Dispelling Some Myths-SAAMI Video

[ReloaderFred]

This video was produced primarily for firefighters, but is good information for reloaders as well:

http://youtu.be/3SlOXowwC4c

Hope this helps.

Fred

[cbrick]

Thanks for posting the link. I have a young friend that recently got on the fire dept. and wanted to show this to him, I thought I had this link saved but couldn't find it. :mrgreen:

Rick

[44Vaquero]

It needs to be bumped to the top and made a "Sticky"! The subject is coming up too often with all the new re-loaders.

[VHoward]

This does need to be a sticky.

[ReloaderFred]

I've met with Rick Patterson a couple of times and he's a very knowledgeable guy. He's written some manuals on lead management and ranges in conjunction with Ed Guster III, of EPA, that are full of good advice and common sense. This video is in line with what NSSF and SAAMI do to dispel myths. The more people who see it, the better.

Fred

[Lefty SRH]

Thats a great video, ive seen that before and sent it to my entire family thats constantly concerned about my ammunition somehow miraculously igniting.

Now my question is what will our cans of powder do in a fire, burn or blow?

[shredder]

Ahhh The truth!

The ammo and propellants we use and the systems developed for its use are very very safe. It takes some effort to make any of it dangerous.

I love this video. Wayy too many "reporters" bringing us stories of ammunition in fires with flying projectiles injuring and driving firefighters away and mayhem that simply does not exist. I would without reservation stand with the firefighters in their protective gear and fight an ammo fire at close range. I know the truth.

[ReloaderFred]

Lefty SRH,

My best friend where I used to live is a retired Battalion Chief for the county fire department and avid shooter and reloader. He says cans of powder simply open up from the pressure of the BURNING powder, and there is no explosion. They had done tests at their training facility and proved that it just burns. With today's packaging in plastic containers, there is even less pressure buildup, so it simply burns a little hotter for a few seconds. I've seen powder cans that he retrieved from a fire that had the seam split, but there was no evidence of an explosion. There are some household chemicals that are far more dangerous than a can of gunpowder.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Lefty SRH]

Lefty SRH,

My best friend where I used to live is a retired Battalion Chief for the county fire department and avid shooter and reloader. He says cans of powder simply open up from the pressure of the BURNING powder, and there is no explosion. They had done tests at their training facility and proved that it just burns. With today's packaging in plastic containers, there is even less pressure buildup, so it simply burns a little hotter for a few seconds. I've seen powder cans that he retrieved from a fire that had the seam split, but there was no evidence of an explosion. There are some household chemicals that are far more dangerous than a can of gunpowder.

Hope this helps.

Fred


Thanks, that what i was figuring (and hoped) but considering the shear volume of powder in an eight lb can i was sure wondering.

[Bayou52]

Very informative video on the effects of exposing live ammo to fire, other explosives and crushing weight.

[GrinnnPossum]

Kind'a brings tears to my eyes seeing all the ammunition carnage.

[taptapdown]

Thanks, that what i was figuring (and hoped) but considering the shear volume of powder in an eight lb can i was sure wondering.

It actually doesn't matter how much powder it is, as long as it is in an approved DOT container that is manufactured in a way that if pressure exceeds in the container, the lid pops open and the powder just burns.

now if you take that powder and put it in an airtight container, well that will result in something much worse.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Lefty SRH,
There are some household chemicals that are far more dangerous than a can of gunpowder.

Fred

So there are, especially when it comes to starting a fire. Gasoline and lots of cleaning fluids, thinners etc. will send their vapor out looking for trouble, but powder stays where it is put. And that is just accidental. Whoever heard of an arsonist starting a fire with gunpowder?

General Hatcher experimented extensively along these lines, and found cartridges to be incapable of expelling their bullets dangerously. He describes very large explosions and spontaneous ignition in arsenal stocks of powder. But that involved deterioration and very large quantities in single bins, which are entirely different from the way powder is stored by any shooter or FFI dealer.

[leebuilder]

Unfotunatly there are a lot uninformed peaple out there, and they dictate our proceedures. I have read Hatchers notebook,, facinating read also there was an artical in American Rifleman magazine about fire and loaded ammo. We had to take ordinance awarness classes in school when living in Europe. I have seen ammo in fires 22lr was the worst as far as launching its bullit, and lit off cans of smokless powders honestly nice effect but nothing like a gas fire. Coffee whitener is insanely flammable with the right air mixture. Sugar burns with a vengence!!!
I try to inform peaple but to no positive out come.
With all that said i give black powder a wide berth, smokeless powder not so much. What happens in real life and TV are two very different things, be informed

[300winmag]

Haz-Mat fee's ??????

