THE Miracle load ?

[myg30]

Did I miss something last night when I went to bed ? Do most of you see the same thing as I do ? Does it NOT BOTHER YOU ?
I frequent several forums but im on this one the most as my casting trumps all for me, I just LOVE IT !! PERIOD !!
While reading on other forums I see more and more "new reloaders" asking for load data. Maybe im sensitive or something but do they not work up loads any more ? Is there a "MIRACLE LOAD" data that works for ALL FIREARMS ? Yes there are a few old timers that refer them to the loading books and suggest reading but it seems more and more guys just give out "THEIR " miracle load.
Let me expand some, IM NOT referring to guys here that were loading cast at Gettysburg and need a load for smokeless, im talking about NEW RELOADERS, guys with 2 posts, 6 posts any posts but NEVER DROPED A GRAIN OF POWDER BEFORE ! EVER !! The guys that are not sure what .10 grain is called.
Most on here ask for help, lots of questions, suggestions with loads pertaining to cast but are not new to loading. Heck, Im no expert and ask all the questions I can. I never looked for the one load moa bullet combo in anything.

I try to smelt out side, run a fan too. Am I going through " LEADAPAUSE" ? Missed my Paxil ? Just being an old grump ? ( nothing meant grumpy).

Im OK Now, Sorry. MIKE

[Kraschenbirn]

Nope, Mike...you're not being an old grump. This topic has been kicked around more'n once on this forum in the last couple years. Lots of newbies out there, without a clue of what they're really getting themselves into, but looking for 'instant results' without doing a lick of research or actual load development. Unlike some other forums, most of the 'old timers' here will usually try to point 'em in the right direction but I'm afraid some us can get a bit 'cross' when the same guy asks the same question two or three times 'cause he ain't satisfied with the answers he's received.

Bill

[bhn22]

I'm astonished at how many don't buy loading manuals anymore. A list of numbers on the internet is not an oracle by any means. A guy on the Ruger Forum was soundly rebuked by a number of people because a beginner was asking for load data, and he told him pretty directly that he shouldn't be trying this without doing first hand research, and he told him to go buy a manual. There was much handwringing and sadness over that post, plus a followup post taking him indirectly to task for being a meanie.

It's almost as bad there as the S&W Forum at times.

[btroj]

Buy a manual? Those cost money and reading is boring. So much easier to see what the long range tactical/precision mall ninja internet/gun shop experts are saying is THE load for everything.

I don't buy into this garbage at all.

Want to know what will shoot well in your gun? Go find out! That is what I would do.

Lazy pieces of fecal material who want instant gratification have a tendency to really piss me off.

[opos]

Got a friend that got "into guns" just a couple of years ago..he'd not shot much of anything since he was young...and he ain't young. We did some shooting now and then...he is a "buyer" and "accumulator" and has a sizable set of safes filled to overflowing. He's asked me on a number of occasions about getting into reloading...I have always suggested that he pick up a book like the ABC's of Reloading or the Hornady or Lee books to just get a basic idea of what goes on...got no time for that...don't want to read...want to load. I've just quit having conversations about loading with him..told him I figured he was not a person that would get much out of reloading as it's a hobby (at least for me) that brings quiet times...concentration...the need to read and follow orders and constant testing with this gun and that gun to develop safe and accurate loads....and I didn't feel he has the temperment for it...and I'd not be involved in him making a problem for himself or others...his attitude is "ready , fire, aim" and I don't think that's going to lead to a very safe reloader. He can afford all the factory fodder he can shoot up so that's a way for him to go...buy different weights, powder strength (+p, etc) and manufacturers and see what works best...doesn't even want to do that..just wants someone to tell him what will work the best and be the hottest..We talk other things these days.

[waco]

Buy a manual? Those cost money and reading is boring. So much easier to see what the long range tactical/precision mall ninja internet/gun shop experts are saying is THE load for everything.

I don't buy into this garbage at all.

Want to know what will shoot well in your gun? Go find out! That is what I would do.

Lazy pieces of fecal material who want instant gratification have a tendency to really piss me off.

Come on btroj!
Tell us how you REALLY feel! :)

All kidding aside.
I agree. I love reloading manuals and have a dozen or so from the '50s to present.
Always a ton of info, especially the Lyman cast bullet handbooks.
I'll check the internet on occasion for some things, but, like most stuff on the web....I'm leery. (And by that I mean all of you! :))

[BABore]

The "Miracle Load" = the Miracle alloy, hardness, size, lube, mold, GC or no GC, pot temp, mold temp, or how many fricken lbs of WW's come in 5 gallon bucket!

Most are just too plain lazy to do their own work and figure it out for themselves. I will teach, offer help, and give direction, but never do someone elses work for them.

[45sixgun]

I'm astonished at how many don't buy loading manuals anymore. A list of numbers on the internet is not an oracle by any means. A guy on the Ruger Forum was soundly rebuked by a number of people because a beginner was asking for load data, and he told him pretty directly that he shouldn't be trying this without doing first hand research, and he told him to go buy a manual. There was much handwringing and sadness over that post, plus a followup post taking him indirectly to task for being a meanie.


Lazy pieces of fecal material who want instant gratification have a tendency to really piss me off.

I get the OP'ers point. But I think it's misguided to overreact to this. I don't see anything wrong with asking for loads. I also don't see anything wrong with NOT buying a reloading manual. I've been reloading for a couple of years now (.44 mag, .44 spec, .38, .357 mag, .45 lc, .45 acp, and hopefully 30-06 very soon). I don't have a manual, never bought one. Don't see the need and would rather spend the money on something else. All of the load info and data one will ever need is readily available online (or on the bottle of powder you buy). If you have a decent head on your shoulders, you'll do just fine. Just because you ask for a load doesn't mean you're an idiot or a lazy piece of fecal material. And if I find a nice load, I'm happy to share it in the hopes that it will help someone else achieve his goal.

['74 sharps]

My smokeless load data is available from the powder manufacturer's website for smokeless. For my black powder loads, full case, wad, bullet, shoot, repeat. Just keeping it simple.

[Shiloh]

As a younger reloader, I bought into the miracle load, "magic bullet" concept. Data from the Ken Waters books, Gun Magazines, word of mouth, etc. I would upe with 15 powder, bullets from all manufacturers, different primers and brass, accuracy techniques and the lot.

Years later, I learned every rifle and shooter is different, and what works great for one fellows rifle, won't work for squat in another. Same with handguns.

I found accurate loads through load development and settled on just a few powders.

Shiloh

[45sixgun]

Some guys have very limited time and very limited resources. Does that mean they should find another hobby? Of course not! I guarantee most if not all of them would love to have the time and resources to work up loads and try every variation possible to get the "miracle load." Is there something wrong with them for asking to benefit from someone else's work and experience? I don't think so at all.

[Fluxed]

Its just modern times. The internet is a valid research tool - everyone here is using or has used it for that.

Some mediums of information, like reloading manuals printed on dead trees, is pretty out of fashion. The problem is that some of the very excellent articles on "how to reload" that we used to see in manuals is not available on the 'net. There's a lot of BS but not much that is authoritative.

The result is a lot of pokin' around asking questions on the 'net. And mostly by beginners. Asking a lot of questions is good. The dumb ones don't ask and screw something up, then quit.

We all were beginners once.
Pretend its your son's buddy in person and suddenly its not so grating.
Be nice, answer the questions if you have sound advice to give.

[btroj]

Some guys have very limited time and very limited resources. Does that mean they should find another hobby? Of course not! I guarantee most if not all of them would love to have the time and resources to work up loads and try every variation possible to get the "miracle load." Is there something wrong with them for asking to benefit from someone else's work and experience? I don't think so at all.

In this case, yes.

It isn't about saving time or money. It is about a lack of desire to actively learn.

[singleshot]

$11 to $25 for a reloading manual is a pittance for the information that can be gleaned therein, period! No amount of website data can compare. It's just that simple. If somebody wants something that will "work" the internet is fine. For everything else, there is still BOOKS. After all, in the end, a couple books will determine all our fates, not the internet. Anyone who wants to excel in our craft, must own several reloading manuals, one is NEVER enough.

[Love Life]

People who don't buy reloading manuals, and then ask reloading questions, make me want to punch a baby seal.

It's not JUST PROVEN LOAD DATA that is contained in the books. You get taught HOW TO LOAD barney style. If everybody read a manual, the "Why did my bullet seat so deep" question would never get asked.

[Love Life]

Is there something wrong with them for asking to benefit from someone else's work and experience? I don't think so at all.

To me? Yes. It smacks of laziness, and a brings upon images of a double charge. I worked hard for my load data. I'm not giving it away, and I load near the ragged edge for a couple of them so they more than likely aren't safe in your gun. Like my BLC-2 load in LC brass under a 175 SMK. That one's a bit hot.

[bbqncigars]

Whilst I still think a manual that covers the basics should be required reading, I realize that many noobs would have to order one. The net gives instant gratification, and can be just as good as long as said noob searches wisely. There are some useful reloading videos on the net that would have helped me when I started out. The problem is that some newcomers are too lazy to even use the net as a research tool. *sigh*

[45sixgun]

$11 to $25 for a reloading manual is a pittance for the information that can be gleaned therein, period! No amount of website data can compare. It's just that simple. If somebody wants something that will "work" the internet is fine. For everything else, there is still BOOKS.

What's the difference between getting the exact same information from a book or from a web site? I've looked at the books and the information is the same.


After all, in the end, a couple books will determine all our fates, not the internet. Anyone who wants to excel in our craft, must own several reloading manuals, one is NEVER enough.

I don't know about the fate thing, but a sheet of paper printed from my computer is no different than a book. In fact it's handier. And excelling...what does that mean?


People who don't buy reloading manuals, and then ask reloading questions, make me want to punch a baby seal.

That made me laugh.

[Love Life]

If you do not breath from your mouth, then getting started reloading without a mentor is perfectly possible and acceptable. Especially if you have a manual....

I started in a condo, with no youtube, no mentor, with a Dillon 550B and a Sierra Manual. I survived.

[462]

No manual needed to add to the ignore list.

Click, click. Done.

[gray wolf]

I am quite taken back with some of the defenses given. To come on a forum like this and say you don't have a load book and don't want one ?? and would rather spend the money for something else ??
Makes me feel like an idiot for helping some folks, or should I say an enabler.
But be it as it may, I have known many people that just go through life sucking the energy out of other people.
When one person stops giving they just move along to the next person and on they go--doing and not really learning. Some people don't want to learn, going through the motions is enough for them.

To me it's pitiful to listen to the excuses, and the trouble some folks go through to defend there actions.
The people that have been in the shooting game as many of us have must do a lot of head shaking.

[gray wolf]

People who don't buy reloading manuals, and then ask reloading questions, make me want to punch a baby seal.
A little baby Harp seal at that, you know the little white ones.

[dbosman]

I'm going to put a bunch of blame on stores that stock components and tools, but can't be bothered to make space for manufacturers manuals, brochures, load data, or catalogs. That goes for on and off line stores.

A local store has powder and shot, but no manuals for the powder in stock. No shot shell wads or hulls.
They have $4.00 a pound lead, but no longer stock molds - due to online vendors.
They have a couple of bags of NOS brass, no presses in stock, and no shelf space for them anymore.
They do have a lot of $400 .22 rifles.

[btroj]

I learned at the hand of a guy who had been loading for decades. First thingI was made to do as read the sections in multiple manuals on the functions of each die, about headspace, and about safety.

