Cast Lead In Pistols With Polygonal Rifling?

[Guy La Pourque]

I bought my HK USP .45 with the best intentions. I learned after I bought it that they don't recommend cast boolits and if it goes 'ka-boom' when you are using them - all warranties are void.

In these disgraceful times I know perfectly well that if I tripped over my shadow and stubbed my toe I could sue YOU for it and probably count on a cash settlement - all it takes is a sleazy lawyer and an idiot judge, I suppose, and there are plenty of them about.

But I am not interested in frivolous lawsuits or cashing in by screwing over a good gun company...in the 'REAL' world...can you use cast lead in guns with polygonal rifling? I understand that the Glock guys may be in the same boat.

Your two cents is sincerely appreciated!

Jim

[C. Latch]

I have never been a Glock/HK person but you might get some use out of this thread. It's a sticky in the handgun section:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?33855-The-Truth-about-Glocks-and-Cast

[dragon813gt]

The warranty most likely said no reloads as well.

[dancingbear41]

Back in the good old days when we had pistols in the UK I had an H&K P9S. It was the most accurate .45 ACP auto pistol I ever shot. I don't recall ever shooting factory ammo or even J-word bullets out of it. It's diet was entirely cast or swaged homeloads. I have every confidence your gun will perform with cast bullet loads. I believe nearly all warranties say no reloads, has that ever stopped us?

All the best.

Simon.

[milprileb]

Storm Lake and others sell barrels for H&K pistols so you don't have to worry about this issue. My buddy got one and is overjoyed with it. I think they make them for Glocks as well.

That said, I was blissfully hammering tens of hundreds of 45 acp cast loads thru my USP 45 till one day I read you can't do this for reasons you stated. I called H&K and they confirmed you can't do it. Well....I must be cleaning the barrel awful good cause I shot a ton of rounds and no issues whatsoever.

Or I was really lucky on no Ka Boom. However after 3 wars , I have run out of luck (and pushing my luck) and ceased shooting cast bullets in the USP and stopped my son doing it as well. I got 1911 pistols to shoot 45acp in so why push my luck.

You will find others with similiar stories of no issues shooting cast in polygonal barrels and some places claim this style rifling can't grab and hold lead deposits. I don't know what I don't know on what is the bottom line or truth. To date no manufacturer has retracted their prohibition warnings to not shoot lead in poly barrels.

Not much help but you got all I got on this subject. I have my suspicions its all bunk and inspired by some over eager lawyer to preclude any mishaps on a H&K or Glock pistol. but..... HK and GLock are major quality makers and know their stuff so there might be good reason they caution not to shoot cast or lead bullets.

[chris in va]

I had a Glock 21sf for about a year and put about a thousand LRN through the stock barrel. Zero leading, but I cleaned it after every range outing. One thing about Glock rifling, it's not a true 'polygonal' pattern, but rather a smoothbore with some round speedbumps thrown in.

Now my Kahr has the traditional stopsign pattern and one mag clogged it up nicely.

[milprileb]

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?43205-Hard-lesson-on-shooting-lead-in-polygonal-rifled-barrel


Here is more on the subject: Ka Boooooooooooooooooooooooom

[fredj338]

When the Glock17 first came out, there was no lead bullet warning. I shot 1000s thru the OEM bbl, 3K w/o cleaning. It finally blew the extractor out. So lead bullets & poly rifling, just clean the bbl often, like every 200rds or so. Higher pressure rounds, keeping the bbl clean is even more important.

[dkf]

The warranty most likely said no reloads as well.

Yes sir.

Moral of the story here is if you want to shoot reloaded ammo, cast boolits and etc, then you KB your gun...... You did it so you can pay to fix it. It is only right really. If your HK goes KB on say factory Winchester ammo then Winchester pays for repairs.

[OuchHot!]

One aspect to consider is that cast boolits frequently are used without quite as much dimensional control. Add to this the variable resizing plus variable temper of used brass and slipping a crimp/deep seating on feeding is more likely than with factory j-types. In a 45acp the pressure doesn't spike anywhere near as quick as with a 40S&W or 9mm. Yeah, I have shot thousands of cast through my 40 glock but I am very careful about cartridge oal and boolit tightness in the loaded round.

[KYCaster]

Polygon rifling often does best with larger than normal boolits. Find the largest boolit that will fit without interfering with bullet pull.

Down in the Handgun section there's a stickie about "The truth about Glocks and cast boolits". It should have all the info you need.

Jerry

[OuchHot!]

I am kinda interested in the general topic of polygonal bores and Lead cast boolits. Years ago I shot a lot of lead in my Desert Eagle but stopped out of paranoia of plugging the gas system. The polygonal bore seemed to stay very clean and was very accurate. I have two glocks and find they stay very clean with cast. Still, several manufacturers have tried to use polygonal bores in both .22LR/.32 S&W match guns and in Olympic air rifles and pistols and always seem to go back to conventional rifling. I was told by a Russian vendor of Olympic pistols that they had more variability in accuracy. Maybe a polygonal bore needs tight fit?

[Photog]

I have a Tanfo Limited with a polygonal barrel. Its been a journey to make it shoot lead properly.
First I push through size all my cases because of feeding issues, well know in the Tanfo community. I was sizing TOO MUCH for the lead, so now i push through full size through a Lee FCD. The cases will just barely fit in a case gauge, but they chamber just fine.
Lesson 1: size cases a big as you can, they need to chamber and thats it.

My mold is a Lee 175 tumble lube semi-wadcutter 6 holer. I enlarged the mold cavaties a little by spinning a bullet in them with rubbing compound. The bullets will not fit in the case gauge, and now completely fill the barrel.
Lesson 2: get the bullets to totally seal the bore, which means usually a little bigger than normal.

I was putting too much crimp on the rounds and basicly resizing them, making the bullet too small. I am only taking the flare off and putting a crimp on from the seater die. I WAS a fan of the FCD, but its got a new job now.

My load is:
range brass, push through sized in a FCD (mostly Win or RP)
Win SPP
4.4gr Titegroup
oal 1.15"
180.5 - 180.8 gr with WLL 40-40-10 lube, cast lead. Mix of 30% linotype and 70% soft lead, water dropped and aged a week.

I still get some leading, not bad, but I'm working to get it to go away too.
The biggest issue I had was tumbling bullets, they would hit the target sideways and accuracy was terrible. Now that the bullet is filling the barrel, I get nice round holes on the target, and they are going where pointed. My load is not perfect, and not as accurate as a Montana Gold load, but getting close enough for match use.