Cast boolit expansion in .45acp... What have you found?

[Animal]

Guys,

I'm on the hunt for a non-hp mold/alloy combination that people have found to give reliable expansion for the .45acp. I'm not completely opposed to HP molds, but I'd rather not go that direction if other options are available.

I'm under the impression that air cooled stick on ww alloy will probably give the results that I am looking for, and a boolit with a broad flat nose should aid in the expansion.

What have you guys discovered? Thanks

[308w]

Only way I ever got them to expand was with various hollow points that I drilled, my alloy was not as soft as you are planning on using though. I was using coww's air cooled. But keep us posted with your efforts I would like to hear about them.

[Larry Gibson]

Get a HP if you want reliable expansion in the 45 ACP. The Lyman 452374 is a very good one. That is what I have "discovered" after 40+ years with the 45 ACP.

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

There isn't any such expansion in 45 ACP. ACWW's need about 1200 fps at impact to expand and a 45 won't get you there.

[bhn22]

Hunting style cast bullets kill by tissue destruction/displacement & penetration, not expansion. LBT makes molds for a really great 45 ACP LFN that is reputed to be perhaps the best design if you want to hunt with a 45 ACP. Mine is a 230 gr. Nose design is everything.

[jonp]

There isn't any such expansion in 45 ACP. ACWW's need about 1200 fps at impact to expand and a 45 won't get you there.

Odd statement. Is your first sentence in reference to ACWW only? I see many 45ACP boolits mushroomed.

[ShooterAZ]

I see many 45ACP boolits mushroomed...even some really soft non HP ones.

[Kraschenbirn]

Over the years, I've killed a lot of water-logged phone books seeking 'reliable' expansion from various .45 SWC or TC designs. The only way I've been able to obtain anything near 'reliable' at acceptable .45 ACP velocities has been using the same 30/1 alloy (air-cooled) I shoot in my BPCRs and, even then, recovered boolits only measure in the .50-.55 range - .010 expansion or less - with visible leading apparent after the first few shots.

Bill

[Shiloh]

I recover mushroomed boolits out of the range berm. In spring, the are a lot of FMJ skipping into the berm that are perfect and unblemished.
Lead boolits always show distortion.

Shiloh

[C. Latch]

Hunting style cast bullets kill by tissue destruction/displacement & penetration, not expansion. LBT makes molds for a really great 45 ACP LFN that is reputed to be perhaps the best design if you want to hunt with a 45 ACP. Mine is a 230 gr. Nose design is everything.

If you've killed deer-sized critters with a .45 ACP I'd love to hear stories or at least a summary of what works, did not work, and so on. Once I get a couple with the .45 Colt (I got the first last month) I'd like to try the .45 ACP on deer and have looked at the LBT WFN, but haven't ruled out a HP design.

[waksupi]

.45 is pre-expanded. I wouldn't worry about it.

[45 2.1]

This thread is already a hoot......... It will be interesting to see what else is posted.

[xacex]

Air cooled 50/50+tin right about 1000fps. Terminated two gallon jugs, and stopped in the third. Distance was about 10 yards. Mihec 45acp-200 penta pins. Those edges on the petals are like razors. I would hate to get hit with one of these. Bleed out would be massive.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71430&d=1369440598

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71431&d=1369440623

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71432&d=1369440624


These were powder coated with Harbor freight black P/C.

Problem with these is the COWW age hardens enough that after a while the expansion diminishes. Next time I will only use 5-10% COWW to pure. With the P/C I don't worry about leading. I wouldn't use these on game. They dump all of their energy quickly, and would have to cut their way through which means it might not pass through an animal with thicker skin than a human.

[ShooterAZ]

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lasc.us/expanded_452460c-9.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lasc.us/fryxellcasthp45acp.htm&h=220&w=378&sz=9&tbnid=mNdsS8KrB3wwSM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=208&zoom=1&usg=__UKRKT-KA-QFo8q_SVnPH4Bb2IdU=&docid=TfNAR8AqpVdpyM&sa=X&ei=lLGgUoW0F8P5oAS-6YDYAw&ved=0CDgQ9QEwBQ These too.

[Outpost75]

My best results in .45 ACP and .45 Colt for hunting purposes have always been with a solid, flatnosed bullet with large meplat.

A bullet which is soft and fragile enough to expand reliably below 1000 fps is not going to give adequate through and through penetration.

Use a flatnosed bullet with the largest meplat which will feed, the LBT auto pistol designs are ideal.

If not shooting hogs or bear, but for deer only, the #452374 hollowpoint which Larry mentioned is a good choice, but I do most of my .45 handgun hunting with revolvers, so I prefer something like this Accurate 45-240A:

89599

This weighs 240 grains in wheelwewights, and while designed for the .45 Auto Rim, it will feed in M1911s which are properly set up and gets 880 fps with 9 grains of Blue Dot. A .45 Colt equivalent load for the .45 ACP.

[45 2.1]

A bullet which is soft and fragile enough to expand reliably below 1000 fps is not going to give adequate through and through penetration.

Strange you should say that......... I've gotten mine to do that very thing, quite a few times now on deer. Now if I lived someplace where there are bigger animals that aren't quite so tender that have a chance at biting, then I would go the big flat nose route with somewhat more umph.

[Char-Gar]

I am very skeptical about any cast non-hollow point bullet expanding from an 45 ACP autopistol when hitting a deer. Hitting dirt or rock, sure, but not a deer.

In years past I killed several Texas whitetail with a Colt Gold Cup in 45 ACP. The load was 452423 loaded as shown in the attached pic. The bullet weights 240 plus grains and is powdered by 4.8/Bulleye. This gave through and through wound and very dead deer. The range was under 50 yards. This was about 1963 to 1966.

This bullet has a spotty reputation of feeding well, but it has worked for me in most 1911 pistols but not in a few. The rounds pictured have been loaded into moon clips for bowling pin shooting out of my Smith and Wesson 625, but they work through my autos as well.

[quilbilly]

.45 is pre-expanded. I wouldn't worry about it.
Having hunted deer with a 45 caliber muzzleloader and patched round ball for many years with success, expansion of a 45 ACP is a non issue.

[Larry Gibson]

I have terminated numerous deer, goats and sheep (injured and/or diseased) with the 45 ACP (Colt M1911)as a LEO. When using cast 452490 (245 gr) and the 454424 (255 gr) at 775 fps the deer took quite a while to lay down and die with classic heart lung shots. Same with 200 gr 452460 or the H&G 68 with a +P load doing 1000+ fps; all cast of COWWs. When the 452490 (a GC'd) was cast of 30-1, HP'd with a "FAT" style HP and pushed at 850 fps the expansion was very good with much larger wound channels. Recovered bullets showed excellent and even expansion. The animals always died much quicker when shot in the same heart/lung area than with the solid bullets.

Larry Gibson

[Abenaki]

I use air cooled coww's in my 45 acp.

I have seed very little expansion, mostly just a "bumping up" of the boolits, from hitting the dirt bank I shoot at.

If I want a boolit that hits "hard" I use a tc design boolit.


Take care
Abenaki

[35remington]

The "expansion" of solid bullets, even if cast soft, is more a widening of the meplat than mushroom type expansion, with very little increase in bullet diameter. This at 45 ACP velocities when hitting animals, not berms or sand or rocks.

If ribcage shots are taken I much prefer a hollow point. If an angling shots may be likely i gas things up a bit with a wide meplat bullet in an Auto Rim revolver.

[Dale in Louisiana]

.45 is pre-expanded. I wouldn't worry about it.

Exactly! A .45 starts out at what a 9mm shooter wants to expand TO!

dale in Louisiana

[cbrick]

I'm under the impression that air cooled stick on ww alloy will probably give the results that I am looking for, and a boolit with a broad flat nose should aid in the expansion.

That's a moot point, stick-on WW has very little to no antimony in it and you could quench or oven heat treat until you die of old age as a little white haired, bent over boolit caster before you would harden any lead without Sb.

Firing into birms, sand, rocks or water jugs will give deformation at 45 ACP velocities however, water is a very hard medium to a boolit and is NOTHING like hitting tissue. If you want to use this boolit for hunting and want expansion use a HP. A boolit like 068 has amazing penetration through water at 45 ACP velocities.

Rick

[David2011]

I finished off several hogs last weekend with aircooled COWW+5% Monotype using the Lyman 452374 after rifle shots didn't kill them immediately. Expansion was not a factor on the head shots. They all passed through the heads.

David

[xacex]

That's a moot point, stick-on WW has very little to no antimony in it and you could quench or oven heat treat until you die of old age as a little white haired, bent over boolit caster before you would harden any lead without Sb.

Firing into birms, sand, rocks or water jugs will give deformation at 45 ACP velocities however, water is a very hard medium to a boolit and is NOTHING like hitting tissue. If you want to use this boolit for hunting and want expansion use a HP. A boolit like 068 has amazing penetration through water at 45 ACP velocities.

Rick

So are you implying that although my bullets pictured expanded to their full potential and didn't pass through a third water jug they would be fine for a medium size critter? Full pass through possible with expansion? I would think because of the weight and surface area when expanded it would loose energy very fast, and stop at the hide on the other side.

[cbrick]

No, the HP's will expand just like your picture shows, I got the same results shooting the 45 ACP HP's into water. I've never shot game with the 45 ACP but from my expansion testing I would say the HP would give fairly poor penetration in game. Water is a very hard medium to a HP and milk jugs filled with water are a poor test platform because the jugs split apart loosing the water and the boolit isn't passing through as much water as you may think.

89654

My best guess is that these boolits opened up dramatically at the surface of the water and simply sank to the bottom of the tank. I was shooting straight down into 3 feet of water. The bottom of the tank was lined with steel plates and there wasn't a single mark on them from hitting the steel.

89655

The above picture is 068 fired with the same load as the HP's from the same distance into the same 3 feet of water. They hit the steel plates hard enough to deform them, far better penetration. In fact these hit the water so hard I had to refill the tank after each shot because about 1/3 of the water left in a geyser. Not nearly so much with the HP's.

Rick

[Bigslug]

With regards to Char-Gar's post (#17) - I also dabbled briefly with the Lyman 452423. It's a wicked-looking slug, and while I found that it fed, it had a tendency to be a little bit "hitchy" on the feed ramp, giving a very slight delay in chambering.

What I ended up with was the Accurate Molds 45-230F, which seems to be the ideal blend of FMJ feeding profile and Elmer Keith meat crusher. This is pretty close in external profile to the current crop of duty rounds - SXT, HST, Golden Saber, Gold Dot, etc..., just without the cavity. Another advantage that I see this slug having over the 452423 is that it drops out right at 230 grains, for which there is mountains of good, reliable load data for. The heavier Lyman, not so much

For hunting with a .45ACP, I wouldn't necessarily WANT expansion. I've looked at A LOT of FBI-spec gelatin testing data for the aforementioned hollowpoints. It pretty much all ends up about .75-.90 caliber, penetrates about 12"-14", and has a street record of stopping on skin/clothing on the far side of the body, which is great for the urban jungle on targets with anatomy that is layed out vertically, but maybe not for certain angles on creatures that are layed out horizontally.

Go for crush by meplat and don't sweat deformation.

[mikeym1a]

We're talking about the .45ACP, RIGHT????? I you need expansion with a .45, you probably need a muchbigger gun :-)

[243winxb]

.45 is pre-expanded. I wouldn't worry about it. So true. Its expanded before leaving the barrel.

[snuffy]

Here's a couple of picks I have put on here before. They are nearly pure lead cast into MP 200 RNFPHP from the group buy maybe 2 years ago? I know he's repeated that GB since.

That expansion media is a gummy wax, quite dense, it stopped those boolits in about 5" of that medium. It is "supposed" to simulate dense muscle tissue.
http://www.thebullettesttube.com/

89660
Left is the penta point, right the round HP.

89661
Penetration of the round HP.

89662
Penetration of the penta point HP.

Velocity was 850-875, lead was nearly pure-3% tin added.

That's to show how quickly they stopped. I'd bet a lot that they'd NOT go through a whitetail deer, even with a broadside shot in the ribs.

This discussion has me thinking that I should do a test with that same boolit with the pins turned around to cast a solid. OR I could use some lee 200 RNFP in solid form to stay with the 200 grain weight. Profile of that boolit is very near the same as the MP mold.