If a guy isn't willing to put forth basic levels of effort on expense then why should I?

Want to learn, then learn. It is an active process.

[jonp]

If you do not breath from your mouth, then getting started reloading without a mentor is perfectly possible and acceptable. Especially if you have a manual....

I started in a condo, with no youtube, no mentor, with a Dillon 550B and a Sierra Manual. I survived.
I started in my camp. No power, running water or indoor plumbing. I used a manual, lee loader and some dippers. No advice or someone to ask.
What does this prove? Only that some do alright on their own. Some need more guidence than others.
I've asked about loading data a couple of times. I do this to save money so I don't try something that others have tried and doesn't work. Also, if I ask about a load for say a 200gr 45acp boolit and 75% of the answers are a variation of 4.6 gr 231 then I have a definate place to start as guys who have shot thousands of rounds more than I have seem to agree on it.
Nothing wrong with asking for advice on boolits and powders

[geargnasher]

I started with a brand-new Speer #11 that came with my first kit. I read it AND reloaded by kerosene lamp at night after homework. I had no phone, no mentor (at first), and used a lot of Lee dies. How kids today figure out how to wipe their butts without an app or fifteen different utoob videos is anyone's guess.

I think the OP's point may somewhat have been missed. I took the rant to be about armchair experts providing load data that they have no experience with, but probably read on a forum or blog somewhere.

People should NOT ask for loads. One perfect example was just a couple days ago a well-meaning gentleman provided some load data for a .44 special, but what was posted was actually correct 44 MAGNUM load data. The error was promptly pointed out by an experienced member and the correction made, but still the mistake happened, as they do because we are all human. RTFM. Preferably several, and consult on-line powder manufacturer's data too just for added insurance, because that can be updated in real time if errors are noticed.

In no way am I saying we shouldn't discuss loads, powders, or putting things in the cases in addition to powders, or stepping outside the bounds of loading manual data (using powders that aren't listed, for example), that's part of the hobby for a lot of us, I'm just saying those who ask something like "I just cast these boolits, what's a good load for my .38 Special?" need to be answered with some polite questions rather than a recipe that they may not even know how to duplicate.

Gear

[bhn22]

The best advice I ever got dated back to before the internet, aka, the dark ages. I had a lot of questions for an experienced reloader, and he told me that the best advice he ever got was to buy a reloading manual, tear out all the reloading data pages, then read the rest of the book a couple of times. I think he got this out of a magazine somewhere. So I went home and read my Hornady manual.
My knowledge increased greatly. Then I bought a Lyman manual, and read that. I never did tear out any pages, but I became a reloading manual juggernaut. Now I have dozens of them, and I've at the very least, skimmed them all. Most have been completely read, cover to cover.

[45sixgun]

What does this prove? Only that some do alright on their own. Some need more guidence than others.
I've asked about loading data a couple of times. I do this to save money so I don't try something that others have tried and doesn't work. Also, if I ask about a load for say a 200gr 45acp boolit and 75% of the answers are a variation of 4.6 gr 231 then I have a definate place to start as guys who have shot thousands of rounds more than I have seem to agree on it.
Nothing wrong with asking for advice on boolits and powders

Some common sense from Planet Reality.


I am quite taken back with some of the defenses given. To come on a forum like this and say you don't have a load book and don't want one ?? and would rather spend the money for something else ??
Makes me feel like an idiot for helping some folks, or should I say an enabler.
But be it as it may, I have known many people that just go through life sucking the energy out of other people.
When one person stops giving they just move along to the next person and on they go--doing and not really learning. Some people don't want to learn, going through the motions is enough for them.

To me it's pitiful to listen to the excuses, and the trouble some folks go through to defend there actions.
The people that have been in the shooting game as many of us have must do a lot of head shaking.

Better eat your garlic....

[btroj]

Most of us don't ask for loads because we develop them or find them ourselves.

Think with your mind, not your mouth

[dverna]

I started reloading before the internet - in fact, before personal computers. I read magazines and loading manuals. No one in my family shot. I had no mentor. I started with a Lee Target loader for my .222.

I disagree with some of you on "magic loads" - at least with jacketed bullets. Match ammo performs well in almost any rifle. Sure it can be bettered by good reloading but a match load will shoot very well - so there are "magic" loads that work most of the time. If not "magic" they at least provide a good starting point. Cast is a different story as there are more variables.

But I agree that many of the new guys are not willing to do the grunt work. It is this grunt work that forms the foundation to understanding load development. I guess that makes me a grumpy old phart too.


Don Verna

[cbrick]

I also don't see anything wrong with NOT buying a reloading manual. I've been reloading for a couple of years now (.44 mag, .44 spec, .38, .357 mag, .45 lc, .45 acp, and hopefully 30-06 very soon). I don't have a manual, never bought one. Don't see the need and would rather spend the money on something else.


Some guys have very limited time and very limited resources. Does that mean they should find another hobby? Of course not! I guarantee most if not all of them would love to have the time and resources to work up loads and try every variation possible to get the "miracle load." Is there something wrong with them for asking to benefit from someone else's work and experience? I don't think so at all.


Its just modern times. Some mediums of information, like reloading manuals printed on dead trees, is pretty out of fashion.

Perfect examples of no clue as to what can be gained from books, says a lot about our school system. No wonder America is in the toilet. Books out of fashion . . . Aside from being profoundly ignorant that's a scary mindset.

That is the mindset of "I have had everything handed to me all my life, why should I strain myself learning something when you should just give it to me. Now".

If this is typical of todays American youth there is no hope, the fat lady is singing.

Rick

[geargnasher]

There isn't and she is. I absolutely hate it.

Gear

[Love Life]

Can you shoot a boolit designed for gas checks without gas checks?

[btroj]

Nope. No more lead being smelted so you can't even make the boolit.

Not all kids today are this way but too many are. Mine knows better. She understands how to learn. That came from family, not schools.

Imagine that, I raised my own kid and developed my own loads. How novel!

[45sixgun]

Perfect examples of no clue as to what can be gained from books, says a lot about our school system. No wonder America is in the toilet. Books out of fashion . . . Aside from being profoundly ignorant that's a scary mindset.

That is the mindset of "I have had everything handed to me all my life, why should I strain myself learning something when you should just give it to me. Now".

If this is typical of todays American youth there is no hope, the fat lady is singing.

Rick

What's even scarier is I'm a high school English teacher!!!! Watch out baby seals....

Thanks for all of the complements, Rick (reason America is in the toilet, profoundly ignorant, scary mindset, entitled, immediate gratification, hopeless....).

This just keeps getting more entertaining....

[cbrick]

Hhmmm . . . An English teacher and you see no reason to get a book.

Thanks for making my point so perfectly.

Rick

[45sixgun]

It's a wonder how I've had such a great time casting and reloading for two years without a manual!

I guess they were right....ignorance is bliss.

p.s. And thanks to some of you guys for being generous enough to give me online advice. One of you even sent me powder and bullets to try, which led to my very accurate pet load for the .45 LC.

[45sixgun]

Hhmmm . . . An English teacher and you see no reason to get a book.

Thanks for making my point so perfectly.

Rick

Yep! Because newbie reloaders (and clueless English teachers) won't get a reloading manual, our country is going to hell. Great logic, Rick.

[btroj]

It's OK Rick. I can teach Literature now, I read the excerpts of a few classics online and asked my 2 sisters-in-law with degrees in Emglish for some pointers. I now know "the jist"!

Man, a guy in education who doesn't understand the value of education! Learning is an active process, least it was when I went to school. The fact the teacher doesn't see a problem with spoon feeding tells me all I can stomach.

Buy a book. Read the book. Understand, comprehend, know. Reloading isn't like making a dang cake, it isn't all cookbook. It takes time, practice, knowledge, and personal experience.

I suppose of you want to just throw some rounds down range it is fine but most of us are beyond that. We craft ammunition. We are hand loaders. We want to master the craft.

[Love Life]

45sixgun- All joking aside, a reloading manual is worth the money and is an important item to have.

A reloading manual has about 50 you tube videos worth of info in one handy spot. A reloading manual has about 1,000,000 "Why did my round not chamber" answers in handy spot. A reloading manual covers it all from primer types, to case cleaning, to setting up dies, to powders, to trouble shooting, to the differences in crimps, etc. They are worth having on the bench and reading them would eliminate 2/3 of the erroneous questions asked on reloading forums.

****DISCLAIMER****
I DO NOT HIT BABY SEALS. I HAVE NEVER HARMED A BABY SEAL. HOWEVER; I WOULD ROCK A SEAL SKIN HAT IF IT WAS LEGALLY OBTAINED
****DISCLAIMER****

[btroj]

It's a wonder how I've had such a great time casting and reloading for two years without a manual!

I guess they were right....ignorance is bliss.

p.s. And thanks to some of you guys for being generous enough to give me online advice. One of you even sent me powder and bullets to try, which led to my very accurate pet load for the .45 LC.

And you will not even take the time to learn enough to pay it forward. Wow, I love a taker.

[Love Life]

I'll give you my pet load for 308. You have to use LC brass though. Only use it in the winter...

[btroj]

Not taking that load. Blew a primer once in heat. Learned that H450 doesn't like hot. Getting my mother ready for deer season, her first ever, and she opens the bolt and there sits a primer. Case extracted fine but didn't have a primer. We stopped shooting.

[Love Life]

Yep. Snuck up on a load of BLC-2 in the winter time that shot amazing. Just amazing. Late spring was a whole other story. Evil, temperature sensitive powders.

[cbrick]

Yep! Because newbie reloaders (and clueless English teachers) won't get a reloading manual, our country is going to hell. Great logic, Rick.

Thanks for making my point so perfectly . . . Again!

It's not in the slightest surprising that you cannot understand the logic. You call yourself a teacher and see no reason for books. Perhaps if you had the benefit of learning critical thinking from books you would be able to connect the dots.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I'm afraid that thinking critically, like the ability to reason, is usually not automatic to human beings. Without training, we would never advance past finding foot and mating.

Gear

[Love Life]

Finding food and mating. What else does a man need in life?

[btroj]

Foot or food? My feet are attached and therefore easy to find my friend!:)

Critical thinking is becoming a lost art.

Question everything. Never stop seeking knowledge.

[btroj]

Finding food and mating. What else does a man need in life?

Clean, dry toilet paper is good too.

[Recluse]

I get the OP'ers point. But I think it's misguided to overreact to this. I don't see anything wrong with asking for loads. I also don't see anything wrong with NOT buying a reloading manual. I've been reloading for a couple of years now (.44 mag, .44 spec, .38, .357 mag, .45 lc, .45 acp, and hopefully 30-06 very soon). I don't have a manual, never bought one. Don't see the need and would rather spend the money on something else.


Some guys have very limited time and very limited resources. Does that mean they should find another hobby? Of course not! I guarantee most if not all of them would love to have the time and resources to work up loads and try every variation possible to get the "miracle load." Is there something wrong with them for asking to benefit from someone else's work and experience? I don't think so at all.

I'm glad you have this figured out with your staggering two or so years of ample, in-depth experience. I'm also glad you seem to view Cast Boolits as little more than an internet resource for the taking with little to no obligation to give back.

Of course, giving back would take time and resources that could be better spent on other things. :rolleyes:

So, in a nutshell you think that because I've got more than forty years of reloading experience and a helluva lot of manuals and physical reading and thousands upon thousands of hours of shooting and testing loads under my belt that there is exactly zero reason why you should have to break a sweat in your hobby trying to learn and improve--that I and others should just hand over everything we've learned because you don't want to spend the time or money or resources doing for yourself when we've already done it?

