coating. Approximate round count with JUST the PC'd rounds would be just over 1000. Prior to shooting any PC'd boolits, I only shot plated bullets from Xtreme. As I said in my first post I am not willing to blame the problem on the PC just yet, but it does seem to be the only thing I have done different. I am going to put my stock Glock barrel back in and keep this "test" rolling. Thank you for all the replies.

John

xacex
12-11-2013, 05:00 PM
That seems like a real low round count to do that kind of damage. I have that many through one of my 45's, but it is a slower round, and I did use other powders than just the black HF powder. I would suspect the black HF powder, or the barrel manufacture.

popper
12-11-2013, 05:49 PM
Interesting you get keyholeing, which would indicate undersized or worn lands - not just throat wear. I've only used white & red, probably will trade the black for red if they'll let me. It probably has a carbon based color. Now you have to figure out how to measure the barrel to check for wear. I've used lots of unique for 40, no problem after thousands of rnds.

leadman
12-11-2013, 06:17 PM
I am a guy that shot the 30-06 at 2500 fps. I don't know the exact round count but 50 rounds would be the tops. A big difference. I did not record before and after of the bore either.
What you could do is buy some Cerrosafe and do a cast of the chamber and throat area. Make sure to measure it as the dimensions change with time. I usually do an immediate measuring, then at 1/2 hour and 1 hour. Then continue to shoot it and measure it after a few hundred rounds.
The keyholing might indicate too small of a boolit. The cast would allow you to compare the throat to a boolit pulled from one of your cartridges.

waksupi
12-11-2013, 06:18 PM
Please keep us updated on this.

ffries61
12-11-2013, 08:05 PM
Glad this thread came up, I asked about the possibilty of barrel wear a few months ago in another thread, and the response I got insinuated I was an idiot for even asking.

Fred

jcameron996
12-11-2013, 09:44 PM
I'm also very interested in this. I had been thinking I had found the answer to my 9mm leading issues. More study may be in order.

MUSTANG
12-11-2013, 11:04 PM
I am interested too, I received 1 pound each of Harbor Freight PC in Red, Yellow, White and Black this afternoon from UPS. I had watched the variety of threads for a year and thought I was finally ready to jump in to coat and test some PC boolits. Now this thread makes me wonder if it was a case of "Ready, Fire, Aim". :holysheep

MUSTANG
12-11-2013, 11:51 PM
Duplicate Post Deleted.

geargnasher
12-12-2013, 12:27 AM
The results of a few people using the HF powders so far in their pistols hasn't included much in the way of barrel wear reports, so this is interesting.

Those of us who have been discussing the potential advantages of PC'ing rifle boolits were very concerned with wear issues since the beginning, and I have even considered a test using a brand-new, "known soft", Savage factory .308 barrel to see if the concerns were warranted or not. I'm holding off until more results from the pistol shooters come in.

Thank you very much for the report, and please keep us posted.

I think most of the experience with coated boolits across the board hasn't been with HF black coating, so this may be an isolated case, or the barrel itself may be at fault and might well have eroded in a similar manner if you had used FMJ bullets. The keyholing is classic "oversized" barrel or "undersized" boolits, depending on how you look at it. Judging by the pictures, I am not surprised in the least that the boolits were beginning to keyhole.

Gear

Magana559
12-12-2013, 12:29 AM
hmmmm

freebullet
12-12-2013, 12:56 AM
What are the boolits being sized at & with what?

Boarderguy83
12-12-2013, 02:10 AM
I am sizing all of the boolits to .356 with the lee sizer die after the powder coat cures. I have measure a ton of them with a dial caliper after sizing and they are indeed coming out at .356. I slugged my bore with a soft lead slug before I began any of the lead reloading, and found it to be .356. I know that a good rule of thumb is to go .002 over, but after also measuring some of the plated bullets that I used to use, they come out at .355, and I have shot several thousand of them through this barrel. To be fair, I had not checked for any erosion while shooting plated rounds, but honestly who thinks that the rifling in a pistol will erode while shooting any kind of jacketed ammo, especially at low velocity. I have only had the lone wolf barrel for about a year and a half, and I would never have believed that it would be possible to start eroding rifling from it in that short amount of time. I mean I could see if I were taking classes every week, or doing high round count competitions every week, but I'm not. I am putting the stock barrel back in, and will be shooting what I have left of the HF black PC'd boolits (that's about 700 rds.) to test and see if any of the stock rifling erodes. I wish I had the money to buy a new lone wolf barrel, as I would try it with a different color HF PC, and see if I get the same results, but you all know how that goes. Maybe Santa will get a visit from the Glock fairy, and bring me a new barrel for Christmas. I am not ready to give up on PC yet, as I love the process, and I love actually making my own ammo. Everyone that see's them is amazed that you can actually PC a boolit. Anyway, I will keep everyone updated on what comes of this.

fastglock
12-12-2013, 06:26 AM
Yikes!!! very interesting thread I'm going to start inspecting my KKM & 300BLK barrels.

runfiverun
12-12-2013, 08:35 AM
if there is titanium dioxide in the powder I can assure you it will sand down a steel barrel.
I use bright white printer paper containing ti dioxide to polish some of my rougher barrels out by fire-lapping with it.

eljefeoz
12-12-2013, 09:54 AM
if there is titanium dioxide in the powder I can assure you it will sand down a steel barrel.
I use bright white printer paper containing ti dioxide to polish some of my rougher barrels out by fire-lapping with it.
:holysheep
And I had rolled a couple of dozen .284 sized down to .277 145gr RCBS SIL type projjies, with plain white printer paper...last of the white paper PP, better search around for that 16# 'green something' paper

xyankeeworkshop
12-12-2013, 10:32 AM
Would Titanium Dioxide be used as a pigment in anything other than a white PC?

popper
12-12-2013, 11:59 AM
Sorry R5R, but titanium dioxide is NOT considered an abrasive ( or not a good one). Just above enamel & plastic in mohr hardness. 4-5 won't etch steel (plastics), does clean debris. Coated won't even remove lead from the barrel. TiO2 ~ 6. Now Aluminum oxide is different. The clays used in paper are generally the abrasive. I've gone ~2K 40sw boolits, coated in HF white, put down the barrel of my XDm 40. Also many boxes of WWB, > 1K Xtreme plated, 1K of MBC IDP5, ~1K of recluse/LLA. So I looked at it this morning - NO visible wear. No loss in accuracy or keyholeing and I use a hard alloy, look at the pics of my recovered slugs. I can't really see anything in the pic, kind of fuzzy. Borderguy stated his real problem for the keyholeing - boolits too small. 356 in a 356 bore, he didn't state the alloy, isn't 4.7 unique a mid range load in 9? I did stay away from the HiTek coatings with metallics for this exact reason. No, I'm not saying his metallics will cause wear, just don't know.

xyankeeworkshop
12-12-2013, 12:17 PM
Thanks for that, Popper. That perspective has me breathing a little easier since I've completely come over to the new world of PC and burned my ships behind me.

