Crimping 38 special

[John Hill]

I am confused about how much to crimp my 38 special cases using 158 grain lead semi wad cutter bullets. The SAAMI charts of the specs do not address this question. Since I flare the cases just enough to start the bullet, do I use the crimping die to just close or "tighten the flared area till it just fits nicely in my revolver cylinder or do I want to actually roll it inward some? I wrinkled half a box of rounds by having the crimping die adjusted too low. Any advice is appreciated.
thanks
John

[Riverpigusmc]

I use the Lee FCD to roll crimp in the crimp groove

[ReloaderFred]

You want a good roll crimp to keep the bullets from working out under recoil, though that's rarely a problem with the mid to lower range loads in .38 Special. Ignore the OAL listed for the caliber and just roll the crimp into the crimping groove. You shouldn't be wrinkling cases in .38 Special, as the crimping process is pretty straight forward.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[seaboltm]

if the cases are wrinkling my guess is you have the die screwed in too far, too much crimp if you will. I almost always use a Lee FCD if I just have to have a crimp.

[ReloaderFred]

You'll also get the best results by seating and crimping in separate operations. I don't like to start the crimp while the bullet is still being seated.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[rockshooter]

With me, it depends on the load. A light 148 HBWC load gets a light taper crimp. I heavier 158 SWC load from a 2" bbl needs a heavier roll crimp to keep things stable.
Loren

[jsheyn]

All my 38 spl get a roll crimp just so it visually crimped. I’d revisiting the seating/crimp die adjustment procedure.

[John Hill]

Think that my problem was not having the bullet seated to where the rim could be roll crimped into the groove. Instead, I was crimping into the side of the lead bullet very, very close to the actual grove.

Now to really straighten me out, when seating the bullet, do you seat until the brass is level with the top of the groove and then crimp into the groove or do you seat to maybe where the top of the brass is level with the center of the groove and then crimp?

Another thing that I found was that my brass was of different lengths, all within the maximum length. To be able to set my die for all, I plan on trimming all brass to the same length. I was going for a constant OAL. Big mistake. Duh.
Thanks
John

[wistlepig1]

One thing I do after I get the crimp I want, I make a dummy round ( no powder/primer ) for the bullits I use. Then when I go from one to the other I use it to get real close to what I did the last time. Cuts down on the adjustment time for me and maybe help you. My2cents

[ReloaderFred]

You can crimp into the side of the bullet without a problem, as long as you're loading cast bullets. You can also trim your .38 brass, but that's something I've never done, and never will. My wife and I shoot between 8,000 and 10,000 rounds of .38 Special in SASS per year, and there is no way on this green earth that I'll ever get involved in trimming that amount of brass.

The .38's that I load are loaded to 1.480", so they'll feed through our Marlin rifles, in addition to firing through our four revolvers. With this length, the crimping groove is outside the case on both the bullets we use, so I'm crimping into the bearing surface of the bullet. I've never buckled a case, and like I said, I load thousands of them each year.

Back off your crimp die until it's just touching the case mouth, after the bullets are seated. Then turn down the die in very small increments until you get the crimp you want, without buckling the case wall.

When you are crimping into the crimp groove, then it's best to seat the bullet to near the top of the groove and then roll the crimp into the groove. You won't have to trim the brass to do this, even though there will be a small variation in case lengths. Before you take on the task of trimming .38 brass, do an experiment and shoot some untrimmed brass versus trimmed brass for accuracy at whatever distance you normally shoot at and see if you can tell the difference. I highly doubt you will. Many years ago, when I was actively shooting PPC matches on our department pistol team, I was routinely shooting about 1,500 rounds of .38's a week in practice and matches, with most of the practice being done at the 50 yard line. I could pretty much hold the 10-ring at 50 yards, and none of that brass was ever trimmed......

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Char-Gar]

1. Put an empty case in your shell holder and raise it to thr maximum height.
2. Screw the seating die down onto the case until it stops. Don't horse it down for the crimp ring is now is in contact with the case mouth.
3. Place a charged case with a started bullet in the case mouth and seat the bullet down until the case mouth is located at the upper end of the crimp groove but not above it.
4. Back the seating screw off a half dozen turns.
5. With the round lowered turn the die down about 1/8 turn and raise the round to crimp. The crimp should be turned into the groove just dar enlighten so your finger nail does not catch on the case mouth. Adjust if necessary.
6.lock the die ring and turn the seating screw down to contact the seated and crimped round.

You are now good to go.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'll second the statement that there's no need to trim 38 Special brass. I've never seen a need to trim straight walled pistol cases.
I always crimp cartridges in a separate operation from the bullet seating operation. Just seems to work better for me.
Some folks like to combine the seating crimping process. Char-Gar provided an excellent description of how to use a combined seating/crimping die in the previous post.
With wadcutters, only a slight taper crimp over the bullet is needed. With SWC, I just use a roll crimp in the crimping groove as a guide, unless there's some type of OAL issue.
The bottom line is you need just enough crimp to keep the bullet from pulling out of the case in recoil. Heavy bullets with heavy charges fired in light revolvers are the worst offenders. Most of the time just enough crimp to keep the case mouth from catching on the chamber edge is more than enough to hold the bullet securely.

[ReloaderFred]

I do put a pretty hefty roll crimp on my .38's, but that's because they may also be run through a Marlin rifle, and the combination of the magazine spring tension, combined with recoil, may compress the round and shove the bullet inside the case. Collapsed rounds won't feed from a magazine tube on a lever action rifle.

My rounds are generally loaded for use in both rifle and revolver. In the revolver the crimp is to keep the bullets from walking out of the case under recoil, but in a rifle it's just the opposite, so you have to prevent both push and pull.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[HATCH]

Setting proper crimp is easy with most Roll crimp dies.
Take a unloaded case that has just been sized but had NO other stuff done.

Adjust the crimp die up so it doesn't touch the brass at all.
Pull the arm down and hold it.
Now adjust the crimp die until it touches the brass.
Then adjust a 1/2 turn more and check it.
You should see a little roll in the edge of the brass.
If you see a mark in the brass then you have too much crimp.

Thats how I setup all my dies.
I can set up a new die set in about 10 mins or so. Longer in the Dillon 650 compared to the 550 but still not that long.

[Certaindeaf]

Lot of excellent advice here.
Remember, it's exceedingly hard to unbuckle a case.. go slow and careful.. and think about what you are doing.. and you'll never buckle another case. knock on wood

[Char-Gar]

Whether to seat and crimp in one operation or two is a matter often in discussion, with folks taking positions on both sides. The answer is "it depends".

The purpose of using a separate seating crimping die is to prevent the case mouth from shaving alloy or digging into the bullet as the bullet moves down a smidge in the crimp process.

If there is a crimp groove on the bullets and the crimp is placed there, there is no chance for the case mouth to shave alloy from the bullets, so a combination seat and crimp die works just as good as any.

If there is no crimp groove on the bullet, then seating and crimping in two different operations is the way to go.

So, you see, it depends.

[Char-Gar]

Do straight wall handgun cases need to be trimmed? Again the answer is "it depends".

Providing you have a good bullets of proper temper, with a decent lube, over an accurate charge of the right powder, then the difference between larger and small groups of the same load is uniformity/sameness.

To have a uniform crimp, you need to have cases of uniform length with square case mouths. Therefore trimmed cases will produce smaller groups/more accuracy than untrimmed cases, all things being equal.

The next question is, do you need or will you notice the extra smidge of accuracy given by uniform trimmed cases? Well the answer is..it depends.

[r1kk1]

I guess I'm the only one who taper crimps or use no crimp depending on the application. I use a chronograph when load developing and noticed that crimp and bullet pull have a tremoundous effect on ES and velocity.

Two tools I would like to pick up in the future for load testing. A Consistent crimp tool and a Ransom rest. I have a Contender barrel in 38 special.

So many variables.

Take care

r1kk1

[Certaindeaf]

For a single shot not using slow powders, a crimp isn't necessary.
If you're using slow powders, and or using heavy loads in a revolver, especially a light one, a crimp is necessary for proper burn and so that bullets don't "walk" out, tying up the gun.

[r1kk1]

For a single shot not using slow powders, a crimp isn't necessary.
If you're using slow powders, and or using heavy loads in a revolver, especially a light one, a crimp is necessary for proper burn and so that bullets don't "walk" out, tying up the gun.

Yes I agree but I also shoot a necked down 475 Linebaugh. Case tension where the bullet is seated is as it appears necessary. Dave at CH4D has used taper crimping in numerous cartridges including 44 mag. I have one in that caliber and so far with 110 powder it works very well in my Dan Wesson. The same for the 38/357 in another Dan Wesson.

Like I said earlier, the type of crimp or no crimp depends on the action. I think bullet pull is overlooked.

So many variables. I really like reading posts about accuracy work on the 38 and wadcutter guns.

Take care

r1kk1

[Char-Gar]

It is important to remember the OP was about crimping 38 Special rounds. That means either a revolver or a target auto like the Smith and Wesson 52.

All of my comments have been directed that way and not to crimping in general. Nothing wrong with "thread drift" as long as folks don't get confused by the meandering.

[357shooter]

My 38 special and non-magnum 357 loads all get the same roll crimp, including wadcutters. Usually into the crimp groove, but it doesn't have to be. My setup process is very repeatable:

I start with a fired case and size it
With the sized case in the crimp station I raise the ram and add crimp until is hits the case
Back the ram out and add 3/4 turn
Done

For 357 magnum load I add 1/4 turn. It's been working for me for years, giving excellent accuracy. I've never had good results by not crimping or using a taper crimp.

[Certaindeaf]

It is important to remember the OP was about crimping 38 Special rounds. That means either a revolver or a target auto like the Smith and Wesson 52.

All of my comments have been directed that way and not to crimping in general. Nothing wrong with "thread drift" as long as folks don't get confused by the meandering.
From post #1:
"I am confused about how much to crimp my 38 special cases using 158 grain lead semi wad cutter bullets..".

The model 52 only takes wadcutters.. let's not confuse the fella.

[Char-Gar]

From post #1:
"I am confused about how much to crimp my 38 special cases using 158 grain lead semi wad cutter bullets..".

The model 52 only takes wadcutters.. let's not confuse the fella.

The Smith and Wesson 52 presents no special crimp issues. The case mouth is roll crimped over the top end of the wadcutter bullet. There should be no confusion, but you are just trying to be cute, right?

[Certaindeaf]

The Smith and Wesson 52 presents no special crimp issues. The case mouth is roll crimped over the top end of the wadcutter bullet. There should be no confusion, but you are just trying to be cute, right?
No need to get uppity.. you're the one not wanting thread drift and you throw out the model 52.. he's wondering about SWC's, not WC's.

[John Hill]

I am the original OP. I have learned a lot here. One new thing that I don't completely understand is since I am using a new Lee carbide three die set, will that particular seating/crimp die give me a taper or roll crimp?
thanks
john

[Char-Gar]

I am the original OP. I have learned a lot here. One new thing that I don't completely understand is since I am using a new Lee carbide three die set, will that particular seating/crimp die give me a taper or roll crimp?
thanks
john

The Lee standard 3 die set comes with a seating die that also roll crimps. You can get a deluxe 4 die set that also includes their Factory Crimp Die. The latter is a different critter and some folks report it is problematic with cast bullets. I don't use Lee dies, so I have no personal experience with that die.

[Bazoo]

Being new to loading myself, and having only loaded 38's and 357's, I've learned that what you think is not enough crimp is usually enough. I started with too much and crinkled the cases. Study some factory founds and try to duplicate that crimp. Then if you want more, turn your die in just a tad if you get into hotter loads, or into 357 magnums.

[357shooter]

I am the original OP. I have learned a lot here. One new thing that I don't completely understand is since I am using a new Lee carbide three die set, will that particular seating/crimp die give me a taper or roll crimp?
thanks
john

To make the loading process easier, I've often ordered a seating die body from Lee (very inexpensive) and used it in station 4 to crimp. Just back out the seating die in 3 so it doesn't crimp, per the instructions from Lee.