38/357 Keith

[Charlie Horse]

I fired up my new mould today. To be honest, the results were so-so. The main problem I had was the boolits were sticking badly in the cavities. It took quite a bit of tapping to get all 6 cavities to clear.
Let me back up. I cleaned the mould with naptha while the pot heated up. Then I smoked the cavities first with a bic lighter, then with a sliver off a 2x4 (since I was fresh out of wooden matches). Then I treated the mould with Bullplate, according to package directions.
The only thing I can think of that I could have done differently would have been to clean the mould with soap and water after the naptha treatment.
Anyway, I quit after casting about 200 boolits. I figured I couldn't be doing that mould any good with all that tapping.

Anyone have any suggestions?

[Rick N Bama]

Mine is sticking some as well although I don't think it's as bad as what you have described. Maybe it's the very generous lube groove?

OTOH, my 434-210RF has them jumping out with just a tap.

Rick

[454PB]

It's possible the naptha left an oily film, try using some Gunscrubber or even brake cleaner. I doubt that the naptha caused the sticking boolits, but it could cause some surface blemishes.

[lathesmith]

Take a look at this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22194

It sure made my life a lot easier. I was having the same problem, although it was a different mold. Strangely, my 175 Keith 6-holer was releasing fine, right from the start. But I wouldn't hesitate to lap it if it needed it.
lathesmith

[Charlie Horse]

Yea, after I posted I read the thread on lapping. I just came up from the basement where I drilled and screwed my laps. Tomorrow I'll bring my boltcutters home from work so I can clip the heads from the #8 woodscrews.

[lathesmith]

I used a square-drive screw; I didn't even need to clip the head off the screw. A phillips would probably work about as well. I just used my cordless HF drill. It works!
lathesmith

[mtgrs737]

Make sure you use a new lapping boolit for each cavity and try to turn it both directions so that it will knock off burrs on both sides of the parting line. You may have to use some 5 minute epoxy to keep the screw from backing out in reverse. You will be amazed! Good luck!

[Charlie Horse]

Is Zud too abrasive to use as a lapping compound? It is similar to Comet.

[rockrat]

Used some B-12 Chemtool to degrease and NEI mould prep on sprue plate, cavities, pins and top of mould. Once I got it to temperature, no problem with boolits releasing. Only drawback to the mould I can tell so far is the nose next to the meplat. None of them are uniform. Has kind of a semi circular wrinkle on all of the boolits from each cavity. Haven't had time to see how it shoots yet.

[Bret4207]

Read up on Leementing. Some of my 6 bangers work without treatment, others require major surgery. Thats just the way it goes.

[tommag]

I opened my .357 Keith GB today and took the magnifying glass to it. The only burrs I could see were very small and the ink-eraser made them much smaller.

I was amazed at the appearance of this mold. The thick sprue-plate and the mating pins were not what I expected on a Lee. I thought this one would be very good out of the box.

I had a hell of a time getting the boolits to release. I cast 100 or so and culled them for the nicest ones to use for lapping. When I went to use my cordless screw driver to lap, the danged thing was dead! Hopefully a little later today or tommorow, I'll get the thing smoothed out a bit.

[GLL]

I have two of the original 6-cavity Catshooter runs of this mould. Both drop all six bullets without any problems. In fact half of the time perfect bullets fall out without a tap.

I am curious if the specs on GB #2 are identical to GB #1 !

Jerry

The bullet in the center from my mould and the drawing are CAT's GB #1 45 2.1 design

http://www.fototime.com/10E7D767428827C/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/B581C1AD7E6A22C/standard.jpg

[crabo]

You can use a 1/8 drill bit to center drill your boolits through the sprue hole. Flip your sprue plate out of the way and then take a short 1/4" hex head self tapping screw and run it down. You don't have to cut the screws off and just use you 1/4 driver for your cordless drill.