This little controversy does beg other questions: With PC boolits, is it the epoxy/polyester base, the pigment, or the combination of the two that makes it effective? Being a Pigletcoater, I look at that glass jar of acetone on the shelf with a pretty layer of HFPC red settled at the bottom and wonder what would happen if I were to filter the sediment out and "clearcoat" my boolits instead as an experiment.

fastglock
12-12-2013, 12:27 PM
All GOOD on my end !! Not a hint of wear :bigsmyl2:

Kimber 45 - 400rds
G35 KKM- 1500 rds
G34 KKM- 600 rds
16" 300BLK SS Stoner- 1000 rds
13.75" 300BLK - 2000rds

All boolits coated with black gloss TGIC . ES or tumble.

Doc Highwall
12-12-2013, 12:46 PM
i just thought of something has anybody looked to see if they have any wear on their sizing die after sizing PC bullets besides their gun barrel?

waksupi
12-12-2013, 12:47 PM
Glad this thread came up, I asked about the possibilty of barrel wear a few months ago in another thread, and the response I got insinuated I was an idiot for even asking.

Fred

That was the kind of reply I had also received. Maybe I did have reason for concern.

popper
12-12-2013, 01:06 PM
Yankee - I think the stuff on the bottom is plastic, clear is solvent. Even with the lacquer thinner. Doc - speed through the Lee sizer is too slow to really cause any wear. I think the TiO2 % in white paint is very low, expect it to be the same in PC, if it is really used - we don't know. Will it wear out a barrel? Will jacketed wear out a barrel in 243 after 10K rounds? Personally, I see no accelerated wear and if mine wear out, I'll just replace them. AR barrels are only a few $100.
No one is an idiot for asking almost anything. Caution is always wise. I have decided not to use the HF black, it is flat black and probably more 'granular'. If they won't trade it for red I only lose $5. Now out to cast another 500 40sw with a softer alloy. Play time again.

Aunegl
12-12-2013, 01:15 PM
Would Titanium Dioxide be used as a pigment in anything other than a white PC?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide

destrux
12-12-2013, 02:45 PM
i just thought of something has anybody looked to see if they have any wear on their sizing die after sizing PC bullets besides their gun barrel?

No, my Lee push through die has popped out about 600 perfect .401 bullets with no increase in diameter. I did notice the sizing ram has become polished, but I attribute that to it operating unlubricated, not anything to do with the powder coat.

I will say that I powder coated some AR-15 magazines with the HF flat black powder and you can file your fingernails with them, but the anodizing in the mag well of my AR has actually worn the powder coating from usage, so it's softer than anodizing.

I haven't noticed any damage in any of my firearms, but none of them have eclipsed 1000 rounds of it yet and I've only used the red on bullets so far (and now I may never try the black). I wonder if they make clear powder coat? That would sidestep any unnecessary ingredients that could be causing wear.

NWPilgrim
12-12-2013, 02:52 PM
Wouldn't throat wear indicate hot gas rather than bullet jacket? It seems if the coating was the abrasive that the entire length of the rifling would show increased wear. If it is just the throat that is worn, would not that indicate gas passing around the bullet (not obturating quickly enough)? What is the hardness of the lead?

xacex
12-12-2013, 03:24 PM
I am looking into the MSDS a little more, and found one black TGIC that has quartz in it. That will wear a barrel. http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&lang=E&doctype=MSDS&prodno=PBS4-C0009 Quarts has a Mohs hardness of 7 which would be considered an abrasive hardness. Not a 9, but close enough.

Several colors have titanium dioxide in them.

It might be wise to look at the MSDS of the different powers we use, and avoid those colors that have titanium dioxide or quatz as ingredients. Candy, and clears?

Boarderguy83
12-12-2013, 03:28 PM
The lead im casting is made of used WW's. I am leaving the bases of the rounds clean lead, while PC covers the rest of the bullet. If you all believe that the problem lies in the use of the flat black HF PC, then I will have to burn through the last of the black HF rounds that I have, and get some of the HF red, and see how that does through the pistol with the stock barrel. A new barrel isnt that expensive, and I really love this entrire PC process, so Im going to go about doing what I need to do, to continue PCing my rounds. Thank you all for the replies, and input.

John

Boarderguy83
12-12-2013, 03:36 PM
NWPilgrim, please excuse my ignorance, but I am confused as to how the hot gasses would erode the rifling simply by escaping from around the bullet. The hot gasses are what propells the bullet down the bore, so, wouldn't the hot gasses touch all of the rifling on every shot evenly? Just a question from a relative newby.

John

xyankeeworkshop
12-12-2013, 03:41 PM
http://www.specialchem4polymers.com/tc/titanium-dioxide/index.aspx?id=abrasion

"The hard truth about the abrasiveness of TiO2...

Titanium dioxide pigments are harder and more abrasive than most other additives used in plastics applications."

And just how abrasive is that, exactly?

OTOH, to keep it in perspective: There are lots of ways to wear a bore.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8648

I've only used the HF red as well with no problems that I've managed to notice. I need to take a closer look. The unopened jug of HF black I have may just stay in that unopened state. I do know that clear powdercoats are indeed manufactured, so that may just be the next trial.

xyankeeworkshop
12-12-2013, 03:44 PM
...but if what Xacex says is true, maybe clear powder with quartz in it isn't such a hot idea. :mrgreen:

oldgeezershooter
12-12-2013, 04:04 PM
Wouldn't throat wear indicate hot gas rather than bullet jacket? It seems if the coating was the abrasive that the entire length of the rifling would show increased wear. If it is just the throat that is worn, would not that indicate gas passing around the bullet (not obturating quickly enough)? What is the hardness of the lead?
Maybe he is also getting barrel wear. Thus the keyholeing.Might also get the barrel checked for proper hardness.

TheDoctor
12-12-2013, 04:06 PM
Wouldn't throat wear indicate hot gas rather than bullet jacket? It seems if the coating was the abrasive that the entire length of the rifling would show increased wear. If it is just the throat that is worn, would not that indicate gas passing around the bullet (not obturating quickly enough)? What is the hardness of the lead?

That was what I was thinking. If the boolit ran out of coating, then severe leading should result in the unworn portion of the barrel, I would think.

xacex
12-12-2013, 04:10 PM
Quartz was in the Black P/C of that particular brand that I linked to. The clear shouldn't have any of that in it, and no Ti because it is not an opaque color. That would be my choice right now.

I did manage to get a hold of H/F, and they sent me the MSDS for all of their powders. In the black P/C no Ti is mentioned, but one thing they put on their with no mention of what it is bothers me. They list "matting agent" in there as one of the harmful substances. What ever makes it have a mat finish might be the culprit. Also included are Baryte which is a soft mineral, and Calcite which is also a soft mineral.

All of the other H/F colors have Titanium dioxide, and a pigment called middle chrome? I hope it doesn't have Chromium in it. That is hard stuff 8.5 Mohs.