As the original poster intoned, we're seeing a huge influx of this attitude around here among the new members. The sad by-product of it is that it's causing more and more of us to virtually ignore any posts or questions offered by members with a join date of just the past couple years or so because we're seeing the same attitude out of so many of them.

SMFH.

Say hello to Frank.

:coffee:

[357maximum]

Talk about dissapointment...I was doing an internet search for the Miracle Load that would work in all my guns from 32S&W Long to the 45/70 and all that popped up was this thread...and there ain't no stinking Miracle Load posted nowhere abouts here....what a bummer. :mrgreen: Guess I will have to look somewheres else for dat load dat is much more gooder er den da rest. :lol:

[geargnasher]

Oh, yeah, ONE freakin' typo in how many thousands of posts and SUMBODY's gotta go all grammar-Nazi on me. :bigsmyl2: ....and of course from the guy I regularly bag on for his rather troubled relationship with the ipad and auto-correct........Touche'.

LL, I find it rather difficult to argue with your point, although less so the older I get.

Gear

[geargnasher]

JD, is there a site limit to the number of people who can join Frank?

Gear

[Recluse]

JD, is there a site limit to the number of people who can join Frank?

Gear

When we have those annual fundraisers to update the server, the Mods send me a separate fundraiser to update the server space just for Frank's special room.

He's a party animal I hear.

Everytime we get a flux of new "panic members" here because they can't find ammo or projectiles anywhere, the room starts getting crowded. Pretty soon, I'm gonna have to hire a band to keep 'em all entertained.

:coffee:

[AlaskanGuy]

I love my old manuals(1950's), but never realized how awesome they really were until i started casting.... Been reloading for several decades, but the cast info in these manuals is awesome.... I just never bothered with cast before.... Now, i only have J's for the 243's. And that is all, and i am researching that switch as we speak... I am cast now till the end... There is so much in the old manuals that i never bothered reading before... Now i read it, and read it again, and then put them into digital format so i can read them All the time... :castmine:

[geargnasher]

Dang, no need for all that when a handful of Samsung Galaxy S4s, a hot spot, and a box of pop tarts will do for at least a week.

Am I getting cynical?

Nah. Couldn't be.

Gear

[btroj]

Good ol' Frank. Been gone a year or more and still so well remembered!

Cynical doesn't begin to describe me anymore. I have little tolerance for stupidity and no trouble voicing it.

[Love Life]

"I have many reloading manuals, and my reloading room smells of rich mahogany."

Paraphrased from "Anchorman"

[45sixgun]

It's OK Rick. I can teach Literature now, I read the excerpts of a few classics online and asked my 2 sisters-in-law with degrees in Emglish for some pointers. I now know "the jist"!

Man, a guy in education who doesn't understand the value of education! Learning is an active process, least it was when I went to school. The fact the teacher doesn't see a problem with spoon feeding tells me all I can stomach.

Buy a book. Read the book. Understand, comprehend, know. Reloading isn't like making a dang cake, it isn't all cookbook. It takes time, practice, knowledge, and personal experience.

I suppose of you want to just throw some rounds down range it is fine but most of us are beyond that. We craft ammunition. We are hand loaders. We want to master the craft.

Whew, some of you guys get a bit touchy over this. Are you getting royalties on these manuals? So I don't want to master the craft because I don't do it exactly your way? I've been shooting SA revolvers (just got my first rifle), and of those revolvers I've spent my time almost exclusively with my .45 Colt. After trying multiple loads with various powders and bullets, I finally got a load that will give me an inch group with 5 shots at 25 yards (without using sandbags). You might be going for better than that, but I'm real happy. Didn't use a manual though, so it must not count. I didn't attack your knowledge about reloading or English and am wondering why you feel entitled to attack me.


****DISCLAIMER****
I DO NOT HIT BABY SEALS. I HAVE NEVER HARMED A BABY SEAL. HOWEVER; I WOULD ROCK A SEAL SKIN HAT IF IT WAS LEGALLY OBTAINED
****DISCLAIMER****

LL, 'fess up, I'll bet you even have a secret manual on beating baby seals.


And you will not even take the time to learn enough to pay it forward. Wow, I love a taker.

That's a bit harsh. Did you want my recipe? All you have to do is ask. As for paying it forward. Scroll down and you'll find some posts about me.


Thanks for making my point so perfectly . . . Again!

It's not in the slightest surprising that you cannot understand the logic. You call yourself a teacher and see no reason for books. Perhaps if you had the benefit of learning critical thinking from books you would be able to connect the dots.

Rick

You've pegged me, Rick.


I'm glad you have this figured out with your staggering two or so years of ample, in-depth experience. I'm also glad you seem to view Cast Boolits as little more than an internet resource for the taking with little to no obligation to give back.

Of course, giving back would take time and resources that could be better spent on other things.

So, in a nutshell you think that because I've got more than forty years of reloading experience and a helluva lot of manuals and physical reading and thousands upon thousands of hours of shooting and testing loads under my belt that there is exactly zero reason why you should have to break a sweat in your hobby trying to learn and improve--that I and others should just hand over everything we've learned because you don't want to spend the time or money or resources doing for yourself when we've already done it?

As the original poster intoned, we're seeing a huge influx of this attitude around here among the new members. The sad by-product of it is that it's causing more and more of us to virtually ignore any posts or questions offered by members with a join date of just the past couple years or so because we're seeing the same attitude out of so many of them.

SMFH.

Say hello to Frank.

Thanks for the friendly words, Recluse. What did I claim to have figured out? "No obligation to give back"? You have no idea. You guys sure are quick to judge. Maybe I've invited it, though, since I'm a "non-manual user." I'm not forcing you to hand over anything you've learned. Obviously you wouldn't help me if I asked. Others have, and I'm grateful to them for it. I try to be generous like that myself. Well, I'm sure the newbies don't stick around long after interacting with some of you guys. So, if that's what you want, keep it up.

[MT Gianni]

FYi, the important parts of the manual are neither the loads nor the tables but the rest of the information written in the books. FInding one wonderful load giving you a 1" 25 yard group doesn't make one an expert loader.
We like newbies here, we answer questions, listen to ideas and learn and grow together. We don't care much for holier than thou attitudes or this is why all of you are fools.

[Crash_Corrigan]

When I started out in the early 90's I knew squat. However the first purchase I made was the ABC's of Reloading and then a Lyman Loading Manual. After I had read them both thru and thru a couple of times I really blew it by going out and getting a Lee Loadmaster Press. Major mistake. However I persisted and I learned how to make decent .38 loads for my two revolters in that caliber.

Now I have about 33 weapons and presses and tools and widgets and doo dads galore. I smelt and cast my boolits, fishing jigs, sinkers and lures. Yes I have a computer but I still rely on the manuals to doublecheck each load as it is my hand and eyes that are at risk every time I pull the trigger.

With all that being said.....I learned more about the shooting and reloading and casting crafts in the last 7 years from this forum than from all the reading and doing that I had done before. I learned how to paper patch and that has allowed me to get better groups with my M1. Now I am about to buy my third Dillon Square Deal press, this one dedicated to .44 Special to go along with the .45 ACP and .38 Special. The Dillon 650 I use for my 9 mm's and the Dillon 550B for my .41 Magnums. The Lee Classic Turret Press and the RCBS Rockchucker are used for loading rifle rounds and small batches of specialty rounds as they are easier to set up.

I post few questions on this forum but I read a lot offa it. I spend at least 1hr a day here although my post count does not reflect this. I am happy to answer a decent question from anybody. However if the answer is readily available in a manual then I want to know why this person is so lazy as to not look there. Why should I waste my time because somebody wants instant answers to their questions? I have seen the 4th generation of Welfare youth come out onto the streets screaming about their rights and how they were abused by the white man since slavery. That is old news and does not cut it anymore. Go out and get a job, make something, work and look up your own damn loads.

[waco]

Yep. Snuck up on a load of BLC-2 in the winter time that shot amazing. Just amazing. Late spring was a whole other story. Evil, temperature sensitive powders.

Amen. There is WAY too much more info in a good manual as apposed to "load data" on the net.
Reloading manuals are worth there weight in gold as far as useful information goes.
On a side note for me on a personal level...
I got all my gear, manuals, and what not from my uncle who passed back in 1999
I treasure all of my uncles stuff and it will never leave me.
My first 6 months or so of reloading was all solo. Then I realized a co-worker, member, CheshireDave was a reloader/caster.
Sometime after that, years in fact, I found Castboolits. Thank God for that.
This place is awesome, but you have to do SOME work on your own.
That being said, I will admit to being guilty of asking some questions in the past that I could have figured out for myself.

[Mumblypeg]

We are all teachers of sorts.... but the student must still do his homework.....

[MtGun44]

Used to try to point the lazy newbies to some web sites and ask if they have a
manual or three. Starting to just go on to the next post. Hate the unfriendliness of
that, I LIKE this place and want it to be a good, friendly place, but at some point
I start getting sick of the lazy takers.

A few of the replies here show that the person doesn't even care and cannot
even grasp that reading a few loading manuals would be a great learning
experience WHEN IT IS POINTED OUT TO HIM. Actually thinks books are obsolete.
Sad for him, his life will be a lot shallower and poorer and his lessons will come
a lot harder.

If he even reads this, I'm sure he will feel superior to some old fool that still thinks
learning from books is relevant. You can lead a horse to water. . . . .

Bill

[snuffy]

I loaded my first rounds on my brothers kitchen table. Using a lee hammer type classic loader, some powder scoops and a box of Hornady 170 soft points for our 8mm Mausers. He bought it for his, then the next year I got mine, I was 15. He let me read his very limited manual, I wish I could remember who's it was. It may have simply been the instruction sheet for the lee loader. That was 52 years ago.

When I got out of the service in '69 I started loading shotshells because they just cost too much to buy. There were ducks to hunt!

A couple of years later, I got a loading kit from somebody that nearly wrecked a nice Sako '06 with some dumb mistake. It was a RCBS rockchucker, with a pacific manual , some powder, some 30 cal bullets and a few primers. Along with some loaded '06 shells. After reading that manual, I got a bullet puller, took those loaded shells apart. I had to dig the power out of the shells, it was packed in so tight.

I found out about an old curmudgeon that sold components from his basement. He was a wealth of info, I realized he was my former wood-shop teacher. He remembered me, I was the worst wood butcher he had ever tried to teach!:roll: He got tired of my constant questions, he handed me a manual, said read the front, THEN come back to ask questions.

I became a subscriber to rifle-handloader magazines, kept the subscription for 15 years. lots of info there. Currently I'm a member at loaddata.com, part of the Wolfe company. Lots of loads available on there.

Guess you could say I too started out in the dark ages. Before the instant gratification era of computers and smart phones. It's too bad that things have gotten to this state of affairs. People that take and demand more, then whine when we say learn and earn.

[35 shooter]

Whether you get a load or loads online here or anywhere else, it just makes sense to have several reloading manuals for cross reference just to make double sure it's a safe load or you could potentially get into trouble quick. Not bashing or judging anyone but it's just a safety thing. All the other information on loading tecnique etc. alone makes it worth it.

This site and the folks here are great. They are definitly a giving bunch but i think a fellow needs to go into this hobby "armed a bit" with at the very least a reloading manual. I've been at it over 35 years and still read thru them from time to time and use them for cross reference all the time.