Those expansion tubes are 12" deep/long, I'd bet a solid boolit would go straight through. I can "catch" a boolit that might make it through by putting a long tube stuffed with rags in back of the expansion tube.

[blikseme300]

Exactly! A .45 starts out at what a 9mm shooter wants to expand TO!

dale in Louisiana

With a twist I like to tweak the 9mm "hi-shot capacity" crowd with my FNP-45. I like the CZ75BD and the Colt 1911 but this composite pistol is a good shooter with many bangs of big boolits.

If a 45 boolit won't get the job done then you needed a rifle AFAIAC.

[jonp]

That's a moot point, stick-on WW has very little to no antimony in it and you could quench or oven heat treat until you die of old age as a little white haired, bent over boolit caster before you would harden any lead without Sb.

Firing into birms, sand, rocks or water jugs will give deformation at 45 ACP velocities however, water is a very hard medium to a boolit and is NOTHING like hitting tissue. If you want to use this boolit for hunting and want expansion use a HP. A boolit like 068 has amazing penetration through water at 45 ACP velocities.

Rick
Tissue is comprised primarily of water. Why would expansion be less?

[cbrick]

Tissue is comprised primarily of water. Why would expansion be less?

Expansion of the HP wouldn't be less as in the three posts of pics, penetration of the HP would be minimal at 45 ACP velocities. Smacking water is almost like smacking concrete so HP expansion would be dramatic. Don't believe that? Do a belly flop off a 50 foot tower & see how fast you stop. Before you sink like a rock :mrgreen:

Rick

[Animal]

Interesting... the threads that I think will turn into an interesting debate usually remain relatively quiet. The threads that I think will be quiet and simple end up becoming the most interesting...

As for the 'preexisting expansion' of a .45 acp boolit... that makes perfect since. In my .38spl and .357mag loads I fretted the amount of expansion for the purpose of the round I was developing. I guess old habbits die hard. I'll leave my .357-.359 diameter habits at the door when I walk into the .45acp house for now on.

But by all means, please keep the discussions going. I'm learning some interesting points that I haven't considered previously:popcorn:. Thanks guys.

[35remington]

At 45 ACP speeds of circa 800-900 fps, even pure lead doesn't deform much and solid bullets certainly don't show the "mushrooming" and increase of diameter that is typically thought to be the indicator of expansion. Re remind yourself velocity is relatively low. For hollowpoints to expand at this speed they rely on gaping cavities and relatively soft metal, oftentimes accompanied by slits or "skiving" of the jacket if not of the cast type.

Since large hollowpoints are needed at such speeds, solids don't stand a chance of real expansion.

"Pre expanded" bullets only work if they transfer the energy they possess into work that damages vital tissue. Some designs are notoriously poor at accomplishing this. Yeah, the diameter helps, but I doubt that many here would view the idea of shooting a deer through the lungs with solid, RN bullets at 800 fps with much enthusiasm.

[jonp]

Expansion of the HP wouldn't be less as in the three posts of pics, penetration of the HP would be minimal at 45 ACP velocities. Smacking water is almost like smacking concrete so HP expansion would be dramatic. Don't believe that? Do a belly flop off a 50 foot tower & see how fast you stop. Before you sink like a rock :mrgreen:

Rick

I did a bellyflop off of a high diving board once. I stopped and then floated..got some applause too :violin:

I thought the question was about expansion not penetration. If both media are water then I'm still not sure of the reason for less with the tissue. Does the tissue clog the cavity preventing further expansion?

[35remington]

And as regards ribcage shots on deer......I've never been of the mind that the ribcage of a deer offered all that much resistance to penetration. There's only the very thin sticks of the ribs, essentially no meat, and the airy tissue of the lungs in the way once the hide is pierced. On ribcage shots alone that did not pass through anything but said ribs on a broadside shot or mostly broadside, I don't think some enormous degree of penetration is called for. Here I'd rather go for a bigger hole through the lungs.

Here is where those hollowpoints will serve. If angling shots are taken where the point of the shoulder may be encountered before the bullet enters the body cavity, I would stay away from hollowpoints that flatten like pancakes at relatively low speeds.

[35remington]

The expansion on deer may be less because there's relatively little to expand the bullet before it hits the lungs. The rib may flatten the bullet's front end more so than give it any great expansion because ribs are bone, not fluid. Then you have a relatively blunt but not widely expanded bullet that is whizzing through the lungs, and lungs are probably less expansion inducing than water as well.

Most of what we picture in our minds as perfectly mushroomed bullets going through the deer's chest are really probably bluntly deformed bullets with somewhat widened meplats going through the deer's chest at 45 ACP speeds. Even if hollowpoint.

Depending upon what it hits first, of course. I'd bank on more "picture perfect" expansion if some amount of solid muscle tissue is impacted relatively early in the bullet's travel through the deer.

[35remington]

If you'll tolerate a bit of a thought process, relating to jacketed bullets (yeah, I know, but it's relevant) and how I decided just what worked and what did not, I'll mention the following. I'll throw in some cast observations.

Early on, before Hornady introduced their XTP in 45 ACP bullets, they had 185 HP's that offered a reasonably deep HP but nothing like a Speer Gold Dot. Not wanting to take any chances, I ran these at not just 1150 fps but, rather, 1250 fps or more like 10mm speed in an Auto Rim revolver. My aim was deer hunting, and I tested these on wet phone directories, noting with both satisfaction and trepidation that expansion was great but penetration was considerably less than any other bullet I shot, averaging in the 5 to 6 inch range at such speed. The currently manufactured XTP's penetrate considerably more than those bullets did.

Visualizing a bullet that went in the deer's side and not out the other is not reassuring, but I tried to come back to what I thought I knew about shooting deer with other calibers. Here I tried to err on the side of too much velocity and expansion because, after all, I planned to be shooting at close range at a deer's rib cage (bowhunting in effect). I knew and still know the limiting factor was how much lung tissue is damaged in bringing the deer down.

This was my first idea of how to make that happen while still exceeding Nebraska's 400 ft. lb. minimum at 50 yards (obviously written by the Nebraska G and P to specifically make the .357 pistol the benchmark). I thought a revolver in 45 ACP/Auto Rim can equal/exceed the 357, and I still believe that.

In both instances of using these hollowpoints, a rib was centered going in and out, and there certainly was no indication of underpenetration. Shots exited at considerably velocity and finely fractured rib bones on exit were evidence of that. Shots were well under 50 yards. If said bullet had mushroomed to a full inch in size while going only 800 fps, that may have been captured under the far hide, but these bullets were not of that sort. Despite what these bullets did in wet phone books there was no indication whatsoever that said bullets fragmented, flattened to the size of a quarter, or did anything similar when passing through the deer as they did in the books. Holes through the lungs could admit two fingers. Travel of these two deer was 50 and 80 yards after the shot. Both deer were double lunged.

Later I decided to go "Elmer Keith" and try the idea of a flattish blunt bullet at decent speed, the 452423 at 975 fps. This has worked about the same.....reinforcing the idea that even if HP'ed, both bullet types may in effect be a blunt close to 45 caliber bullet when traversing lung tissue after striking only ribs first.

One deer was lengthwised with a 452423, entering near the neck and exiting the left flank. The others were broadsided. I have not recovered any bullets of any type when shooting deer, mostly due to the fact that most were broadsided when speaking of the hollowpoints. Again, ribs and chest cavity alone isn't much resistance. The 452423 was mostly hard cast and a whitetail doesn't have much chance of stopping one launched at 975 fps. A coup de gras shot was once a little different, but that deer was lying on the ground.

But I have to mention again that a soft, very widely expanding, slow HP should be kept away from shoulders or angling shots. Mostly a suspicion based on other testing and I have not been foolish enough to push that concept further than it deserves.

[C. Latch]

"Pre expanded" bullets only work if they transfer the energy they possess into work that damages vital tissue. Some designs are notoriously poor at accomplishing this. Yeah, the diameter helps, but I doubt that many here would view the idea of shooting a deer through the lungs with solid, RN bullets at 800 fps with much enthusiasm.


I once finished off a wounded deer with a 1911 loaded with FMJ (I don't carry it loaded with FMJ but had a magazine of it handy) and I shot the whole magazine into her chest before she finally died. I was very much unimpressed and would never attempt to kill an otherwise healthy deer with handgun RN/FMJ of any sort unless it was an emergency.

[jhalcott]

I used the ~225 grain Lyman bullet (452374) at over 950 fps to get some expansion from a 1911. The shot was only about 25 yards into the ribs of a crop raiding doe. Powder was Blue dot. The bullet had a slim strip of aluminum foil between the mold halves, just to the case mouth from the nose. The alloy was only about 9-10 bhn. The recovered bullet WAS expanded to the end of the aluminum and still weighed 218 to 220 grains. There was a lot of trauma to the inside of that deer! I was carrying a .22rf handgun and the 45 for groundhogs behind a barn. IF the farmer had not seen the deer, it would not have been shot! The deer problem was why I was there !!!

[jhalcott]

I had thought the split bullet would LIMIT penetration and possible ricochets because it would open very quickly. It went to the far side skin.

[xacex]

The split, or penta boolits would work a little differently I think. A normal hollow-point expanded would spin as it went through the medium, but would encounter the full resistance of what it is encountering. A penta or spit/petaled bullet would cut through the medium like a propeller until it lost all of its energy. I took all of the courses offered in physics at the local CC, but it doesn't take much to figure out a sharp object spinning forward will go farther than a blunt object going through the same material. Unfortunately for me I didn't pay enough attention to be able to determine whether or not there is another vector involved which I am sure there is.

It has been proven already that the penta style hollow-points offer more blood vessel damage, and better knock down potential, but as far as penetration...that is something that involves more understanding of physics than I have.

[snuffy]

The split, or penta boolits would work a little differently I think. A normal hollow-point expanded would spin as it went through the medium, but would encounter the full resistance of what it is encountering. A penta or spit/petaled bullet would cut through the medium [b]like a propeller]/b] until it lost all of its energy. I took all of the courses offered in physics at the local CC, but it doesn't take much to figure out a sharp object spinning forward will go farther than a blunt object going through the same material. Unfortunately for me I didn't pay enough attention to be able to determine whether or not there is another vector involved which I am sure there is.

It has been proven already that the penta style hollow-points offer more blood vessel damage, and better knock down potential, but as far as penetration...that is something that involves more understanding of physics than I have.

Bullets don't spin like propellers. They turn no faster than the twist rate of the barrel. I don't know right off-hand the normal twist rate of a 45, but I doubt it's much faster than 1-12,14 That means one turn in the chest cavity of an average deer. Forget about bullet buzz saws, the turn rate is very slow.

35 Remington, congrats on doing a bit of necropsy to find out how your boolits were performing. I do---or did the same when I was shooting just about any game animal, and some pests.

[35remington]

The "blender effect" of a spinning bullet isn't much. A 45 ACP bullet, given a normal 1-16 twist, would spin about once on its way through a deer broadside......so not much "propellering" is done. The relative spin of the bullet is so comparatively slow compared to the thickness of what it is traversing that I would warrant the bullet would encounter little difference in how it cut tissue. I would suppose the damage would depend upon how it slowed and that would be most influenced by how widely it expanded.

My guess is a quantum leap in effectiveness of a Penta hollowpoint over a regular hollowpoint would be awfully hard to prove. These are still moderate speed projectiles capable of only moderate damage. Increased damage at the beginning of the bullet's impact translates to less damage at the end of its passage as said damage decreases due to the slowing of the bullet. It may be that both bullet types (Penta and regular hollowpoint) have equal damage potential, which is quite possible.

The bullet has only so much energy to disperse. A 45 ACP is still just that and not a .270.

[35remington]

Snuffy posted right before I did. As far as the necropsies go, once can't help but be interested in what pistol bullets (or any bullet) do to deer, especially when I was using such supposedly different types. In all actuality, it didn't seem as different as I had supposed, maybe for the reasons I advanced.

I confess I examine all the bullet tracks in just about every animal I shoot using whatever caliber I shoot them with. Even rabbits and squirrels. More information is a useful thing.