I don't know how to put PDF's in here so if anyone would like to look over the H/F P/C MSDS for any or all of the colors shoot me a pm, and I can email it out.

TheDoctor
12-12-2013, 04:11 PM
NWPilgrim, please excuse my ignorance, but I am confused as to how the hot gasses would erode the rifling simply by escaping from around the bullet. The hot gasses are what propells the bullet down the bore, so, wouldn't the hot gasses touch all of the rifling on every shot evenly? Just a question from a relative newby.

John

IIRC, hot gasses bypassing the bullet will have a serious effect on the throat. They travel MUCH faster than they will propel a boolit. Look at the flame cutting that occurs with some revolvers. And there is the idea that the forcing cone splitting on the Smith 19's shooting light bullets is partially attributed to the severe impact of gas bypass.

popper
12-12-2013, 04:28 PM
Borderguy - most throat erosion is due to hot gas & burning powder particles at high velocity. 303guy had some pics of boolit bases dented by burning 4895. The Dupont site has a lot of plastic/TiO2 data if someone has a company address that can register and make data available to us? Last time I read the TiO2 content in white paint, it was < 10%. Oh, mohr hardness of annealed copper is 7, most TiO2 is 6. It is also used in suntan lotion, makeup. Probably less hard than fish scales used in makeup. Yes, if you shoot a $2K barrel you might be concerned. But so would guilding metal used in jackets.
It's NOT abrasive enough (HF PC) to remove even minor leading in the barrel. Visible lead in my 40 wasn't removed after 200 rnds PCd. IMHO, until proved otherwise - not a problem.
The yellow has lead chromate coloring in it, a yellow pigment called 'middle chrome'. Navy used it for years as an aluminum corrosion protection. It is slightly toxic. Kind of like red lead. Both red & yellow chrome have mohr hardness of 3. Not a problem.

Boarderguy83
12-12-2013, 04:47 PM
Popper and Doc, thank you both for that, I was completely unaware. I do appreciate learning new things.

John

popper
12-12-2013, 05:08 PM
are sure that what you are calling erosion is not just the taper at the start of the rifling?

Boarderguy83
12-12-2013, 05:57 PM
Absolutely not. I know the pictures dont really show the erosion very well, but I promise you that there is a solid .5 inch of "freebore" before the bullet would actually start to engage the rifling. I can actually look just forward of the chamber and see where the rifling used to be. When comparing my bore to other Glock 19 bores, this one is definitely been eroded in some fashion. I wish I could get some better pictures to post on here.

John

Cane_man
12-12-2013, 06:13 PM
maybe this particular barrel slipped thru QC... substandard machining, poor heat treating, defective bar stock ???

Doc Highwall
12-12-2013, 06:21 PM
Having worked with abrasives both polishing and lapping compounds some compounds break down faster then others, which could explain why the first .5" shows the wear in the barrel also the lead in the sizing die not being subjected to higher pressures might not show any wear at all.

MUSTANG
12-12-2013, 08:42 PM
Well looks like I had a fat finger when I placed my order. I opened the Harbor Freight box containing the Powder Coat this afternoon, I thought I had ordered 1 each Red/White/Yellow/Black; but I had three - yes three 1 pound cans of black Harbor Freight Powder Coat. It would be the one that is MOST SUSPECT for abrasion concerns.

Well, I guess that I'll wait and see what the posts say to refute or confirm the Black Harbor Freight PC is abrasive. If it turns out reports confirm it is abrasive, well my fall back plan revolves around a Brazilian Contract S&W 1937 .45acp/.45 auto rim; a re-run of the Smith & Wesson US Model 1917. I bought this revolver back in the late 1980's, and it shot terribly with jacketed hardball, the barrel literally looks like a sewer pipe on the inside, but pretty fair on the outside. Lee and RCBS 230 grain round nose cast boolits shoot fair. What is strange, is that a 250 grain .45 wadcutter shoots the X ring out with ten rounds at 25 yards when I do my part, but flattens primers.

Long way around, I may consider making lemonaide by using the Harbor Freight Black PC with .45 Round Nose Cast Boolits to smooth out the sewer pipe if it should prove to be mildly abrasive.



I sent Harbor Freight an e-mail request this afternoon for the MSDS on all 4 of their Powder Coat paints. I'll try to post the MSDS's here when I get them.

Magana559
12-12-2013, 09:06 PM
subscribed!

NWPilgrim
12-13-2013, 01:44 AM
IIRC, hot gasses bypassing the bullet will have a serious effect on the throat. They travel MUCH faster than they will propel a boolit. Look at the flame cutting that occurs with some revolvers. And there is the idea that the forcing cone splitting on the Smith 19's shooting light bullets is partially attributed to the severe impact of gas bypass.

Plus, the gas is hottest, most compressed near the chamber. As gases expand they cool. So the further the gas expands down the barrel the cooler it gets.

Boarderguy83
12-13-2013, 02:46 AM
Thank you for all the replies, I am glad to see so much interest in this particular subject. I am really hoping that some how by a strange turn of events, I received a bad barrel, and that the black HF PC is not actually the problem. NWPilgrim, thank you for the information, I was absolutely ignorant about that.

John

Cane_man
12-13-2013, 12:54 PM
haven't shooters in Europe been PC'ing for quite sometime now... has anyone heard about problems like this from over the pond?

Thundermaker
12-13-2013, 02:15 PM
I've been trying to find another instance of this. Nothing is turning up. Powder coating seems to be very popular among .300aac shooters. They aren't reporting any problems. Everybody is using the harbor freight stuff, but not the matte finish stuff.

TES
12-13-2013, 02:38 PM
My test results for HF Black were horrid. See HFPC "Piglet method" for my results. I stopped after all the crud in my barrel.

Thundermaker
12-13-2013, 05:01 PM
Maybe it has something to do with whatever they use for pigment. Black car paint doesn't hold up as well as other colors either.

Boarderguy83
12-13-2013, 06:00 PM
Well I honestly hope its just the matte black stuff that is the problem. Im going to go to HF today and buy some of the red, and see how that works out, as it seems many folks have had great results with that, and no reports of erosion.

John

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
12-13-2013, 07:55 PM
Could you try to post some more pictures? Maybe try to get the lighting just right so we can see the erosion? Thanks a bunch!

Tony

badbill2
12-13-2013, 08:07 PM
I have not had any excessive wear with the PC boolits, however, I did mention awhile back that the HB "Black Color" must have different compounds from the other colors. This is evident when cooking and getting a gummier coating that appears thicker and more resilient??

hubcap52
12-14-2013, 12:36 AM
Seems to me that the speed a boolit goes down a barrel would have 0 to with how much it eroded any metal. While it might erode it faster, it wouldn't erode it more. I think someone also mentioned to check the wear on the sizing die. Should be equal to any bore wear. One could also PC an ingot (or any other piece of metal for that matter) and rub it on a piece of same or similar metal and check the results.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
12-14-2013, 01:16 AM
A bullet going down the barrel engages the rifles and it swaged down a bit more than when it goes through a sizing die. Plus, as it engages the rifling it begins to spins but wants to keep going straight. There is an immense amount of stress on both the bullet and the rifling which creates much more pressure than just being pushed through a sizing die. Ever fire a big bore handgun and the gun spins off in one direction during recoil? That is literally the bullet spinning the gun in your hands.