Crabo

[garandsrus]

Jerry,

The specs for buy #2 were the same as #1 as the same drawing was sent to Lee for both. Lee did cut #2 a little smaller per the test mold I cast with, but it is actually closer to what was spec'd than the first one.

Both of my 38/357 Keith molds (one from each buy) release the boolits with minimal effort...

John

[Rafe Covington]

What weight bullets are thease Keith bullets.:drinks:

[PatMarlin]

Mine drop well from the first GB. I scrub and boil them in Dawn right when they come out of the box.

[denul]

I don't suppose I had followed this group buy closely enough, when it was organized, but I found my bullets able to just barely fit in the cylinders of a Smith model 27, and a Ruger 357 commemorative model. The Lyman/Keith #358429 is excessively long for both of those particular revolvers, but this 38/357 Keith fits each of them, when properly crimped in the groove.
Please overlook this post if all of this information has been put on before. I still really do not know the all of the rules and regulations, let alone the subtle points, of this WebSite. I had more difficulty than some of the individuals here, and less than others, in getting the bullets to drop . I did not see where anyone had posted results from actually firing these bullets, so I thought I would post the my results.
These were cast of. 50-50 WW & Linotype, of old and uncertain character. BHN was about 15. I sized these .358, using LBT lube, and loaded them in new Starline.357 brass. Over 14.3 grains of 820, these are running from 1150 fps to 1250 fps, depending on barrel length, in my .357 revolvers. All of them are showing quite low variations and standard deviations . In addition to the two revolvers mentioned above, I used a 6 in. Smith and Wesson model 66, and a 4 in. Ruger Security Six, to make 6 shot groups from each of the revolvers of less than 2.5 inches at 25 yards. This was standing with two hands, without a rest. This is about as good as I am able to do at any time, and the performance in each of the revolvers was most satisfactory.
There was very slight powder residue in each barrel after about 50 rounds each was fired, but I could detect no leading, and the residue brushed away freely. In the Ruger commemorative, I loaded an additional 10 rounds with a small amount of used walnut tumbling media, as a case filler, over the above mentioned 14.3 grains of 820. Velocity rose by about 80 fps, from 1140 to 1220; and that eliminated the unburned residue. The velocity variations remained unchanged as well. I prefer walnut hulls, to corn cob media, for this, because the latter smells like burned popcorn after every shot.
All of these months, I had been expecting these bullets to be too long for half of my.357 revolvers, and it is a most pleasant surprise to find that I was wrong about that. I would like to ask the designers if they had the shorter cylinders in mind, when they designed this bullet; I do not know how to retrieve the older threads that might indicate what all went into the design process. In any event, I am very grateful to all concerned.

[Catshooter]

denul,

I did not see your post until today or I would have responded earlier.

The original 1930s design of this boolit did not take longer cylinders or the .357 magnum cartridge into consideration as it pre-dated both. Ellmer Keith designed it for the .38 spl.

What I was trying for was as close to his original design as I could get. Thus, short cylinders need the case crimped either in the first band or over the leading edge of the first band.

I find that with my Lee Factory Crimp die I can crimp about half way into the front band, and it works well.

I was a little disapointed that I could only get about 1420 fps from my eight and three eighths 27, but then I recalled that they weigh nearly 180 grains, so I felt better.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you like yours.


Cat

[AKtinman]

I finally used this mold last week, and it worked quite well, with most of the bullets dropping free as the mold was opened. Boolits cast from W-W were very nice looking. The mold was a pleasure to use.

Sized them to .358 in the Star with LBT Blue and loaded them in .38 Special brass over 5.0 gr Unique.

The trip to the range today was a real eye-opener. I was just able to keep them on the 8x10 target at 25 yards. Groups were fired from a 5" pre-27 and a 38/44 Outdoorsman. 160 gr LBT FN cast at the same time and loaded as above made nice, round groups as did 150 gr commercial cast bullets loaded over 2.8 gr Bullseye.