[xacex]

As I understand it bullet rotation, or twist increases as it looses forward momentum. So a 1/14 twist may be just that at the muzzle at 900 fps, but as its forward momentum slows it still does not loose rotational force ,or rpm hence the grenade affect of a boolit as it reaches the point down range that it can no longer hold itself together do to a imperfection or alloy toughness. So even though it is a 1/14 twist when it hits a deer or other object, it takes more force to stop the rotation which is the last force to reach zero. So in essence the 1/14 twist become a much faster twist when it hits a medium. Am I wrong? I think you can see what I am saying if you look at a gel test. There will be many more twists left in the gel per foot than the twist rate of the firearm that shot it.

[snuffy]

Am I wrong?

In my opinion, yes you are. The rotation will slow as the velocity slows in the wound cavity. I do see your viewpoint that as a bullet goes down range, it slows in velocity as it encounters air resistance, but the rotation does not slow down as fast. I seen it said by ballisticians that the spin does not slow nearly as fast as velocity. So perhaps the twist rate does seem to increase, but it's not. Just the relation or ratio to its forward movement.

Possibly that's why a solid penetrates deeper because there's nothing sticking out from the bullet, the expanded nose to slow the rotation.?? It would be hard to prove, but interesting as well.

[MtGun44]

How about this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51815&d=1289713935

You will get double that penetration in ballistic gelatin.

Bill

[Forrest r]

Great eye candy Mtgun44, can't get enough of that picture!!!

Interesting about how "slow" the 45acp's bullet rotation is. It's only 37,000rpm or 600+rps from a standard 230gr 830fps ball ammo. When that bullet hits something it's spinning @ 600+ revolutions per second. Anyone who says a 45acp will only spin once or about once in something as thick/wide as a deer doen't have a clue about the 45acp cartridge. Anyone care to count past 1? A 200gr 45acp bullet

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DA8X qAMn4Wqo&ei=GcqhUpf8Bs_okAeMzoHICg&usg=AFQjCNGL8g_0T0MOUT7I1x49Zk569QcS1Q

A 230gr 45apc bullet

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&ved=0CGQQtwIwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd2t aJFU1vG8&ei=GcqhUpf8Bs_okAeMzoHICg&usg=AFQjCNHeRjF4Cdvo847VIEKEydikGQyGVA

As far as a standard hp over a penta point hp, that's been proven decades ago. That's why all the mfg's are making hp's that open up with spears/talons/pedals or whatever else you want to call them. The penta's will open up as big as their standard round hp cousins but because the penta's are not a solid mass (solid frontal area) they will have less resistance. Same weight, same speed, less resistance ='s deeper penetration.

The "blender effect" is a side bonus of these types of hp's, they send lateral shock wave out as they spin (more than 1 revolution). This is an excellent video that shows the lateral waves in the ballistic gel, you can actually count the # of revolutions the bullet did in the gel & visually see the waves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HRtfkXFbmY&list=PLE0130DB4E7AF8B48&index=1

Penta style hp with it's pedals, arms, spears, talons or whatever you want to call them have been out for decades, used by every major sd ammo mfg in every handgun caliber for a reason.

[Airman Basic]

Back last century, killed several deer with a 250 grain Alberts hollowpoint swaged SWC, pushed by a bunch of Blue Dot. Shooting a series 70 Gold Cup. They shot good and killed good, expanded some, but like somebody said, 45s are pre-expanded.

[Animal]

This thread is starting to reach an area of knowledge and experience that I'm having a tough time wrapping my mind around. I'll be researching this topic on my free time now. I'd like to thank everyone for sharing what they know, especially 35remington for detailed documentation of past experience.

I don't plan to hunt with this pistol, I'd just like to develop 1 good load that would be useful for self-defense in the event that things go south and a certain level of civil unrest is present (which I hope never happens).

I'd like a boolit that will suffice as a great man-stopper at 20 yds or less. As I understand, the low pressure/high impact of the .45acp is probably the perfect cartridge for the job and the 1911 is a proven platform in which to launch this round. I've got other calibers for 4 legged critters.

[ShooterAZ]

I'd like a boolit that will suffice as a great man-stopper at 20 yds or less.

Why didn't you say so?:mrgreen: at 20 yards or less a cast 230 RN will work perfectly as a man stopper.

[Char-Gar]

This thread is starting to reach an area of knowledge and experience that I'm having a tough time wrapping my mind around. I'll be researching this topic on my free time now. I'd like to thank everyone for sharing what they know, especially 35remington for detailed documentation of past experience.

I don't plan to hunt with this pistol, I'd just like to develop 1 good load that would be useful for self-defense in the event that things go south and a certain level of civil unrest is present (which I hope never happens).

I'd like a boolit that will suffice as a great man-stopper at 20 yds or less. As I understand, the low pressure/high impact of the .45acp is probably the perfect cartridge for the job and the 1911 is a proven platform in which to launch this round. I've got other calibers for 4 legged critters.

Folks around here have a propensity to over think an issue and give thousand dollar answers to 50 cent questions. The 1911 pistol and the 45 ACP round are now into their second century of use and there are no secrets yet to be discovered.

My answer to your 20 yard man stopper question is a 200 to 220 grain SWC cutter like Hensley & Gibbs 68 or Lyman 452460 powered by 5 grains of Bulleye. There are other combinations that will do as well, but none that are clearly superior. If you hit an attacker between the shirt pockets with this load and he shrugs it off, you have some really bad karma and your *** is toast. Best kneel on the ground and implore the powers of heaven to save you, as no other pistol/load would have done you any better.

Any handgun is inferior to a good 12 gage shotgun, just easier to carry and have with you when it is needed unexpectedly. If you have fair warning of trouble and don't have a shotgun in your hands when it arrives you are some kind of a fool.

[45 2.1]

Why didn't you say so?:mrgreen: at 20 yards or less a cast 230 RN will work perfectly as a man stopper.

A little tale from a Chicago cop (before the convention in the early 70's) who helped close to a dozen perps trying to kill him on to their reward. He had a 1917 Colt loaded with factory ball in GI half moons upon entering a house where the woman that called in an attack in progress was dead on the floor, encountering a butcher knife wielding large man coming out of a door on the other side intent on stabbing him, he emptied the Colt into center mass.... it took all six to stop him and he had his second gun out ready after the Colt ran dry. Not everything is what it seems from shooting reports........ people high on booze or drugs are hard to stop.

While cast semi-wadcutters driven hard work well, there are HP's out there that do better (factory and cast). The Mozambique drill is for situations where the first shot isn't effective. Having shot several deer out of 45 ACP wheelguns (semi-autos are not allowed here), I found the SWC does OK if you're close enough (25 yards or so) and beyond decrease in effectiveness. HPs increase the effective range a little past 45 yards. Beyond that you need to be a better hunter and place shots where they do the most good.

Handguns, shotguns and rifles are fine tools all in the effective range they, and the user is capable of, have. Folks really need to try what range that is to find out just where those ranges stop and plan appropriately.

[jonp]

I once finished off a wounded deer with a 1911 loaded with FMJ (I don't carry it loaded with FMJ but had a magazine of it handy) and I shot the whole magazine into her chest before she finally died. I was very much unimpressed and would never attempt to kill an otherwise healthy deer with handgun RN/FMJ of any sort unless it was an emergency.
Thats no lie. When I use a rifle for hunting I carry a revolver, usually my 357Mag BH filled with the appropriate ammo certainly not FMJ which are good for target practice and not much else I think

[snuffy]

[QUOTE=Forrest r;2509647]Great eye candy Mtgun44, can't get enough of that picture!!!

Interesting about how "slow" the 45acp's bullet rotation is. It's only 37,000rpm or 600+rps from a standard 230gr 830fps ball ammo. When that bullet hits something it's spinning @ 600+ revolutions per second. Anyone who says a 45acp will only spin once or about once in something as thick/wide as a deer doen't have a clue about the 45acp cartridge. Anyone care to count past 1? A 200gr 45acp bullet

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DA8X qAMn4Wqo&ei=GcqhUpf8Bs_okAeMzoHICg&usg=AFQjCNGL8g_0T0MOUT7I1x49Zk569QcS1Q

A 230gr 45apc bullet

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&ved=0CGQQtwIwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd2t aJFU1vG8&ei=GcqhUpf8Bs_okAeMzoHICg&usg=AFQjCNHeRjF4Cdvo847VIEKEydikGQyGVA

As far as a standard hp over a penta point hp, that's been proven decades ago. That's why all the mfg's are making hp's that open up with spears/talons/pedals or whatever else you want to call them. The penta's will open up as big as their standard round hp cousins but because the penta's are not a solid mass (solid frontal area) they will have less resistance. Same weight, same speed, less resistance ='s deeper penetration.

The "blender effect" is a side bonus of these types of hp's, they send lateral shock wave out as they spin (more than 1 revolution). This is an excellent video that shows the lateral waves in the ballistic gel, you can actually count the # of revolutions the bullet did in the gel & visually see the waves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HRtfkXFbmY&list=PLE0130DB4E7AF8B48&index=1

Penta style hp with it's pedals, arms, spears, talons or whatever you want to call them have been out for decades, used by every major sd ammo mfg in every handgun caliber for a reason.[/QUOTE

Good work with the calculator, but wrong assumption arrived at. Yup 600+ revolutions per second. But how far downrange does it travel in one second? Per your data, 830 feet! Now do some more math 600 ÷ 830 gives us .72 turns per foot! No faster! It's even more simple, 1-16 twist, 1 turn in 16 inches.

Now, thanks much for those VERY interesting video's. The gelatin tests clearly show the bullet continues to spin at the same rate, but it's slowing down, so it appears to accelerate. That answers the question I and 35 Rem had. But if you go full screen, and look real close, the bullet(s) barely turn ½ turn before entering the gelatin. I wish they were slowed down even more so you could more clearly see that.

There's just no "blender effect". Again, the bullet only
turns one revolution in 16 inches.


As for that ranger "T" bullet, wow, just wow! It would be even more impressive if they had a slow-mo video of it. I know why they used the denim, it's been said that a hollow point will "plug" with clothing, failing to expand. Hornady has solved that by the use of the FTX bullet. That soft tip in the HP protects the cavity from plugging. Here's an expanded Zombie round from my LC-9 into the wax test media;

89703

89702

89701

That's just a FTX with a green tip.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/zombie%20pot%20pies%20006.jpg

As for the penta point HP boolits, my very limited testing showed that they veered off course,(didn't penetrate in a straight line), and opened off center. That was ONE boolit in 45 acp. I'm going to be testing my new MP mold for the 358156 SWC, I have all three pins, so the penta, round HP, and the solid will all be tested.

The test media can be re-used,(melted), then poured into a new cardboard tube. But it's very labor intensive, it has to be melted slowly and can't be poured in too hot. So I tend to not test something unless I'm real interested in what it will show.

[cbrick]

Good work with the calculator, but wrong assumption arrived at. Yup 600+ revolutions per second. But how far downrange does it travel in one second? Per your data, 830 feet! Now do some more math 600 ÷ 830 gives us .72 turns per foot! No faster! It's even more simple, 1-16 twist, 1 turn in 16 inches.

Now, thanks much for those VERY interesting video's. The gelatin tests clearly show the bullet continues to spin at the same rate, but it's slowing down, so it appears to accelerate. That answers the question I and 35 Rem had. But if you go full screen, and look real close, the bullet(s) barely turn ½ turn before entering the gelatin. I wish they were slowed down even more so you could more clearly see that.

There's just no "blender effect". Again, the bullet only turns one revolution in 16 inches.

Exactly as I understand it and the only way to change that is to change the laws of physics. Perhaps it would help to understand if you ask yourself this: If rotation appears to speed up as the bullet/boolit slows down WHY did it stop spinning at the exact moment forward travel stopped? Or, if it had the momentum to speed up rotation as it slowed why didn't it continue rotating?

The forward velocity and the rotation imparted by the rifling twist rate are connected. If the forward velocity is 830 feet per second and the rifling twist is 1 turn in 16 inches that is what it will spin. If the boolit travels far enough for it's forward velocity to slow to half or 415 fps the rotation will be 1/2 turn in 8 inches.

Rick

[jonp]

Exactly as I understand it and the only way to change that is to change the laws of physics. Perhaps it would help to understand if you ask yourself this: If rotation appears to speed up as the bullet/boolit slows down WHY did it stop spinning at the exact moment forward travel stopped? Or, if it had the momentum to speed up rotation as it slowed why didn't it continue rotating?

The forward velocity and the rotation imparted by the rifling twist rate are connected. If the forward velocity is 830 feet per second and the rifling twist is 1 turn in 16 inches that is what it will spin. If the boolit travels far enough for it's forward velocity to slow to half or 415 fps the rotation will be 1/2 turn in 8 inches.

Rick

Unless the projectile is traveling through a medium dense enough to slow the spin at a greater rate than forward motion

[Piedmont]

As far as a standard hp over a penta point hp, that's been proven decades ago. That's why all the mfg's are making hp's that open up with spears/talons/pedals or whatever else you want to call them. The penta's will open up as big as their standard round hp cousins but because the penta's are not a solid mass (solid frontal area) they will have less resistance. Same weight, same speed, less resistance ='s deeper penetration.



I think you have come to the wrong conclusion on this by giving manufacturers too much credit. The reason they went to the penta point type is to prestress the jacket and in many cases the core so the thing would actually expand. We don't have to worry about jackets retarding expansion with our cast HPs. If it was noted that these prestressed penta types penetrated slightly more, well lets call that a benefit, just like they do when bullets don't penetrate well. Call it a benefit. Sell the sizzle. Marketing.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Tissue is comprised primarily of water. Why would expansion be less?
Fog is made up primarily of water too. How do you think it will do when it comes to bullet expansion?
If the deers lungs were full of liquid, you'd have a point. But most of what's in the vitals of a deer is spongy lung tissue filled with air.

[jhalcott]

I KNOW that a ROUND nosed bullet and a Semi or wadcutter bullet will penetrate to different depths when started at the same velocity and same alloy. This is one of the reasons I use Flat or SOFT nosed bullets for most of my hunting ammo. Wound channels from RN's seem to be narrower but longer and have less effects on the animal. Shooting dead livestock with large and small calibers has shown the small (7mm and .30 FN's) to nearly equal the 35 to 45 caliber RN's in TOTAL wound cavity sizes. LIVE animals often do not show much reaction to a RN hit, even though fatal. The same shot with a FN bullet often drops the animal very quickly. Does this mean the EXPANSION of the RN means nothing? Or the shock wave from the FN does all the work?!

[Love Life]

It's a 45. Holes kill stuff.

[xacex]

It's a 45. Holes kill stuff.

lol, yes! But what 45 boolit is more effective at killing stuff, and why? Bigger, better, faster, deader, right?

[Springfield0612]

Great thread! I've been mulling this over myself as I have just got my first two HP molds. It seems in the begining of the thread that when using cast HP, the issue, is that to get expansion without the bullet fragmenting or leading the barrel and losing mass you had to use a lower velocity thus limiting penetration due to the fact you had to use a lower BHN to allow the alloy to expand. So you're trade off is expansion vs. penetration. One argument is a .452" diameter bullet does not need to expand or deform to cause good balisitic damage. I agree on that point, that is one heck of a hole! But it looks like we're trying to have our cake and eat it too.

Issues using cast HP:
1) Soft alloy required for expansion.
2) Soft alloy limits velocity. (Due to leading issues and balistic limits of the alloy)
3) Penetration is limited by velocity.
4) Is there a way to cheat and use a softer alloy, but be able to push it to a faster velocity? But understanding that the terminal balistics will still be maintained without the bullet fragmenting and blowing apart or coming apart in the wound chanel.

So to have a happy medium we need to have velocity in harmony with the strength of the bullet, expansion needs to be symmetrical allowing the bullet to travel in a straight line.

Possible solutions:

1) Keep the softer alloy to allow expansion as required.
2) Use of a Gas Check (GC) will allow you to bump velocity up while protecting the bullet base from gas cutting. Then you need to look at lube failure as a possibility causing leading. Would Powder Coating (PC) solve this issue? You may not even need a GC with PC'ing the bullet.
3) By using a GC and/or PC. You should be able to cheat the velocity issues to negate lube failure and leading. But this is a partial fix as a GC and/or PC'ing does nothing to change the ballistic charactaristics of your soft alloy. But by increasing velocity shouldn't you be able to increase your alloy BHN just a bit to find that sweet spot to still allow for expansion and have the increased velocity?
4) See #3 above.

I've been doing a lot of research as I am just starting into reloading cast for rifle for hunting purposes. It seems that one constant with cast bullets is using the right alloy for the job. In doing so you need to match your alloy to meet your velocity and PSI. Your velocity and PSI are mainly controlled by your powder burn rate with other factors involved as well. So to meet our high velocity using cast the Lee #2 manual for lead 200 grain lists the folowing at max loads (I use 200 grain as that is close to my HP mold). I'll match the required BHN for the velocity and PSI as well.

Accurate #5 (#53 on the burn rate chart) 1025 FPS (6 BHN required) 19400 PSI (14 BHN required)
Accurate #7 (#63 on the burn rate chart) 1010 FPS (6 BHN required) 18900 PSI (~13 BHN required)
Vihtavuori N340 (#48 on the burn rate chart) 1054 FPS (6 BHN required) NO PSI LISTED (As it is a faster powder than A No.5 I would assume the PSI is higher and would need a slightly harder alloy ~15-16 BHN but since Lee uses Lyman #2 as a base alloy I'm guessing ~14 BHN)

So as you can see that the PSI is the real issue when looking at the .45 ACP load using cast boolits. To achieve the higher velocity the PSI increases requiring a harder alloy to maintain efficient terminal ballistics. So we need a slower powder.

It now seems the new question is what is the perfect powder for the job? Allowing a high velocity (+ 1000FPS), and a low PSI (below 11500 PSI) to allow velocity, penetration, and expansion. The issue is that most published reloading data uses Lyman #2 (14 BHN) alloy as a base and works around the 17300-20000 PSI range well above what we need to allow good expansion with a lower BHN alloy. I don't know about you guys but I have no way of testing PSI in my garage and I do not have access to all the powders listed on the burn rate chart to figure this one out. In the Lee #2 manual he talks about a conversion for rifle powders using slow powders to convert them for reduced loads using a "Pressure Factor" to calculate the PSI at reduced loads. But my edu-ma-k-ted brain tells me that a GC and/or PC'ing may allow us to cheat the PSI to achieve the Velocity we're looking for. The only powders I have on hand are WIN 231, Accurate No. 2, Red Dot, Ramshot Silhouette, Power Pistol, A2700, IMR3031.

So lets assume that by PC'ing a lead hollow point I can push it to the PSI and VEL of a plated bullet. As the powders I have on hand, the closest that matches the burn rate of the No. 5 No. 7, and V N340 is the Ramshot Silhouette at # 57 on the chart. Everything else I have is faster or WAY slower with power pistol coming in a close second at #43 on the chart. It apperas that you need a slower powder to achieve the velocity without going over the max PSI for the cartridge. So now our limiting factor is cartridge space to hold our slow powder. Ramshot lists data for Silhouette using Berrys Plated HP 200 gr. max load of 8.5 grn @ 1,034 FPS 20,315 PSI and 1.205 COL. Am I correct in the assumption that a plated bullet is pure or very soft lead plated with copper? If they are safely pushing a plated bullet to 20,315 PSI why not a PC'd bullet? With that data in hand the only question left is will the PC'd HP bullet hold up its terminal ballsitc effectivness at that PSI and VEL and still be acceptable?

I've got:
1) The PC'd Boolits
2) The powder
3) Springfield XD Compact 4" barrel as a test platform

I need:
1) A Chrono (I know someone who does, ahem Quilbilly)
2) Wet newspapaer for ballistic media. (What depth do I need to test these, never done it before?)
3) Time......

What varriables would we be looking at meeting?

1) BHN required for expansion. I've got pure lead, range lead, lead from a zinc trade with SHADYGRADY, and pewter to sweeten and add a little hardness. I do not have a BHN tester to give exact BHN for any alloy that I have. But the current HP's that I have cast were using alloy estimated to be ~ 12 BHN. I can use the lead alloy calculator and my current pure lead and pewter to make a different alloy or two. My thought is a known good expansion performing softer alloy, and a bit harder like my 12 BHN.
2) Velocity verified by Chrono working loads up safely.
3) Acceptable expansion (What are we looking at here for increase in diameter?)
4) Terminal ballsitic efficiency. What is an acceptable loss of overall weight?
5) Penetration.

Should I do this or am I off my rocker?

[fredj338]

IMO, won't happen w/o a HP of some kind. You might get a soft lead LFP like the 200gr Lee to deform A bit pushed hard, like 950fps, but why? Lot's of good options for expanding LHP out there. I have the Lyman Dev, casts 200gr from 25-1 alloy. I also have a mold modified by Erik w/ penta pt that goes 215gr & expands well w/o pushing it hard.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/45-215gr.jpg.html)

[fredj338]

So are you implying that although my bullets pictured expanded to their full potential and didn't pass through a third water jug they would be fine for a medium size critter? Full pass through possible with expansion? I would think because of the weight and surface area when expanded it would loose energy very fast, and stop at the hide on the other side.
Bullets penetrate water about twice as far as bal gel, about 3/4 in wetpack. So I doubt you get a pass thru on any tissue more than 12" thick (24" of water jugs). IMO, a HP, lead or jacketed, only makes the 45acp a better fight stopper, as long as the bullet has enough mass to penetrate to vitals from any angle, about 12"-14".

[xacex]

Springfield, not allowed to use an XD. According to the laws set forth by our founding principles you must use a 1911, anything else will be deemed unusable data. [smilie=1:

However,I wouldn't mind seeing what you come up with.

[waksupi]

Considering how many layers of clothes people have on in this area today, I would bet against a hollow point making it to skin!

[fredj338]

Considering how many layers of clothes people have on in this area today, I would bet against a hollow point making it to skin!
The clothing issue is so over done. The worst thing that will happen is the bullet won't expand which will make it penetrate more. Since it is a 45cal, already bigger than many HP will get after expansion thru clothing. A none issue really.

Issues using cast HP:
1) Soft alloy required for expansion. Nothing wrong with that, we are talking low vel & pressures in the 45acp.
2) Soft alloy limits velocity. (Due to leading issues and balistic limits of the alloy)
3) Penetration is limited by velocity. Yes & no, more the frontal area & mass.
4) Is there a way to cheat and use a softer alloy, but be able to push it to a faster velocity? But understanding that the terminal balistics will still be maintained without the bullet fragmenting and blowing apart or coming apart in the wound chanel. A lead/tin bullet tends to be pliable & not brittle. Depending on the HP design, you can drive them pretty fast & not have fragmentation. BTWM some fragmentation is NOT undesirable, as long as enough mass remains to give penetration. You get secondary wounding from pieces that spin of & damage other parts of the body.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/9mm-136-1200.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html)

[Forrest r]

You guys that think that a bullet will only turn 1 revolution every 16"'s need to take another look at the video links I posted. There's 1000's more just like it out on the web. Those video's clearly show bullets doing more than 1 revolution in 16".

I don't know about giving the mfg's more credit than they deserve either. They've developed some pretty good sd ammo, large holes & penetration. Ammo's come a long way & the bullets they are designing are far more lethal than what was available in the past.

[bstone5]

The 45 ACP when originally designed was for a pistol that could be easily reloaded while on a horse.

The design included the capacity to stop a horse with a neck or head shot.

[snuffy]

Springfield0612, lots of questions. I used a very nearly pure lead for those 45 HP's. (8 BHN) Lubed with carnuba red from white lable lubes, sized to .452 they did NOT lead the barrel. IIRC the load was 5.5 W231, which is about as hot as you can go with that powder. Also it's a fast burn rate powder.

I don't pay ANY attention to the burn rate chart, OR Lee's pressure data as it relates to BHN. He's been proven wrong so many times, it's irrelevant.

My current project is with my new 358156 MP HP mold, I'm casting those with the same alloy as those 45's. I'll see what they do as for leading, I'll be pushing some up to 1500 fps. They're GC'd and lubed with the C-red, so I don't expect much leading. So far I've used 3 powders, red-dot for some mild loads, blu-dot for mid range, and 2400 for top loads.