MUSTANG
12-16-2013, 07:17 PM
Well looks like I had a fat finger when I placed my order. I opened the Harbor Freight box containing the Powder Coat this afternoon, I thought I had ordered 1 each Red/White/Yellow/Black; but I had three - yes three 1 pound cans of black Harbor Freight Powder Coat. It would be the one that is MOST SUSPECT for abrasion concerns.

Well, I guess that I'll wait and see what the posts say to refute or confirm the Black Harbor Freight PC is abrasive. If it turns out reports confirm it is abrasive, well my fall back plan revolves around a Brazilian Contract S&W 1937 .45acp/.45 auto rim; a re-run of the Smith & Wesson US Model 1917. I bought this revolver back in the late 1980's, and it shot terribly with jacketed hardball, the barrel literally looks like a sewer pipe on the inside, but pretty fair on the outside. Lee and RCBS 230 grain round nose cast boolits shoot fair. What is strange, is that a 250 grain .45 wadcutter shoots the X ring out with ten rounds at 25 yards when I do my part, but flattens primers.

Long way around, I may consider making lemonaide by using the Harbor Freight Black PC with .45 Round Nose Cast Boolits to smooth out the sewer pipe if it should prove to be mildly abrasive.



I sent Harbor Freight an e-mail request this afternoon for the MSDS on all 4 of their Powder Coat paints. I'll try to post the MSDS's here when I get them.




Earlier in the thread there discussion of the MSDS's for Harbor Freight Powder Coat Paints, but an inability to post them to this thread. Attached are MSDS Sheets for White, Red, Yellow, and the infamous Black Harbor Freight Powder Coat Paints.

90719907209072190722


Click over each of the 4 docs to get pdf's for each of the different colors.

dbosman
12-16-2013, 08:40 PM
Black has carbon black and the other colors are using titanium dioxides.
A quick check shows carbon black to be 2. - 2.9 on the Mohs scale and titanium dioxides to be 3.82 to 5.13 Mohs. <--- subject to change by people who know or find more than I did.

MUSTANG
12-16-2013, 08:48 PM
Although it is as clear as mud to me, I found a Data Sheet on MB55 (attached PDF); and the following for MD-68 as used in the Black Powder Coat:

90729


MB-68 Product Description

Low-gloss curing agent MB-68(also known as Hardener MB68)is a salt of organic polycaroxilic acid with a cyclic amidine.
1. Characteristics
Appearance: Fine powder(white)
Melting Range: 210~230º C
Purity: ≥ 99.5%
2. Application
Low-gloss curing agent MB-68 for epoxy resins and epoxy polyester hybrid powder coatings is used to achieve coatings with matt surface having excellent mechanical quality and wonderful reappearance.

Aunegl
12-17-2013, 01:15 PM
I think somebody is making mountains out of Mohs hills. A little search on Wikipedia: "On the Mohs scale, graphite (a principal constituent of pencil "lead") has a hardness of 1.5; a fingernail, 2.2–2.5; a copper penny, 3.2–3.5; a pocketknife 5.1; a knife blade, 5.5[clarification needed]; window glass plate, 5.5; and a steel nail, 5.5.[9] A streak plate (unglazed porcelain) has a hardness of 7.0. Using these ordinary materials of known hardness can be a simple way to approximate the position of a mineral on the scale."

xacex
12-17-2013, 02:24 PM
Earlier in the thread there discussion of the MSDS's for Harbor Freight Powder Coat Paints, but an inability to post them to this thread. Attached are MSDS Sheets for White, Red, Yellow, and the infamous Black Harbor Freight Powder Coat Paints.




Click over each of the 4 docs to get pdf's for each of the different colors.

Thanks Mustang!

xacex
12-17-2013, 02:37 PM
I think somebody is making mountains out of Mohs hills. A little search on Wikipedia: "On the Mohs scale, graphite (a principal constituent of pencil "lead") has a hardness of 1.5; a fingernail, 2.2–2.5; a copper penny, 3.2–3.5; a pocketknife 5.1; a knife blade, 5.5[clarification needed]; window glass plate, 5.5; and a steel nail, 5.5.[9] A streak plate (unglazed porcelain) has a hardness of 7.0. Using these ordinary materials of known hardness can be a simple way to approximate the position of a mineral on the scale."

As a Geologist I can say Mohs hardness is an important scale to judge suitability of materials for their intended use. We do not want to be using materials above a mohs hardness of 7.5-8 in a gun barrel or there will be rapid wear. Materials lower in the scale may also be abrasive to a lower extent. Mohs is just another tool in the tool box to judge a materials suitability. It was useful in Mineralogy, and Petrology, and it is completely applicable for judging material hardness of coating you may be sliding down the pipe. 95% of the materials we use today were a mineral at some point outside of plant,or polymer materials.
When you want to look of a term regarding Geology, or uses for mineral or their properties use this site. http://www.mindat.org/

It is a little more reputable than Wikipedia, and has a ton of information regarding materials we should, or should not be using.

OuchHot!
12-17-2013, 03:02 PM
Please note that mohs does not tell the whole story. A material can be very sizeably anisotropic like graphite. In plane (speaking of crystal lattice) it is very soft. Edge wise the lattice is hell on wheels. I wonder if any of these coatings use fumed silica as a bulking agent to keep it on the article during the early stages of heating? Fumed silica can be very bad even though it too is found in lipstick etc.

note. the matting agent is silica based!!!!!!
I thought as much. I have formulated similar materials and used fumed silica to either get them to hang while the curing reaction starts up or to give a nice finish......might look for high gloss formulations. I am no longer a specialist in this field so I could very well be wrong, but........

xacex
12-17-2013, 03:58 PM
You may not be a specialist, but you understand the basic principle of Chrystal structure and I assume types of bonding as well as I do. You bring up a great point about planes, and silica is one that can be very bad depending on its form. Not only is Si hard, but you get into the booked minerals like mica's where the bonds are week in one plane, but very strong in the other you will get a hard,abrasive edge no mater how small the pieces are.
I think it is wise to use all of the tools we have for determining what can be used, not just one like Mohs, or Crystallography. There is so much science involved with these aspects as well as Metallurgy tools we can use that this will take a village to break it all down.
Now, I just got some Copper sulfate to try out adding copper to my melt. I have a pot of lead calling me.