This was not the result I was expecting from this boolit, so looks like some experimentation is in order. Does anyone have any accurate loads to recommend for this boolit?

[shooting on a shoestring]

I've been working with mine and haven't come up with any results that satisfy me yet. Partly, I started working with it in a .357 snubby that seems to dislike it, partly b/c I started shooting a new S.S. Blackhawk and have been dealing with some leading issues in general with that gun. I do have a half dozen or so loadings sitting on the shelf that just might get released from captivity this weekend. If so, I'll post the results even if I don't like them.

So far I really do like the momentum that 175 slug packs. That throws my dueling tree and clangs around with a very satisfying salute of authority.

[lathesmith]

I have loaded some of these in .357 brass using 3.2 grains of Bullseye for a light plinker load, and so far results for me have been excellent. Especially in my T/C 357 carbine, this combo is literally a (small) one-holer. It is a hair too long at the moment to fit the cylinder of my Taurus 607, but I think I will play with the factory crimp die as Catshooter suggested and try shortening it just a little, and then give it another whirl in this gun.
lathesmith

[denul]

In my 6 in. model 27-2, which has a short cylinder, I am able to crimp in the groove, using full-length Starline 357 brass, rather than over the front driving band, which I had not expected. I have recently increased my charges of 820 surplus powder, to 15.0 grains, and have noticed an improvement in accuracy, as well as less powder residue. These are cast of a Linotype/wheelweight mixture, air cooled, then sized to.358, with LBT lube applied in a heated Star sizer. I don't have an LBT .357 mold, but the Lee 160 round flat nose appears to do very well in the same gun.

I will try some 38 special loads, in the same gun, and report back to you about the results. You might try and see if you can get any results with.357 brass; it is really close on my cylinder, and they may not fit in another gun. I just ran out the daylight, putting about 100 of the above loads through the model 27. No leading issues at all, so far.


By the way, I had a very interesting experience with this mold. I dropped my first one, and was fortunately able to replace it from a group buy auction. I sent the damaged mold back to Lee, after calling them and explaining that I had damaged it, and I did not expect any warranty coverage.. The gentleman who answered the phone told me that they would fix it, but I put a $20 bill in the box, just for handling and so forth.I was afraid that the damage was too great to allow the repair.After about a month, I received the mold, which had been replaced, rather than repaired. They also returned part of my money, which I believe was much more than fair treatment.
I own several LBT molds, and agree with the posts elsewhere that they are some of the finest. Veral made 2 very different designs for me last year, and had them at my house within two weeks of receiving his money. He gives excellent high-end service. But there is also a place in this world of casting for the Lee low-priced operations. This.357 mold did not have to be replaced, and they certainly could have kept all of my money. Veral will not make a 6 cavity mold, and I don't blame him; he has his own good reasons. Lee will, and if I need one for high-volume production, I can get it.

[Lucky Joe]

[QUOTE=AKtinman;This was not the result I was expecting from this boolit, so looks like some experimentation is in order. Does anyone have any accurate loads to recommend for this boolit?[/QUOTE]

I have scanned a couple of pages from my Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook year 1973 which talk about the 358429 bullet and has some loading info. If anyone would like a copy I can email them or if someone could tell me how to post it here perhaps that would be better. When I try it tells me my attachment is too large. It's a pdf. format.

[AKtinman]

I have scanned a couple of pages from my Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook year 1973 which talk about the 358429 bullet and has some loading info. If anyone would like a copy I can email them or if someone could tell me how to post it here perhaps that would be better. When I try it tells me my attachment is too large. It's a pdf. format.

Thanks for the offer, Lucky Joe! I do have that handbook, as well as quite a lot of other data. I have a Filemaker Pro database for each cartridge I reload, with loads from a number of manuals and other sources, including those I have tried out.

I was wondering if anyone had developed some accurate loads with this particular Lee version of the Keith bullet - It might save me some time :D My range trip this week was my first time out to the range in several months. Life is busy with other things, so right now shooting and reloading are taking a back seat.

The 5.0 Unique load has served me well with other bullets in 38 and 357, so I thought I might have some good results with it. My main interest in this bullet was for my 38-44 Outdoorsman as well as the 357. I think I will try some Bullseye and 2400 loads, both in 38 and 357. I've got some Trail Boss also. Lathesmith's 3.2 BE load in the 357 looks like a good one to try for my 27.

I am quite pleased with this Lee mold, and am not suggesting the poor accuracy I received with my load was any fault of the mold. When trying something new, I usually will use a "control" or known-accurate load at the same time. This helps to determine if the shooter is having a bad day, or the new load is not behaving as well as I would like.

Regards

Ron

[shooting on a shoestring]

Well, here's a compilation of my day at the range today shooting the GB Lee 175 KSWC. The revolver is my new Christmas present 4&5/8" SSNMBH. Today was it's 4th trip to range and its showing improvement. The revolver is smoothing out, shells are now dropping free, leading has dropped down to between negligible and nothing. I am also getting used to the gun and overall precission is better. That said, I'm a little embarrassed over the groups.

The shooting was all done bench rested, 25 yds, 5 shot groups, chronograph at 8 feet from muzzle, just enough breeze to move the smoke away, approximately 70 degrees (winter here is tough).

These loads don't show my work-up, and neither are they the final(Does anyone ever arrive at a final load?).

5.5 gr Bullseye, WSP, 175 KSWC WWWQ'd, Felix:
1070 fps/10 SDEV, 4.5"
1069/8, 3.75"
1076/12, 5.0"
1083/6, 5.0"
1074/7, 4.75"
1070/13, 4.625"
groups not chrono'd: 4.75", 2.5"
Ave group size 4.5"

10.0 grs BlueDot, WSP, 175 KSWC WWWQ'd, Felix:
1298/15, 3.75"
1307/11, 3.875"
1300/11, 4.0"
1280/12, 3.875"
groups not chrono'd: 4.0', 2.25"
Ave Group size 3.625"

10.0 grs BlueDot WSP, 358156 GC WWWQ'd, Felix:
1314/25, 1.5"
1304/25, 2.25"
1323/7, 3.625"
groups not chrono'd: 3.25", 1.625", 1.625", 2.0", 2.625"
Ave group size 2.625"

13.0 grs H110, CCI550, 175 KSWC WWAC'd, Felix:
1140/23, 1.75"
1160/43, 3.25"
groups not chrono'd: 2.25", 1.5", 1.75", 2.75", 2.0"
Ave group size 2.125"

14.0 grs 2400, WSP, 175 KSWC WWWQ'd, Felix:
1334/12, 2.125"
1344/22, 3.125"
1350/13, 2.75"
1334/9, 3.875"
groups not chrono'd: 2.625", 3.375", 3.875", 2.375"
Ave group size 3.125"

14.0 grs 2400, WSP, 358156 GC WWWQ'd, Felix:
1349/19, 1.75"
1339/36, 2.25"
1348/20, 2.375"
groups not chrono'd: 2.25", 2.0"
Ave group size 2.125"

14.0 grs H110, CCI550, 175 KSWC WWAC'd, Felix:
1188/22, 2.75"
1185/18, 3.25"
1206/13, 1.75"
1172/23, 3.25"
groups not chrono'd: 4.5", 1.625", 1.75", 2.75"
Ave group size 2.625"

Considering that size matters, so far my old 358156 GC is shooting tighter than the 175 KSWC.

That's the data for today.

[PatMarlin]

Veral will not make a 6 cavity mold, and I don't blame him; he has his own good reasons. Lee will, and if I need one for high-volume production, I can get it.

Veral really doesn't need to make a 6 banger cause you can cast just as fast with his molds the way they all fill out drop boolits like butter. No fuss, no muss.. .:Fire: