Any electricians out there, ground fault ? [Archive]

Buckshot

11-22-2007, 02:26 AM

.............My house was built in 1951. Wiring is 2 conductor, hot and neutral. I did a remodel in a bedroom and turned it into a master bath and dressing area for a master bedroom addition we'll be doing later.

Since there was to be an outlet over the new vanity I installed a ground fault interupt outlet to meet code. It is wired off the existing black/white 2 conductor with 12-2 romex. As there is no ground connection with the existing wire, it's not connected.

The ground wire is connected to the light switch next to the GFI, and then runs up to a light fixture. The inspector didn't seem to really know what he was doing, or struck me as being a bit nervous. I failed the final inspection because the inspector said the ground was 'open'. He'd stuck a small plug type tester into the GFI and only one light lit.

He had to hold it up and stare at it to see what that one light represented. That's when he said 'open' ground. I felt like saying,"Of course it's open as it isn't hooked to anything", and explained about the 2 wire system. I pressed the test button on the GFI and it tripped. He wasn't moved :-)

Guestion is, is it okay the way it is or if not what do I need to do?

...............BUckshot

Pepe Ray

11-22-2007, 02:49 AM

Your about as safe as you are with a firearm w/o a safety.
The problem (difference?) is that in your electrical system you are NOT the only creature handling it. Not only are there other humans (children?) using your juice but also uninvited things like mice.
Your in a very old house. I can't tell how your building was constructed so I can only say that I redid mine. Replaced all wires as I remodeled over the years. Never had enough outlets till then. Also, looking at the future, my outlets are waist high or more.
Depending on the government represented by the inspector, you'll probably hear from him/them w/i 30 days. Good luck.
Pepe Ray

S.R.Custom

11-22-2007, 03:17 AM

Safetywise, you're good to go... (See number 3 of the text here)

http://www.icgov.org/housing/documents/wiringalts.pdf

HOWEVER: Legally, you're kinda screwed. According to code, any new electrical work done has to be done to current code. In other words, you should have run 12/2 with ground so as to provide a ground back to the service panel. If you don't have a ground at the service panel, it's conceivable you could be made to update the service as well.

But wait, there's more. Check your PMs.

monadnock#5

11-22-2007, 11:17 AM

A guy I know had to attend a class on electrical safety for the phone co. When the classroom was full the instructor walked up to the desk, and picked up a coiled drop light. He plugged it in and turned the light on, and then very gingerly lowered the lamp into an aquarium filled with water. During the the class the instructor never once spoke of , or made reference to the lamp. Never once did the lamp flicker, waver or go out. It went right on shining as cheerily as it would have in clear air. And this was a grounded outlet, although not GFI.

woodman51jfk

11-22-2007, 12:05 PM

Without doing a complete re-wire, the only way to achieve the desired results of a GFCI ( safety and inspection wise ) would be to run a single, stranded 12ga, home run to the neutral bar in your load center from the recep. I have seen green tags on remodels where the 3rd wire ground for the addition was a copper grounding rod driven to 6 - 8 ft. deep & 4ga ground lead clamped on...........even on some old knob & post wired homes that got passed, as long as local ordinances don't supersede NEC.
Never embarrass or insult the inspector..........even if you're right.......you'll never be right.........
Hope this helps &
Have A Safe & Happy Thanksgiving,
To You & Yours.............and all on the forum,
John

scrapcan

11-22-2007, 11:42 PM

You might want to check to see if you can bond to common. This lets you have ground and common and you would only have to run a new strand to you new electrical work. I am not an electrician so maybe someone else can explain this further to see if it will help you solve the problem.

garandsrus

11-23-2007, 12:43 AM

Buckshot,

I'm also not an electrician, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but...

I put an addition on my kitchen and did the electrical work, which all passed inspection. I was surprised and amazed that in my breaker box the neutral and ground come to the exact same bar! In effect, there is no difference between neutral and ground wires. Either one would complete the neutral side of a circuit. With that in mind, here are three options:

1) Tie two pigtails to the neutral wire in the box with a wire nut. Run one to the neutral on the GFI outlet and the other to the ground on the GFI outlet. You could tie the light into this also.

2) Do the equivalent by running a pigtail from the GFI neutral (the one that was taped over when you bought the outlet) to the ground. I'm not sure about this one, but think it would work.

3) Do you need to run the wire through metallic conduit? If so, the conduit is probably grounded already. That's the way a house was done in Chicago that I renovated. In this case, attach the neutral wire from the metal outlet box to the ground on the GFI.

I don't know if #1 or #2 would meet code (number #3 would) but either one should make the lights work correctly on the tester. You can pick up an outlet tester that can also test GFI plugs for about $10 at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. There are two types of testers, one that will test standard outlets and also test GFI and one that will only test standard outlets, so make sure you get the right one.

I would also suggest always running wire with a ground for any remodeling you are doing. This could save you considerable time and trouble down the road if you decide to update the old wiring to include a ground.

John

Lloyd Smale

11-23-2007, 07:14 AM

Heres my take on it. FIrst you have to go by your local code. Ours demands a seperate ground rod for the neutral . A gfis purpose is to trip instantaniously and connected to the common ground bar in you system it might not. Electricity goes to ground at the point of least reisisntance and connected to the common bar it is relying on the electical companys entire ground systme and that contains many miles of wire. It also relys on your home ground but in an older house that might not be that good. Our codes demand two ground rods drove and the ground rods must be 16 feet (two 8 foot rods connected together) and connected to the ground bar not the common bar. Doing that you get a faster path to ground with the least ammount of resistance. That way if your power companys neutral happens to open (which does happen) your gfi will still work. A gfi wired to your common bar is no different then a common breaker.

garandsrus

11-23-2007, 10:47 AM

Lloyd,

I expected to find what you described, a separate ground and neutral bar, but as I said, I have one bar with both types of wire connected to it.

I do have ground bars connected to the common/neutral bar, so the entire house is grounded with or without a ground supplied by the power company. When I had my service moved (due to the remodel), they drove new ground rods. They also connected a ground to the city water system by the meter.

I have tested my GFI outlets and they trip as they are supposed to.
John

powderburnerr

11-23-2007, 11:39 AM

the test feature is a mechanical switch , you need to test it with a power load , if it trips then you should be able to pass code , ,,I dont think the unit will trip electricallly with an open ground......Dean

woodman51jfk

11-23-2007, 11:51 AM

..........what ya got here is many ways of saying the same thing..........tying the GFCI tag end to the neutral run WILL show as a good ground for inspection purposes, ( NEC prohibits junctions inside load centers ) but WILL NOT give the GFCI the desired home ground run required by code ( if the inspector asks you to pull the face plate...you're busted ). A third wire run to the load center, or if local code permits, run to a ground rod, will be the only way to achieve the two results you want....safety for the family & passing the electrical inspection.
I should have stated earlier that I have held a NEC journeyman license, and work in the building trades as a profession.

scrapcan

11-23-2007, 12:48 PM

Woodman51jfk is the go to at this point. He is our resident expert to date. You must also be aware of which NEC code your local regulatory agency runs under. Where I live we are a few behind the current.

jjamna

11-23-2007, 01:06 PM

I am a card carrying electrician and I don't give any advise without seeing the installation myself. I wish others would do the same. You are dealing with a very dangerous situation when you mess with electricty. PLEASE BE CAREFUL PEOPLE

hivoltfl

11-23-2007, 01:12 PM

woodman51jfk is correct, I am the AHJ, (Authority Having Jurisdiction) in DMS owned State buildings here in Florida, I think everyone needs to keep in mind the difference between a neutral and a ground, a neutral or common is a current carrying conductor that completes the circuit so current will flow and a light bulb or other device will operate, a GROUND is a safety wire that prevents current or voltage from going where it can cause injury or death.
The Nec states the neutral shall be bonded to the ground at one location usually in the service panel, without going into the NEC and boring everyone half to death if you want your house as safe as possible its time to consider a rewire and bring it up to local codes, been in this business 41 years now and the codes today are much changed from when your house was wired.

montana_charlie

11-23-2007, 02:07 PM

targetshootr

11-23-2007, 02:51 PM

Around here in an older house if you do work on a two-wire outlet in a bath or kitchen or outside you have to go back with a GFI outlet. And since the only way to get a proper ground is to run a new wire to the service panel, they don't require us to do it so far. I think part of the reason is the cost to the homeowner would be prohibitive and a GFI will work with or without a grounding conductor. But your mileage may vary depending on the jurisdiction having authority. The sad fact is, most inspectors are electricians who couldn't make in business in the first place.

targetshootr

11-23-2007, 03:12 PM

I should change one thing, inspectors couldn't care less about the cost to homeowners or anyone else for that matter. It would be a good idea to check with his supervisor or you could spend a lot of money you don't have to.

waksupi

11-23-2007, 03:52 PM

Inspectors are curious animals. When I was building my cabin back in 1986, I had all the wiring in place, walls open for inspection. The inspector showed up, looked around, and said, "Well, it looks like you know what you are doing. Call me when you have the interior enclosed, and I will do the final inspection."
So, I called him a month or so later, and he said he would be back to inspect it.
I'm still waiting. 21 years. Never have seen the guy again!

targetshootr

11-23-2007, 04:12 PM

That's a fact. I could spend a week telling stories about inspectors.

:drinks:

Blackhawk Convertable

11-23-2007, 04:38 PM

Last year my wife's electric frying pan cord with the potentiometer fried BAD! Completely melted and smoked up the kitchen. Guess what? It never tripped the GFCI. And yes, everything is wired correctly.

Nice to have them. Hope they work. The latest that we are hearing about them protecting is, maybe, maybe not. Doesn't hurt any to have them. But I'm not going to take a bath and "test" the GFCI by dropping a toaster in with me.

AZ-Stew

11-23-2007, 04:54 PM

Blackhawk,

GFCIs are not for the prevention of short circuits, which is what destroyed your frying pan. Circuit breakers or fuses are supposed to do that job. GFCIs are there to prevent electricity from taking an alternate path to ground. If you happen to be part of that "alternate path", they may save your hide.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFCI for more info.

Regards,

Stew

S.R.Custom

11-23-2007, 05:33 PM

As an architect/project manager I've had many a go-around with inspectors of all the trades, and the lesson I've learned time and time again is do whatever is necessary to keep the dumb batárds off your job. I've invested 7 years of education and 25 years of residential and commercial building experience in my skill set, and to have some idiot with a 6-week certification go ego-trippin' on me absolutely sends me around the bend. Keep the twits off your job by whatever means necessary.

The residential codes were made as prescriptive as they are in the hopes that their specificity keeps the inspector discretionary powers (read: stupidity) to a minimum. But we all know what happens when you try to legislate stupidity out of the equation... [/rant]

That said, you've gotten a lot of advice here, some of quite expedient in nature. ( [smilie=1: ) And that will get you out of the current difficulty, but I would take this opportunity to update the electrical service to the house. When you put in that addition, you're pretty much going to have to do it anyway, as current code requires sleeping spaces to be protected by arc-fault breakers and hard wired smoke detectors, and your current electrical service is not capable of accomodating that.

If you update the service now, you will have a much easier time of it if you can present a wiring situation to the idiot, err, inspector that he's used to seeing, and to which you both can refer to in a code-book. As soon as you try to patch in fixes to the old service in an attempt to accomodate new requirements, the difficulties you will have with the local inspectory will make your current difficulties seem trivial.

Good luck!

Catshooter

11-23-2007, 07:44 PM

Buckshot,

I have been an electricaian for over 33 years now. It's how I've made my living. There are many electricians who can't properly answer the question you've asked, let alone non-electricians. It's a technical one. Would you listen to a group of cops (or golfers, anyone not in the know) how come your 91/30 leads with a BN 22 gas-checked Loverin, but not a Postell? Hardly.

With no disrepect indended for any of the other posters, much of what has been said is just not so.

Of all the answers you've gotten, only poster #13 gives you the correct one. Please go with his, as grounding/bonding and neutral vs. ground are complex questions and only best answered by looking at the total situation who knows what the hell he's doing.

Cat

targetshootr

11-23-2007, 08:06 PM

Welp, electricians (even the ones in business) are like inspectors in one sense: if you get ten in a room you'll get ten various answers to the same question. So I have to vote for posters #16 and #21.

:drinks:

trk

11-23-2007, 08:46 PM

The NEC is a recommendation of wiring practices published by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) every 3 years.

Each state enacts legislation adopting some or all of it.

Generally it is the building official who's word is law.

Obviously the GFCI is there incase the neutral (also called ground - white or gray) is interrupted or broken. The 'grounding' (green wire) and the 'ground' wire are hooked together at the service box. The GFCI device will sence the condition of a broken or interruped ground (IIRC it will sense a 5mA difference in current).

Local code MAY require when you add wiring to bring all or part of the wiring up to current code standards. That's up to the locality.

Generally a home-owner is allowed to do his own wiring, that is not required to hire an electrician. Again local jurisdiction.

targetshootr

11-23-2007, 08:48 PM

I meant to ask anyone with an active license if you have to take classroom work every year or if you can take online/home booklet courses? Until this year in NC we've been ok with the online/booklet but they're about to change it to 8 classroom hours every year.

454PB

11-23-2007, 10:34 PM

I wouldn't install a GFCI without a proper ground connection, it's useless and might get you killed someday. When I wired my shop, I left the bonding screw installed in the load center just as it came from the factory. The ONLY thing the inspector hit me for was that bonding screw, and he simply had me remove it while he watched. The bonding screw connects the neutral bar to the ground bar. Yes, there are neutral (white) wires and bare (ground) wires connected to the same junction bars, but they can't be connected within the load center.

As was already pointed out, neutrals are designed to carry current....grounds are not, they are a safety device.

targetshootr

11-23-2007, 10:47 PM

Flag on the play. Actually, you're better off with an ungrounded GFI outlet than a standard outlet. Unless you have a fridge plugged into it but that's a whole other matter.

Buckshot

11-24-2007, 06:06 AM

I haven't figured out (from reading) why you installed a GFI outlet. Was it just because it is located near a faucet?

What kind of pipe services that faucet?

A metal cold water pipe has been 'the system ground' in some older electrical code editions...in houses where all of the pipe was metal.
But, if any plastic pipe has been added since 1951, you would need to know where.
CM

............The city of Redlands has always been kind of snobbish as it's a 'Money' town. It was incorporated as a place for the wealthy folk to escape the winters. But that was 130 years ago. However it has remained kind of difficult to deal with in certain cases. My dad was really surprised after we'd bought the house that the romex wasn't carried in flex. He knew of contractors that refused to work in Redlands for various reasons.

We had insert type dual glazed windows installed. The contractor assured us that no permit was required as no structural changes are made in installation. The contract stipulated they were to take care of all fees, inspections and to guarentee the installation would meet any codes from federal on down.

During the day of installation I had to leave for awile. When I got back the foreman handed me a card from a code enforcement guy from the city who wanted me to call him. I called and he said he couldn't find a permit on file and that I'd have to provide one. I explained this to the foreman and he said he'd let the owner of the company know.

To back up a bit, the contractor we used had supplied local referances as to their work in this type installation. Some were only a couple blocks away. During the interview my wife even brought up permits, and they assured us none were required, and they took care of everything.

So they pulled a permit. A couple days later I got a call from an inspector wanting to set a time to come by for the final. We met in the driveway and he glanced at the 2 front windows. We walked through the garage and out back. A kitchen window was close by and he leaned over and touched it. He said, "Vinyl?" and I said yes. We continued walking across the back yard where 3 other windows were visible. Then around to the north side of the house. We'd never stopped walking and he asked, "These are insert windows, aren't they?" and I said yes again.

By then we were waliking across the front yard. He stopped and said that if they were inserts, why did we have to pull a permit? I said I had no idea. He turned to walk away and said as he got into his pickup, "Well, more money for the city I guess". He added he'd get it taken care of, and with that he drove off.

To answer Charlie's question, the code says in any wet location or within X number of inches from any faucet, other water source or drain, outlets have to be GFI's.

...................Buckshot

Lloyd Smale

11-24-2007, 07:19 AM

I dont bad mouth inspectors. Im an electrical lineman and for years we hooked up services to homes and didnt have to wait for inspections. It was just in the last 10 years that it was manditory. A few of our lineman had close calls because of it. Now we dont hook unless theres an inspection sticker on it. Wiring a home isnt rocket science and i truely believe a man with average intelegence can do his own but its just to easy to make a mistake ever for a qualified electrician and there should be someone checking behind you. Some of the worse wiring jobs ive seen have come from licenced electricians. Ive seen inspectors actually hand inspection stickers to licenced electricians before a job was even done and have reported them for doing it. If youve seen one meter explode youd know why. Were kind of a backwards utility and just recently have gotten equiptment to check before we plug them in and the training to have the mindset to actually test them, but it still makes you nervous and good inspectors have saved us a few mishaps. My appologys to the licienced electricians here but just because you hire a electrician with a licience doesnt gurantee good work. there are shaddy contractors in every faucet of the trade. As to the dangers of working on your own, I have seen what electricity can do to a man and respect it. But its just like loading or casting if your the type that takes shortcuts and chances it will catch you eventually. But the average man with some common sense can surely do his own wiring.

targetshootr

11-24-2007, 10:05 AM

MT Gianni

11-24-2007, 12:12 PM

I have no trouble trashing inspectors but that's only because I deal with them every day. Most are decent and know what they're doing but like every trade there's some bad apples out there and when they cost contractors and homeowners money because they're incompetent or just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, the gloves come off.

When me moved a pipeline because the state widened the road the inspector had a sign on his office door. "Arguing with an Inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. You find out pretty soon the Inspector enjoys it more than you do". Gianni

S.R.Custom

11-24-2007, 01:50 PM

"Well, more money for the city I guess".

It's worse than that. In smaller jurisdictions, inspector's pay usually takes the form of a percentage of the take (commission). So the permitting & inspection process is no more than institutionalized, government sponsored extortion.

targetshootr

11-24-2007, 01:52 PM

I recently put in a call to the state about the head of an electrical dept of a large town and when the field examiner called back he was pissed off at the guy for something that had already happened and used more profanity than me about him. And it was all cleared up soon after that. They're no better than anybody else.

montana_charlie

11-24-2007, 02:33 PM

To answer Charlie's question, the code says in any wet location or within X number of inches from any faucet, other water source or drain, outlets have to be GFI's.

...................Buckshot
I suspected that to be the case. However, installing a GFI outlet which has no ground connection is simply 'cosmetic'. The GFI function of that outlet has no true ground potential to use as a comparison level while monitoring the hot lead for errant ground connections.

However, read on, Buckshot.

Since it IS a 'wet area', there should be water pipes nearby.

It was my intent to bring that to your attention...so you could evaluate their suitability...as you search for a place to ground your GFI outlet.
CM

targetshootr

11-24-2007, 02:52 PM

Holy crap. Buckshot, post your address so we can set up a fund for your family when one of us gets you killed.

lathesmith

11-24-2007, 04:09 PM

The simple but important purpose of a GFCI outlet is to compare the two paths of current flow--the hot v the neutral(return) path. When these are unequal, it trips, usually quick enough to prevent electrocution.
Bonding neutral to ground is the method used in this area--but at the main breaker box ONLY. Ground should NEVER be used to carry current--it is for safety only.
I have to agree with Catshooter about this--talk to a knowledgable local guy on this one. Fooling around with house electricity is definitely dangerous stuff, and should be done with utmost care and respect. Remember, your life or the life of someone you love DEPENDS on you to do it right, no excuses.
lathesmith

mtgrs737

11-25-2007, 01:36 AM

GFI's only protect from electricity taking an alternate route and don't protect you from being a "Load". I would run a ground wire back to ground bar in the breaker panel which should be conected to a ground rod.

Lloyd Smale

11-25-2007, 08:56 AM

mtgrs brings up a good point. Dont rely on any gfi to save your life. A certain ammont of the current is going to flow through you for a period of time till it trips. There is no such thing as a perfect ground. We work on power lines all the time grounded and about all it does is insure that our trip breakers wont close back in after the current goes to ground. Granted your better off with some of it going to ground but some will pass through your body. In a not so perfect situation it take very little amperage to stop your heat and low voltage home system are very high in amperage. So dont get sloppy because you think you have a gfi protecting you. They react to fault current so to trip have to sense a problem and it could be to late for you allready.

woodman51jfk

11-25-2007, 02:01 PM

..........any other simple questions we can help with.............say like quantum physics..............or the molecular infrastructure of black holes...........a good cryptographer should be able to get the answer to your original question from these two pages of comments..........or just chuck it & turn the room into a waterless gun vault...........

woodman51jfk

11-25-2007, 02:05 PM

PREVIOUS POSTING WAS INTENDED AS TONGUE IN CHEEK, AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS FACT, OR DIRECTED AT ANY PERSONS LIVING DEAD, OR ZOMBIE

Catshooter

11-25-2007, 02:10 PM

Actually, what a GFCI does is detect power going elsewhere (yes, an alternate path) and that is how it protects you from becoming a "Load". The ordinary residential GFCI will kill power in about 5 to 10 thousanths of a second. And it trips when it detects about 5 thousanths of an amp difference.

Of course, that's assuming it works. But one trusts his life every day, all day to things working. If the roof over you head fails right now, it could kill you. A metor could fall and cut your head off.

Shessh.

Cat

waksupi

11-25-2007, 03:58 PM

Another electrical question.

When I got up this morning, and turned on the flourescent light, it only comes on very dimly. Bulb? Ballast? Need a new fixture?

Pepe Ray

11-25-2007, 04:43 PM

Waksupi;
Sounds ,to me, like you'd better get the fire goin'. Cold room!!
Pepe Ray

waksupi

11-25-2007, 05:10 PM

Ray,that was my first thought, so I built a fire. No change!

woodman51jfk

11-25-2007, 05:45 PM

.........those tubes are like my joints..they take a while to get going in the cold............if the bulbs are dark at the ends,( like a smoky interior ) I'd replace 'em........and if the fixtures are old, heavy iron ballasts that get hot when operating, and typically have plug in starters, I'd replace them with the energy efficient non iron ballast type for t-8 low mercury bulbs..........still be hard to get going in the cold unless you get the preheater starters for really cold weather operation, but they are $$$$$$$

Pepe Ray

11-25-2007, 06:17 PM

I really like my 4 ft' shop lights. Even use them in the house (inexpensive). However, in mid northern Maine ( up near BD's old stompin' grounds), the shops can get a little chilly, so I've taken to installing 150 wt. incandescents right next to them to keep me functional till the shop warms up.
Woodman51jfk; Thanks for the confirmation.
Pepe Ray

woodman51jfk

11-25-2007, 07:20 PM

good idea Pepe..........and much cheaper than the preheater types.....glad to be of service.......

KYCaster

11-25-2007, 08:50 PM

Ric, take off your sunglasses.

Jerry

Buckshot

11-25-2007, 10:43 PM

................I do sincerely thank you all for taking the time to reply to my question, and to those who PM'd. This truly is a great bunch to hang with.

..............Buckshot

garandsrus

11-26-2007, 12:30 AM

Buckshot,

We gotta know.... What did you end up doing?

John

crazy mark

11-26-2007, 12:37 AM

Ray,that was my first thought, so I built a fire. No change!
All ballasts come in a normal temp range and a low temp range.
Normal is above 50 deg f and low temp is usually above 0 deg f. The new t-8 or t-5 ballasts are the way to go. T-8's don't need any real changes and T-5's require some changes. There is also 2 types of ballasts- one that is off and on a lot like in a home and the other is left on for long period of time. That one doesn't like being turned off and on a lot. Mark

drinks

11-26-2007, 01:04 PM

BC, the gfci does not have anything to do with overcurrent protection.
A gfci, not gfi, is designed to trip if the difference in current between the hot and the neutral is as much as .005 amps, 5 mils.
As to installing gfci receptacles in existing wiring, my reference is , NEC, 210, 7 [d], 1990, which is an exception to the code rules requiring a separate grounding conductor, that is, other than the grounded conductor, the neutral.
Also it is permitted to install 2 wire receptacles if they are fed from a gfci.
A gfi is a wholey different thing, it is installed on large services, 1000-1200 amps or more and is designed to prevent the switchgear from burning up if a hot goes to ground, they are usually set to trip at 200-300 amps of fault current.

Buckshot

11-26-2007, 08:00 PM

Buckshot,

We gotta know.... What did you end up doing?

John

...............Done? Well I finished painting, hung the bathroom hardware (towel bars, etc) and then I had Thanksgiving, and then I went to work:-). Got home at 0700 this AM and loaded 50 rounds of 30-06 consisting of 5 loads with the Saeco RG4 for the M1917. Cleaned a M91-30 and cleaned up the reloading bench a little.

Then I measured, cut and installed baseboards, did a bit more painting on cut ins I'd over looked and hung 2 closet doors. Went to BK and had a #2 no tomato, heavy onions & a diet Coke then came back home. Pulled the wifes car out of the driveway and onto the street and backed my car into the driveway (the wife is carpooling). That way I don't have to carry guns across the front yard in the morning when I go to the range.

Put the trash cans out on the street (pickup day tomorrow), took a shower and here I am!

You mean about the GFI? Nada yet. Have to swing by Lowes on the way home from the range tomorrow and pickup one of those testers. I think I'll try hooking the ground to the plumbing since there is a cold water pipe right there and see what happens.

Keep your fingers crossed :-)

...............Buckshot