OuchHot!
12-17-2013, 04:50 PM
I am a materials scientist for a living (sometimes called a chem. eng, depends on which pays less) and have a metallurgy degree but my advanced study is in polymers. I just have not formulated thermosets like these for many years. Silica any way you cut it (sorry) is going to be abrasive. If the particle size is small enough the process is quite slow. Fumed silica used to be expensive but people's republic got in the act and it is used in a lot of places now. xacex mentions mica. I always got a little nervous when people started dusting their boolits with "motormica". I recall as a kid what happened when I used a graphite based grease in a high speed roller bearing.

In the case of graphite and mica, I suspect the sliding of the boolit orients the lattice and sliding (and the low mohs) predominates. There is no such free lunch with silica.

Beagle333
12-17-2013, 08:38 PM
So..... um...... is only the black supposed to be a little "scratchy", or are they all not as slippery as they feel?:?:

Moonman
12-17-2013, 08:51 PM
Looks like CARBON BLACK is in the HF black powder.

Coming from the TIRE INDUSTRY, I believe CARBON BLACK

is the FINEST as in SMALLEST SIZE "ABRASIVE" that there is. (1/300,000 of an inch in diameter)

Thundermaker
12-17-2013, 09:40 PM
So the take away is "don't use HF matte black"?

Magana559
12-17-2013, 10:34 PM
So much for the black boolits I wanted!

xacex
12-17-2013, 10:54 PM
I wouldn't completely write off H/F black. If it is mildly abrasive we can use it to our advantage shooting cast boolits. Lapping boolits cost good money, and as it stands it looks like we have a great lapping coating for our rifles and pistols so long as the diameter of the boolit it proper.

Cane_man
12-18-2013, 11:29 AM
which colors have the silica in them?


I am a materials scientist for a living (sometimes called a chem. eng, depends on which pays less) and have a metallurgy degree but my advanced study is in polymers. I just have not formulated thermosets like these for many years. Silica any way you cut it (sorry) is going to be abrasive. If the particle size is small enough the process is quite slow. Fumed silica used to be expensive but people's republic got in the act and it is used in a lot of places now. xacex mentions mica. I always got a little nervous when people started dusting their boolits with "motormica". I recall as a kid what happened when I used a graphite based grease in a high speed roller bearing.

In the case of graphite and mica, I suspect the sliding of the boolit orients the lattice and sliding (and the low mohs) predominates. There is no such free lunch with silica.

OuchHot!
12-18-2013, 05:40 PM
I just did a search on the matting agent and saw the silica. I would assume that a gloss coating might not use the matting agent and therefor be silica free. A lot depends on the type of silica used. Fumed silica can be very fine and amorphous and not near the problem. The issue is that fumed silica versus ground is more expensive and peoples' republic doesn't bother so much with managing the particle size. I would look up the various agents listed in the msds and try to avoid silica until someone else proves it to be harmless. Sorry...there are too many uncertainties. I am just very nervous about the use of silica as a viscosity modifier or matting agent. It might not be the cause of the erosion shown. Again, I haven't done this kinda work in years and I am just spewing my best wag.

C. Latch
12-19-2013, 01:05 AM
Just saw this thread. I'm hoping to get a complete PC kit for Christmas next week - including a pound of HF Black.

My .45 needs a bit of lapping, so this isn't too worrisome, but maybe after a couple hundred rounds I'll need to switch colors.

Cane_man
12-19-2013, 11:31 AM
i just ordered some high gloss orange, cures at 340F in 15', i'll see how it goes...

OuchHot!
12-19-2013, 03:29 PM
I'm thinking that at the end of the day, this PC technology could be a "holy grail" for us in letting us use more alloys over a broader range of velocities. Maybe even getting the lead dust down in indoor ranges and so forth. I think the PC thing just needs fine tuning and it looks like a good group of you are doing just that.

bruce381
12-19-2013, 10:44 PM
kinda off subjest BUT moly disilfide a good solid lube turns from a lube to an abrasive at ?/ forgot 700F or so.
perhaps the Ti dioxide does the same and in the barrel oxidizes and hardens as more booolits go down range?

popper
12-20-2013, 12:35 AM
Assuming the HF has TiO2, it gets sticky & gooey in the recycle pot so I'd say no - never any PC residue in the bbl. Can't guarantee it but think the OP has a different problem.

Stilly
12-20-2013, 05:54 AM
Welp. Folks I have been using Tiger Drylac coatings blue, flourescent green and Pacific Coatings Glow in the Dark. I have not had any issues yet but I will take another look. All of my coatings are glossy. I will see if I can get a msds on the glow in the dark (got it from a seller on fleabay...)... :\ In the meantime I say to have a closer look at that barrel and send it in to get replaced if possible. Then start over and watch the new one closely...

For what it is worth, I have also added a little hBN to my coatings, just to see if it made any difference. Uhhh, don;t ask about it just yet though cause I just started last week and have yet to shoot any... :\

Linstrum
12-20-2013, 06:44 AM
No mystery to me what is happening. The pigments and fillers used in coatings are quite often minerals like white titanium dioxide (already mentioned), artificial ultramarine blue lapis lazuli, red ochre, yellow ochre, and black magnetite. All those have corundum and silica (flint is a form of silica) contamination. Red ochre pigment is a commercial abrasive for steel and gems that contains hematite iron oxide. Black magnetite double iron oxide is easily identified with a strong magnet, and is also a commercial abrasive and polish used for gems and metals that is 1.5 to 2 points harder than many steels on Moh's Scale of Hardness used for minerals. Hardened and tempered steel = about 5.5 and red ochre and magnetite both = 7, a little harder than titanium white and about the same as flint or garnet sandpaper! I'd skip the colored PC and go with a clear polymer PC with molybdenum dioxide dry lubricant powder that YOU add for black color. I personally just use Alox for my cast wheel weight .38 Special, .357 Mag, 9mm Parabellum, and .45 APC ammo. Been using Alox since 1979 and I have no complaints. But whatever you choose, good luck on finding a replacement that is not also used for a commercial sandpaper abrasive to coat your boolits.

rl 1,174

ebner glocken
12-20-2013, 02:00 PM
magnetite- Very bad in boiler under high velocity, high pressure, and squeezed through valves. Erodes things quite quickly. Nothing you want in your barrel.

Ebner

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
12-20-2013, 02:22 PM
Maybe someone needs to run a group buy on clear powder coat from this place...

http://www.prismaticpowders.com/colors/PPS-4005/

Beagle333
12-20-2013, 02:46 PM
COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Ingredients:
*This product contains no reportable materials at or above normal reporting levels.

The clear can't be harmful.... it doesn't contain anything! ;)

Beetmagnet
12-20-2013, 10:29 PM
Maybe this is silly but I'll mention it. If the black matte abrasive finish is the problem, then maybe adding some of the other glossy colors to the black would help. I say this because I PC a few 45's the other day with the black. There was some white left in the gun, and they mixed together. The bullets came out all black, but glossy like the white and red HF powders. Perhaps we can still use the black HF powder (if it is a problem, and I'm not convinced it is) if we just mix in some white or red.

dverna
12-21-2013, 02:04 PM
If (and this is still a question) there is erosion, it will kill PC'ing for things like AR's and target guns. It will not have much impact on hunting guns unless someone does a lot of plinking/target shooting with them. But for velocities under 1600 or so, PC'ing is not really needed anyway.