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The public doesn't have much idea who SAAMI are, and they could call "American Rifleman" biased. But firefighters just want fire safety, and Hatcher was a US major-general, and chief of field service for the ordnance department. That carries weight for anybody who gets accused of reckless endangerment, or in a jurisdiction where a licence to store ammunition has to be argued for.

Although in general very well conducted, there was one way in which the video seems unnecessarily pessimistic. The tester set off the cartridges by whacking a firing-pin with a hammer. In real-life fires it is likely that the powder will ignite before the primer does, and it is far from unknown for the primer to be found never to have ignited at all. This is how I interpret your finding .22 rimfires to come closest to violent ignition (and someone, if memory serves me correctly General Hatcher) found out that they would ignite at the highest temperature, and shotgun shells at the lowest.) With a rimfire, the priming composition is most intimately in contact with the outside.

The video also starts with a warning that a chambered cartridge will react as it would if the trigger were pulled in the normal way. Well it might, and you certainly wouldn't want to count on it not doing so. I can't imagine it ever being as close to harmless as the rounds in the video. But although I don't remember where I heard this, it is highly likely that even a loaded firearm, discharged by heat-to-powder rather than heat-to-primer, will have much less than usual velocity.

[leebuilder]

Hi Ballistics in Scotland. You are right in every aspect. The video is very well done, seeing all that unburnt powder fly around was suprising to me. I am thankful that General Hatcher took and shared his notes. I had a vistor to my place a while back, i had been reloading that day. He looked around and asked about the can of H4831 on my bench and i told him it was gunpowder. He was frightened of it and sat near the snowblower with a full tank of gas, farthest away from the powder. I can recall many instances like that.
I just feel that there more peaple that have it out for firearms, ammo and the peaple the appreciate them, any misinformation does not help.
I like your comment on 22s never thought of it like that.

[ReloaderFred]

A cartridge in the chamber of a rifle, whether fired from a firing pin strike or from heat, will perform the same way in both cases. The primer detonates and causes the powder to burn. Then the pressure builds up and the bullet is pushed from the case mouth and down the barrel. The pressure will be the same whether the powder is set off by heat or primer.

As for the video itself, it was produced for firefighters, to simply explain to them what actually happens when ammunition is exposed to heat and to dispel the rumors that abound in the public arena. I posted it here for the same reasons.

As for SAAMI, I've met the CEO, Rick Patterson, several times, and I'm a life member of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), the parent organization of SAAMI, which is an industry sponsored entity to standardize specifications for common ammunition types and calibers. If there were no standardization, as in times past, there wouldn't be any reloading data for us to use that would be pressure tested and safe.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[cbrick]

:goodpost:

Exactly!

Rick

[Got-R-Did]

I agree that the pressure reached due to external heat source would produce virtually the same as primer actuated ignition if both cartridges are confined within a chamber. I have witnessed this in the form of a "cookoff" in Select Fire crew served weapons and was trained in protocols/immediate actions to stop this phenomenon.
Likewise, I have recovered detonated .22 LR Cases from a fire barrel used to burn off paper targets/backers from our range. The casings bear no evidence of firing pin strikes, but we're ruptured through the side and/or case mouth. The significantly greater mass of the bullet resists movement and the lighter casing typically becomes the projectile. While the aerodynamically inefficient casing has likely a very short "effective" range, I am certain I would not want to stop one.
Just my experiences, YMMV.
Got-R-Did.

[w5pv]

I store my ammo in 50 cal ammo boxes(metal)and wonder if there is a fire would there be be a pressure build up in these cans.They are water proof and I presume vapor proof.

[ReloaderFred]

There would probably be some pressure buildup, but not to the extent of a tremendous explosion. More of a pressure relief/release, since the metal of the can is a fraction the thickness of a chamber.

After all, the military stores their ammunition in those cans, and they have more exposure to fire than the average homeowner.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[1_Ogre]

Yes, there would be a pressure buildup dependent as to how hot the ammo box would get. If it gets hot enough to "COOK OFF" then it would be a good idea not to be close as you will have a nice bomb. Probably the best place to keep ammo stored like this would be in a fireproof safe, as they will keep even documents save with no damage for up to 120min without the fear of them being damaged because they keep the temperature under anything combustionable. All of the safes I've looked at also have warranties for repair/replacement if they are exposed to a "SEVERE" fire. I've seen safes opened after a fire and even the finish on gun stocks were not harmed.
Just my thoughts.

[StratsMan]

I store my ammo in 50 cal ammo boxes(metal)and wonder if there is a fire would there be be a pressure build up in these cans. They are water proof and I presume vapor proof.

I know, this is an old thread.... I don't believe a metal ammo can would present any danger due to a cook off of contents as no significant pressure could build up. The gasket between lid and can would melt or burn away before the ammo in the can could cook off. Even if some pressure did build, that thin wall of mild steel would bow out easily and allow an ever bigger vent. Or the thin steel bales used to hold down the lid might overload and fail, releasing the lid altogether....

[duckear]

Nice video.
Thx

[duckear]

I store my ammo in 50 cal ammo boxes(metal)and wonder if there is a fire would there be be a pressure build up in these cans.They are water proof and I presume vapor proof.

They are purpose built to store ammunition and have been virtually unchanged in 100 years.

That tells me they do their job without much risk.

[john.k]

The most dangerous potential explosive you will commonly see is the small oxygen and acetylene cylinders that many tradesman carry in vehicles.Demolished houses and decapitated bodies are not uncommon.Yet when have you ever heard any one express concern about them.Never,unless it comes from a fireman or cop.The explosions are caused by laziness or carelessness.Cant be bothered turning "the gas "of.

[GregLaROCHE]

Interesting, but it still hurts to see all that good ammunition destroyed.

[ReloaderFred]

Interesting, but it still hurts to see all that good ammunition destroyed.

That's most people's response.

The video was made to dispel some of the myths surrounding the storage of ammunition, and was primarily intended to train firefighting personnel, but it's of interest to anyone involved in the shooting sports. (and some of their spouses, too)

[okietwolf]

Oh Lord the wasted ammunition....please have mercy on those who did not know better.....lol

[smoked turkey]

I know this is an old but very interesting thread which has been brought back to life so to speak for our viewing, education, and/or comment. I also store powder in old ammo cans within a confined locked and secured climate controlled closet. My question is, would it be better to store powder if it were located in say an unheated outdoor shop but within an old chest type freezer. The freezer would not be turned on and the lid would be down but not locked. My question is two fold taking into account first safety, and then protecting the integrity of the powder during storage. So, from a safety point of view, would this be a better alternative to storage in an ammo box within a climate controlled area. Then, from an economic point of view in which I desire the powder storage to not be detrimental to the integrity of the power for future use. In other words can the handloader have his cake and eat it too when it comes to safety and storage of powder by using an inoperable freezer compartment in a non climate controlled space?

[Catch22]

I know this is an old but very interesting thread which has been brought back to life so to speak for our viewing, education, and/or comment. I also store powder in old ammo cans within a confined locked and secured climate controlled closet. My question is, would it be better to store powder if it were located in say an unheated outdoor shop but within an old chest type freezer. The freezer would not be turned on and the lid would be down but not locked. My question is two fold taking into account first safety, and then protecting the integrity of the powder during storage. So, from a safety point of view, would this be a better alternative to storage in an ammo box within a climate controlled area. Then, from an economic point of view in which I desire the powder storage to not be detrimental to the integrity of the power for future use. In other words can the handloader have his cake and eat it too when it comes to safety and storage of powder by using an inoperable freezer compartment in a non climate controlled space?

If you want a specific reference, NFPA 495 Chapter 14 is where I'm getting this and what would address gunpowder, primers, etc.

Quantities not exceeding 20 lbs are permitted to be stored in the original containers in residences.

Quantities exceeding 20 lbs, but not exceeding 50 lbs, can be stored in a residence where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1" nominal thickness (all sides).

I wouldn't store it in a freezer, ammo cans, or anything else that doesn't allow venting in the event the powder could ignite. While unconfined the powder will just burn really fast, once you confine it those gasses build up and cause detonation of whatever it's in.

[AggieEE]

Around here every so often you'll see on the news a house is on fire. If the firemen hear one round cook off they'll back off and let your house burn down. "It's for the safety of our people." I would get arrested cause I'd grab a reel line and go in while calling them cowards.

[ReloaderFred]

This video was made by Rick Patterson with the intent of educating fire departments as to what actually occurs in the event there is a fire and there is stored ammunition. If you know someone who is either a full time fireman, or a volunteer fireman, please provide them with the link to this video. This will benefit us all by doing away with some of the myths surrounding ammunition storage and fires.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: It also wouldn't hurt to have some spouses view it, too....

[smoked turkey]

Catch22 thanks for the info from NFPA. I believe a wooden crate type of storage would be fairly easy to make and that takes care of the safety portion of my question. The proper storage of gun powder requires it to be stored in a cool dry place as well. My shop in the summer is definitely not a cool place, although it is mostly dry, but high humidity would be a factor much of the time. I was hoping to come up with a practical solution for storage that would meet both safety and environmental requirements so as to keep my investment in powder and primers not only safe but protected from temperature and humidity fluctuations. It sounds like a wooden box stored in the home would be considered the best for both conditions.

[Tall]

Very informative. Thank you.

[gnappi]

Good video, thanks.