Does shell holder have to match die brand?

[hawaii five-0]

Do shell holders interchange between brands? For example, can I use a RCBS shell holder with my Lee .300 BLK dies? I have always wondered if the headspace would be effected.

[Alvarez Kelly]

In a word, no. They don't have to match

In another word, yes. You can use an RCBS shell holder with your Lee dies.

[Bullshop Junior]

Im pretty sure shellholders/dies have to be made within certain specs. Ive interchanged shellholder/die brands many times and never noticed a difforance.

[fguffey]

No, shell holders do not have to match manufacturers make and model. A shell holder has a deck height, all of my shell holders have a deck height of .125”.

There are variations, Redding sells competition shell holders in sets of 5. the deck height of the competition shell holders increase in height of .002”, as in .002”, .004”, .006”, .008 and .010. I have one set I gave $5.00 for, it is the #6 belted mag set. It has never been necessary for me to purchase the competition shell holder sets because I accomplish the same task with a feeler gage.

Then there are the shell holders reloaders ground off to reduce the deck height, again, never necessary but that is the reason it is a good ideal to check the deck height of the shell holder.

Then there are exceptions, I have Pacific dies and shell holders from the 50s, Some of the integral rams were off by .008”. I do not have the Pacific die and shell holder as sets, if there was any truth to matching the shell holder to the die it had to start with Pacific. Look alike, my Pacific equipment looks identical to my old RCBS equipment, my old rams with the integral shell holdrs stamped RCBS have a deck height of .125”.

F. Guffey

[Bayou52]

In another word, yes. You can use an RCBS shell holder with your Lee dies.

Question -

Will Lee shellholders fit in the ram of a RCBS RockChucker press?

Bayou52

[fguffey]

Do shell holders interchange between brands? For example, can I use a RCBS shell holder with my Lee .300 BLK dies? I have always wondered if the headspace would be effected.

Head space? I will assume you are referring to the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case. SAAMI does not list 'head space' for the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case, SAAMI only list head space for the chamber from the datum to the bolt face.

And yes, of the deck height of the shell holder is not correct as in .125" it can effect the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case, same for dies that have been modified as in ground off. There are techniques that allow the reloader to determine if the case is full length sized before the ram is lowered.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Question -

Will Lee shellholders fit in the ram of a RCBS RockChucker press?

Bayou52

RCBS list their shell holders as universal. I check the deck high, when forming cases there are advantages and disadvantages when forming cases for short chambers.

F. Guffey

[seaboltm]

It don't matter, but there are slight variations. For example, I use an RCBS hand priming tool. Lee shell holders are noticeably tighter and harder to put into place in that unit than RCBS shell holders. But they both work.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

for the most part they dont matter,
On my Argentine brass that I make from 30-06 brass, there is ( or used to be)
a specific shell holder listed for that. I modified one to make it work.

[fguffey]

It don't matter, but there are slight variations. For example, I use an RCBS hand priming tool. Lee shell holders are noticeably tighter and harder to put into place in that unit than RCBS shell holders. But they both work.

I have RCBS shell holders that will not fit the RCBS auto hand primer, I have three different sets of RCBS shell holders. RCBS offered to exchange my shell holders for the latest design, I choose to cut a tapper in the bottom of the old ones, the oldest design does not have a tapper, the next design had a slight taper and the newer ones are tapered.

F. Guffey

[ReloaderFred]

Shellholders are almost all made to fit the slots in most modern day rams. In the past there have been specialty shellholders for certain brands, such as Hollywood, Herters, etc., but today they are made within industry parameters, which simply means there is a mean specification and the resulting product can be + or - of that specification and still be called "standard". There are still a couple of shellholders that are brand specific, such as the Lee priming tool, though.

With that said, there are small differences in shellholders, often times within the same brand. It depends on how new, or worn, the cutting tool was for that particular shellholder. I've got most every brand of shellholder made within the past 50 years, and some older than that, and there are differences. I also purposely have multiple shellholders for every caliber I load, which at the present time is 31 calibers. I've got some that if I change the shellholder I set up the sizing die with for a particular rifle caliber, it will change the setback of the shoulder and affect not only the case to chamber fit, but case life as well.

In one case, for the 357 Sig caliber, I had no 10mm/40 shellholders that would allow the case to be sized enough to set the shoulder back enough to chamber in either of my pistols in that caliber. Rather than send the sizers back to the manufacturers, since I have three in that caliber, including the carbide die from Dillon (the others are RCBS and Redding), I simply milled off a few thousandths from the top surface of one of my 10mm/.40 shellholders and dedicated it to 357 Sig loading. There was no way on earth I was going to mangle up three sizing dies when I could simply mill a cheap shellholder and go on my merry way loading 357 Sig rounds.

The bottom line is there are small differences, which sometimes can cause large problems. It's caused by tolerance stack, which simply means that one tool can be made at the minimum specification, while the matching tool can be made at the maximum specification, or vice versa. The resulting differences can be quite large when precision loading. Generally, though, they are interchangeable.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[bhn22]

Odd man out here. I always match my shellholders to the dies on rifle cartridges. I once had a headspace issue with a Lee shellholder and Hornady dies. I don't care about handgun calibers, and have never had an issue with them.

[1hole]

Interchangable 'snap in' shell holders have been the norm since the early sixties but even before that the 'working' dimensions of dies and shell holders were standardized.

Dies, shell holders and chambers all have a range of tolerances that are quite small but real.

A knowledgable reloader adjusts his sizing die to make bottle neck ammo that correctly fits his specific chamber. If he does that any small tolerance variations won't matter at all, if he doesn't do that his fit is pure chance ... and that may make useable ammo but not really good for accuracy or case life.

[Mike Kerr]

Nah! The various brands may have minute tolerances and dimensions but usually not enough to matter.

[engineer401]

They can be interchangeable. When I've used Lee shell holders with RCBS dies I need to verify rifle cases were sized appropriately with a case gauge. When using RCBS dies and shell holders per instructions, I don't need to (but still do).

[SODAPOPMG]

I had an issue using a lyman shellholder and a set or RCBS .223 dies that the headspace was just a tad tight as i had to use the forward assist on my AR to get the round chambered
tolerance issues between different companies will be more extreme than between parts from the same company
i just ground the top of the shellholder off a little bit and anymore i buy a cartridge headspace gage to check my ammo as more than a few dies that i have will a bit on the short side or the long side with the gage i can measure then adjust the dies as needed

[fguffey]

I had an issue using a lyman shellholder and a set or RCBS .223 dies that the headspace was just a tad tight as i had to use the forward assist on my AR to get the round chambered
tolerance issues between different companies will be more extreme than between parts from the same company
i just ground the top of the shellholder off a little bit and anymore i buy a cartridge headspace gage to check my ammo as more than a few dies that i have will a bit on the short side or the long side with the gage i can measure then adjust the dies as needed

you measured the deck height of the Lyman shell holder? After measuring the deck height of the Lyman shell holder you found the deck height was ??? .125"? All of my RCBS shell holders have a deck height of .125" all of my Lyman shell holders have a deck height of .125", all of My Herter shell holders have a deck height of .125".

Question: If the deck height is the same between two shell holders how can the length of the case be different from the shoulder/datum to the case head of the case be different.

F. Guffey

[BK7saum]

If the differences are in the snap in bottom portion of the shellholder and you don't have the die set up to cam over you could easily have cartridges that are too long to chamber.

[ReloaderFred]

There is more than one measurement to a shellholder. There is also the shoulder distance from the bottom of the holder, where it contacts the ram, to the bottom of the shell slot to consider. And like I mentioned before, there is the tolerance stack to consider.

Mr. Guffey gets indigestion when anyone mentions modifying a shellholder in any way. We've had this discussion on THR a few times, but he doesn't work at your, or my, bench, and we don't work at his. If it takes modifying a shellholder to make things right at YOUR BENCH, then so be it. I'll be the last one to tell you how you MUST DO IT at YOUR bench, and I mostly ignore someone who tells me I'm wrong at my bench, when I've been doing it successfully for over 50 years, and have the trophies to prove it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[BK7saum]

I once had to remove 0.027" off the bottom of a fl sizer to get enough shoulder bump to chamber.

It was a 7mm Remington short action ultra mag die from a company that produces good products.

I suspect they just ran the reamer in a little deep. I took a few thou off at a time until it would bump the shoulder back.

[fguffey]

[QUOTE=ReloaderFred;2515534]There is more than one measurement to a shellholder. There is also the shoulder distance from the bottom of the holder, where it contacts the ram, to the bottom of the shell slot to consider. And like I mentioned before, there is the tolerance stack to consider.

Mr. Guffey gets indigestion when anyone mentions modifying a shellholder in any way.

Hope this helps.

Fred "There is also the shoulder distance from the bottom of the holder, where it contacts the ram, to the bottom of the shell slot to consider" ReloadingFred, explain to me how that measurement has any effect when sizing a case. The ability of the die and shell holder to return a case to minimum length is determined by the distance from the deck of the shell holder and shoulder of the die. Then there is the presses ability to overcome the resistance of the case to be sized.

All of my presses have threads, all of my dies have threads, I adjust the die to the shell holder, or I adjust the die off the shell holder, I also adjust the die to the shell holder to size cases for short chambers without grinding the top of shell holder or the bottom of the die.

F. Guffey

[BK7saum]

I was referring to the interchangeability of shellholders at random. If die is not set up to the individual shellholder then the case may not be sized the same.

I agree that you should be able to adjust any brand die to shellholder unless there was a manufacturing problem as with my 7mm die.

[fguffey]

If the differences are in the snap in bottom portion of the shellholder and you don't have the die set up to cam over you could easily have cartridges that are too long to chamber.

BKsaum, I have 7 Herter presses, all of my Herter presses cam over, I have instructions from RCBS from the late 50s, the instructions include adjusting dies for a cam over press, the same instructions describe methods and techniques for adjusting a press that does not cam over, I have 4 Rock Chuckers, none of my Rock Chuckers cam over. The last RCBS press I used that would cam over was the A2.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

I was referring to the interchangeability of shellholders at random. If die is not set up to the individual shellholder then the case may not be sized the same.

I agree that you should be able to adjust any brand die to shellholder unless there was a manufacturing problem as with my 7mm die.

BKsaum, All the shell holder can do is have a deck height of .125", all the reloader can do when determining if the case was returned to minimum length when sized is measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die, after sizing the case should have a case head protrusion from the die of .125". If the case head protrusion from the die is greater than .125" the case did not get sized as in full length or returned to minimum length. Then there is the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

F. Guffey

[Char-Gar]

Most often, any brand of shell holder will give a case with a proper headspace with any brand of die.

But "most often" is not always and as Shakespeare said: "Ay there is the rub!". I have had both dies and shell holders out of spec. Not often, but often enough for me to own Wilson cartridge headspace gages in all rimless bottle neck rounds I load. Everytime I set up the press, I check the headspace on a sized round with the gage before I run a batch.

Most folks do not do this, but I was taught to do this by my mentor in 1958 and have continued with the practice. I have been surprised by funky headspace enough times to keep on doing it.

These gages have multiple uses;

1. They tell you if a sized case has proper headspace or not.

2. They tell you if the case needs to be trimmed or not.

3. Size a fired case enough to go into the gage, but not enough to touch the shoulder and you can tell if your chamber headspace is within spec.

[fguffey]

"The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary"

The luxury of disagreeing is denied, well, that is not completely true, I can disagree, problem, more times than not the person I disagree with rolls off on a tangent.

The 1955 instructions that came with the Wilson case gage suggested using a pocket rule as a straight edge. That was 55 plus year ago, the reloading public has never warmed up to the ideal the Wilson case gage is a precision gage. The Wilson case gage is referred to as being a drop-in gage that is to be used with the thumb nail. I use a feeler gage with a straight edge or I use a lay out/set up table or anything with a flat surface, I stand the case on the flat surface then place the case gage on the case and measure the gap between the table surface and case gage. All readings are in thousandths.

Comparator: I start by measuring the length of the case from the shoulder datum to the head of the case, after firing I measure again, the difference in length between the fired case and the case before firing indicates the effect the chamber had on the case when fired.

You are correct, the case has more than one length, there is case length as in maximum and trim to, there is the length of the case from the datum to the head of the case and the length of the neck from the datum to the case mouth. Never discussed but where is the datum?

Everyone believes they discovered it 'DATUMS', that does not explain the datum in the Wilson caser gage, the datum in the Wilson case gage has a radius, when I make a datum I cut it without a radius, I cut it with a 90 degree sharp edge because datum means measured from.

Then there is SAAMI, no where can I find where SAAMI 'says' the case has head space, back to Wilson case gages, all of my Wilson case gages are stamped case gage, not one of them is stamped 'head space gage'. Then there are comparators that are referred to as being 'head space gages' when the comparator measures a case it is measuring the length of the case. I am the fan of transfers and standards, I use transfers to move the dimensions of the chamber to the die or comparator. And I make head space gages.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf

The chamber has a symbol for head space, the symbol is missing on the case. The case has length, from the datum to the case head, from the datum to the case mouth and when the two measurements are added like A + B = C.

F. Guffey

[Char-Gar]

Mr. Guffy

No tangent here. I just stated the Wilson gauges and it's multiple uses. I will stand by the statements. If you or anybody else has method that works for them and they feel it better for their uses, then have at it. I am not an acolyte of L.E. Wilson or their products.

My response was to the OP and not to any other post. I didn't read any of the others posts, I just submitted a reply.

I have had all the "battle of opinions" on this site I want for one lifetime. That is the purpose of the disclaimer at the bottom of each of my posts.

I don't know my datum from a hole in the ground, so I will leave the numbers and tech talk to those who think that lingo is important. But, if you try to take my lunch money, you will have a fight on your hands.

[Alvarez Kelly]

And yet another for the ignore list. Wow.

[felix]

Does-shell-holder-have-to-match-die-brand? NO. Leaving out the term "brand", then YES! The shell-holder-has-to-match-the-die-base EXACTLY. But then, this latter statement is only true when the shell holder has enough clearance in the ram to positively mate with the die when both are held in contact with one another DURING the COMPLETE sizing operation. Again, another but..even further, if you will. The only time I want this occurrence to happen is when I am sizing cases which are too long in body (or rim) to allow the gun action to close completely with no tolerance, or with perhaps with a very, very small amount of tolerance. Rule: always order a matching set when ordering dies to match your heavily fired cases with the boolit seated. ... felix

[fguffey]

Char Gar, Forgive, I thought your qualifying statement was a a good statement for someone with an open mind. It was not my intentions to upset and or alienate you in any way.

F. Guffey

[Char-Gar]

Char Gar, Forgive, I thought your qualifying statement was a a good statement for someone with an open mind. It was not my intentions to upset and or alienate you in any way.

F. Guffey

There is nothing to forgive. I am neither upset nor alienated. Folks are who folks are and they do what they do. At age 71, I have learned that much, their datum not withstanding. :-)

[exile]

Interesting thread. I just paid $11 for a Redding #1 shell holder to match my newly purchased redding .308 dies. Wasn't sure I needed to, but it was there staring me in the face, so I did. Anytime I can avoid shipping charges and patronize a local business I am happy. I won't call it a gunshop, more of a sporting goods store, but anyway...

exile

[fguffey]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479187/redding-shellholder-1-308-winchester-30-06-springfield-45-acp

exile, if you did not have a shell holder for the 308 W the shell holder was necessary.

I have hand primers that require a shell holder, I have case trimmers that require a shell holder, I find it convenient to place a shell holder in the box with the dies, I am not saying a reloader can not have enough shell holders, I do find it inconvenient to have one and for so many uses.

The Lee hand auto primer uses dedicated shell holders, in the beginning the Lee shell holders were not expensive, 9 would cost as much as 2 RCBS shell holders.

RCBS has been making shell holders for 55+ years, they have changed the design, the first design was flat on the bottom, then a bevel was added. The bevel was added because of the addition of a press mounted primer system, after the addition of the small bevel they went the large bevel because of the RCBS AUTO hand primer system.

F. Guffey

[edadmartin]

I just found this out while setting up. the hornaday 45 acp shellholder will work in my lee turret but there is a definite deck height difference compared to the lee holder.