I had come to the conclusion that I would continue to use traditional lube for pistol bullets anyway as it works fine and are easier to use - at least for me. Hy-Tek is a great option for pistol bullets if you do not want to invest in a Star - and Hy-Tek works very well in pistols. PC'ing seemed the best option for high velocity rifle bullets until this issue was raised.

Still too early to know if erosion is an issue or not. So this will be a watched thread for sure.

Don Verna

Maximumbob54
12-21-2013, 05:54 PM
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/Maximumbob54/Reloading%20and%20Casting/IMG_20131221_164023156_zpsqymfra89.jpg (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/Maximumbob54/media/Reloading%20and%20Casting/IMG_20131221_164023156_zpsqymfra89.jpg.html)

So this whole box of the same bullets coated with the same powder sized in the same Lee .357 die that start to finish are all still .357 in diameter but this stuff is supposed to be abrasive??? What am I not getting? I've not shot many of them yet but shouldn't the die be .358 by now? Is it only under pressure in the bore that these are a problem?

dverna
12-22-2013, 05:36 PM
MB54.
I would suspect velocity is a more significant issue to erosion than pressure.

There is also the matter of number of cycles. Shooting a slightly abrasive coating may not have much affect in 500 rounds but what about 5,000 or 20,000 rounds?

Don Verna

popper
12-22-2013, 06:50 PM
Maybe we could get Gear to use his lube wear tester on some powder to get a real answer, instead of guessing. Gear?
I cleaned the 40 Monday after ~ 400 rnds. There was a good visible deposit neat the chamber but it came out with a brush very easily. Not lead.

Linstrum
12-25-2013, 10:28 AM
Maximumbob54 and others, wear due to motion is a CUBE of the velocity function. That is, Wear = Velocity^3. What that means is if you double the velocity then the wear is eight times. 2 cubed is 2 * 2 * 2 = 8. Therefore, if the velocity of the bullet going through your sizer is 1/10 feet per second and the velocity through your barrel is 1,400 feet per second at the muzzle, then the wear through your sizer is going to be unmeasurable what it is at the gun muzzle. Mathematically, 1,400 feet per second ÷ 1/10 feet per second = 14,000 times faster, which means the gun muzzle velocity is 14,000 times the velocity through the sizer die. But the wear factor itself is actually 14,000^3 = 14,000 * 14,000 * 14,000 or 2,744,000,000,000 or an incredible number of times greater wear factor. However, if your wear at 1/10 feet per second is extremely close to zero in the sizing die, then 2,744,000,000,000 multiplied times Almost Zero is a very, very tiny number, so even though the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE VELOCITIES through your sizer and your gun barrel have a wear factor difference of 2.744 TRILLION times, the actual wear that takes place is still very small. Because of the huge wear factor values involved in high velocities, GOOD PROJECTILE LUBRICATION TO KEEP WEAR FACTORS CLOSE TO ZERO IS A MUST! Race car drivers know all about how fast their tires wear out at 200 mph compared to 50 mph, 200 ÷ 50 = 4, 4^3 = 64, so they get about one sixty-fourth the miles on their tires at 200 mph than at 50 mph IF the temperature of the tires is the same as at 50 mph, which it isn't. When the temperature goes up, then the additional wear DOUBLES for every 10 degrees Celsius (18 degrees F) increase in temperature!

rl 1,203

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
12-25-2013, 02:11 PM
Very interesting.

Love Life
12-25-2013, 02:19 PM
My brain hurts.

Moonman
12-25-2013, 02:39 PM
Too much LOCO WEED out that way.

IllinoisCoyoteHunter
12-26-2013, 12:29 AM
I have nothing against PC, as I have never done it, and we have no definitive evidence of its abrasiveness. BUT, I think I will stick with my Star and conventional lube.

gds
12-27-2013, 07:33 AM
I'm just not sure that the powder coating is the culprit. I mean lets be honest. Shooters and especially us casters tend to be cheap. I would venture to say that the harbor freight flat black is probably the most used powder for our purposes. i would think that by now we would have had many more reports like the OPs. Some guys are pushing a lot higher pressures in there guns and shooting a lot higher volume then even the OP. I am watching my guns and so far I have not seen any appreciable wear. granted my high round count powder coated shooter is an AAC model 7 300 blk, with 99% subsonics thru it.

MacFan
12-27-2013, 09:27 AM
The barrel slugged at .356 and the plated bullets mic'd at .355. "Several thousand" plated were shot without checking the barrel if I read your post correctly. I'm thinking (guessing) that the plated bullets were the original cause of the problem. The erosion from hot gasses and debris simply continued with the powder coated bullets. Kind of like plasma cutting or a water jet, once you get a hole or path started metal disappears real fast.
All just speculation on my part, I hope you get the problem figured out.

Afterthought- Are we assuming that all the dirt and garbage left behind in a barrel when shooting conventional lubes and jacketed isn't abrasive at all?

sparky45
12-27-2013, 09:47 AM
I have nothing against PC, as I have never done it, and we have no definitive evidence of its abrasiveness. BUT, I think I will stick with my Star and conventional lube.

I still use my Star with every boolit I cast, only I use it exclusively as a sizer.

Beagle333
12-27-2013, 10:12 AM
This seems to be an isolated case. Time will tell, but I agree with "gds" above, there are a lot of us shooting powder and only one report of wear.

Mbedwell1971
12-28-2013, 07:44 PM
I agree. I started PCing with gloss red HF but have decided to do some matte black. I am going to do some comparisons with the two. I am curious if the velocities will be different. I will chronograph some tomorrow.

castalott
12-29-2013, 05:04 PM
Ok..Some questions... Are these abrasives in the paint we use also? Has anyone anywhere using paint noted this wear? I remember reading of tests by the U S Army years ago that said it took 10,000 rounds of 30-06 to make a service rifle unserviceable because of wear affecting accuracy. ( They used a 6 MOA figure for disqualification.)

These 9mm boolits would have to be very abrasive to do this damage in the pictures.

Surely this abrasive would at least scratch the sizer die enough to be apparant in close inspection. Right now I have more questions than answers.

dverna
12-29-2013, 08:17 PM
Castalott,

There have not been enough rounds fired in rifles to answer your question. In fact, there are only one or two people who have achieved 2 MOA with PC'ed bullets at rifle velocities. So the jury is still out on this.

Most PC'ers are doing pistol bullets. The few who have done rifle bullets report no leading but poor accuracy and it has got too cold for many to do more experimenting. So the questions remain.

It will be interesting to see how Pc'ed bullets perform accuracy wise in a 5.56 AR with velocities in the 3000 fps area. One member here got over 3000 fps but he has not posted any further follow up that I am aware of. But like others, his accuracy was not very good but he did not get leading.

Don Verna

Mbedwell1971
12-30-2013, 12:55 AM
So I shot both the gloss red and matte black 9mm today. They were identical loads. The matte black was consistently 25fps slower than the gloss red. I'm not sure if that tells us anything significant about the abrasive characteristics of the matte black. Opinions?

Kristofer_G
12-30-2013, 01:04 AM
Hello all, I have encountered a problem that I have not heard of anyone else experiencing. I have been shooting PC'd bullets for about 2.5 months, and have had great results with them in several competitions so far. I am shooting them from a G19 with a lone wolf barrel. The problem I have encountered is that the rifling just after my chamber seems to be eroding. At first I thought this was just a large amount of freebore that I hadn't noticed yet in any of my previous cleaning sessions, but after several other shooting and cleaning sessions, it appears that the rifling has eroded more. I have a few pictures of what Im talking about. I have compared my barrel to several other glock barrels, and mine really does appear to have eroded a lot. On my last range session, last week, I noticed that a few rounds had started keyholing, this is something that I have not had happen to me yet with my loads in any of my 9mm pistols. I haven't noticed any rifling erosion in any of my other 9mm's, but admittedly I shoot my Glock A LOT more. I am not ready to say that the PC'd bullets have caused this or not, but I wanted to know if anyone else had experienced anything similar to this in any pistol EVER. Any help with this would be appreciated.

90193 This is a picture from the chamber looking out to the Muzzle. You can see that after the end of the chamber that the case mouth indexes on, there is a very LARGE amount of freebore before the bullet starts to make contact with the rifling.

90194 This is a picture from the Muzzle looking in toward the chamber. The erosion can be seen here too.

Have you contacted Lone Wolf about your barrel?

popper
12-30-2013, 11:53 AM
The few who have done rifle bullets report no leading but poor accuracy Not exactly true. Seems more like a reloader/shooter limit. No, it won't let you shoot pure @ 3000 fps & MOA.

Smoke4320
12-30-2013, 12:54 PM
can't say I have shot thousands of rds of PCed rifle bullets .. can say I have gotten SUB MOA on
300 Blkout, 6.5 x 55, 308, 458 socom and 45-70 .. all at least 75% of full power jacketed loads
my method was to find a good accurate load for hunting season this year in each rifle .. which I did.. and after this season start laddering those loads up to see how hi I can get before accuracy degrades one rifle at a time..
harvested one deer each with 458 socom and 300 blkout .. both were clean thru both sides at 65-67 yds
458 socom was RCBS 300 98/2 at 1583 FPS and 300 Blkout Mil hec 159FN at 1500 FPS 10" barrel and suppressor
so far I am extremely pleased with the results see no wear or leading with any of my loads

Mbedwell1971
12-30-2013, 03:06 PM
What mold did you use for your .308? That is my next casting project. I am interested in what has worked for you.

popper
12-30-2013, 03:18 PM
31-165B - works well in my AR & 30/30. Small FP, not a sharp point, not very long.

Smoke4320
12-30-2013, 03:35 PM
Mbedwell1971
my most accurate so far has been the Mil Hec 159 in both FN and HP .. tried RCBS 165 did well.. lees 230 is awesome in sub sonic loads pc'ed and sized to 311.. I size all my 308's to 311 and they have worked great in all my 308 dia rifles..
tried the Lee 312-155 and have not been successful yet in the blkout or 308
\
PS I do NOT use gas checks .. I powdercoat nose down so I get coated based.. So far that has worked up to loads running almost 2000 FPS .. no leading in a 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser

Boarderguy83
01-04-2014, 07:18 PM
Kristofer G, no I have not contacted lone wolf as of yet, because their website states that any reloads shot through their barrels will void the warranty. I dont think I could explain the problem to them in any way that wouldn't make it seem as if it were my fault in their eyes.

John

nighthunter
01-05-2014, 12:38 AM
I've sized about 5000 powder coated bullets thru my .309 sizing die and I found yesterday that my bullets are now being sized at .310. I know I'm going to size some uncoated bullets with the die and see how they end up measuring. I was thinking that maybe the PC might swell a little after being compressed in the die. I'll let ya'll know what I figure out.

Nighthunter

MacFan
01-05-2014, 05:11 PM
I've sized about 5000 powder coated bullets thru my .309 sizing die and I found yesterday that my bullets are now being sized at .310. I know I'm going to size some uncoated bullets with the die and see how they end up measuring. I was thinking that maybe the PC might swell a little after being compressed in the die. I'll let ya'll know what I figure out.

Nighthunter

With polyester PC I get 1/2 thou to a thou larger than my sizing die. My 7.62 die is .3135 and I get .314 to .3145 over the PC. I suspect it's from the PC displacing out of the way when it goes through the die and then springing back a bit. The heavier the coat the larger the final size.
With 45acp I see about the same results.
Polyester PC is obviously pretty flexible so I don't worry about it.

Maximumbob54
01-05-2014, 09:41 PM
Kristofer G, no I have not contacted lone wolf as of yet, because their website states that any reloads shot through their barrels will void the warranty. I dont think I could explain the problem to them in any way that wouldn't make it seem as if it were my fault in their eyes.

John

You could just ask if there have been any reports of problems with whatever lot and batch number your barrel came from.

Beetmagnet
01-05-2014, 09:54 PM
So I shot both the gloss red and matte black 9mm today. They were identical loads. The matte black was consistently 25fps slower than the gloss red. I'm not sure if that tells us anything significant about the abrasive characteristics of the matte black. Opinions?

I tested Identical 9mm 133gr loads using Black HF, White HF and plain COWW tumble lubed. The white 10 shot average was 995fps, the black HF was 999fps, and the TL was 1013fps. I haven't noticed any difference between the black, white, and red HF powders, but all are slower than lubed bullets.

Maximumbob54
01-06-2014, 09:12 AM
I'm too big a chicken to use the matte black now. But now that I'm ES coating with the gloss red you will have to club me over the head to change to anything else.

fcvan
01-06-2014, 12:49 PM
I've been following the 'flat black = increased wear" issue closely as HF flat black is all I use. I have not noticed any appreciable wear on my weapons. I am considering making a slight adjustment to my powder just to check the outcome. We all know that flat black is not as smooth as red yellow or white. Heck, one guy has used clear and they look slick. I'm thinking of mixing some white with the flat black, in increments, to see how much it takes to make the finish on the boolit slightly smoother.

I'm going to try 90/10 black/white, 80/20, 70/30, etc. I am hoping that 80/20 will be the trick as mixing 4lbs of black with 1lb of white will be easy and repeatable. I am also hoping for a dark charcoal grey color because I really like the dark boolit. Call me odd, but lead is already grey ish and I'd like my boolits to be noticeably different. I really like black boolits in shiny brass! Oh ya, I'm a cheap bugger and want to stick with HF powder.

oldpapps
01-06-2014, 05:10 PM
If a 'no knowledge' beginner may offer a thought....'flat black = increased wear" issue.