As for the powder coated boolits, you've just thrown another variable into the equation. Will the paint retard expansion? It depends on how tightly it adheres to the lead. It would have to crack to allow any expansion. I won't be trying PC on boolits. Too much messing around, I'd have to buy a compressor , spray gun, then a place that can get all guncked up. And for what, the use of a good lube and knowing your bore dimensions will alow for good shooting without leading. I could see some use for it in rifles, but paper patching is a lot less mess and it works as well or better.

QUoTE What varriables would we be looking at meeting?

1) BHN required for expansion. I've got pure lead, range lead, lead from a zinc trade with SHADYGRADY, and pewter to sweeten and add a little hardness. I do not have a BHN tester to give exact BHN for any alloy that I have. But the current HP's that I have cast were using alloy estimated to be ~ 12 BHN. I can use the lead alloy calculator and my current pure lead and pewter to make a different alloy or two. My thought is a known good expansion performing softer alloy, and a bit harder like my 12 BHN.

I have some range lead that averages around 12 BHN. I would expect that to expand by blowing the nose off the boolit back to the bottom of the HP. That's because it has a much higher percentage of antimony that tin, it'll be brittle. Not too bad of a thing though, the base then would still be 45 caliber and could then penetrate fully in a deer or bad guy.

2) Velocity verified by Chrono working loads up safely.
3) Acceptable expansion (What are we looking at here for increase in diameter?) The 3 boolits from the above expansion test ran .750, .770, .830, the last one was a penta.


4) Terminal ballistic efficiency. What is an acceptable loss of overall weight?All three were 100% weight retention. You could only get that with the real soft lead, the range lead would most likely shed the nose with corresponding weight loss.
5) Penetration. About 5" in my media. You'd have to test for yourself, but wet-pack will stop 'em pretty fast as well, about maybe 8-10 inches for those of mine.

[35remington]

Forest, it's not making many revolutions going through the gelatin, or even multiple turns in the low single digits. In a 24" block it's not even turning twice. No question.

I've seen your links, and it does not show many turns. The sharp edges of the jacket do cut, but that would be the case even if the bullet did not turn at all. Very slightly more area is cut due to the minimal spin of the bullet but as mentioned the bullet does not spin a lot before it stops. The difference in any wounding effect is small, very small.

[MtGun44]

+1 on penta design to cause high local stresses (stress concentrations in engineering terms) which control
where the initial failure will be and make it happen at lower forces and more certainly.

Bill

[Forrest r]

Remington 35 your statement of about 1 revolution in a deer sized animal is bs in post 45. Glad to see you're going to stick by that 1 to the bitter end!!! Heck anyone with their eyes open can clearly see 3 revolutions (1:18 to 1:20 time @ the 8" to 10" mark) as the bullet slows down to a stop in the 1st video.
I'd rather believe my lying eyes than your lying keyboard.:violin:

Snuffy:
Don't know if this will help, alloys/speeds/full expansion with 95%+ weight retention.
10 to 1 lead/tin ='s 12bhn 1200fps
20 to 1 lead/tin ='s 10bhn 100fps
40 to 1 lead/tin ='s 8bhn 800fps

ww are supposed to be around 12bhn, allot of times ww's have to be mixed with pure lead & then tin added to keep them from being too brittle. Most range lead that I've used for decades from an outdoor range (2x) has been in the 8bhn to 10 bhn range. The only time I've ran into range lead being too brittle is if I use too much lead from the rifle range that has allot of cast bullets in it. Other than that I use it as is (nothing added) & air cooled for anything 1100fps & slower. Higher speeds ='s adding tin.

Need to start taking pictures of the different bullets/tests I do. I've cast, drilled lead hp's & swaged jacketed hp bullets for decades & currently cast with 8 different hp molds for 4 different calibers & swage jacketed hp bullets for those same calibers also. Of all things this is the only picture I've taken of hp expansion, a 220gr cast hbwc (8bhn range lead) shot out of a snub nosed 44spl @ 800fps+.

89761

[waksupi]

Ya know, I should give a nice big infraction for that last post. Clean it up.

Anyone who thinks an object gains rotational speed after the initial impulse must not have paid attention in physics.

[fastfire]

It may be as the boolit slows forward speed it keeps the rotation, or doesn't loose the rotation as fast as it looses forward speed:???:
After all, what rpm was it doing before it penatrated the jell?
Sooooo if it lost forward speed faster that rotational speed it will be rotating faster than 1/12" twist barrel or what ever the barrel twist is.

[waksupi]

It may be as the boolit slows forward speed it keeps the rotation, or doesn't loose the rotation as fast as it looses forward speed:???:
After all, what rpm was it doing before it penatrated the jell?
Sooooo if it lost forward speed faster that rotational speed it will be rotating faster than 1/12" twist barrel or what ever the barrel twist is.

Exactly.

[Animal]

HMMM.... this is starting to sound like circumstantial evidence that could explain the magic spinning bullet that has plagued the JFK assassination. :idea:

[Bigslug]

It may be as the boolit slows forward speed it keeps the rotation, or doesn't loose the rotation as fast as it looses forward speed:???:
After all, what rpm was it doing before it penatrated the jell?
Sooooo if it lost forward speed faster that rotational speed it will be rotating faster than 1/12" twist barrel or what ever the barrel twist is.

This is all true - the number of turns per given distance traveled will increase as the bullet loses forward speed.

But are we seriously considering using rotational movement as a means of increasing damage to the target? There's a great deal of forward-travelling inertia to a bullet, but its rotational inertia cannot be very much. We're only talking about fractions of an ounce here, with no more energy applied to it than you feel in the recoil of your firearm. I imagine that if you could magically suspend a bullet in midair spinning at the rates in question, you could walk up and stop the spin - easily, and without damage to yourself - by pinching it with your thumb and forefinger. Modern military rifle bullets are in fact designed specifically to take advantage of this effect - they are heavy at the rear, so that once spin-stabilization stops, the bullet swaps ends and starts travelling sideways through the target, often breaking apart if the impact stresses are high enough. Sure, we've all seen the pretty photos of the swirly wound tracks from various "fanged" bullets in gelatin used in advertising photos, but I'm not counting on that pill to be rotating much after it collides with skin, meat, bone etc... all of which offer a lot more lateral resistance than Jell-O. And really - those fangs are spreading out equally in all directions from the center of the bullet, so what does it really matter if they're rotating or not? The same stuff will be damaged regardless.

[Bigslug]

lol, yes! But what 45 boolit is more effective at killing stuff, and why? Bigger, better, faster, deader, right?

The FBI spent a lot of time and money figuring this out with regard to duty ammunition circa 1987-1993. To make a long story short, the conclusion was that more diameter is better ONLY AFTER ADEQUATE PENETRATION IS ACHIEVED. For humans, this worked out to requiring a minimum depth of the equivalent of 12" in bare gelatin. This study pretty much invalidated the concept of light/fast/rapid expansion/energy transference as seen in a lot of 9mm slugs of the mid-1980's - while they pancaked out really pretty, they didn't make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop.

The thing to remember with semi auto duty pistol calibers (9mm, .40, .45) is that you only have the momentum of 125-230 grains and 350-400 foot pounds at your disposal. Yes, you can divert that energy to make a WIDE wound channel, but take care to ensure that wound channel is still LONG enough.

The ammo factories have it easy. They have jackets to solve the issues of lead fouling and lube, and can wonderfully craft those jackets to split apart in a certain way. Also, since the jacket is solving all of their bore-sealing and lube issues, they can tweak the internal lead alloy ONLY considering the terminal effect on target. Obviously for casters, it isn't so simple.

For what the OP is looking for - a boolit that will serve in the Zombie Apocalypse - I might suggest NOE's small cavity 452-230G-SHP: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=250&osCsid=umscc15mc1aiv894k812of9p65

This mold will give you a profile that will feed (very similar to my Accurate 45-230F), enough weight for penetration, and a flat nose that will give a pretty impressive crush cavity even if the hollowpoint fails to expand. You can also install the non-hollowpoint pins and cast as a solid if you decide the HP's aren't worth the trouble.

Personally, I decided that for .45ACP (especially in a Zombie Apocalypse setting) fiddling around trying to find the perfect alloy for an HP that is more difficult to cast when flat noses have been proven to work for 130+ years was not worth it. As as been said, the .45 comes pre-expanded.

[Forrest r]

Nice, fastfire & bigslug get it.

The rotational inertia you're referring to is actually centripetal force. When a bullet is shot/fired it has kinetic energy in the forum of forward movement (momentum) and rotation (centripetal force). Both are deposited in the medium a bullet strikes & can be clearly seen in the 1st video I posted in post #50. If you watch the video from time frame 1:18 on you'll see the bullet go thru the jell. You will also see the cavity created by the jell move back & forth several times from the energy on the momentum of the bullet. You will also see the "bubbles/pieces of jell" in the cavity rotate to the left only (bullet is rotating left) as the cavity moves back & forth. The left movement of the jell isn't as violent as the front to back movement, but none the less it can be clearly seen. It is this rotational movement along with the cutting/blender effect of the pedaled bullets combined with the less resistance of the segmented frontal area of those bullets compared to the solid nosed hp's that make the pedaled hp's more lethal. Same expansion with more penetration & more damage, a pretty good combo.

On a side note, what's called centripetal acceleration is what confuses allot of people about the theory of a bullets rotation speeds up upon impact. When in reality the centripetal acceleration effects how fast/slow the hp opens & the ability of the hp to stay intact.

[xacex]

Anyone who thinks an object gains rotational speed after the initial impulse must not have paid attention in physics.

I may have not been clear. I don't think it gains rotational speed, but maintains it over a shorter distance. Hence the blender effect. I only had to pay enough attention to get through 3 classes of physics with calculus. I thought I would like it, and took it as electives. Turns out I liked chemistry better. I found at my age I made a much better student than when I was a teen, but it wasn't any easier to do this time around.

[45 2.1]

Anyone who thinks an object gains rotational speed after the initial impulse must not have paid attention in physics.

You said object...... consider the arrow and some tank projectiles shot from smooth bores that are fin stabilized.


Personally, I decided that for .45ACP (especially in a Zombie Apocalypse setting) fiddling around trying to find the perfect alloy for an HP that is more difficult to cast when flat noses have been proven to work for 130+ years was not worth it. As as been said, the .45 comes pre-expanded.

That alloy has been around for quite a while.... more than one actually. Some of our posters have mentioned them. If you take into account the lighter animals reaction when hit with either of these types (HP and solid FN), then the answer is quite obvious once you've seen it.

[35remington]

The point is, the rotational movement of the bullet contributes little to its wounding effect. Those that assert that a bullet that turns, in effect, rather slowly compared to its movement forward acts like a "buzz saw" are missing something fundamental. A buzz saw spins many times for each fraction of an inch of forward movement. A bullet comes nowhere near that. A buzz saw gets its effect from rotational velocity and the sharp teeth of the saw, in effect chipping away at the medium with many, many turns per inch moved. A bullet most assuredly does not, otherwise shotgun slugs and bullets from a Brown Bess couldn't kill anything.

The rotational energy of the bullet is very, very, very minor compared to the energy of its forward motion, and to assert that rotational spin greatly increases wounding effect is quite mistaken. That is the point to be taken away from this.

It spun 1.5 or 2 or 3 times on its way through the target? Who cares? All those number are very low, and to argue about exact numbers that are very low is to argue about a moot point. The energy and tissue destruction imparted in so doing from the spin alone is negligible. Do the math on the rotational energy carried by a 230 grain bullet at 830 fps......it's about 5 ft/lbs. or about what a BB gun produces. Adds greatly to wounding effect? Think again. You could indeed stop the rotational energy of a bullet with your fingers.

Buzz saw it is not.

[xacex]

Not a buzz saw, but a five bladed star rotating three times through its intended target will cause lots of damage. Much more damage that a plain h/p, or solid boolit.

[btroj]

How much more?

A flat nose tends to push aside tissue and fluids. Do the petals on the expanded HP actually touch flesh as it passes thru tissue?

[xacex]

After the initial cavitation from expansion I would imagine so.

[btroj]

When does initial cavitation end? At what point does the cavitation stop being larger than the expanded diameter of the bullet?

I bet cavitation diameter exceeds bullet diameter until the bullet has almost come to a stop. I don't think the petals do any significant work.

I think it is similar to fishing lures- they don't have to catch fish, just fishermen.

[xacex]

lol, very true. I have quite a collection of lures.

If cavitation diameter is not much more than boolit diameter the expanded hollow point, any hollow point would do more damage than a solid. The larger diameter you go the more chance there is to hit something beyond boolit diameter. At some fangs, blades or what have you that are sharp and stick out almost or more than twice the boolit diameter I think you have a recipe for a very bad day. But, as you say there are a ton of fishermen out there.

[btroj]

All a hollow point really does in most cases is enlarge the diameter of the bullet. In some cases it may blow the nose off creating secondary projectiles but if the bullet stays intact it just becomes a shorter, fatter bullet.

[35remington]

The sharp points cause damage, sure. The energy of rotation, not at all. The rotational distance occasioned by the turning of the projectile only a few times doesn't amount to much in terms of increasing the amount of tissue struck by the sharp points of the expanded jacket. It would be much more beneficial to increase the number of sharp edges. Cast lead bullets really don't have edges that can be considered really sharp. Blunt would be more like it.

At least the "buzz saw" analogy can be seen to be enormously oversold for any projectile as part of this discussion.

Correction.....the energy of rotation of a 230 at 830 fps is more like 2.8 ft/lbs. In other words, the striking energy from forward motion is about 110 times the energy of rotation, and virtually every bit of the expanding cavity you see in those gelatin movies comes from the forward motion of the bullet. It would be equally impressive if the bullet did not rotate at all.

The energy of rotation is so low that it has virtually no capacity to move anything in gelatin. The energy of rotation is not sufficient to move the mass of gelatin attributed to it in the videos.

[waksupi]

I think the best answer for this subject, is for people to put in as much field time as possible, and observe for yourself what different boolit types act like on game. I did it for years, and now have very definite thoughts on it. Some can only be taught by seeing for thierself, which is a good thing. That's how we learn.

[btroj]

Couldn't agree more Ric. Marketing hype and supposition only get you so far. At some point you need to see what works and stick with it.

[35remington]

What I"m interested in is what minimum level of damage is necessary to be indistinguishable from another, potentially much higher level of damage in terms of observed effect on whatever animal of interest is being discussed.

I've been present when reduced loads of a 100 grain bullet at 2300 fps......25-35 or 7.62 X 39 "ish" levels of energy were deposited in deer at woods ranges, and the observed effect was indistinguishable from much more powerful cartridges. This with reduced .257 Roberts loads for youth to take their first whitetail. They certainly weren't scared of the recoil, and I'd have a hard time arguing against such loads.

What is more interesting are when lower levels of energy and damage are discussed. How much is truly adequate to take a deer? We've had a lot of discussion on the board in this regard lately, with many posts about loads nearly everyone would normally consider inadequate supposedly performing well. I can't necessarily tell if some of these instances were simply luck of the draw or the normal situation.

There are minimums below which we don't want to go. The hard part is defining just what that is.

[Forrest r]

Correction.....the energy of rotation of a 230 at 830 fps is more like 2.8 ft/lbs:popcorn:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brassfetcher.com%2FWounding%2 520Theory%2FHandgun%2520Wounding%2520Effects%2520d ue%2520to%2520Rotational%2520Velocity.pdf&ei=fUOkUvWRGs3PkQfMjYGoAQ&usg=AFQjCNErU4wNMlKTP7fE7xcMGXwKFDRZ9A

[Animal]

For what the OP is looking for - a boolit that will serve in the Zombie Apocalypse - I might suggest NOE's small cavity 452-230G-SHP: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=250&osCsid=umscc15mc1aiv894k812of9p65

Bigslug: That is a nice mold! I like the fact that it is a 4 cavity. I'm going to put it on my list. Thanks

[Wizwheel]

OK - too much science, and not enough shooting. If your hunting, how many rounds do you fire at animals? 10 if you suck! So just shoot a soft boolit that mushrooms nicely that you can HIT with, and clean the leading out of the damn gun! If your punching holes in paper, shoot a harder boolit that is as accurate as the hunting round to practice with and clean the gun less often.

[waksupi]

OK - too much science, and not enough shooting. If your hunting, how many rounds do you fire at animals? 10 if you suck! So just shoot a soft boolit that mushrooms nicely that you can HIT with, and clean the leading out of the damn gun! If your punching holes in paper, shoot a harder boolit that is as accurate as the hunting round to practice with and clean the gun less often.

What's leading? I have rifles and pistols with hundreds of rounds through them, and don't see this leading of which you speak!
:smile:

[btroj]

A soft bullet need not lead and a soft bullet isn't always required for shooting game.

Talk about over simplified.

I prefer to balance hardness, caliber, velocity, distance, and game sought.

[cbrick]

And too hard of a boolit can often be the cause of leading and/or inaccuracy.

My long range match revolver hasn't had the bore cleaned in many hundreds of rounds fired and it's not leaded. I use a 25 power bore scope in all my firearms to know there is no leading.

Why would anyone want to go ahead and shoot a load that they know from previous shooting is going to lead the bore? Sounds like a much better plan to figure out why it's leading and fix the problem but that's just me I guess.

Rick

[Forrest r]

It's nice to have options for the same bullet. Range time is a must along with the ability to use a mold that is able to create multiple hp styles/designs along with solid points. At least with a 1911/45acp it's pretty much a lock-in with most of the mfg's using the same bbl twist.

Firearms like the 38spl/357 have twist rates all over the map, I'm currently using firearms with 6 different rates of twists for these bullets . I stated in an earlier post that I needed to start documenting the hp's I test, this is what I made this morning.

Swaged 147gr jacketed bullets for the 357 with a deep hp, shallow hp, solid swc & 124gr cast hp's ( cast weeks ago & assembled today) with round and penta points. Also in the picture is the point forming die along with a screw in hp tip, the hp's can easily be altered/changed by simply screwing a different hp tip into the die.

89952

The different hp/solid nosed bullets will be tested in firearms with twist rates:
1 in 10
1 in 12
1 in 14
1 in 16
1 in 17
1 in 18 3/4

If you think that the swaged deep hp's will act the same when it's shot @ 1600fps in a 1 in 10 twist bbl as it will in a 1 in 18 3/4 twist, guess again.

Some swaged jacketed 44's, same bullet nose but with a large hp, small hp, solid nose & something I've been wanting to try. Eley rimfire ammo came out with an eps nosed bullet that's extremely accurate in their tenex ammo so I decided to try an eps nose in the 44mag.

89953

Taking a break for lunch before I put the canalure on them & load them. The 44's are easier to load/test, only have 3 different rates of twists 1 in 16/ 1 in 20/ 1 in 22.

And yes I do 45acps also, cast and swaged. h&g 68 clone solid swc's & hp's.

89954

Mihec's 200gr hp's

89955

And swaged bullets, these are sweet!!!! Plan on making a couple 1000 this winter.

89958

Multiple hp's along with solid noses coupled with range time/testing ='s extremely lethal field use. Mihec molds are another option worth looking at. Some of them come with solid, small hp, large hp, penta point & cup pins, 5 different nose configurations for the same bullet.

[35remington]

Forest, the "rotational energy" link you posted is in quite considerable error. The energy posted for rotational energy is way too high. If you cannot do the math yourself to calculate rotational energy, I'd be delighted to do it for you and post it here, with the calculations for everyone to review. Rotational energy is very low and has no effect on wound development.

Up to the challenge? First, I'd like you to have a crack at calculating rotational energy in ft/lbs. This is more than a reasonable request, because if you cannot calculate it, you can't know if the rotational theory of energy deposit is correct or not.

To save you some time, I'll note it's not correct. What you do afterward to contest that will cost you some time in calculation, and it won't come out like you hoped.

[Forrest r]

Well thank you Remington35 for offering & being delighted to help with what you believe to be errors. But I'd rather stick with the professional ballistics expert that has the proper equipment to acquire the data to do these calculations, has a degree & has worked for a employer of 1 of the best ballistic facilities on the plant before deciding to start his own business in the field he studied & worked in.

Now it isn't that I don't trust your theory's/calculations/testing equipment & data bbbuuuuuutttttt. When I can clearly see something in a video & you can't, it makes me wonder what you're seeing with your test equipment. And when you change your #'s/calculations/theory's 4 times in 4 posts it makes wonder if you even know what your theory's are & how to calculate them.

I brought to the table professional test results for everyone to share.

Remington35 you're theory's/calculations/tests are just as important, why don't you pick 1 of your 4 posts/theory's & if you could spare some of your time. Help with the calculations with the results you got for lets say post #45 and "about 1 revolution" would be a great place to start.

Thank you for your kind offer & I'm looking forward to your calculations.

[35remington]

I've always maintained the energy of rotation is extremely low and that it has little relevance in wounding effects. Since you are not willing to calculate it, and since you posted a link that quite mistakenly gave it a much higher figure than it actually has, here you go. These will lay your theory and that of your link to rest. If you had known that it was in fact an extremely low figure you would have immediately known that your posted link was and is in error.

"Professional" in an internet sense obviously does not mean the same thing as competent. He used absolutely the wrong assumptions. Clearly "seeing" something in a video does not mean you are attributing it to the right thing, so this will help make up your mind that your observations of effect are being attributed incorrectly to rotational energy, which is in fact so low that it can be entirely absent and you very likely would not notice its absence at all. It is a very, very small fraction of the bullet's energy due to forward motion.

You don't need to wonder any more.

45 ACP rotates turn 1 in 16 inches, or 3/4 turn (.75) per 1 foot.

The circumference of a bullet is 2 Pi times Radius.

Therefore, .451/2 equals radius, or 0.2255 inches. 2 times 3.1415 (Pi) times 0.2255 equals the distance a 45 ACP bullet travels with one revolution, or 1.417 inches. It spins 3/4 revolution per foot of forward travel, or 1.063 inches of rotation per foot of forward travel.

Another way of expressing this is that if the bullet travels 1 foot, the bullet rotates 1.063 inches. The bullet's forward travel is 11.29 times as fast as the rotation (12 divided by 1.063) so the velocity of rotation is quite easy to find......830 fps divided by 11.29, or 73.52 fps for the rotational speed of the bullet.

With me so far? You might want to whistle up your "ballistic expert" and ask him to pay attention, too, so he can get it right next time.

Now, energy calculations square the velocity, so it should be apparent by now that the energy of the bullet is vastly greater than the energy of rotation, since the bullet is going forward 11.29 times as fast as the bullet is rotating. But since your expert got it so wrong, I am compelled to show his errors in his post, and the error in assuming that rotational energy is a great contributor to wounding effect.

But you did ask!

Energy in foot pounds = velocity squared times the weight of the bullet in grains divided by 450,200. Test this calculation against ballistic tables to verify its validity. It may be used, and is used, to calculate the energy of the bullet's forward motion, so please verify it if you would.

Energy of rotation = 73.52 fps squared times 230 grains divided by 450,200. The result is..............

A whopping 2.76 foot pounds. Bring your ballistic expert by so he can get the answer correct in his post.

[btroj]

Even in the site Forrest linked to their calculations showed rotational energy was usually about 5 percent of the kinetic energy. I don't see where 5 percent is really relevant. Heck, even at 10 percent does it matter?

Isn't that the real key? Is it relevant?

Can you really say for fact that a pentagonal pin HP kills significantly better than a traditional round pin HP?

[Forrest r]

I'm sorry remington35 but your post is in "quite considerable error". For some reason you can't see that 1 of your #'s is wrong & then you're using that # to base everything else on.

If you wish I'd be delighted to tell you which # is wrong and even explain why it wrong. It would be more than a reasonable request for you to take another crack at your calculations. And if you do manage to get that # right I'm sure your calculations won't come out like you hoped.

[waksupi]

Even in the site Forrest linked to their calculations showed rotational energy was usually about 5 percent of the kinetic energy. I don't see where 5 percent is really relevant. Heck, even at 10 percent does it matter?

Isn't that the real key? Is it relevant?

Can you really say for fact that a pentagonal pin HP kills significantly better than a traditional round pin HP?

Can anyone really say a hollow point kills any better than a flat point? I doubt it. Dead is dead.

[btroj]

A flat point sure is easier to cast, maybe that is why I use them?

An HP looks nice and can perform well if you mess around and match the alloy to the velocity.

Me? I will stick with FP bullets.

[35remington]

Have at it, Forrest. But it won't turn out like you hoped.

[Forrest r]

Actually that link gives the reloader/hp uses allot of insight into how the spin of a hp affects it's lethality. A lighter/faster 9mm bullet with less energy can equal a 45acp bullet that has more energy in rotation energy because the 9mm has a 1 in 10 twist & the 45 has a 1 in 16.

5 percent isn't much of an average, it's what that pressure does & where it is being used that makes it extremely important. In the link I provided it also averaged all the different test bullets to have 20ft lbs of rotational force, the low was 4 ft lbs & the high was 46 ft lbs.

It isn't a large amount of pressure but it's being dumped/expended inside a would channel affecting soft tissue & organs. Slap a bowl of water with 20ft lbs of energy, you'll get the idea.

If you are using a bullet that has too much penetration then energy is being wasted. A hp is a good way to transfer that energy & shorten the penetration. A hp can only get so big for a given caliber/bullet weight, aids like plastic & rubber in the hp will aid in opening them up quicker. If there's still extra energy left/too much penetration you can always dump it in the rotational energy of a bullet. If you're not getting enough penetration from a bullet, cut down on it's rotation & you'll lose less energy to the rotational energy.

[35remington]

Keep in mind your link was posting that the bullet was turning at 5586 revolutions per minute in the paragraph below figure 4. That's a mere 93 rpm a second, and the actual figure is much higher than that.

If he got that so egregiously wrong (actual rpm is much different than that) then he got a lot else wrong as well. Read it carefully.

Further, show me, exactly, how my rotational velocity is incorrect. Don't quote an incorrect source as your "verification." Do it yourself, please.

[35remington]

Since my rotational velocity is correct, and velocity squared times mass equals energy, that energy calculation is correct as well that I posted.

This is an exercise that asks the participants to think. Don't post internet errors.......do the calculations yourself, please.

[35remington]

Rotational velocity

830 fps forward velocity times .75 revolution per foot equals 622.5 revolutions per second, or 37,350 rpm. No matter what handgun bullet is quoted, the figure of 5586 revolutions per minute is ridiculously slow. A 9mm would spin even faster the 37,350 rpm figure.

What else did the "expert" get wrong?

[35remington]

Forrest, look at this, and view from another perspective. The correct one.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124944-Rotational-vs-Kinetic-energy

Absolutely, positively puts the "rotational energy theory" of wounding effect to rest. Perhaps you'll see that your source has it wrong if another perspective confirming my mathematics is advanced.

[btroj]

I don't buy into the whole "energy dump" thing.

Bullet kill by making holes in things that leak blood. I will take a slow, heavy flat nosed 45-70 bullet thru the lungs any day. May not be fast but it sure is effective.

Let blood out and things die.

[Forrest r]

Well you did ask!

You needn't wonder about your errors any more, your 11.29 is wrong. The bullet spins 1 in 16 in air, it's already been proven/established that a bullet momentum slows quicker in gel then it's rotation (IE the rotation becomes more than 1 in 16). Using 1 # (1 in 16) for all the different 45acp bullets is good thinking but it doesn't work. That why I provided a link to people that have a business & do these things for a living. I'm not affiliated with them but anyone can higher them.

Different bullets ='s different speeds ='s different expansions ='s different resistance from the hp designs ='s different rates of slowing down forward movement ='s different rates of slowing down rotation rotational movement which ='s different #'s for each bullet. That's why there's different #'s for different bullets!!!!

I hate to say it but the only thing I see advanced is your heart rate/blood pressure. Chill out, relax & learn something. I know it looks like the end of the world for a amateur 45acp enthusiast like yourself. But if you read/study harder you'll get better.

Things you should brush up on:
You got the bullets rotation down pretty good but you need to know it's rotation @ the point of impact.
Clean your slow motion camera lens & set your block of gel in front of liner markings so that you can count the # of frames (time) a bullet took to travel a specific distance.
Understand what you read, rotation @ impact is different than rotation before impact. For some odd reason a bullets rotation slows when it impacts something.

Remington35 I could go on for hours giving you pointers but you should actually take your time & try to understand what your reading.

Yup, your right btroj, but it's nice to experament every now & then also.

[35remington]

That didn't seem like much of a correction or revelation.

The calculation of the energy of rotation is before the bullet strikes anything. If the energy of rotation is shown to be a very low figure before it hits the gelatin, it has that energy and no more to dump into the gelatin. It can't dump more energy than it has.

The energy of rotation can't be higher than a very low figure. This much is indisputable. I have nothing to learn from incorrect assertions and calculations, thanks.

The ratio of bullet speed to rotational speed......11.29 to 1......is entirely correct. The total energy it carries due to rotation is all it has and no more.

Basing your counter response on "feeling" won't win you anything. Math is better.

[35remington]

No comment on the other sources that verify your link is incorrect? How about addressing that? The weight of the evidence is not in your favor, and I'd invite you to research further. It's been discussed at length elsewhere, and the energy of rotation is indisputably a tiny fraction of bullet kinetic energy no matter what caliber or bullet or velocity is discussed. Just facts, is all.

I see you have no argument with my calculation of very low energy of rotation......which means you acknowledge said energy is very low. If energy of rotation is low, it cannot do much if any work on the target.

Please confine your counter response to said very low energy please, as your other comments have nothing to do with it at all.

[waksupi]

I can see one of the participants of the conversation doesn't know what he is talking about, and doesn't know when to quit. See if you can pick them out.

I love physics!

[Char-Gar]

Some folks seem to have the great need to have the last word. I guess they believe others think the last word is the correct word, which of course it is not. being the last man standing is not an effective proof of logic or knowledge.

[Forrest r]

The big picture:
There’s bullet casters on this website that buy the cheapest molds they can, use whatever alloys/lead they can find & tumble lube there bullets. Other meticulously control every aspect of their cast bullet from the molds they use to the alloy they make to the lube & sizing of those bullets. Well, commercial bullet mfg.’s are no different. Some use the same material & design for all their jacketed hp bullets while others actually test their products & put out a superior bullet. In the link I posted there was a small sample of bullets tested. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that 1 bullet mfg put out a bullet that had 900+% more rotational energy than a bullet from a different mfg for the same caliber/ actually both calibers.

Hate to say it but a monkey with a mold that cast hp point bullets could easily beat the 5%/20ft lb average. Anyone with a little skill/knowledge can put out a bullet in those calibers that will do 40+ft lbs. If you want to say 40ft lbs of pressure exerted on the walls of a wound channel is nothing then so be it.

The 45acp is actually 1 of the poorest examples of designing a bullet to have rotational force. It slow & has a slow rate of twist. So bad that a venerable round like the 9mm can equal it. The only caliber that I can think of that’s worse is the 44spl, same slow bullets & a 1 in 20 twist. For those it’s old school, reversed hbwc’s (post 76/1st picture). Now you take a bullet like a 357 shot out of 1 of my custom 1 in 12 bbl’s or a contender ‘s 1 in 14 with some hp pushing the bullets around you’ll get up into the 70+ft lb range. Like I posted earlier 20+ inches of penetration isn’t doing anything for me but 13” of penetration with a hole I can stick my fist in & a pill that slams everything with 70ft lbs of force tends to make my day.

I also mentioned centripetal acceleration in post 83 & no one else has talked about it so I might as well put that on the table. As a bullet rotates it has what called centripetal acceleration, it’s a force that exerted primarily on back edges of the expanded hp of the bullet. The faster the bullet spins, the more the force of the centripetal acceleration is exerted on it.

90058

This has allot to do with a hp failing.

Anyway, to each their own, enjoy your testing/range time.

[snuffy]

The big picture:
There’s bullet casters on this website that buy the cheapest molds they can, use whatever alloys/lead they can find & tumble lube there bullets. Other meticulously control every aspect of their cast bullet from the molds they use to the alloy they make to the lube & sizing of those bullets. Well, commercial bullet mfg.’s are no different. Some use the same material & design for all their jacketed hp bullets while others actually test their products & put out a superior bullet. In the link I posted there was a small sample of bullets tested. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that 1 bullet mfg put out a bullet that had 900+% more rotational energy than a bullet from a different mfg for the same caliber/ actually both calibers.

Hate to say it but a monkey with a mold that cast hp point bullets could easily beat the 5%/20ft lb average. Anyone with a little skill/knowledge can put out a bullet in those calibers that will do 40+ft lbs. If you want to say 40ft lbs of pressure exerted on the walls of a wound channel is nothing then so be it.

The 45acp is actually 1 of the poorest examples of designing a bullet to have rotational force. It slow & has a slow rate of twist. So bad that a venerable round like the 9mm can equal it. The only caliber that I can think of that’s worse is the 44spl, same slow bullets & a 1 in 20 twist. For those it’s old school, reversed hbwc’s (post 76/1st picture). Now you take a bullet like a 357 shot out of 1 of my custom 1 in 12 bbl’s or a contender ‘s 1 in 14 with some hp pushing the bullets around you’ll get up into the 70+ft lb range. Like I posted earlier 20+ inches of penetration isn’t doing anything for me but 13” of penetration with a hole I can stick my fist in & a pill that slams everything with 70ft lbs of force tends to make my day.

I also mentioned centripetal acceleration in post 83 & no one else has talked about it so I might as well put that on the table. As a bullet rotates it has what called centripetal acceleration, it’s a force that exerted primarily on back edges of the expanded hp of the bullet. The faster the bullet spins, the more the force of the centripetal acceleration is exerted on it.

90058

This has allot to do with a hp failing.

Anyway, to each their own, enjoy your testing/range time.

I did do a search for "centripetal force", it's another way to say centrifugal force,(I think). Which has been refuted saying it's the force that says an object will tend to stay in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force. It's easily felt when trying to hold onto a merry-go-round, your body wants to go straight, not in a circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force

Now apply that to the edge of a hollow point bullet/boolit, that sideways force is a small force indeed when compared to the penetration, and shock of the front/meplat of the projectile. That's why WFN,(wide flat nose), boolits hit so hard.

This has been an interesting diss cussin, I've had to do some digging to re-learn, fill in the spaces that time causes in memory.

Winter has hit with a vengeance, like I've never seen before. It's 10 above, expected to go below zero tonight, nothing above freezing for the next ten days. I have to test expansion outdoors, so I may not get another chance to do expansion tests until spring.

[MtGun44]

The "high acceleration zone" in the image is much LOWER centripedal acceleration than
the parts farther from the axis of rotation. The force is Rsquared times omega, where
omega is the rotational rate in radians per second.

I call baloney, and won't be spending any more time on this silly thread.

Bill

[btroj]

Gee Bill, aren't you a Professional engineer?

Hmmmmm , tells me what I need to know. I know who I believe.

[35remington]

It is most assuredly silly by now and has been for some time, and I regret having persisted for so long. And it's time to let it go. Thanks MtGun for the kick upside the head.

Verbosity is no substitute for knowing one's subject, and the mathematics to prove the points made here are eighth grade level at the very most. It's obvious that some here will not understand that the energy of rotation is extremely low and that the stated link is in error, but it's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority here do, as the level of competence on this board is considerably higher than most. The phony numbers tossed about as if they had validity are pretty obvious by now and have no relevance in the presence of the very simple mathematics that undeniably prove the point.

Further "discussion" given this level of denial is really silly. I'll knock it off.

[Forrest r]

Nice work snuffy, you're close.

Here's a link explaining the difference.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphysics.stackexchange.com%2Fquest ions%2F8891%2Fhow-does-centrifugal-force-work&ei=THCmUvKpLsy5kQe5jICoCA&usg=AFQjCNG-88VdLwPuKrEKD6pKRklStACsoA&bvm=bv.57799294,d.eW0

Might as well put something else on the the table:
Typically the rotational force is minimal compared to forward force.
There's only so much force a given bullet has.
To create more rotational force you have to take it away from the forward force/direction.
Hp's make it easier to take the forward force & move it to the rotational force.
To do this all you have to do is change the bullets yawl.

In post #103/ 1st picture there is a nose forming die & a hp pin. If you look closely you will see that that hp pin has a slight bend in it. It forms the hp cavity slightly off center which changes the yawl of the bullet. As the bullet spins off center/out of round it creates waves/force on anything that touches it.

Mt44gun, you nailed it, excellent math!!!
I prefer visuals or mental images myself, always liked the one where there's a bunch of ice skaters & it starts with 1 spinning in the center and 2 more join in forming a line & continue to spin, the 2 more, & 2 more, etc. Pretty quick the line is long & the last 2 skaters have to go like crazy to join the line while the original skater in the center is still slowly turning.

As to the "high acceleration zone", I completely agree with what your saying, it is bull!! The bullets is fully open & the most force should be on the outermost edge.

I view it as the bullet started out closed & then opened. As it opened the high acceleration zone moved outward as the bullet's hp grew. As the hp grows the the outer edges of the hp expand outward away from the center of the bullet. The further out the edge goes the greater the force of the centripetal acceleration becomes on that edge. Those areas circled in the "high acceleration zone" is where the bullet has to support/withstand all the pressure of the centripetal acceleration. It doesn't matter if the highest force is exerted on the outer edge of the bullet or where the circles are. That area is critical to the hp staying intact, the edges of a hp can fold back & the hp will still function. Any of those areas circles fail & the hp fails.

That's why it's called the "high acceleration zone" of a bullet. It doesn't matter where the highest point of the centripetal force is, that area has to constantly withstand that force because the design of a hp put those stresses at that point regardless of where the forces are allied on the surface of the bullet.

You see a flat circle that has the greatest force on the outermost edge. I see a circle with forces the whole length of it & 2 pressure points that have to support "all" of the forces/stresses no matter where they are being applied.

Ya know your right, it's time to put this one to rest. I never realized that the anatomy, mechanics & function of a hp could be so misleading.

[PalmettoShooter]

Bullets don't spin like propellers. They turn no faster than the twist rate of the barrel. I don't know right off-hand the normal twist rate of a 45, but I doubt it's much faster than 1-12,14 That means one turn in the chest cavity of an average deer. Forget about bullet buzz saws, the turn rate is very slow.

35 Remington, congrats on doing a bit of necropsy to find out how your boolits were performing. I do---or did the same when I was shooting just about any game animal, and some pests.

I've done some testing based off of a theory of mine. I figured that while the bullet is rotating at the rate of twist the barrel has, it will continue rotating (obviously slowing down from resistance and friction) at that rate when it strikes flesh (ie the velocity will slow but the rotation will continue, albeit at a quickly decreasing rate).

Naturally I tested this by loading up some Black Talon 147gr +P+ into my glock 19, drinking some beer, and shooting some pork shoulders. Inspecting the tissue damage in the wound cavity revealed that my hypothesis was correct, and now I call it Joel's Theory of Dammit I Was Going To Eat That. Ok, so I shoot food a lot. I have a problem.

Anyways, you have to think that a bullet spinning (hypothetically) at 1-12 twist at 1000 fps is technically pulling off 60,000 rpm. When it hits soft but resistant tissue the rotation remains but the vertical travel slows, hence getting all kinds of messed up. If you don't believe me put a recovered hollow point into a drill press, put it up to as fast as it'll go, and stick you finger in (don't really!).

My trick... getting shot as little as possible.

Joel

[C. Latch]

Since my rotational velocity is correct, and velocity squared times mass equals energy, that energy calculation is correct as well that I posted.

This is an exercise that asks the participants to think. Don't post internet errors.......do the calculations yourself, please.

I don't know you, I am new here, and I have no bones to pick with anyone here, but I think you are using the formula for kinetic energy to calculate rotational energy, and they are not the same.

I do agree with your larger point that the total rotational energy of any given projectile is relatively small compared to its kinetic energy.

[seabreeze133]

Two deer w/H & G 68 w/7 gr Unique. Complete penetration behind shoulder. No expansion. At about 25 yds each time. Both times was hunting w/30-06 and felt too close w/the rifle and was able to get 45 out. DRT.

seabreeze

[35remington]

C. is quite correct. The very most the rotational energy can be is similar to kinetic energy, which is the same formula as kinetic energy used here, which is the energy of linear motion. This is easiest to convert to and prove in a way that can be followed and shows the very most the rotational energy can be. Depending upon the shape and solidity of the rotating object, rotational energy may be even less than the kinetic energy used here, but that's a lot harder to get into unless we're talking about a regularly shaped object which a bullet is not. Moment of inertia is the hard part to figure, and depends upon the distribution of the mass around the plane the object is rotating. Not all parts of a bullet are equidistant from the axis of rotation.

A cylinder would be a lot easier to figure, but a bullet is not a cylinder.

Did not mean to prolong this thread, and the point is somewhat belabored now anyway, which is that the energy of rotation of pistol bullets (and in fact all shoulder fired projectiles) is really low.

The energy figure is as low as or even potentially somewhat lower than the figure posted. It makes the point that it's a low figure. Trying to stick to 8th grade mathematics here.

[MtGun44]

35 Rem -
If you care to do this calc, break the cylinder down into pieces and then calc the
rotational energy of each piece using the mass and the radius of the CG and
the angular velocity, and the sum the pieces. Makes it much easier, but a bit of work.

When I saw the "PhD" pointing to locations with a smaller radius than other parts
and saying this is the highest rotational energy zone. . . . . . That was it. Never
went back and even bothered with the other stuff. Sometimes, PhD=Piled higher and Deeper.

btroj - guilty as charged. I picked up a couple of engineering degrees and have been
paying the bills that way since 1975. About to move to the 'semi-retired engineer' category
one of these months.

Bill

[dondiego]

I have been casting and shooting for over 50 years and I don't have much of a clue about what you guys are talking about. I am no dummy - BS degree in biology/chemistry, but there is one thing that really works for me and that is practicing a lot and placing the bullet where it needs to be. Seems to get the job done. Don't know about energy dump or rotational effect. Sure kills 'em though when you hit them in the right spot.

[Char-Gar]

I have been casting and shooting for over 50 years and I don't have much of a clue about what you guys are talking about. I am no dummy - BS degree in biology/chemistry, but there is one thing that really works for me and that is practicing a lot and placing the bullet where it needs to be. Seems to get the job done. Don't know about energy dump or rotational effect. Sure kills 'em though when you hit them in the right spot.

Ain't that the truth! I am another 50 plus years caster, with a Bachelor's degree, a Master's degree and a Doctor's degree and most of the recent posts are gibberish and have nothing to do with handloading cast bullets in the 45 ACP for killing deer with their mastery of minutia.

I have cast, loaded and shot well over 1/4 million rounds of 45 ACP through a score of 1911 pistols and this thread is just plain weird and a working definition of "over thinking". I get the idea it is some guys trying to impress other guys.

[cbrick]

Don't know about energy dump or rotational effect. Sure kills 'em though when you hit them in the right spot.

So very true. I'm fond of the forward momentum myself, especially so when it comes out the other side and they bleed on both sides.

Rotation or boolit spin? I'm all in favor of it, keeps the boolit going where I aimed it.

Rick

[Animal]

1. So I'll conclude that a 45 caliber chunk of lead weighing approximately 230 grains and traveling at approximately 850 fps should eliminate almost any foreseeable threat from ill-willed bipedal critters that inhabit the west-central portion of Georgia.

2. Expansion with a boolit like the 45 is a moot point considering its size

3. Trying to get controlled expansion out of a non-hp is probably a waste of time, energy and resources.

4. Boolits hurt even if they spin slowly.

[btroj]

Energy dump? Isn't that what drinking too much Red bull causes?

Let blood out and things die

[Char-Gar]

1. So I'll conclude that a 45 caliber chunk of lead weighing approximately 230 grains and traveling at approximately 850 fps should eliminate almost any foreseeable threat from ill-willed bipedal critters that inhabit the west-central portion of Georgia.

2. Expansion with a boolit like the 45 is a moot point considering its size

3. Trying to get controlled expansion out of a non-hp is probably a waste of time, energy and resources.

4. Boolits hurt even if they spin slowly.

Yep...you got it right.

[M-Tecs]

a bullet spinning (hypothetically) at 1-12 twist at 1000 fps is technically pulling off 60,000 rpm.

Still only rotates once in 12" penetration. The forward energy is far greater than the rotational energy so in solid matter my bet is the rotation stops before the penetration does.

[fastfire]

Still only rotates once in 12" penetration. The forward energy is far greater than the rotational energy so in solid matter my bet is the rotation stops before the penetration does.

FWIW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2taJFU1vG8

[fastfire]

Still only rotates once in 12" penetration. The forward energy is far greater than the rotational energy so in solid matter my bet is the rotation stops before the penetration does.

FWIW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2taJFU1vG8

[snuffy]

Great eye candy Mtgun44, can't get enough of that picture!!!

Interesting about how "slow" the 45acp's bullet rotation is. It's only 37,000rpm or 600+rps from a standard 230gr 830fps ball ammo. When that bullet hits something it's spinning @ 600+ revolutions per second. Anyone who says a 45acp will only spin once or about once in something as thick/wide as a deer doen't have a clue about the 45acp cartridge. Anyone care to count past 1? A 200gr 45acp bullet

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DA8X qAMn4Wqo&ei=GcqhUpf8Bs_okAeMzoHICg&usg=AFQjCNGL8g_0T0MOUT7I1x49Zk569QcS1Q

A 230gr 45apc bullet

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&ved=0CGQQtwIwCQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd2t aJFU1vG8&ei=GcqhUpf8Bs_okAeMzoHICg&usg=AFQjCNHeRjF4Cdvo847VIEKEydikGQyGVA

As far as a standard hp over a penta point hp, that's been proven decades ago. That's why all the mfg's are making hp's that open up with spears/talons/pedals or whatever else you want to call them. The penta's will open up as big as their standard round hp cousins but because the penta's are not a solid mass (solid frontal area) they will have less resistance. Same weight, same speed, less resistance ='s deeper penetration.

The "blender effect" is a side bonus of these types of hp's, they send lateral shock wave out as they spin (more than 1 revolution). This is an excellent video that shows the lateral waves in the ballistic gel, you can actually count the # of revolutions the bullet did in the gel & visually see the waves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HRtfkXFbmY&list=PLE0130DB4E7AF8B48&index=1

Penta style hp with it's pedals, arms, spears, talons or whatever you want to call them have been out for decades, used by every major sd ammo mfg in every handgun caliber for a reason.


FWIW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2taJFU1vG8

Uh-huh, you didn't read the entire thread,,--did you?

I don't think we convinced those that believe in the propeller/blender effect of bullet spin in media.

[loaded303]

Bad to the bone

[Forrest r]

Uh-huh, you didn't read the entire thread,,--did you?

I don't think we convinced those that believe in the propeller/blender effect of bullet spin in media.

Save your breath, it's hard for most people to understand what's truely involved with the mechanics of a hp & how they function. Here's a classic example, mt44gun is supposed to have 2 degree & this is what he knows after looking at this.

101890

The "high acceleration zone" in the image is much LOWER centripedal acceleration than
the parts farther from the axis of rotation. The force is Rsquared times omega, where
omega is the rotational rate in radians per second.

I call baloney, and won't be spending any more time on this silly thread.

Bill


2 degrees and he managed to figure out that the "high acceleration zone" has a MUCH LOWER centripedal acceleration than the furthest end (open end) of the hp, BRILLIANT!!!! What amazes me is that his 2 degrees can't see that it doesn't matter how much greater the force is on the furthest point from the axis is (outer open edge of the hp that is furthest from the center of the bullet). The force in the high acceleration zone will always be higher/greater. The high acceleration zone supports the furthest point from the center/axis of the bullet.

Last I knew 10 year old 5th graders were taught about levers & this is nothing more than applied force to a high stress area. Don't think so then try this:
Take a 20# sack of seed, hold your arms out & have someone set that 20# bag on your outstretched arms right next to your shoulders (high acceleration zone) and hold it there for 1 minute. Take a break & then pick up a 5' long 2# board and again hold your arms out and extend the 2# board out with your hands and this time put a 18# bag of seed on the end of the 5' board that is outstretched by your arms/hands (the outer edge of the bullet furthest from the axis/center of the bullet) & try to hold it there for 1 minute.

It's that simple, doesn't matter if more force applied to the outer edge of the bullets the high stress zone has to hold/withstand that force or the hp will fail. And just like with any other lever out there, the further away/longer the lever, the greater the force is multiplied. If a guy with 2 degrees can't figure this one out I really don't expect other people to.

forrest r

[loaded303]

I just load to my gun spec, shoot, and try not to over think too much on the rest.