Lube for cap & ball revolvers?

[ShooterAZ]

I have a Ruger Old Army and have been using Bore Butter & a felt wad. While the bore butter works OK, it gets too soft (liquid) for my liking in the warmer months and when the gun warms up. I did a search here, but did not come up with anything definitive. Can someone recommend a home-made lube that can be adjusted for temperature? I remember a post about beeswax and olive oil, but could not find it again...maybe wrong forum. Thanks for any advise...Shooter.

[John Allen]

Olive oil and beeswax. I use it all the time. If you want it a little harder you can add a touch of parrafin but it is not needed. I mix it up and leave it in the pot to cool. Once it is cool if it is thick enough I just reheat and dump into a mason jar if it is too thick just add more olive oil. To thin more beeswax. On a side note I also throw in a couple of the berry smelling candle flavors this way my gun smells pretty when I shoot it!

[carbine]

I just use the felt wads. The lube in a RB revolver is mainly to prevent chain fires.

[Beagle333]

Olive oil and beeswax 50/50,... to stiffen it up - add crayons as needed for the weather conditions.

[John Allen]

If you want to make wads here is where you get the material http://www.durofelt.com/

[seaboltm]

Current thinking is chain fires are caused by loose fitting caps or improper size balls. That being said, I don't know that lube serves a purpose at all in a CB revolver. That being said I usually put a small dab of SPG lube under the ball and over the powder, no felt. My lead balls shave off as they go into the cylinder, and I pinch the caps before placing them on the nipples.

[ShooterAZ]

I just use the felt wads. The lube in a RB revolver is mainly to prevent chain fires.

I tried just using the felt wads no lube, and got a lot of fouling with just a few cylinder loads. The fowling was much less using the bore butter. Maybe I just need to brush it out more often? It appears that the lube really reduces the amount of fowling

[Rick R]

I believe that next summer I'll try beeswax/olive oil/citronella candle wax blend as lube. Might help keep the mosquitoes at bay while I'm shooting. ;)

I've been using a cookie made of beeswax, olive oil, and bore butter in between the ball and felt wad over the powder of my Pietta .44 and it seems to reduce fouling or just make it soft enough to not be a problem. A dab of Bore Butter on top of the ball just makes it more better if you're shooting a lot of rounds.

I also went to Track of the Wolf and bought the nipples that are actually sized for #11 caps. They're now tight enough that I've never had one fall off and I'm using .454" balls which cut a good ring around chamber so I believe I'm pretty chain fire proof.

[Omnivore]

It's not that you have less fouling when you use lube, it's that the fouling is softer. Lube behind the ball will do more good that lube in front of the ball. If it's in front of the ball it all gets pushed out in front of the ball, leaving nothing behind in the bore to keep fouling soft, but it will help lube the cylinder arbor. Also most of the lube you put in the chamber mouths over the ball gets blown out from the other chambers with the first shot.

Lube under the ball can reduce the powder's effectiveness, resulting in lower power and probably more inconsistencies. Adding the right amount of lube between the ball and a felt wad may help reduce the powder contamination. BP cartridge loaders often use a “lube cookie”, which is a disk of lube between thin cards. In theory it puts lube behind the bullet where it does the most good, and protects the powder from the lube at the same time. I've tried a Circle-Fly shot card over the powder, with lube between that and the ball, and it does seem to help but I would need to do more experimentation to be sure.

I have tried a "fiber wad" saturated in Gatofeo #1 (or is it Gatofeo #2? I forget) lube between the powder and the bullet, and that resulted in VERY reduced power shots. It went "Whoomph" instead of "Crack!" and there was less recoil, so there is a balance to be found between too much lube under the ball and just enough. Or something.

One who's done a lot of experimentation on this, and who's name escapes me, swears that a regular lubed felt wad with just a little extra lube added between the felt and the ball, is "just right" for keeping the fouling soft all around, keeping the powder performing at its best, allowing more shots before anything needs to be cleaned, and allowing a very easy wipe-through of the bore to get it slick as a whistle after a lot of shooting. I have yet to find this balance.

Look at what the BP cartridge loaders are doing, including BPCR, and there I think you will find much wisdom that can be applied to percussion pistols. When it comes to black powder fouling mitigation, or "fouling management", there’s no difference between a percussion gun and a cartridge gun— the physical laws of nature are constant.

[ShooterAZ]

Thanks for the info guys, I will try using a dab of lube on top of the wad, before I seat the RB. I use #10 caps, and they are very tight fitting.

[Outpost75]

Drydene Pyroplex (rhymes with Pyrodex) EP grease from.your NAPA store.

[Fly]

This is what I have used for lube pills & it works great.The only thing I use different is I use bees wax
instead of the toilet ring wax.

What I did was start out with:
Parafin comes in a brick divided to to 4 like a stick a butter, I used a stick.
Then 1/4 of a Bolwax Toilet Seal Ring(Beeswax)substitute or beeswax or use with the parafin.
Then 8-10 Tablespoons of Olive Oil/soy oil
The Olive oil is the Lube the Waxes just carry it and keep the pill as
you want it.(consistency/hard or soft...climate time of year)
And that made allot about 600 pills...about 1/8" thick for the most part.
Place the lube mixture in a small saucepan, place the small saucepan in a larger pan with water
boilin' the water and sorta poach the lube mix to a liquid.
level stiff heated pizza pan(or 7-9" heavy pie pan)is the best thing to pour your mix into...
so mix cools evenly(flat) .Place in fridge when it's set stiff(optional)
And worked good for me...you need to try your best guess and add/subtract as you like them
for your use.


Punch out to the caliber of your choice, with a tube. Place lube pill over powder with ball
on top. You'll shoot all day without binding. Keeps cylinder lubed fouling soft and barrel
relatively clean.

[GunSlingerNM]

I make/use a 50-50 mix of beeswax and lard. When weather turn cooler I thin out with Vegetable or Olive Oil. Works fine for me.

[gandydancer]

toilet seal made with bees wax has not been manufactured in over 25/30 years or more. I use salt free Crisco and a Popsicle stick.

[Dryball]

As long as you have the bore butter why don't you just add a little bees wax or some carnuba flakes it and melt. Have you tried the T-17 (or maybe T-7). Bout the same thing as B.B. but a little firmer

[bigted]

nuttin to it !!! it dont seem to matter what i use on the boolits or ball ... nor under it ... what i do use is so simple that most folks just smirk n walk away.

in ALL my blackpowder revolvers i do the same thing ... cartridge revolvers and cap n ball. this works even if it seems like it dont ...

SMEAR THE END OF THE CYLINDER HOLES FULL OF CRISCO! even tho it seems like it runs out and melts with the first shot ... fill the end with salt free crisco. i can shoot my C&B revolvers almost as many times as i feel like shooting with this menu of loading. never had a cross fire with this "messy way" of shooting ... BUT ... NEVER had any easier way of keeping shooting accurately AND THE CLEANUP IS ALWAYS EASY AND SIMPLE.

try it ... you will like it !!! ... easy ... cheap ... works !!! ... :holysheep

[dikman]

Hmm, let's see - Summer in Alaska = smearable Crisco, Summer in Australia = Crisco running like water. No offense, but I think I'll pass on this one, if you don't mind.

[winelover]

Ox-yoke makes a "lube cookie" for revolvers. Ox-Yoke Wonder Seals, IIRC. Tried some this year. Little firmer than Bore Butter and a whole lot less messy. Has the same odor.

Winelover

[Fly]

Lots of choces!Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Fly[smilie=f:

[John Allen]

I am going to try something new in the next couple of weeks. I am going to do the cookie cutter method for mine and us backers made from playing cards. This should keep the lube from migrating to the powder and also make it super easy to load. I am also going to try using a playing card on both sides and see how this works out. This way you could just pour the powder in drop the card/lube combo in and add the ball.

[Wayne Smith]

Since I use Emmert's lube with a touch of soap added for my BP and pistol lube I just melted some and dipped the window felt in it. Let that cool and punch out wads that go under the ball. No hang fires and no chain fires and it cleans nicely.

[Fly]

I have never had a problem oil in cookie migrating to the powder.The wax keeps that from happening.

Fly

[bigted]

Hmm, let's see - Summer in Alaska = smearable Crisco, Summer in Australia = Crisco running like water. No offense, but I think I'll pass on this one, if you don't mind.

LOL ... suit yourself pardner. i know what works for me and has for a long time before i came to Alaska... Grants Pass Oregon gets pretty warm in summer ...[have seen 112 degrees when a kid there]... and it worked there as well. each to his own tho. good luck on your ozzyland brew and good shooting to you.

and i dont mind in the least ... just tryin to pass on what works for me ... as for anything else on here that you will read ... you are welcome to take it or leave it. i take no offense to your post ... just wonder why it were so important to post it is all ... either use it or dont ... i have no need to defend my methods that work for me and till i see that someone else has a better mousetrap so to speak i will stay with what works for me ... no skin off either of us.:groner:

[Good Cheer]

LOOB is what I use. That's Lanolin, Olive Oil and Beeswax.

I made enough up a while back that I've been using it for everything I can, for some jobs sometimes adding a little peanut oil, DAX pomade, a crayola, a little lithium lube or whatever seems like it might work. By the way, as was previously touched upon, in cool weather the crisco option is hard to beat.

[h8dirt]

I use vegetable shortening over the seated lead ball in my 1858 Remington clones. My go-to target load is 18 grains of FFFg (by volume) then an equal amount of Cream of Wheat. This load will seat the ball (I use 0.457" pure lead) about 1/16' below the cylinder mouth. Then I use a small paddle to smear a cover coat of the "crisco" over the ball. The lube does keep the bore fouling soft and it does prevent cross-chamber firing. I have shot this all day in competition and at the end of the day had no leading or hard fouling in the bore (which is hand lapped to a very fine finish) -- and won matches to boot. It works for this application. If I was carrying the pistol in a holster all day I would probably figure out something different to prevent the mess that shortening can make.

[dikman]

Howdy, bigted pardner, I'm glad you didn't take offense as none was intended, but I can see how the wording of my post wasn't perhaps as clear as it should have been :oops:. As for bothering to post, sometimes the urge to write something inconsequential gets the better of me.

I wouldn't dream of questioning your experience in this field. I'm always willing to learn from those with more knowledge, and experience, whatever the subject. I've only been doing this stuff for a year, and in that time I've learned a helluva lot about BP - and I've also realised how little I actually know! I've also learnt that what works for one person won't necessarily work for another, particularly when it comes to loobs and patching. As for Crisco, I'm aware that it's widely used over there, but it (or its equivalents) isn't popular down here. My hard wax pills are already starting to soften occasionally, and Summer hasn't even started here yet! (I hate hot weather, btw).

Keep your powder dry, pardner, and happy trails.

[JSAND]

"I believe that next summer I'll try beeswax/olive oil/citronella candle wax blend as lube. Might help keep the mosquitoes at bay while I'm shooting." Rick R
I haven't thought about that, that would be nice if it works. Certainly can't hurt to give it a try. Thanks.

[celem]

You may find the thread below of interest:

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,6478.msg112531.html#msg112531

Or

http://tinyurl.com/qdcamcl

[Petrol & Powder]

I've always been skeptical about the whole chain-fire thing. After seating a soft lead ball into the cylinder and shaving off a ring of lead in the process, I don't get how a spark could get past that ball. The possibility of a chain fire occurring from the cap end of the cylinder seems more likely. To that end, the lube is really only there to keep the fouling manageable. I've shot with lube on top of the ball and with lubed wads seated under the ball and with no lube at all. I far prefer the wads under the ball to manage fouling. Lube on top of the ball is slightly better than no lube at all, but only slightly and it makes a huge mess.

[Firebricker]

I've only have shot two percussion revolvers a .36 and a .44 The .36 was someone else's and I believed he used a felt wad then a dab of crisco after. When I got mine (1851 .44 rep) the guy who sold it showed to always make sure you used a slightly oversized ball and to watch for the lead ring it cut so you new it was sealed. I got mine as a teenager then saved and bought a Lee single cavity .451 mould. Man a pound of FFFg and we would shoot that thing all day long on weekends. I have not fired it in at least twenty years this thread made e realise it is time to change that. They are fun little revolvers well maybe not little lol. FB

[dikman]

Fun indeed! A big boom, lots of smoke and the smell of gunpowder in the air. What more could you ask for?:guntootsmiley:

[Multigunner]

I've always been skeptical about the whole chain-fire thing. After seating a soft lead ball into the cylinder and shaving off a ring of lead in the process, I don't get how a spark could get past that ball.
I had a chain fire with my Navy arms 1851 replica when I tried it without lube over the bullets. The early production Navy Arms .36 revolvers had slightly over sized chamber mouths with a bit of taper, the .375 balls would fit just well enough to stay in place only if a light charge was used and the bullet seated further back from the opening.
Since no .380 balls were available I later took to putting the balls on a steel plate giving each ball a light whack with a mallet to bump them up enough that a thin ring of lead would shear when seating the balls.
Never tried them dry after that early attempt with the undersized balls.

The gas escaping from the gap can find the tiniest irregularity in the fit between ball and chamber wall. Since soft lead balls get bumped around a bit flat spots can form that would leave a tiny gap when seated.


The possibility of a chain fire occurring from the cap end of the cylinder seems more likely.
That happened with some early revolver and pepperbox designs, the Colt has a lot of steel between the nipples for that very reason. A very loose fitting cap, like a no. 11 cap pinched to fit a no.10 nipple can allow a flash over but its still not likely with the Colt style cylinders.

A very weak main spring coupled with a very large flash hole in the nipples can sometimes cause the hammer to be blown back enough to rotate the cylinder and fire two or more shots like a full auto.
I've had that happen twice, once with my .36 before I made a stronger spring for it, and once with a Colt Walker replica belonging to a friend.
In both cases the heaviest charge the chamber would hold and tight fitting bullets that required extra pressure to seat while compressing the charge were used. I replaced the nipples on both these pistols with Uncle Mike's stainless nipples and the problem went away.
Some early production Italian replica pistols were made using badly worn originals as a guide, and apparently the originals had badly worn nipples with grossly over size flash holes.

[ShooterAZ]

Fun indeed! A big boom, lots of smoke and the smell of gunpowder in the air. What more could you ask for?:guntootsmiley: Yes, great fun. Now if I could only find some more #10 caps. I have only a few hundred left, and not sure when I can get more.

[Baja_Traveler]

Several years ago I bought one of These Big Lube Molds (http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982) for my ROA and haven't looked back. I pan lube them using my BP lube (1 pound Beeswax, 1/2 pound Anhydrous Lanolin & 1/2 pound Canola Oil by weight). No wads, no grease - nothing else.

[Firebricker]

I can not say that I have ever seen #10 caps. Are they smaller ? You might be able to change to a nipple for #11s. To be honest though I do not know if 11s are available I have not looked in a long while. I wound up with over 1k of them and since I was only using them in my old Knight muzzle loader have not used many. FB

[ShooterAZ]

Yes, the current nipples I have are sized for #10 caps. I could get new nipples for #11's no problem, but no one has #11 caps either as far as I can tell. The #10 caps work just fine, and fit well.

[Multigunner]

Been a long time since I bought any caps but the last time I did the store had no.10 caps so I bought all they had. I still have a few tins of these left.
I have a spare cylinder for my .38 that still has the No.10 nipples.
I found that you can force a No.10 over a No.11 nipple, but its not easy. One advantage is the No.10 caps don't blow off and get hung up under the hammer.

If you can get No.10 caps these are best for use with Black Powder, but you need a No.11 to ignite Pyrodex.

I had a small twist barrel derringer that took No.9 caps. Only found one tin of those. Luckily these had a hard yellow brass cup rather than a copper cup, so I could reload the spent caps with dots cut from paper caps using a belt hole puncher.
I'm fairly sure those caps were intended for use as Berdan caps. They were Alcan IIRC.
The small plastic caps used with toy revolvers also worked on that derringer.

[winelover]

Been a long time since I bought any caps but the last time I did the store had no.10 caps so I bought all they had. I still have a few tins of these left.
I have a spare cylinder for my .38 that still has the No.10 nipples.
I found that you can force a No.10 over a No.11 nipple, but its not easy. One advantage is the No.10 caps don't blow off and get hung up under the hammer.

If you can get No.10 caps these are best for use with Black Powder, but you need a No.11 to ignite Pyrodex.

I had a small twist barrel derringer that took No.9 caps. Only found one tin of those. Luckily these had a hard yellow brass cup rather than a copper cup, so I could reload the spent caps with dots cut from paper caps using a belt hole puncher.
I'm fairly sure those caps were intended for use as Berdan caps. They were Alcan IIRC.
The small plastic caps used with toy revolvers also worked on that derringer.



I do not find this to be the case. I exclusively use Pyrodex, in my ROA, with #10 Remington caps. Never had ignition issues. Ruger does recommend #11's with the ROA. I found that they will occasionally split and tie up the action. Problem went away with the #10's!

This season's deer harvested with ROA. Load was 30 grains of Pyrodex "P". Wonder Wad, Lee 220 conical. Wonder Seal, set off with Remington #10 cap.

Bang, Flop, No tracking required!

90929


Winelover

[bob208]

the lube is not there to stop chain fires. it is there to lube the pistol. so the softer the lube the better and longer the pistol will shoot.

I tried it once no lube 2 cylinders. the gun was sticking dragging when cocked. the third cylinder was topped off with Crisco. the cylinder started to free up after shooting. the next cylinder it was working nice. but fire one cylinder with out lube and it would start to bind up again.

[GunSlingerNM]

Bob208, That has been my experience also. When I use a lube over ball the gun does not bind up and I can continue to reload and shoot my revolver for quite a while. It does get messy.
If I use a lubed wad under the ball same thing except it will bind just a little quicker No mess.
If no lube used at all after a couple of cylinders and the binding is pretty bad (pyrodex or holy black).
Chain fires are not an issue. I use balls that seal tightly and caps that fit properly.

[Jugband]

Current thinking is chain fires are caused by loose fitting caps or improper size balls. That being said, I don't know that lube serves a purpose at all in a CB revolver. That being said I usually put a small dab of SPG lube under the ball and over the powder, no felt. My lead balls shave off as they go into the cylinder, and I pinch the caps before placing them on the nipples.

Think about this... round nipples, round caps = pretty good seal against sparks.

Round nipples, oblong caps from being pinched = ???

If the caps are the right size, you shouldn't need to pinch them and if they are the wrong size, you've created an even larger gap between the cap wall and the nipple, though they are less likely to fall off, which is the absolute worst.

Caps, (at least Remingtons), are all the same diameter. What's different is the height of the caps (length of the walls). Nipples are tapered, and you want your cap to start making good contact very slightly before it bottoms out against the top (back?) of the nipple, becoming fully seated.

If it makes this contact too soon, you will think the cap is seated all the way when it's not quite, like having a primer not fully seated, only impossible to see.

And like a primer that's not fully seated, a hard enough strike may seat it the rest of the way and set it off. The hammer can hit it a lot harder than you'd dare to while loading, even with a wooden dowel to help (unless you love trouble).

Most likely, though the first strike will seat it, and the second strike will fire it (or it may never fire), depending on how well the first blow actually seated it. That's what happens when you use #10 caps on nipples that were designed for #11.

A #10 cap has longer walls than a #11, so it expects the skirt to start making good contact closer to the chamber.

If you put a #11 cap on a nipple with a taper designed for #10, the cap will bottom out at the top before the skirt has made a good seal with the tapered area of the nipple, and you'll have trouble keeping it on, in addition to a slightly higher chance of a chainfire.

Chainfires that happen despite properly-sized caps and balls are so seldom as to almost be an urban legend, but they do happen, due to defective chambers. If a chamber was bored oversize or out of round, you CAN have a risk of chainfires, despite using all the correct sized loading supplies.

THAT is when a lubed wad over the powder can do you more good than simply reducing fouling.

I think that Italian revolvers of more recent manufacture are a lot less likely to have chambers that are out of round, though. QA seems to have come a long, long way in the 21st Century all the way around with Pietta & Uberti both.

[44man]

BPCR lube over the ball. It takes heat and does not blow all out.
You need a softening of fouling in the bore to shoot out with each shot. Use a stiffer lube.
Chain fires are almost 100% from the rear. How can a spark get past a tight seated ball?

[dondiego]

Chain fires have been proven to be 100% from the front due to dragging of a powder trail in with the ball creating a fuse of sorts. I have fired many times with no cap on an adjacent loaded cylinder and no chain fire.

[swathdiver]

Dondiego, there are fellas who have video taped their guns going off from the rear, proving your 100% statement false.

Reality is, a chain fire can happen from the front or the rear.

As for me and my house, all chambers on all of our cap and ball revolvers are round, there's no rust holes between the chambers, and we use balls or boolits that are larger than the chamber diameter. All of those same guns have properly fitted cones in good condition and use caps that fit firmly. We've never had a chain fire; indeed it's rather impossible with those conditions.

[Omnivore]

there are fellas who have video taped their guns going off from the rear

I believe there are videos (how about showing them to us?). They would of course show fire coming out both ends of the chamber. That doesn't conclusively prove the source and location of ignition, nor do I believe it possibly could unless one were equipped with state-of-the-art, extremely expensive, high resolution, extremely high speed camera equipment, and even then it would be questionable.

The best report on this phenomenon I've seen yet are the writings of John L. Fuhring, who claims to be able to create a chain fire at will, but was unable to get a chain fire by simply leaving a nipple un-capped. I've fired many times with adjacent, charged chamber left un-capped, and never had one, but Fhuring says he's tried and tried and tried, and couldn't make it happen.

[Maven]

dondiego, swathdiver is correct: Most chain fires start at the rear of the cylinder and are attributable to a poor cap to nipple fit. The Bevel Brothers demonstrated this in an article in Muzzle Blasts several years ago. However, a poorly fitted, i.e., undersized RB (no shaved lead ring) + very sloppy powder management could feasibly result in chain firing as well.

[Tar Heel]

Everything above is absolutely wrong. :-) Use a 2:1 Lamb Tallow to Beeswax mixture with pure felt. That is the perfect mixture and absolutely guaranteed to improve accuracy, reliability, smooth operation, reduce fouling, and much more - or DOUBLE your money back. I get the tallow from Dixie Gun Works, the wax from RandyRat on here, and felt from Durofelt.

Using Crisco gums up the works.

https://youtu.be/YgNVPC2wmWI

182158

[Tar Heel]

Chain fires have been proven to be 100% from the front due to dragging of a powder trail in with the ball creating a fuse of sorts. I have fired many times with no cap on an adjacent loaded cylinder and no chain fire.

Who proved this? When was this testing done? Who documented this proof?

Watch this video: https://youtu.be/B4MfmTk_-wE

You may rethink your position.

[rfd]

Who proved this? When was this testing done? Who documented this proof?

Watch this video: https://youtu.be/B4MfmTk_-wE

You may rethink your position.

something seriously wrong with that gun.

[Tar Heel]

something seriously wrong with that gun.

Probably not....I have shot a lot of video on C&B revolvers and when you grab some frames, the sparks are flying. After seeing some of my clips, I vowed to NEVER shoot a C&B without eye protection on - ever again.

182159

[Omnivore]

Using Crisco gums up the works.

Using too little, of whatever lube, gums up the works. If you get fouling accumulation, use more lube until it stops. It's that simple. But lube in front of the ball does almost nothing, so use more lube, behind the ball where it can mix with the fouling.


Watch this video: https://youtu.be/B4MfmTk_-wE


You may rethink your position.


i saw that video when I first came out, and no, I doesn't change my position. It offers a positive reinforcement of someone else's intuitive assessment, which is most likely wrong. Science is another matter altogether, and John Fuhring has done the science;
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html
you can believe him, or do your own proof. Anecdotes, and guesses based on seeing sparks, do not make science.

Anyway, for the cap sparks to ignite the main charge through a nipple flash hole in an adjacent chamber, they'd have to switch direction; turn the corner, get past the larger bore at the back of the nipple, past the shoulder down inside, get through the long-ish pin hole, contact the powder and still carry enough heat to ignite it. Try it. Make sure your chamber mouths are free of burrs or distortions, and then load up and leave all but one nipple capped at a time. Follow Fuhring's practices of "clean loading" to ensure that you don't get a chain fire from the front. Repeat until you get a chain fire. My guess is you'll be shooting a long, long time before you give up.

If you want anecdotes, and you consider anecdotes and assertions to be scientific proof, then here's one for you; last week while hunting I took one shot. Fifty grains of Olde Eynsford 3F, a lube cookie, and a 200 grain bullet, using a Remington #10 cap. Walker revolver. The adjacent chamber was charged with powder, lube and bullet, but not capped, in deference to my state regs regarding multi-shot weapons during muzzleloader season. BANG! The bare naked nipple next to all that fire and all those sparks, confined between the back of the cylinder and the recoil shield, did not ignite. I've done this many times without a chain fire. I've never had a chain fire, and have had caps fall off inadvertently while shooting (that was before I figured out a nipple and cap combo that fits right). There. "Proof". I could provide a video, if that constitutes proof also.

[Omnivore]

Maybe we should discuss the "machinery" of percussion ignition.;

Ever heard of a "fire piston"? If not, please look it up and read about how it works, then come back to the conversation. In short, it's like a Diesel engine-- compression alone leads to the high temperature that initiates combustion.

A percussion cap works very much the same way. The cylinder is packed tight with powder, and the end is plugged with lead. It's a blind hole, so "fire" isn't just going to "blow" into the chamber like wind. The caps's "fire" may help, by mainly it is the intense spike of high pressure that lights up the atmosphere, inside the flash hole, and between the tiny air spaces between granules right at the back of the chamber. We tend to think of it as a "spark" lighting the powder, like the spark in a cigarette lighter as at actually touches the thin zone of vapor/air mix at the wick, lighting it directly. But it's not really quite like that. It's more like Diesel ignition.

Leaving a nipple open, beside a fired one, may let in a teeny bit of heat and light through the pin hole, but it doesn't provide for that intense compression.

A flintlock by contrast relies mostly on the direct radiant heat from the flash in the pan. There's a little bit of compression there, but not near enough. The idea of a "whoosh" of flame entering the flash hole doesn't make a lot of sense, because it's a blind hole. There's no accommodating volume of air inside to make room for such incursion. Getting the main charge closer to the flash, by counter-boring the flash channel, is a we-ll known way to improve ignition time. Still, it is common enough to get a flash in the pan and still not ignite the main charge.

You could try lighting a small charge of black powder using a fire piston. If you do, and once your wrist is healed up from the amputation of your blow-up hand, then report back here and tell us that "sparks" are not needed to set off black powder, that compression of a small air space does a great job of it.

[rodwha]

I must admit that I have a hard time believing that a grain of powder can overcome a lead projectile upon being forced into the chamber, that the lead gives way to it to form a trail. This just doesn't seem logical to me at all.

Poorly fitting caps caps or the lack of one seems slightly more plausible, but as you mentioned what it would take to get through and still ignite the charge sounds pretty hard to do as well I suppose.

An out of round chamber would cut the projectile to that shape, though I guess one doesn't know precisely what's going on with the ram while pressing as I see my Remington's ram doesn't go straight down throughout the stroke. But with an elongated projectile it seems there wouldn't be any real wiggle room.

Anyone have a chain fire from a conical?

My father had one next to me using a ball. He did not put any sort of lube on the chamber mouth, but I don't recall him using a wad either. I'll be talking to him tomorrow and will have to ask.

[AtomHeartMother]

Lube ? What lube ? Lol... if you're shooting all day lube is a good idea. I rarely shoot more than 50 rounds out of any revolver I take to the range though I usually take several. Shooting this way, I simply don't have a need for any lube. Once in a while with my Remy's I'll lube the cylinder pin so it doesn't bind from fouling. All my revolvers stay plenty accurate up to my 50 round mark. I'm sure if I kept going though accuracy would suffer. I'm pretty convinced chain fires are happening at the rear, given you have a good ball fit. The cones on my walker are really worn and if I'm not careful with the caps, I will get a chainfire. What happens when cones wear is the vent hole keeps growing in diameter...causing a larger and larger jet of flame shooting all around the back of the cylinder. This will most certainly test the remaining caps on the loaded chambers. I suspect that enough heat and flame is being created to ignite the cap nearby without any leakage initially around the cap if that makes sense. The vents in the cones on my walker are absolutely huge( I really need to get some trescos) and with 50 grains in each chamber, things are getting pretty intense south of the chamber mouths... As someone mentioned earlier, lube over the ball really just makes more of a mess than anything. If you insist on lube, get some wonder wads to go in between the ball and powder. Back in the day, paper cartridged bullets for these guns didn't have any lube on them. I would guess the assumption was it wasn't necessary since most soldiers weren't going to be reloading a lot in the heat of battle.

[dondiego]

dondiego, swathdiver is correct: Most chain fires start at the rear of the cylinder and are attributable to a poor cap to nipple fit. The Bevel Brothers demonstrated this in an article in Muzzle Blasts several years ago. However, a poorly fitted, i.e., undersized RB (no shaved lead ring) + very sloppy powder management could feasibly result in chain firing as well.

I'll defer to Omnivore on this issue.

[rodwha]

I asked my father and he said he always uses a felt wad and that day was no different.

[Omnivore]

OK, maybe an eroded (enlarged) flash hole could result in a chain fire. So try it and report back; just how big of a drill bit do you have to take to the flash hole to make it ignite from an adjacent chamber while it's un-capped? A chainfire is not dangerous as long as you have a proper hold on the gun.

Who has actually read Fuhring"s thesis on this matter? He goes through some very methodical tests, and can create, or prevent a chainfire at will. His all came from the front. As some of you have said, it is very counter-intuitive, but so was the idea that the Earth was round, for most people.

One of the first things I do with a new percussion revolver is replace the nipples with Tressos. that way the same Remington #10 caps fit all of them perfectly. The Tresos also have a smaller flash hole than the Wap originals. Chainfires are not at all on my mind in making this decision though, because I've never had one.

Rodwha; What gun (what chamber size) and what size ball was your father using? The first thing I would do is examine the chamber mouths under a magnifying glass, looking for burrs or other defects or irregularities which could cut a ball and possibly leave a flash channel. Was he using cast or swaged ball? I'll go on the assumption that it happened from the front, unless the nipples are extremely open. Look for it at the front, because that's the overwhelmingly likely path to a chainfire.

Something happened to me last month that I've never noticed before. I was loading conicals, and afterwards, because it is a Walker, I noticed a rather large chunk of lead had been cut off the base of the bullet. I'd estimate it to be at least 20 grains of lead. In the Walker, the loading port is open only on one side, otherwise I wouldn't have notice. the blocked side captured the chunk. I don't know how I did it, but I cut a good portion of the base off the bullet. If such a thing could happen with a round ball, on most any other percussion revolver which has a loading port open to both sides, that would almost certainly result in a chainfire, and you'd never know why it happened. You'd be left speculating, and making things up, and other people would end up repeating them, and it would all sound very plausible yet be at the same time false, and this is how we too often "understand" things.

[rodwha]

I called him real quick and asked a few questions. He does not know the diameter of his chambers of his ASM 1860 Army.

He didn't seem 100% certain but is fairly sure he uses .451" balls but can't say for sure if it cuts a ring of lead. I know he's had it for quite some time but it's not his real interest.

He is lacking to get out of own for a while but I told him to really check his chambers and nipples, which I assume or factory. I'd have a hard time believing he wore them out as I'd be surprised if he's shot it enough, but I didn't think to ask if it was purchased new, or if it was his BP pistol or the one he got from his best friend who passed (where I got my ROA).

To be clear I don't believe chain fires from the front are hoey, but the idea that a grain of powder could cut its way through lead is the part I find a bit too hard to believe. I did read a good bit from that link, but it kind of drug on a bit and I lost interest.

I'm wondering how one would truly know if the chambers had an out of round spot without going to great lengths that are beyond average people. He is into reloading and likes to rebuild milsurp rifles.

[Tar Heel]

Did we migrate off topic here? I think the post was about lube.

[Omnivore]

Tar Heel; One of the most oft cited, long prevailing reasons for using "lube" in a percussion revolver is for the prevention of chain fire. Hence it could be argued that we've zeroed in on the topic.

Rodwha; IF the chain fire ignited from the front, the .451" ball would have made it easier to happen. The Waps have been recommending 451s for years, Cumpston and Bates, and others have, since over a decade ago, reported better accuracy and velocity with larger ball, and more recently more and more of the retailers have been recommending 454s. I use a minimum 454 in all my 44s, and I'm happy to use 457 as well.

Again; anyone who hasn't read Fuhring's thesis on the matter, I believe, is behind the curve. Speculation, "intuitive" surmise, and parroting of the surmise of others, are all rampant on the internet, but who has actually TRIED IT? Fuhring is the only one I've found, and so unless someone wants to chime in with their experiment designs, their extensive experimental process, and their carefully recorded findings, then please shut up. Whatever you think you know is probably wrong, no matter how many low resolution videos you've seen or stories you've heard, and no matter even your direct experience;
"I had a chain fire and so I know how it happened".
No, you don't. Unless you can prevent AND CAUSE chain fires at will, using conventional loading practices (no nicking the ball with a knife before loading, etc.), with a perfectly good gun, with perfectly good chambers, you don't actually know anything about it.

And by the way, if you have a Remington and you've used it a lot, you have dinged chamber mouths, almost guaranteed.

[rodwha]

And by the way, if you have a Remington and you've used it a lot, you have dinged chamber mouths, almost guaranteed.

I've seen the Remington twitch where it goes maybe 2/3 of the way in an ice lateral direction but then juts upards with my own. And I've wondered now how this alters things. But then it seems there are far more competition shooters using a Remington model over an Army model by far.

And that brings me to the .36 cal Pocket Police vs Navy model as I like the older school lines of the Navy but prefer the Police cylinder. And I've read the ratchet style loader is much more preferred, especially with a conical.

[rodwha]

SWMBO is sleeping so I'll have to check my chambers but they were chamfered by Fly when he reamed them. It may not readily show.

[Josh Smith]

I purchased some lubed felt wads.

Left the revolver loaded and when I fired it, it fizzled. The lube had migrated. So no more lubed wads for me.

Now, I make and use this:

1 part beeswax
1 part lanolin
1/2 part canola oil
1/2 part olive oil

It goes on top of the balls, lubes the arbor and all internal workings.

No petroleum near my black powder stuff.

This is also used as patch lube and as lube on my cast .45acp bullets.

Josh

[rodwha]

I recalled having the ram catch on the rim of the chamber once in awhile prior to having Fly fix it up for me. I don't recall it afterwards. Checked and I do have a little burr on the chamfer edge near the base pin area. As I recall it was catching on the other end/outer edge. I'll need to smooth that out.

[Texas by God]

I used Carmex one time on a 3rd model Dragoon. Worked perfectly and the gun smelled better with no cold sores....... Not kidding. Best, Thomas.

[Texas by God]

I've always been skeptical about the whole chain-fire thing. After seating a soft lead ball into the cylinder and shaving off a ring of lead in the process, I don't get how a spark could get past that ball. The possibility of a chain fire occurring from the cap end of the cylinder seems more likely. To that end, the lube is really only there to keep the fouling manageable. I've shot with lube on top of the ball and with lubed wads seated under the ball and with no lube at all. I far prefer the wads under the ball to manage fouling. Lube on top of the ball is slightly better than no lube at all, but only slightly and it makes a huge mess.

I was skeptical as well until it happened to me. I loaded my .44c&b without felt wads or lube and it fired 3 chambers at once. One down the barrel, one along the right side of the barrel and one dead on the ram of the loading lever. No harm to me except a stinging hand and the revolver survives to this day. Since then I tumble lube the balls and use commercial felt wads. Once is enough of that business. Best, Thomas.

[swathdiver]

Now, I make and use this:

1 part beeswax
1 part lanolin
1/2 part canola oil
1/2 part olive oil


You don't need both of those oils. You could pick one and double up. On the other hand, is their a reason you use both? Lanolin works but I think it's expensive unless you have sheep walking around your yard.

We use the US Army's 1855 mixture of 3 Parts Tallow and 1 Part Beeswax. This is pretty hard, though not as hard as their 1861 recipe of 1 Parts Tallow and 8 Parts Beeswax! When hot and in liquid form, you can easily lube your wads and conicals and fouling a load is unlikely unless your sixgun was left out of the shade.

[rfd]

i use good ol' basic gato feo for everything from bpcr greasers to patch strips for muzzleloaders, and now melted into 1/8" hard felt for c&p revolver (felt wad over a .025 milk carton wad, to stifle lube mitigation into the powder charge).

[Texas by God]

The argument about front or back ignition on chain fire can rage on but somehow it only happens when no grease or lubed felt is used. Things that make you go hmm.

[rodwha]

The argument about front or back ignition on chain fire can rage on but somehow it only happens when no grease or lubed felt is used. Things that make you go hmm.

Except that my father always uses a wad and had one while we were at the range together... Hmmmm indeed.

[Dbtk44]

My experience...Before I started making paper cartridges, it was pretty much a given that my first shot from the Walker (50+grains 3f ) would be a chain fire...but only the first shot of the shooting session, and always the chamber to the left (#6 chamber? EDIT: DOH! meant #2). I got to thinking that maybe it had something to do with a forcing cone/cylinder clearance gap, and after the first shot the fouling bridged the gap sufficiently to prevent further chain fires. I always cut a nice ring off the .457 balls when I loaded them, and on the rare occasions when I had to manually remove a ball, it was quite a task. So, the balls were seated very tight.

But I started making paper cartridges with a lube pill under the ball ( no felt wad ), and haven't had a chain fire in years. The lube pill gets smashed and expands quite a bit, and I have a feeling it completely seals the chamber and fills in any irregularities or ever so slight gaps the chamber and ball might have. I think it might negate the "cylinder gap" issue I suspected as the culprit for the chain fires...never took the time to measure the clearance, but probably should one of these days.

Anyway, that's my take. I also shoot a pair of Pietta 1858 NA's, and never had either of them chain fire on me...but then, I used paper cartridges with a lube pill from the get-go on those.

[Dbtk44]

Except that my father always uses a wad and had one while we were at the range together... Hmmmm indeed.

Hmmm, Interesting. Lubed wad, or dry lube? Be curious to know, because like I said, I seem to have cured my chain fire problem with just a lube pill, but never tried a wad. Every piece of equipment is different though, and could well be a cap related issue.

[archangel2003]

Maybe we should discuss the "machinery" of percussion ignition.;

Ever heard of a "fire piston"? If not, please look it up and read about how it works, then come back to the conversation. In short, it's like a Diesel engine-- compression alone leads to the high temperature that initiates combustion.

A percussion cap works very much the same way. The cylinder is packed tight with powder, and the end is plugged with lead. It's a blind hole, so "fire" isn't just going to "blow" into the chamber like wind. The caps's "fire" may help, by mainly it is the intense spike of high pressure that lights up the atmosphere, inside the flash hole, and between the tiny air spaces between granules right at the back of the chamber. We tend to think of it as a "spark" lighting the powder, like the spark in a cigarette lighter as at actually touches the thin zone of vapor/air mix at the wick, lighting it directly. But it's not really quite like that. It's more like Diesel ignition.

Leaving a nipple open, beside a fired one, may let in a teeny bit of heat and light through the pin hole, but it doesn't provide for that intense compression.

A flintlock by contrast relies mostly on the direct radiant heat from the flash in the pan. There's a little bit of compression there, but not near enough. The idea of a "whoosh" of flame entering the flash hole doesn't make a lot of sense, because it's a blind hole. There's no accommodating volume of air inside to make room for such incursion. Getting the main charge closer to the flash, by counter-boring the flash channel, is a we-ll known way to improve ignition time. Still, it is common enough to get a flash in the pan and still not ignite the main charge.

You could try lighting a small charge of black powder using a fire piston. If you do, and once your wrist is healed up from the amputation of your blow-up hand, then report back here and tell us that "sparks" are not needed to set off black powder, that compression of a small air space does a great job of it.

Former Diesel engine tech here and designed more than a few engines in my time.

That whole "Diesel" nonsense sounds well intended, but if you knew of the truly high pressures needed, you would know your theory was not valid.
The chamber is not as solidly full as you think, and you need a large volume to compress into a tiny volume, and that cap will not serve the same purpose as a piston.
There is more than enough room for the VIOLENT flame generated by the cap to get through the nipple, that is a tiny pin hole that accelerates the flame like a ventury, and pushes well into the black powder with more than enough force and heat to ignite it.
But it sure as hell is NOT diesel ignition!
If it were, you could fill the cylinder with black powder wetted down with ATF, veg oil, Diesel or Kerosene, and the gun would still fire, but it wont, because wet powder like that WILL fire in a true Diesel, but NOT your BP gun!
Try it.

[Boaz]

Been shooting revolvers bout 45 years . I have used Crisco , wool fat , mutton tallow , beeswax , tolitbowl rings , spit wad ,bore butter , different oils and combinations there of . I find felt wads with olive oil left a couple of days on paper towels to draw out the excess oil work great and little mess and very easy . If your sealing the chamber with Crisco you better take a couple of cotton rags to wipe em down or the pistol gets so greasy you can't hold it , lol .

All the lube does is keep the fouling soft which is nice . No accuracy is lost using dry wads .

[SSGOldfart]

Lamb tallow beeswax and paraffin I'll have to look up the recipe later my book is in the shop. I've used salt free Crisco with Vaseline and beeswax for years, making lube cookies is just too much trouble for me I'm a bit lazy now....

[rodwha]

Lamb tallow beeswax and paraffin I'll have to look up the recipe later my book is in the shop. I've used salt free Crisco with Vaseline and beeswax for years, making lube cookies is just too much trouble for me I'm a bit lazy now....

Sounds like Gatofeo's #1 lube. If so it's (by weight) 1 part paraffin wax, 1 part mutton tallow, and 1/2 part bees wax. LOVE the stuff and use it on my pistol boolits, rifle conicals, and wads, but also hear it works for patches too.

[SSGOldfart]

Sounds like Gatofeo's #1 lube. If so it's (by weight) 1 part paraffin wax, 1 part mutton tallow, and 1/2 part bees wax. LOVE the stuff and use it on my pistol boolits, rifle conicals, and wads, but also hear it works for patches too.

Yes Sir that's the same.you can make it little softer,by increasing the beeswax,and it's great on patches as well.

[toot]

years ago it was CRISCO smeared over each cylinder with a pop sickle stick and no body complained, it was the lube of chose. if it ain't broke don't fix it. as they say too each his own.

[rodwha]

Lube over the projectile is rather messy. It ends up everywhere. That's what I would call broken...

Lubed grips and hand(s) doesn't sound good to me.

[bigted]

Sounds like some have not seen the value of a good towel. Crisco all the way always have a nice lube star on the muzzle as well. Only as messy as you make it.

[Outpost75]

I make/use a 50-50 mix of beeswax and lard. When weather turn cooler I thin out with Vegetable or Olive Oil. Works fine for me.


Ah, Confederate Army Lube! I use 50-50 beeswax and Goya manteca (filtered, unsalted lard).

[rodwha]

Oh, I keep a couple of shop towels in my shooting box that I use to wipe down my revolvers with.

Lube in the groove on my boolits or lube in a felt wad under the ball works quite well and doesn't end up all over my gun or collect crud as the old outside lubricated bullets of the late 1800's were known to do, which is why they don't do it that way anymore.

[derek45]

I'm making beeswax and olive oil now in the microwave.

I always use .454" or even .457" to make a nice lead ring seal.

https://i.imgur.com/aAkVhoy.jpg