So far I have only bought some 'flat black' powder from PBTP and this was before seeing or reading anything about the issue. I have only played with the powder a little, the cold keeps me inside and my daughter complains about every little smell.

I see controversy about rapid barrel wear with certain powders.
Yet, I haven't seen, granted I haven't looked, anything about the use of 'aluminum can - gas checks'. There is very little aluminum oxide conning in contact with the barrel but how much abrasives are present in what I feel as a smooth powder coating?

I am concerned about the base content of the powders I will purchase from now on. I will shy away from any that could be gritty, but I don't see this as a game changer and find the potentials for the process far over shadow a few draw backs.

I wonder if the shooters in the time when 'jackets' were being introduced had the same worry? Yes, they must have. The steel in that old Trapdoor was very soft....

Thank you for your time. Sorry I didn't have any incite or test results to contribute.

Load with care,

OSOK

OuchHot!
01-06-2014, 05:13 PM
I have not done a search, but I would be surprised if there was not some source of powder specifically engineered for friction control. So far, it looks like all of the boolit work has been with appearance grade powders.

Cane_man
01-06-2014, 06:10 PM
there are powders that have teflon in them, but i would not want it to be construed as a type of 'armour piercing' bullet

rsoper
01-06-2014, 07:04 PM
Plus, the gas is hottest, most compressed near the chamber. As gases expand they cool. So the further the gas expands down the barrel the cooler it gets.

the bullet is moving slowest and so dwells longest there with a 30,000psi 5000 degree f blow torch at mach 50?(don't forget bernoulli)

xacex
01-06-2014, 08:04 PM
I don't get the connection to fluid dynamic principles such as Bernoulli's with this problem. Gas cutting from poor fit would erode the throat, and not the rest of the barrel due to cooling and the pressure curve. I do not see any fluids involved.

rsoper
01-06-2014, 08:43 PM
I don't get the connection to fluid dynamic principles such as Bernoulli's with this problem. Gas cutting from poor fit would erode the throat, and not the rest of the barrel due to cooling and the pressure curve. I do not see any fluids involved.

gases are fluids.

gds
01-06-2014, 08:50 PM
As i have stated earlier. We can argue chemical process till the cows come home. A lot of people have been using the flat black. putting a lot of rounds down range in both pistol and rifle. If the flat black powder coating is the culprit, then Why have we not seen more complaints like this. I have used the flat in my 300 blk model 7, as well as my 9.5inch AR, and honestly cannot tell you how many rounds I have fired thru them. my accuracy has not suffered. I shot a box full of the lee 230 that were only measuring .309 after 2 coats. yet no rifling wear. they shot like garbage. but putting in the NOE 247 again with the flat black powder coating gave me 5 shot subsonic 50 yd groups of less then an inch.

Have also used them in 9mm and 45 acp, .308, .45 colt, and a few others that are slipping my mind right now.

And I have no doubt that there are guys not only on here but on other gunboards doing the powder coat process, using the flat black, shooting them faster and shooting a lot more of them then i have, or even the OP and we have but one report, seeming to put the blame on the flat black.

I am sorry but I am skeptical. I don't think the OP is lying about what he has, but I just have a hard time believing that the flat black is the culprit.

But who knows maybe I am totally wrong and there are thousands of ruined guns out there that nobody wants to admit to.

xacex
01-07-2014, 01:14 AM
gases are fluids.

I have to fix that exhaust leak in the truck. I'm getting more stupid day after day. Thanks for the reminder.

Ordered a new header to replace the cracked one.

geargnasher
01-08-2014, 12:11 AM
Re: Anodized aluminum hardness from page one, anodized coatings will blunt the points on HSS drill bits if that is an indicator of hardness.

Re: Adding hBN to clear PC, or any PC....my interest is VERY piqued, please continue and report...

Re: Linstrum, I learned more from your two posts than I have in the last week of my life, thank you Sir.

Re: Mechanics of colloidal graphite as an extreme-pressure lubricant....I recall reading that moisture is required for the planar slippage to occur properly. NASA research scientists discovered that colloidal graphite functions as an abrasive to steel and titanium in simulated outer-space conditions and pinpointed absence of moisture to be the cause.

Re: Lack of abrasive wear in barrels from aluminum gas checks....there is a high film strength lubricant associated with shooting these, together with lubricant fouling/residue coating of the barrel that also holds residual carbon and graphite from the propellant. Prediction is somewhere on the order of 100 billion rounds through the barrel before barrel wear would be expected to show up in the fourth decimal place.

Re: Wear tester Popper mentioned... if anyone wants a lab analysis from the Southwest Redneck Materials Certification & Research Center, a not-for-profit organization dedicated to the preservation and enjoyment of firearms and currently headquartered in my garage, please pm for address to send samples. Minimum sample quantity for accurate standard deviation is 137. .45 and .38 caliber preferred.

Gear

Boarderguy83
01-09-2014, 04:43 PM
Thank you everyone for all of the input into this thread. I have read a lot of responses and really do appreciate the flood of information that has come in. In all honesty the chemical compisition talk that started was very much over my head and I found myself staring at the screen blankly for a min, as I dont really have a firm grasp of anything chemical related. Never the less, I do appreciate all the responses, and I am still working with the PC'd boolits. I have about 500 PC'd flat black rounds that Im still pushing down range, and am making the switch to the HF red to see what effect that may have.

All in all I probably received a defective barrel from lone wolf, but oh well, I can honestly say that I got my use out of it. I put just shy of 10,000 rds through it in various competitions and such. I am now interested in seeing if any noticeable wear will be found in my stock G19 barrel. Time will tell.

Thanks again for all the posts.

John

ebner glocken
01-09-2014, 05:10 PM
"Re: Linstrum, I learned more from your two posts than I have in the last week of my life, thank you Sir."

Post #91 needs to be framed. I work in an environment that wear factors are a very real thing. I showed that post to a couple of coworkers and said "have you ever heard this put so well?". It doesn't just apply to guns. Well done sir!

Ebner

danr
01-12-2014, 06:54 PM
oddly, i have had this very same wear happen to one of my 45's from shooting brass case jacketed projectiles. i have a couple of other pistols that had about the same amount of use and have not seen the same wear on my other firearms. so i account for it just being a poorly made barrel. my 45 barrel had warn 2 of the rifling grooves to near smooth surface. now mind you i also have only fired brass jacketed home swaged projectiles from my firearms since i purchased them, and i have easily put 10k or more rounds through each of them.

anyways.. thought this info could help you all.

thanks,
dan

gimling
01-12-2014, 08:17 PM
I doubt it is the powder coat. I have shot hundreds of PC rounds through my Taurus, powdercoat does not make the bullet any harder, its more of a protective lubrication.

On a side note I noticed that the flat colors don't size like butter like the gloss and I have to clean the barrel more often than when I use a glossy powder coat.