I'm a newbie here but i understand the earn the answer thing. I read thru 40 pages on the gas check site forum the other day and still didn't find exactly what i was looking for but at least i knew more about making my own and exactly what i did want to ask at that point. After all that i think i've got enough information to figure the rest out with range testing....wish there was a manual on making aluminum gas checks.

Read...cross reference...ask questions... be safe!

[22 rifle]

:"a fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions" prob 18:2 Wise advice from another manual.In the original language a fool isn't a stupid person but one who is being willfully ignorant to his own harm.

[jonp]

I started with a brand-new Speer #11 that came with my first kit. I read it AND reloaded by kerosene lamp at night after homework. I had no phone, no mentor (at first), and used a lot of Lee dies. How kids today figure out how to wipe their butts without an app or fifteen different utoob videos is anyone's guess.

I think the OP's point may somewhat have been missed. I took the rant to be about armchair experts providing load data that they have no experience with, but probably read on a forum or blog somewhere.

People should NOT ask for loads. One perfect example was just a couple days ago a well-meaning gentleman provided some load data for a .44 special, but what was posted was actually correct 44 MAGNUM load data. The error was promptly pointed out by an experienced member and the correction made, but still the mistake happened, as they do because we are all human. RTFM. Preferably several, and consult on-line powder manufacturer's data too just for added insurance, because that can be updated in real time if errors are noticed.

In no way am I saying we shouldn't discuss loads, powders, or putting things in the cases in addition to powders, or stepping outside the bounds of loading manual data (using powders that aren't listed, for example), that's part of the hobby for a lot of us, I'm just saying those who ask something like "I just cast these boolits, what's a good load for my .38 Special?" need to be answered with some polite questions rather than a recipe that they may not even know how to duplicate.

Gear

What you have said is a good comment. I guess it goes back to common sense. I have no problem taking someones advice on a load but I always check it either in a manual on on the manu's site. If the recommended load is outside of the max range I start low and approach with caution but then again I don't go over the max much at all so will probably disregard. If it is below published min I'm not much interested except as a curiosity I might try one day.

[jonp]

Most of us don't ask for loads because we develop them or find them ourselves.

Think with your mind, not your mouth
Good advice but most of us don't have the money to try the 15 powders that will work with a 45ACP and need to winnow it down to 1 or 2 out of the box. How to do this? Ask on sites like this and take advantage of the years of experience.
With powder and primers hard to come by sites like this are worth their weight in gold.

[jonp]

45sixgun- All joking aside, a reloading manual is worth the money and is an important item to have.

A reloading manual has about 50 you tube videos worth of info in one handy spot. A reloading manual has about 1,000,000 "Why did my round not chamber" answers in handy spot. A reloading manual covers it all from primer types, to case cleaning, to setting up dies, to powders, to trouble shooting, to the differences in crimps, etc. They are worth having on the bench and reading them would eliminate 2/3 of the erroneous questions asked on reloading forums.

****DISCLAIMER****
I DO NOT HIT BABY SEALS. I HAVE NEVER HARMED A BABY SEAL. HOWEVER; I WOULD ROCK A SEAL SKIN HAT IF IT WAS LEGALLY OBTAINED
****DISCLAIMER****
"A reloading manual covers it all from primer types, to case cleaning, to setting up dies, to powders, to trouble shooting, to the differences in crimps, etc. They are worth having on the bench and reading them would eliminate 2/3 of the erroneous questions asked on reloading forums."

True but I think you will admit that the difference in real world and book information can be quite astonishing at times.

For example: how many of the people used Blue Dot in a 41Mag for years before finding out it was suddenly so dangerous they might blow up half the town if they keep using it? Has me scratching my head.
Or how about powders that work quite well but are not listed? I saw Promo listed on this forum as a choice for 45ACP, did not see it in a manual and emailed Alliant and the tech emailed back that it was the same as Red Dot by weight and use it like that. I didn't find that out in the manual.

[Bloodman14]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?96221-Best-Reloading-Manuals-for-Cast-Bullets&highlight=read+stickies

To ALL newcomers, I offer the preceding advice.
Just a suggestion; we can't/won't do it for you.

[btroj]

Good advice but most of us don't have the money to try the 15 powders that will work with a 45ACP and need to winnow it down to 1 or 2 out of the box. How to do this? Ask on sites like this and take advantage of the years of experience.
With powder and primers hard to come by sites like this are worth their weight in gold.

There is a huge difference between saying "I don't have a manual, what load do I use with x bullet" and saying "I just got a new 357 mag, looking for mid range loads, what would be a good powder to try".

Asking for a powder suggestion is not the same as asking for a load. If someone suggests a powder I still need to find data and work up a load. Guys who ask for a load don't want to do any of that. They want to know exactly what to use.

The difference is this- I don't mind helping a guy who is looking to learn. I don't mind helping a guy who isn't sure which way to go next. I don't like helping a guy who wants me to do all the work for him.

[btroj]

"A reloading manual covers it all from primer types, to case cleaning, to setting up dies, to powders, to trouble shooting, to the differences in crimps, etc. They are worth having on the bench and reading them would eliminate 2/3 of the erroneous questions asked on reloading forums."

True but I think you will admit that the difference in real world and book information can be quite astonishing at times.

For example: how many of the people used Blue Dot in a 41Mag for years before finding out it was suddenly so dangerous they might blow up half the town if they keep using it? Has me scratching my head.
Or how about powders that work quite well but are not listed? I saw Promo listed on this forum as a choice for 45ACP, did not see it in a manual and emailed Alliant and the tech emailed back that it was the same as Red Dot by weight and use it like that. I didn't find that out in the manual.

You saw data for Promo and sent an email to Alliant. That is the way it should be. You did the homework yourself.

It comes down to the difference between asking a guy to help you put in a new sink and asking him to put it in for you. One is being a good neighbor, the other is just being used.

[Pb2au]

In this case, yes.

It isn't about saving time or money. It is about a lack of desire to actively learn.

I agree Btroj 100%. Learning is what separates. Most people would like the result but not the path to follow to arrive there.

[Bret4207]

The "Miracle Load" = the Miracle alloy, hardness, size, lube, mold, GC or no GC, pot temp, mold temp, or how many fricken lbs of WW's come in 5 gallon bucket!

Most are just too plain lazy to do their own work and figure it out for themselves. I will teach, offer help, and give direction, but never do someone elses work for them.

BINGO!!!!!! Too frickin' lazy, too impatient, too much into instant gratification. If they can't have perfection NOW, they don't want to bother. One of the big things I try to tell noobies is not to sink a bunch of money into casting stuff because they might not like it. We all laugh at the idea, but I'd say casting is for maybe 5% of the reloading public. The others just can't build a meal from scratch, much less a decent load. I guess that's about where a lot of them are at- If you can't pop it in the oven or microwave then they just go out for supper, or- if they have to actually do research and read and think and experiment and don't get perfection right off the bat, they'll buy factory.

[Ben]

btroj

The difference is this- I don't mind helping a guy who is looking to learn. I don't mind helping a guy who isn't sure which way to go next. I don't like helping a guy who wants me to do all the work for him.

Some time back, I addressed this same concern with " newbies " who wanted you to do all the work for them. I posted lengthy replies with details to their inquires only to have them never return to the forum and even read my efforts to help them. By the way, this has happened quite a bit.

I said the same things that you're saying today , I was left with the impression, " These people don't want to hear the truth " and was attacked by many telling me how insensitive that I was , guess I'll keep my thoughts to myself now.

I'm sad to say that today, there seems to be a " new wave of attitude " here on the forum. There is an aggressiveness in people's remarks that I didn't see 5 yrs. ago.

Mother always told me that when I visited somewhere to remember " my manners." It now seems that Mother's aren't teaching everyone that anymore ?

Ben

[Dan Cash]

Some guys have very limited time and very limited resources. Does that mean they should find another hobby? Of course not! I guarantee most if not all of them would love to have the time and resources to work up loads and try every variation possible to get the "miracle load." Is there something wrong with them for asking to benefit from someone else's work and experience? I don't think so at all.

Those who haven't time to read, research and develop loads always seem to have time to sit at the computer and fish around for the miracle.

[jonp]

There is a huge difference between saying "I don't have a manual, what load do I use with x bullet" and saying "I just got a new 357 mag, looking for mid range loads, what would be a good powder to try".

Asking for a powder suggestion is not the same as asking for a load. If someone suggests a powder I still need to find data and work up a load. Guys who ask for a load don't want to do any of that. They want to know exactly what to use.

The difference is this- I don't mind helping a guy who is looking to learn. I don't mind helping a guy who isn't sure which way to go next. I don't like helping a guy who wants me to do all the work for him.
True, huge distinction

[Prospector Howard]

You are absolutely right about the aggressiveness in peoples remarks. I've noticed quite a few times when I've commented on what I've experienced or what seems to be just common sense, some "expert" will jump in to try to smack down your idea like you're some kind of idiot. Usually it's on a safety issue. Well I'm just an old fart that's been casting for 40+ years and more reloading, I guess I don't know anything. So I just say that's fine, do it your way. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't keep him from blowing his face off.
btroj

The difference is this- I don't mind helping a guy who is looking to learn. I don't mind helping a guy who isn't sure which way to go next. I don't like helping a guy who wants me to do all the work for him.

Some time back, I addressed this same concern with " newbies " who wanted you to do all the work for them. I posted lengthy replies with details to their inquires only to have them never return to the forum and even read my efforts to help them. By the way, this has happened quite a bit.

I said the same things that you're saying today , I was left with the impression, " These people don't want to hear the truth " and was attacked by many telling me how insensitive that I was , guess I'll keep my thoughts to myself now.

I'm sad to say that today, there seems to be a " new wave of attitude " here on the forum. There is an aggressiveness in people's remarks that I didn't see 5 yrs. ago.

Mother always told me that when I visited somewhere to remember " my manners." It now seems that Mother's aren't teaching everyone that anymore ?

Ben

[45sixgun]

Used to try to point the lazy newbies to some web sites and ask if they have a
manual or three. Starting to just go on to the next post. Hate the unfriendliness of
that, I LIKE this place and want it to be a good, friendly place, but at some point
I start getting sick of the lazy takers.

A few of the replies here show that the person doesn't even care and cannot
even grasp that reading a few loading manuals would be a great learning
experience WHEN IT IS POINTED OUT TO HIM. Actually thinks books are obsolete.
Sad for him, his life will be a lot shallower and poorer and his lessons will come
a lot harder.

If he even reads this, I'm sure he will feel superior to some old fool that still thinks
learning from books is relevant. You can lead a horse to water. . . . .

Bill

Be nice to know who you're referring to, Bill. Then the lazy ignorant newbie could try to explain or defend himself. Pot shots are easy to take, especially at someone's back.

For champions of critical thinking, some of you are pretty poor representatives....name-calling, stereotyping, assuming....

Just for the record....we haven't had television for fifteen years. Below are pictures of the night stand next to my side of the bed (it was not staged) and five of the seven bookshelves in my classroom (whew, looks like I need to clean up a little...). My entire family are voracious readers. My oldest daughter who is home schooled just turned sixteen and was recently accepted into a competitive college.

I think I'll take a break from castboolits now and go have some fun casting and reloading. If I get stuck or have a question, I'll poke around online like I've been doing all along, and I know I'll find the answers I need. Why? Because anything I would have looked for in the manual is available online. And probably some things that aren't in the manual. Or I'll email a friend or two (one of whom is a top notch mold maker) and ask my questions. Am I an expert? Not by a long shot. Am I lazy? Some of you obviously think so. But that's not going to ruin my fun.

I grew up in very primitive conditions...deep wilderness...no electricity. We loaded our own shells without a manual and our guns did exactly what we wanted and needed them to. Things are a little more refined now as far as guns and living conditions in my life, but I still have the same old common sense. Somehow being the clueless, uneducated, lazy, idiot that I am, I'm having a blast.

Happy shooting!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-danr12-mSmw/Up8xu_lhHjI/AAAAAAAAbNM/6nS-yBE3TlU/s400/P1150680-002.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dvwi0WoH_a8/Up8xxxdn9-I/AAAAAAAAbNU/OorYS7SEfoU/s400/P1150688-002.JPG

[captaint]

I, too started handloading well before the interwebs. So - I bought a couple of loading manuals and READ THEM - from the beginning. See, this way we learn what, why and how. It's not just about finding some loads. It's learning what the hell is going on inside that brass and outside. Ever notice how many questions we get about "why does my brass look like this?". If you read a manual you'd know why. It's all explained there, in detail. Not at all about finding some loads. It's about learning WHY. Rant over. Mike

[cbrick]

For champions of critical thinking, some of you are pretty poor representatives....name-calling, stereotyping, assuming....

There can be no doubt that we all jumped to conclusions and made profound assumptions. We did this right after reading the following . . .


I don't have a manual, never bought one. Don't see the need and would rather spend the money on something else.

I can't understand how we could be so foolish as to make such assumptions. Silly us I guess huh?

I have always believed that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. With something that is potentially dangerous to begin with a little knowledge is especially dangerous.

Well, you go right on having fun with your new found internet wisdom and good luck, sooner or later you'll need all the luck you can get. Oooh, did I make yet another assumption?

Rick

[opos]

Guess I'm just too "old school" about things...I started loading as a teen in the 50's and there really were few resources and in a smaller town there were a limited amount of reloaders so we did what we could...An old guy told me to get published data and only trust folks you knew well as far as any load data...it was mostly working up loads, watching how they perform and settling on one of the very few powders and bullets we had available.

I think that the internet is great...I enjoy many long hours of browsing just as I enjoyed reading the encyclopedia Americana back "then"...but the internet is full of "keyboard commandos" that really have limited experience and share lots of things that might be a bit "iffy" ... and "iffy" where my realoading is concerned just doesn't fly. I keep current with my manuals as well....a good example of why would be one instance I'd had a few years back.

Speer made a 125 grain bullet for the 357 and 38 special...the older manuals showed the bullet was recommended with HP38 (or W231). I noticed my current Speer manual lists the bullet for the 357 but no longer for the 38 special...I notified Speer that I thought they had accidently left the load out of the current manual and was told it was not an error and that the load was not recommended for the 38 special as at lower velocities it was very prone to sticking in the barrel.

That "old" load is all over the internet...folks have been posting it for years...I had used it for years...Speer is the manufacturer and says it's not considered safe so they don't recommend it...fine..I quit using it and have substituted and all is fine...Probably nothing would happen but the point is that the internet is often not current either by ignorance or just the fact it does not get purged and the old info stays there forever. I don't use "internet loads" (I do have a very few folks I'll share back and forth with off line)..I never shoot anyone's loads and I don't load for anyone...not even my Wife. Belt and suspenders cautious? Yep and at my mid 70's I still got all my digits and parts.

One little "challenge" I'd like to throw out...for the folks that like to just go to the Hogden web site and get load data...can you tell me from the web site what case was used to work up the load? What primer was used to work up the load? What barrel was used to work up the load? All that data is there but it's hidden and unless you know how and where to find it you might have an issue...if you are working with maximum loads and decide to change primers from what they had used in the load development you might get some pressure problems...and I'll almost bet that most of the internet info gatherers do not know where that data is "hidden" on the internet web site...any takers? Just a hint..go to the Hogden sight on the web...take a 38 special load off the Hogden site..they used Winchester brass....they used a 7.7" barrel length with a 1:1.875 twist..they used a Winchester small pistol primer and the trim length was1.145"....none of that "just shows" on the load data info...you have to know how and where to look...again, "it's in the book" (also on the web but hidden).

[gray wolf]

When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

[wvmedic]

opos, you mean this data? 89472 Was just checking to see if I could find it, I'm new to reloading only been doing it for a few years. I am defiantly new to casting, and have questions. Even though I have seven manuals. After reading this I have to be honest, I'm a bit afraid to ask. I have no problem doing my home work, in fact I just bought a 1911 in 9mm and am trying to sort out the best powder to use for cast as that is all I plan to use after I shot the 350 rounds of factory FMJ I bought to get the brass. I haven't found the best powder yet, but I am looking. I might need to ask though.

[Adam10mm]

I've had help in the past, but I also did my own work. I've seen it on many forums recently of people asking for a "recipe". That throws up a flag that they don't have a manual, aren't willing to put the time into working up a load, and clearly don't understand the how and why of reloading. It's gotten to the point where I just ignore newbies in general unless they have shown they have done some real work. I never thought I'd get like that but after trying to help and then being berated for telling them to buy a manual and work loads up, I just gave up.

[wvmedic]

Just to note, I have in the past asked some bone head questions. Only because I did not want to be blinded or worse be killed, the books can not give me real world feed back. That is why I have asked some of those questions, making sure I was doing things the correct way.

I love this forum and it is about the only one I visit now. I am very appreciative of the collective knowledge here, it has provided me the opportunity to harvest my first deer with cast this very year.
Thanks to all who are kind enough to share your years of knowledge with us new reloader's, I pray that I will be able to learn as much to pass on the love I have of casting and reloading to the next generation.

[varmint243]

The amount of knowledge contained in loading manuals is infinitesimal compared to the knowledge available on the web.

When I started reloading I bought a dozen or so books and read them all. The web didn't exist yet.
Sure it's a good starting point for some basics, but the amount of knowledge readily available to me now is truly impressive.
I'd much rather have the information available from thousands of people, instead of a dozen or so that wrote books and articles.
Keep in mind those folks are writers and just one opinion.
They are not reloading gods.

The internet, mentoring, books, all good sources of information.
I will take them all please.
IMO if you are an experienced shooter/reloader and haven't read Hatcher's Notebook you have no right to complain about people that haven't read a book on reloading.
Not all of the information in those reloading books is accurate or correct.

What happened to the saying "the only stupid question is one that isn't asked"

[cbrick]

medic, nothing in the world wrong with asking questions and most here are willing to share their experience. Asking a question is nothing more than trying to learn something that you don't know. That's a far cry from "I don't have a book because I can just pick the brains of strangers and save myself the trouble."

Post #86 describes the red flags very well. One thing to keep in mind for all the "No need for the book, I have an internet connection types", there is a huge number of people on the internet that have less experience than you do freely passing out expert advice and the very last thing on their minds is your best interest. Add to this that many of these internet experts are doing nothing more than passing on what they read from someone that has even less experience than they have.

Rick

[opos]

opos, you mean this data? 89472 Was just checking to see if I could find it, I'm new to reloading only been doing it for a few years. I am defiantly new to casting, and have questions. Even though I have seven manuals. After reading this I have to be honest, I'm a bit afraid to ask. I have no problem doing my home work, in fact I just bought a 1911 in 9mm and am trying to sort out the best powder to use for cast as that is all I plan to use after I shot the 350 rounds of factory FMJ I bought to get the brass. I haven't found the best powder yet, but I am looking. I might need to ask though.

You found it..congrats..that says something about looking beyond just the easy stuff..thanks for restoring faith...let's see how many others can find it...you and I know now....lets see about the loads for 45 Colt and what the hidden info might be to continue the challenge.

Asking is no issue at all...we all do it and we better...but double checking what flies around the web is really important...it's not only reloading...My Wife was diagnosed with breast cancer a few years ago....we wanted all the info we could get so what did we do? Went to the internet...got really confused and really concerned (more than was necessary)...when I started to ask her doctor some questions he said "you have been on the interenet haven't you?"...we said yes and his comment was "stay the hell off the web...no one else has your exact set of circumstances so nothing of value can be gained...only will serve to scare you"...she had her surgery and her follow ups and has no indication of ongoing cancer after 6 years....but we both figured we'd be saying goodby after about a year of diagnosis.

[Recluse]

High school English teacher, eh?

So do you do your students' homework for them or do all their reading for them? Wouldn't see why not, after all YOU already know it and actually learning it, for the students, would use up resources and time they could spend elsewhere like surfing the net asking others how Romeo and Juliet ended or where was the letter at in Poe's The Purloined Letter or what is the famous saying still oft quoted in the beginning of Dickens' A Tale Of Two Cities.

Why should students read anything these days, other than maybe the sparkly vampire novels? And why bother even reading them when you can watch the movie instead? It's quicker and you don't have to think about anything whatsoever--it's all laid out for you on the silver screen.



I've had help in the past, but I also did my own work. I've seen it on many forums recently of people asking for a "recipe". That throws up a flag that they don't have a manual, aren't willing to put the time into working up a load, and clearly don't understand the how and why of reloading. It's gotten to the point where I just ignore newbies in general unless they have shown they have done some real work. I never thought I'd get like that but after trying to help and then being berated for telling them to buy a manual and work loads up, I just gave up.

Agree, Adam. I just pass on most of the questions I see asked by new members unless I happen to read that the poster has really done some work or research or trial and error into their situation. In those cases, happy to help (if I can).

But the drive-by members with a recent join date who pop in and say, "Hey, just got a Taurus Judge. What's a good load for 45?" Those just get ignored.

:coffee:

[cbrick]

I'd much rather have the information available from thousands of people, instead of a dozen or so that wrote books and articles.
Keep in mind those folks are writers and just one opinion.
They are not reloading gods.

Of course the major powder/bullet maker manuals truly are nothing more than an opinion written by some flunky with a key board.

The fact they are college educated legitimate ballisticians working in full blown ballistics labs has no meaning, it's all nothing more than their opinion.

Rick

[jmort]

With all the trip and fall lawyers available, you can bet the powder manufacturer data is as good/safe as it gets. Perfect no, nothing here on earth is perfect, except a single instance lasting around 33 years around 2,000 years ago.

[varmint243]

Of course the major powder/bullet maker manuals truly are nothing more than an opinion written by some flunky with a key board.

The fact they are college educated legitimate ballisticians working in full blown ballistics labs has no meaning, it's all nothing more than their opinion.

Rick

Powder and bullet manufacturer's don't write the reloading books, writers do.
Only the load data is provided by the power and bullet manufacturers labs and scientists.
I worked in the scientific community for 4 1/2 years, we tested, we published data, we published scientific testing papers, we wrote and contributed to books.
We provided data to manufacturers of the equipment that we tested.
We were hired by manufactures to do testing.
I have been on that side of things.

I feel reasonably confident in my statement and stand by it.

[wvmedic]

I was editing my post above when the power went out and crashed my computer.

What I wanted to add was that in some of my questions, I may not have worded my question well. When for example asking for a load suggestion, what I really was asking was as btroj has pointed out was for a powder suggestion. So with that being said sometimes what someone is asking might be taken out of context, I know it would be my fault for not asking the question correctly. I just wanted to point out the fact that some may not be wording there questions correctly.

Jeff

[45-70 Chevroner]

A good reloading manual is worth a thousand questions. Reloading manuals will give you the definitive answer. I recently ask about a load or better yet pet load for a 105 gr lee 38 boolit, I didn't get any return posts for the question. That was ok though, I guess they wanted me to look it up my self, so I did. I found loads in my new Lyman cast boolit manual that greatfully gives loads for boolits other than their own boolits.

[Love Life]

The magic load:

Powder charge between MIN/MAX listed in reloading manual+appropriate boolit/cycles the action X is accurate - is stable= The magic load.

The perfect powder? Pic one listed in the manual and work up. If it is dirty, so what. Clean your gun.

As long as it is accurate, functions well, and doesn't blow you up, you are good.

Also, experimenting with different powders is nice, but not mandatory and most the time not neccessary. You only have bullseye? Then work up a load with bullseye. You only have unique? Then work up a load with unique.

I don't ask people for load data for a couple reasons:
A. They may have just pulled their load from the net
B. They may not be smart
C. They are not shooting the gun that I am
D. I can figure it out myself

[ShooterAZ]

Or they have never bothered to purchase a reloading manual.

[varmint243]

>>>Dirty Jobs' Mike Rowe on Lamb Castration, PETA, and American Labor<<<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-udsIV4Hmc

IMO defiantly worth the time to watch
Some interesting information on "subject matter experts"

[jcameron996]

:popcorn: I knew this was going to be a great thread within the first few posts. Now I am going to stir the pot a little more. I don't think that anyone needs ONE reloading manual. In my opinion I think you are screwing the job up if you don't have at least two. I cross reference several manuals and other manufacturers data and am always looking to add more to the library as I find it. Mistakes are not commom but also not unheard of. Whats the problems with a little extra effort when you are talking about a controlled explosion in close proximity to your face.

[Adam10mm]

I think I have 5 manuals for cartridge and 2 for shotgun. I haven't touched my Hornady manual in a few years because I don't usually load their bullets.

[David2011]

The best info in most reloading manuals is the text, not the data. The latest Speer manual talks about each cartridge, special considerations like loading for a Garand in the .30-'06 section and tons of history and info in the front sections. The Speer and Lyman are my favorites but I have several others. On the Internet I only trust manufacturers' data and even among manufacturers I've seen some variations. Recently I loaded some .30-'06 with 180 grain Nosler BTs for a BAR. It was a friend's rifle and he had no previous experience with that bullet. He's a long distance shooter and reloader but had to work so I was loading the rounds for him. For myself I only load .30-'06 for the Garand so my experience didn't include H4350 or the 180 BT in .30-'06.

Minimum and maximum loads varied considerably from the several sources I consulted. I started at the bottom end recommendation among all of the loads found and finally ended up in the middle of Hodgdon's published range which was at the top end of another source. Point is, studying and trials are required. I think it was Mike Venturino who published an article a coupld of years ago extolling the virtues of loading something that would work in all of his guns even of not the single best for any of them and then LEARNING TO SHOOT.

The requests for "I just got a new XYZ. What's the best load?" get me, too. OTOH, "I want to shoot some light loads in my .45 ACP 1911 for steel plate matches. Does anyone have any experience with this situation?" is worthy of discussion.

I'll share light loads that have been proven safe. I won't publish my heavy Ruger and Contender only loads because I don't want a newbie to snag the info and use it in his Colt SAA or S&W thining it would be OK since he saw it on the Internet. It's all in the manuals, in the published limits, but was worked up in my guns.

David

[dondiego]

I use the Hornady manual as a reference for load data even though I may not be using the exact bullet made by them. The data for similar bullet weights is still useful for comparisons.

[Adam10mm]

Yes but I don't load jacketed.

[dondiego]

I rarely do either but I still use the Hornady manual as a reference for powder selection, load data comparisons to similar weight bullets, etc. Jacketed or cast, you can still make comparisons. I have used many starting or mid level jacketed loads as a starting point for a cast boolit of same or similar weight.

[303Guy]

I use the Hornady manual as a reference for load data even though I may not be using the exact bullet made by them. The data for similar bullet weights is still useful for comparisons.Some manuals list different bullets with either different start and max loads or show different pressure. Changing the bullet can make a big difference to pressure. The manuals describe how to develop a load using a bullet not listed.

If a newbe asks questions that indicate he hasn't read up on it then getting him started by answering his questions (with questions and pointers and safety advice) so that he will get interested enough to start researching for himself. It is risky handing out load data that is not in a manual.

On the 'magic' load; we don't use work-up factory loads. Just the end product. But then again hand loads are not 'standard'. I know of some people who look at the load data and decide how hot they want to load, load up and go shoot. They might decide they want performance so they look at the max load and use that. That is scary!

Someone mentioned being too lazy to read. I used to read. I read my Speer Reloading Manual No.10 cover to cover several times. I still have it but don't use it anymore - don't need to. There's the internet! Besides, it's out of date. But the thing is I don't read anymore. I haven't even read this whole thread (well, it quite long). Having said that, I like to discover things and figure things out for myself so I avoid asking questions until I need to check my progress or think there may be some safety issues involved. I do like to double check and doing that has caught a few potential problems.

[bhn22]

There's a lot of frustration on this particular topic on a number of the boards I frequent. This one here led to a dogpile of sorts on the poster of message #4. He didn't say anything wrong from my point of view. He wasn't even really mean or anything: http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=192581
I know the guy, he's a little less than diplomatic at times, but he knows his stuff, and was even one of the really good magazine writers I've known. I wish he was still writing professionally.

[2AMMD]

If you want load data, buy the books or look up the load data from the powder manufacturer online. They all have load data for all of their powders and many boolit designs. If you want the best advice you can get on boolits for a specific caliber and purpose, or how to cast them, the people here are the best.
2AMMD

[opos]

Obvious from my prior posts that I'm a big believer in the manuals ... not just the load data but the "general info"....if someone insists on just getting load data...there is a series of cheap little paperback bound books called something like "one book one caliber" and they have load data copied (with appropriate approvals) from powder and bullet manufacturers...they are handy if you want a quick comparison between manufacturers when working with a new caliber, powder or bullet...Just the "facts", maam...none of the "general info" that some folks fine boring but at least the data is all copies from the published sources with a little blurb on each caliber...I have a shelf full of loading manuals..some brand new and some from a ways back..but every now and then I'll see or hear something about a load that sounds interesting and I'll grab the little book of load data and thumb through to see how things seem to compare....just a bit of a "short cut" that isn't the final data but helpful from time to time.

[myg30]

Im not alone in how I feel, I really love all you guys for the posts here. I didn't mean to build a hornets net but I was going to bust yesterday after seeing so many new reloaders asking for that magic load.
I need to add this, its not so much that a new loader does not have a manual because YES the web is full of info from many reliable sources and as mentioned several times, its the fact that they "Don't even bother" to look them up themselves ! That chaps my butt big time.

To 45 SIXGUN, In defense for you, I read your first post here from several years ago and YOU ALREADY HAD KNOWLEDGE. YOU DID your homework. Reaming 45lc cylinders is not a newbe thing. Your information from WEB or MANUALS shows you did your homework. I wont hold against you that you teach English [ my worst subject] ! Lol. You read period ! NOT lazy ! You don't need a loading manual because you searched the web and got your info you needed as most new guys Don't ! +1 man really.

Like school kids using a calculator and most do not know the basic times tables ! Not able to make change at the fast food place unless the register tells them what coins to give out ! Really ! How they read a powder scale is a miracle in it self !

I appreciate the support, this IS the best forum and great group of folks here. I love casting !

Mike

[45sixgun]

Blessed are the peace makers....

Thanks, Mike.

[Mal Paso]

The Miracle Load is 10.

Don't know what the big deal is.

I read my Speer Manual by refrigerator light before I started reloading. Feeble light and cold hardened my resolve.

[Eric H]

I do ask questions now and again. I do a lot of reading and research myself to. Then I also enjoy The conversation with the fine folks on here.

[Digital Dan]

The load for Miracles is to fill large cases with huge bullets and all the fast powder you can stuff in between. Rest assured, you will have a 'come to Jesus' moment every time you fire one.

[Adam10mm]

Agree, Adam. I just pass on most of the questions I see asked by new members unless I happen to read that the poster has really done some work or research or trial and error into their situation. In those cases, happy to help (if I can).
Exactly. Even the "will this powder work" threads I'll help out a bit. If a guy is new to reloading and posts that he just got into reloading, has a manual and has no clue clue where to start to pick a powder, I'll chime in to guide him. There's a difference between just being overwhelmed with reloading data that you don't know what powders work well and just expecting a handout.

[ChuckJaxFL]

I'm in between. I have the manuals, but I've learned more from you guys and trust you more.

I also think it's interesting how this topic to appears cyclically. I first read it on rec.guns in 90's, back when newsgroups, ftp servers, IRC, etc, were all as much a part of the Internet as the WWW is now.

I worked tech support for an online company in the late 90's. It was frustrating. People would go pick up a 5 year old flea market computer (5 computer years was a lot longer then than now) and expect to get online with current software. And they'd expect us to spoonfeed them every tiny little step of the way. We couldn't tell them to RTFM. It wouldn't have helped, anyway. Some people don't absorb by RTFM, they need to interact in person, over the phone, or in a forum.

If you want to help, help. If you don't, don't.

If *this* is what's giving you heartburn in your life, you're doing pretty well. Congratulations.

[Love Life]

Anybody know what the most accurate load for .243 Winchester is?

[dondiego]

Anybody know what the most accurate load for .243 Winchester is?

That's easy. It is always 10 grains of Unique. Any boolit.

[varmint243]

Why is it that all the guys on here telling people to read a reloading manual can't read and follow simple instructions for posting a pic in their "Swappin & Sellin" ad ???

pot-kettle-black [smilie=b:

[jmort]

"pot-kettle-black"

This is Cast Boolits, not Electronic Enemas.

[SgtDog0311]

Six pages of bit@ching and all you had to say was 16gr of 2400.

[Pat I.]

LOL. Sounds like a logical solution to me.

[btroj]

The miracle load? Isn't that what Obamas mom dumped about 50 years ago?

[45 2.1]

The "Miracle Load" = the Miracle alloy, hardness, size, lube, mold, GC or no GC, pot temp, mold temp, or how many fricken lbs of WW's come in 5 gallon bucket!

Most are just too plain lazy to do their own work and figure it out for themselves. I will teach, offer help, and give direction, but never do someone elses work for them.


Priceless.... simply priceless....[smilie=s:

[BABore]

The miracle load? Isn't that what Obamas mom dumped about 50 years ago?

Right into a flower pot and out of it grew a blooming idiot!

[btroj]

Right into a flower pot and out of it grew a blooming idiot!

Sadly, he went to seed and more sprouted up.

[Brad Phillips]

The miracle load? Isn't that what Obamas mom dumped about 50 years ago?

Really???? Now I have to wipe my screen off, that was hilarious. Even funnier than "punch a baby seal in the head":smile:

[Brad Phillips]

Most young people want instant satisfaction. Can't seem to get by without it.

[Brad Phillips]

I work in a cabinet factory, the world has slipped considerably in the last few years. Too much, easy info, without having to figure things out.

Most 20 somethings cannot set up and run a table saw, read a tape measure, come back from break on time, etc.[smilie=b:

[Down South]

Ah, reloading manuals. I like old ones, new ones and ones in between. I can't have enough of them. Call me cautious, careful or whatever. I've been loading for 40 years and I still go back and double check my manuals against my own recorded load data when starting out on a new batch. I can't help it. I just have to pull the manuals to double, triple check.
I might look at someone's pet load on the net but before I would attempt to duplicate it, I would confer to at least two reloading manuals.
People who take someone's word off the net for their load data need to remember that they are playing with gun powder.

[josper]

I had a friend that told me he was loading hot loads for his .44mag. Being curious I asked him what he considered hot. He answered " I'm using a lee loader and it says to use one scoop of powder so I use two scoops" It must be true that God looks after fools.

[Prospector Howard]

I hope you pointed him in the right direction and educated him some. He won't be around very long to be your friend with reloading practices like that.
I had a friend that told me he was loading hot loads for his .44mag. Being curious I asked him what he considered hot. He answered " I'm using a lee loader and it says to use one scoop of powder so I use two scoops" It must be true that God looks after fools.

[smokesahoy]

I'm part of this generation. I didn't buy load manuals, I downloaded them, I can read them on my phone while at work, on my computer while at home etc.

I love getting load data, on something new. Not because I am looking for the word of god from yall, but because I am excited over something new and want to talk about it. I want to hear what powders everyone is using. I may not have that powder but I will get the quickload sims for it and compare it against what I have.

I love hearing about loads for a new boolit also because most places don't list bullet OAL with their data, and it makes a big difference for performance knowing how long it is before purchase.

I love talking about it, hence the forum. I love how the internet makes a subject come alive and become 3 dimensional. Load manuals are interesting resources but as they are publishing a little bit for EVERYONE often times they use bullets that are vastly different than what I am using. They are unimaginative, giving generic loads designed to perform mediocrely across all platforms when what I want are loads designed to sing in my pistol.

So when us noobs come out and want to talk about something don't call us fecal matter for brains. You are mistaking our intentions. We are not looking from the word of god to come from you either. We are looking to discuss a topic, bounce ideas and then rest assured we are going to load that round up perfectly. We are going to tailor the oal, the powder charge, play with various primers and extract every last drop of potential energy from that option, stopping just short of an unsafe situation.

There are various generations of reloaders here, and while you guys have lots of time spent doing this dont think we have nothing between the ears because we are approaching the problem differently.

I don't assume the old timer who loads a round and sticks with it and never changed it for decades simply because the first load he tried managed to cycle his gun has **** for brains either. It's just a different mindset from a different age, no more nor no less valid than the nearly ocd level of research that that younger generation displays.

thank you for allowing the next generation of reloader in to your wonderful hobby, and thank you for teaching us your decades of knowledge. it may not appear as though we are paying attention or learning correctly, but rest assured we are. we are paying attention not only to what you say, what the manuals say, we are contrasting that with other sources and designing a load that is taking into account all the above, tailored specifically to our situation and designed to do specifically what we want it to do.

so with respect, don't mistake our methods for being something other than it is. we were raised questioning everything and when someone asks for your load, they are not trying to copy it to get out of the work of developing it, you are just becoming one more piece to the puzzle, one more dimension to the end product.

no one is going to just blindly copy what you post and use it for 50 years. you can rest assured of that.

[DRNurse1]

I read this thread again, because I thought I missed something.

Turns out I did. This thread clearly states the problem: folks do not seek an answer before they try to ask the right question.

But, I think the real, endemic, problem may be folks do not know how/ where to seek the answers, nor how/ why/ of whom to ask the question. They were never taught how to research and apply the results, document the outcomes then revise the process based on that result. The most basic application of the scientific method is missing from the questioners!

[dancingbear41]

A few years ago when pistols were banned in the UK we switched to shooting what are now called gallery rifles, in other words, pistol calibre rifles. Because I had been shooting such rifles for a few years at that time I was approached by a few, very good pistol shooters, and asked what my magic load was for my lever action carbines. I was so tempted to make one up on the spot and those guys would have gone away and used whatever I said. However, I explained that there was no such thing and they would have to work one out for themselves, for their rifle.

I like reloading manuals, I have a number that span several decades. Although I have read that you should use manuals that are from the same period as the powder you are using and with that in mind I use downloaded manuals for my new powders. But I still have some powders from a decade or two ago and beyond, so those old books are great!

Simon.

[jonp]

The miracle load? Isn't that what Obamas mom dumped about 50 years ago?

:groner:[smilie=l:

[jonp]

I went through the thread again to see if I missed something (I wish I had missed #123). It seems to me that the biggest gripe from everyone is not people asking questions but not asking the right question.

There is a difference between asking "what is a good load for a 200gr 45acp boolit" and "My Lyman #49 lists 19 powders for a 200gr boolit. What would be the best powder to start with as I can't afford to buy them all" or "there are way too many powders for the 200gr 45acp for me to figure out which would be the best to start with. Anyone have some advice on one that would work well for target practice as a place to start?"

[btroj]

Yep. It comes down to asking a question with a reasonable scope of answers. This is why the "best" type questions don't work well.

Asking a specific questions lends itself to a specific answer.

This has made me think of a thread we haven't had in while. This is always good for a can of worms getting opened.

[KCSO]

I don't mind folks asking so much as when you give somebody an answer, say 12.5 of Red Dot behind a .... And the first think they say is well how about 13.2 . or could I use Unique instead ? Why ask if you are going to ignore the advise anyway?

[edadmartin]

yep a newbe here. I'm very willing to hear what you pros say, just speak slow and clear. I'm loading only 45 acp at this time, later on 12 guage. Since powder seems to be so hard to get without pre ordering, In general is there a powder that I can use for both the 12 guage and 45 acp? I'm speaking of plinking, not home defense, thanks

[btroj]

Lots of powders will work for 45 ACP and 12 guage. Look at Red dot and Promo for starters. Clays would be good too.

That is a simple combination to feed with a single powder and a single powder will perform very, very well in both. No compromise needed here

[Cane_man]

i thought 16gr of 2400 was THE miracle load for CB rifle?

[jonp]

yep a newbe here. I'm very willing to hear what you pros say, just speak slow and clear. I'm loading only 45 acp at this time, later on 12 guage. Since powder seems to be so hard to get without pre ordering, In general is there a powder that I can use for both the 12 guage and 45 acp? I'm speaking of plinking, not home defense, thanks

8lb keg of Promo is about $96 not including shipping and HazMat. That is a good place to start with 12g and 45acp for plinking

[David2011]

I'm part of this generation. I didn't buy load manuals, I downloaded them, I can read them on my phone while at work, on my computer while at home etc.

Load manuals are interesting resources but as they are publishing a little bit for EVERYONE often times they use bullets that are vastly different than what I am using. They are unimaginative, giving generic loads designed to perform mediocrely across all platforms when what I want are loads designed to sing in my pistol.

. . .nearly ocd level of research that that younger generation displays.



Smokesahoy,

Welcome to CastBoolits. Watch, read, learn.

Did you download manuals on online guides? They are not the same thing. I've not seen any true reloading manuals on the Internet. The online guides from the various manufacturers are a great resource if you already have a solid background. They're more like Clif Notes for Reloaders.

The second statement I quoted shows your lack of understanding. The loads in manuals are scientifically developed using pressure measuring equipment so the publisher KNOWS what the pressure is for the load. "Generic" and "mediocrely" in your terms equals "safe in all guns of that caliber that are in good condition" to me. An example of safe loads that may not zing would be the 6.5mm Swedish Mauser. There were many rifles produced before the excellent Model 96 and Model 38 Swedish Mausers that were chambered for the round. Those older guns can't tolerate the pressure that a Model 96 or 38 can and would be unsafe with the max loads for the 96/38. The result is that factory ammunition is manufactured and reloading manuals written for the weakest common denominator.

A load that will safely zing in my .44 Mag T/C Contender would split a S&W Model 29 wide open in the hands of the shooter.

If you really think the younger generation invented that level of research you need to study harder. The Wright brothers did their share of questioning and research. They invented the research. I have had friends that put man in space and more importantly brought them back safely- with a slide rule. There are people on this website who have been refining their loads and shooting techniques for longer than I have been around and I'm sure I fit your definition of the older generation.

If you are interested in finding out just how much research the older guys do, spend some time reading "Secrets of the Houston Warehouse"
at http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html.

David

[edadmartin]

btroj thanks for the info.
I was looking at a powder burn rate chart and red dot is a fast clean burn which is great for my indoor range. Clays is a slower burn right? how does burn rate come into play? when is slow or fast better than the other? Also are both flake type powders? lastly what is your take on using a lee pro disc powder measure with flake powder vs spherical, for very consistent throws of powder. I have a lee charge bar too, should I be using that instead??

[josper]

To those that think quickloads is perfect think again. I found a glitch for 45-70 using RX7 . For the load I was working on the pressure stated was 50,000 +, Cross referenced In the reloading manual the pressure was much less [27,000 or so.] Most of the time its right but you must remain vigilant.

[dudel]

No, I think OP has a valid point. Some people just want ammo to go bang, others want to work up a load for their gun, components, style, etc.

I'll help as much as I can on the net; but I won't give out a load on the internet. Not trying to be mean and nasty, I just realize I make mistakes. I wouldn't want a typo to be misinterpreted as valid load data. One slip of a period in propellant weight or OAL can lead to some problems. Transposition or substitution in a propellant name or charge weight could also have adverse consequences. There are just too many things to go wrong, and I don't want to contribute to them.

At least the load manuals get reviewed and edited so there is *some* level of confidence in them. If cost is an issue, then get a Loadbook in the caliber you want. In there you will find published data from propellant, bullet and equipment manufacturers. Costs all of $5. You won't get the course in reloading; but you will gets lots of load data in one easy reference.

[myg30]

David2011, That my friend was a worth reading story. awesome . Thanks for the link.

Mike

[ghh3rd]

So many new reloaders who are in a hurry to load and shoot - makes me wonder if I should purchase a flak jacket to use at the range :-)

[smokesahoy]

David- with all respect you either misread or misunderstood me. I do not refer to cliff notes or the equivalent. Whether or not you have seen something has very little meaning.

And when I refer to mediocre we seem to be agreeing. It is written to the lowest common denominator. Work the load to the gun. Agreed.

As to research, my hat is off to the heroes of the past. We wouldn't be where we are today without them.

That being said there has never been a time where more information has been available to the masses than now. You cannot even seriously attempt to compare how much harder and slower it was back in the day. And then when you got this document, finally, it might have well been the word of god as chances are there were no dissenting pieces shelved right next to it.

No. Some things would not have been possible to create and publish in the world of research if not for the internet.

But it is its own worst enemy. Best practices combine both.

[josper]

This tread has reminded me of something I read long ago. "Arguing with an infantry soldier is like wrestling with a pig. Every one gets dirty and the pig loves it" This is a friendly site, can't we keep it that way? Lets end this thread and move on.

[MtGun44]

I actually KNOW THE load for .45 ACP.

But I'm not tellin'.

:bigsmyl2:

Bill

[btroj]

Bill, has the shooting market even decided on The Bulletfor the 1911 in 45 ACP?

[45sixgun]

If you really think the younger generation invented that level of research you need to study harder. The Wright brothers did their share of questioning and research. They invented the research. I have had friends that put man in space and more importantly brought them back safely- with a slide rule. There are people on this website who have been refining their loads and shooting techniques for longer than I have been around and I'm sure I fit your definition of the older generation.

If you are interested in finding out just how much research the older guys do, spend some time reading "Secrets of the Houston Warehouse"
at http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html.

David

Thanks, David. That was worth the price of this little cyber forum coaster ride. I really enjoyed reading that eye-opener of an article for me.

But do the manuals divulge that sort of information?

Seems to me that the manuals cover the basics, but one must read and "research" much more widely to learn some of these "secrets" of performance and accuracy.

While I don't have a manual, I do have and study Veral Smith's book Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets. The sort of stuff in that article you posted, and the sort of information in Veral's book is what really matters to me. I'll spend my limited money on that information over the basics, which are readily available for free online. Correct me if I'm off base.

Sorry to keep the thread that won't quit alive....

[MtGun44]

I know that one, too, but not tellin'

:bigsmyl2:

Bill

[btroj]

Great, Bill has THE answer but he won't share.

My 1911 likes what it likes so that is what it gets fed.

[cbrick]

Great, Bill has THE answer but he won't share.

I too know "THE answer" and I ain't tellin either! Need to keep the competition down ya know. :veryconfu

Rick

[btroj]

But is your THE answer the same as Bill's THE answer?

I don't suppose either of you will PM me THE bullet for my 1911, will you? I hate to think I am piddling my life away feeding it Mihec 200 swc..........

[MtGun44]

LOL! Love it, Brad.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Gotta rub this in a bit - - - - it was 83 yesterday and that is too darned hot, today was sunny and 71 which is
a heck of a lot better than back home where it was a high of 27, zero last night, snow on the ground. Great
visiting the relatives in Fla, but will be home in the REAL winter soon enough.

Bill

[cbrick]

But is your THE answer the same as Bill's THE answer?

Ok, I'll share the "Miracle Load". Bill and I use the same boolit that we both also supply the military with. The military changed the name to "smart projectiles" cause it don't matter where you point the muzzle the boolit goes right where you want it. Believe me, that is a miracle. [smilie=s:

Rick

[btroj]

Rick, I use the Mihec 200 swc I got because you needed to bow out of the group buy a few years back. That is just a wonderful mould and bullet.

I do owe you for the opportunity to get such a great mould. It may not make smart bullets but it sure makes darn good ones.

[cbrick]

Yep, I remember that, that's when I broke my knee. Just thinking about that hurts. I think I'll avoid doing that again. :-|

Rick

[btroj]

The knee or me getting the mould?

I remember it well......

The mould that is. Knee didn't bother me much....

[cbrick]

The knee or me getting the mould?

Both of course, you have plenty of molds and I'll leave the knees as they currently are. :mrgreen:

Rick

[kweidner]

Having loaded over many decades, I think many points are valid. I too agree loading manuals are a must. The load data available on the net from powder manufacturers is a good tool. It is not the end all. Guys most of us shoot custom molds where there is no definitive answer less a starting point. Keep in mind many new reloaders don't have access to the mentor many of us had. Places like these are their mentors. I have started many into reloading. I always suggest starting with the lee loader first. Understanding how things work is imperative. Hand tools give an experience unlike anything else. From there move to a single stage. Only if you shoot volume should you move to a progressive and only after MANY years of single stage stuff. JMHO get a manual and read read read, when I first started casting all I had was the Lyman. I good start but not enough. Places like this are a supplement for that knowlege not the starting point IMHO.

[pls1911]

Loading manuals, documented personal experience (Like Ken Water's "Pet Loads), powder and bullet manufacturer data, coupled with genuine interest, and an investment of time reading is cheap insurance against a really bad day at the range.

A little knowledge will also likely hasten the discovery of any shooter's personal preferred recipe... and therein lies the magic.

[mpmarty]

Many folks out there who refuse to read are dyslexic. I can think of no greater danger than a dyslexic reloader figuring out a powder scale or measure. "refuse to buy a book? Please go away".

[Tn Jim]

The guy that got me started reloading in '89-'90 owned every loading manual in print, I think. When we started, he had me read the instructional part of a manual. When I gave it back to him he simply handed me another one. After he had me read everything he had he invited me to his house and sat me in front of his loading bench and said, "you know what to do, so do it". He sat right there and watched everything I did and only spoke if I asked a question or he saw I was about to do something wrong. When I was finished we went and shot every round (.38 Spec out of a 4" Taurus).

Since then I have added a few calibers along the way and started casting too. I read everything I can get my hands on, which is how I found this sight in the first place. I currently own 5 loading manuals and am constantly going back and checking one thing or another in them. I also check them against each other if I'm not sure about something. I would also be willing to bet at least half of my reloaded rounds were fired in load development. When I first started I had a few people give me a starting point, but I ran with it from there.

Long and short of it? If you want to know what a load will do/is capable of, research it to make sure it's safe. Reduce to minimum and get your butt to the range!! Paper reloading is fine, but doesn't tell you anything like pulling the trigger will.

[JSnover]

Would it kill you to buy one book? Seriously. The anti-gunners already think we're a bunch of knuckle-draggers...

[mikeym1a]

I currently own 10 different loading manuals. Most are pre-1980. I've a few newer ones. I'm presently in the process of buying copies of the Ideal manuals. I've got a copy of the 1891, and want to get one for every 5 years. I have a history degree, so I find this progression interesting, plus, there is some very interesting info available, at least, to me. In trying to figure out a load, I often pull out ALL of my manuals, comparing what they say. I feel that the more info I have, the better decision I can make. I want to try and get it right the first time.

[Taylor]

Blessed are the peace makers....

Thanks, Mike.

That holds it's own meaning to me,now back to reading.

[Taylor]

:holysheep

[David2011]

Seems to me that the manuals cover the basics, but one must read and "research" much more widely to learn some of these "secrets" of performance and accuracy.

While I don't have a manual, I do have and study Veral Smith's book Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets. The sort of stuff in that article you posted, and the sort of information in Veral's book is what really matters to me. I'll spend my limited money on that information over the basics, which are readily available for free online. Correct me if I'm off base.

Sorry to keep the thread that won't quit alive....

45Sixgun,

You're reading some good literature. The MANUALS do cover the basics. The data available on the manufacturers' websites does not quite reach the level of "the basics." As I said in another post, the websites are more like Clif Notes for experienced loaders. I use mostly Alliant, Winchester, Hodgdon and IMR powders. None of the website data for any of those powders is as complete as the manuals I have. The freebie boolkets from the manufacturers often have even less information than their websites.

There is a lot of good information available on the Internet. My concern and I believe that of many of the more cautious in this thread is that the inexperienced reloader does not have the background to know when something doesn't look right or may ignore advice to work up incrementally. A change in primers may change the results of a load. Another issue is the powders fom various manufacturers that have similar names. There are at least 3 called 4895, 4 different 4831s and 4 4350s. How about RE-7, HS-7, and AA No.7? Interchanging data could result in anything from a damged cartridge or blown primer to a catastrophically disassembled gun with the shooter's head inches from the chamber.

Not everything is in the manuals. For darned sure it's not all available on the Internet. I go my USPSA load information from other shooters at the club where I was shooting when I started. We were all using the same boolit, powder and primer and all shooting idenical pistols. I still worked it up and used a chronograph.

When I start to work up a load I check Lyman, Sierra and Hornady manuals, write the info down and compare it to information based on actual experiences on the Internet. I start with the most conservative printed data. Sometimes the spread even among printed data is cause for concern. I recently worked up a load for a Browning BAR using Nosler 180 grain Ballistic Tips and H4350. One published source listed the same powder charge as a starting point that another listed as the max. Solution was to load up a ladder test and go to the range with a chronograph. With the BAR it has to be safe, adeqately accurate and adequate to cycle the action. That's lot to balance.

While I'm not an expert I have been loading since before the personal computer was invented so had to load from printed material. In the early '80s it seemed like every pistol rag was publising a new latest and greatest hot load for the Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt. That was good for a case of tendonitis! Another good source of information is Handloader Magazine. The first time I saw it I wondered how there could be enough new information to make a periodical magazine on the subject. It has become my favorite magazine.

David

[45sixgun]

Thanks for those thoughts, David.

The tone of some here would lead one to believe that there are a lot of idiot newbie reloaders out there blowing limbs off themselves. But aren't these sorts of accidents quite rare? I think the more common (or at least as common) accident comes from the experienced reloader (maybe with five manuals on his shelf) who absent-mindedly double charges his case.


Would it kill you to buy one book? Seriously. The anti-gunners already think we're a bunch of knuckle-draggers...

I guess I'm just a knuckle dragger....one of those clingy, bitter types too. (And, seriously, I don't care what the anti-gunners think. How much would I need to change and give up to make them happy? No thanks!)

I've had no problem using available (and free) resources (minus manuals) to get some good accurate loads for my guns (e.g. 250 grain SWC with Unique powder and a standard primer...how hard is it to learn your parameters?). I don't feel the need (and can't afford it anyway) to try all kinds of variables charted in the manuals just to see what they do when I pull the trigger. I'm happy as a clam. Maybe I'm just not serious enough about this hobby. Maybe I'm dyslexic and just haven't figrued ti uot eyt. But when fancy strikes and time allows, I'll heat up my pot, cast some bullets, load some rounds, and have a very relaxing day at the range. If reading four manuals before putting a case in the loader suits you better, I have no problem with it. That's cool. I don't criticize you at all. I just have a problem when you say there's only one way to do it....your way. And everyone else who doesn't do it that way is a......

[JSnover]

Never said there was only one way to do it. But I suppose if I only did one thing, one way, I wouldn't need no steenking books...

[AKbushman49]

OK Folks- I absolutely love this site, and I concur with most all that's has been written, however there are situations that are not readily covered in some of the reloading manuals. I will layout a scenario that occurred a few yrs ago. And just to clarify I have over 15 manuals, a ton of Handloader, Rifle mags, Pet loads, and PC programs on reloading. Anyway here is the scenario:
A gentleman came to the island in search of a trophy Brownie. Had a 338 Win mag with factory ammo, and some hand loads. He was an accomplished handloader as he told me numerous times.
Anyway I asked which ammo was he going to use on this hunt, he said he was going to use his handloads. OK have you zero'd your rifle with the handloads? Nope they are the same as the factory loads he brought. (?) So lets check them out and make sure. 2nd round out he had a near case head separation! Stuck bolt UGH. So we take the rifle to my shop where we removed the stuck case. Pulled the bullets and see what was wrong. Since I had the manual he said he used we double checked. Charge was right, brand and bullet weight were right, OAL was correct for his rifle and bullet seated a little off the lands. Guesses folks?
The rest of the story. How do you adjust your die set up? If you read RCBS's instructions they tell you to screw the die down till it touches the shell holder,and back off 1/4 turn right? As that round headspaces on the belt right? Well in this case no, set the die to headspace on the shoulder. His problem was he set his shoulder back about .03", following those instructions. Since I also had a setup for that round we checked with my set up and no problems. (but my dies are set to headspace on the shoulder with was at least a full turn not 1/4) In this case we saved the rifle as it wasn't ringed. Now I am not a gunsmith, but I read a lot as this is my passion, and one of my favorite subjects. The only manual that mentioned headspacing on the shoulder for ALL shouldered cartridges was PO Ackley's. Also we didn't have the internet back then. Moral: One can never have too much info on our subject. bushman

[sniper]

Did I miss something last night when I went to bed ?

I never looked for the one load moa bullet combo in anything.

SAY WHAT?:wink: I bet we all have...just once, you understand!


I try to smelt out side, run a fan too. Am I going through " LEADAPAUSE" ? Missed my Paxil ? Just being an old grump ? ( nothing meant grumpy).

Im OK Now, Sorry. MIKE


WHY Didn't you tell us exactly what you are thinking?:mrgreen: