DO NOT Use A Bic Lighter For Fluxing!!

[Foto Joe]

A word of warning to casters, new and old.

Yesterday afternoon I fired up the pot for a short casting session. My typical fluxing procedure is to shave off a little paraffin wax off the block on the bench, drop it in and of course light it off. I've been doing this since I started casting in June and about the only thing I've had to adjust is that a "little bit" of paraffin goes a long way, that is until yesterday...

After dropping in the paraffin with my gloved right hand I reached for the Bic lighter laying on the bench, reached over to the pot with it and hit the striker. The next thing that happened was that the Bic went flying out of my gloved hand, ricocheted off the rim of the pot and landed on the floor while I stood there with a stupid look on my face imagining what would have happened if that little butane bomb had landed in the pot instead of taking a flyer off the rim. Suffice it to say that I'm gonna pick up a BBQ lighter at the store today, I don't even want to think about what would happen to a little plastic lighter that fell into a 650 degree pot of molten lead.:dung_hits_fan:

[Full Mold Jack]

Thanks for the warning.

I've always used a bbq lighter or tossed in a match mainly so I don't get my hand to involved in the process. I've never thought about what might happen with a lighter.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Have you ever thought about using sawdust for your flux? It sure works well. Thanks for the heads up on the Bic. Safety reminders are always good to have.

[dondiego]

I have always kept a book of matches near my casting setup. When the time comes to flux, I add the flux and toss an unlit match into the pot. The match ignites and burns with the flux material and reduces the smoke output. I once left a butane lighter on the shelf of my grill on a slightly windy day. It blew up with great authority and hit me with shrapnel. Luckily, no permanent damage. I couldn't imagine having one blow on a 20 pound pot of molten alloy. That would produce the tinsel fairy's, fairy godmother!

Edit - Don't leave a butane lighter laying out in your black vehicle on a real sunny day either! Trust me.

[btroj]

Yep, just toss an unlit match in. Once it hits the lead it will light just fine.

[Larry Gibson]

I always toss a couple wooden matches on top of the partially melted wax. They ignite and the beeswax or paraffin wax fumes burn w/o smoke. As I flux I guess I then get the benefit of wood as a flux also? Has been working great for me for many years.

Larry Gibson

[bhn22]

Yep, just toss an unlit match in. Once it hits the lead it will light just fine.

Even matches that are old, or have been stored in high humidity light perfectly. Heck, even the "green" matches light, sometimes they won't light any other way.

[popper]

Try throwing one of those 'hand grenades' at the concrete hard. When I toss candle wax in the 700F pot, it lights itself.

[Ben]

As you are well aware, if that Bic Lighter had fallen into the hot alloy, you'd have had a VERY BAD DAY.

[Foto Joe]

As I've said before, I need to learn something new every day. As simple as the match trick is, I hadn't thought of that. I do know that it's pretty hard to come up with a book of matches anymore, the stores don't give 'em away like they used to.

Regarding sawdust:

When I'm at home in Wyoming I cast in my shop which has a never ending supply of sawdust but I still don't use it. I seem to have better luck with the paraffin it seems. That and the paraffin is right there on the bench and I don't have to get into the dust box under the table saw.

[Aunegl]

When I was taking welding classes, many moons ago. We were instructed to keep our Bic lighters out of the front pockets. Each of those lighters were equivalent to a quarter stick of dynamite.

[Freightman]

Welder was killed when a piece of slag fell in his pocket with a Bic, wasn't a pretty sight, no liters were ever allowed again in the shop.

[Tatume]

When I flux I try to stir the fluxing material deeply into the alloy and thoroughly stir it in, while scraping the sides and bottom of the pot. I deliberately try to avoid igniting the flux, so as to be able to stir it in for a longer period. Why do you light the flux?

[country gent]

At work about once a year ( sooner if something had happened in one of the many plants) everyone in the skilled tradesdivision got the saftey talk / movie about butane plastic lighters in the shop welding area. several have been injured when welding sparks hot metal have meted thru and ingnited them. This is an ongong issue . Die cast also got the same. Ive always carried a zippo ( not sure how safe that really is either) but its a concern. Ive seen hem where metal chips have melted into the plastic never to the pointof a leak but you dont know how much farther was left either.

[engineer401]

Back in the 70s when I started Boy Scouts my Dad told me never to light a gas stove with a gas lighter. As a teenager in the 80s an old welder told me never carry a lighter while welding. It always seemed to be sage advice to keep lighters away from heated sources.

[MTtimberline]

I have been using the BBQ lighter, but now I think I will use the green strike nowhere matches since that may be all they are good for.

[WILCO]

Suffice it to say that I'm gonna pick up a BBQ lighter at the store today, I don't even want to think about what would happen to a little plastic lighter...

Trading one butane bomb for another one is a recipe for disaster.
Be safe, use a wooden match.

[bangerjim]

I use one of those long flexible neck butane lighters used for gas grills and water heater pilots. Works great, your hand is way back, and you cannot drop it in!

Also works well for heating up the spigot on my 4-20 to get the soup flowing after adding some ingots.

And it is refillable!!!!!!!

banger

[geargnasher]

I have a box full of little sticks with some colored stuff on the ends. Works for me.

Gear

[454PB]

Or just use Marvelux and avoid lighters all together:coffee:

[bruce381]

""I stood there with a stupid look on my face""

yeah thats me trying to exsplain to my why I'm doing somthing she thinks is stupid dumb and she mentions what i'm doing

[labradigger1]

When I was taking welding classes, many moons ago. We were instructed to keep our Bic lighters out of the front pockets. Each of those lighters were equivalent to a quarter stick of dynamite.
true that, my instructor taught us the same thing exactly. I usually use a bbq lighter or my trusty zippo as i am still stupid and still smoke!

[Bigslug]

Long fireplace stick matches are the ticket. Light them in the flame of the propane burner, then transfer to the flux. No need to have pressurized containers of butane in the presence of molten metal.

[HNSB]

I just toss a wooden match on top of the melt, after fluxing with wax and stirring.

The other day I did have a hot sprue go into my box of matches. I don't know if it would still be hot enough to light one if it landed on the head, but I moved my matches to a different part of the bench to be safe.

[303Guy]

Sawdust smells better than paraffin wax. Wax is not a flux as such but burning it produces a CO₂ which is a reducer and if nothing else will eliminate oxidation while stirring. Sawdust on the other hand is a flux which is a reducer which removes oxygen from the oxide releasing the metal. One can test this by collecting flux, heating it and adding sawdust and stirring. Beads of metal will appear.

I too worked in an environment with molten metal - aluminum. The bic lighters were said to have cause quite impressive explosions when dropped onto molten aluminum (temp around 700 °C). It happens to splash the stuff around which is what causes the injuries. (The worst aluminum related explosions are from molten aluminum being poured onto wet rust. That's a true detonation).

[Baron von Trollwhack]

With sufficient ventilation to suck out the smoke, FIRE is not needed to flux the pot. Even with fire one still needs to vent the fumes.

[Ole]

I always just flux and not pay any attention to whether it lights or not.

Thanks for the warning though. :)

[dbosman]

A long time ago, I was a park ranger, living in the park. One night I lit a fire and left the butane lighter on one of the fire ring rocks. About an hour later there was a sudden whooshing and a flat round plate of fire centered on where I'd left the lighter. It was absolutely startling. That's about all it was. Oops.
I don't buy into stories of a welder dying by lighter. Even standard shop clothing would stop the something the size and velocity of a lighter.

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/lighters.asp

Dropping one into a pot of molten lead could be an entirely different event.

[62chevy]

The paraffin starts on fire in the pot all by it's self no match needed. Am I doing something wrong like the pot is to hot?

[303Guy]

The problem with paraffin fumes self igniting is the unexpectedness of it. One can lose eyebrows and singe hair! Trust me on this one. One could also drop something hot onto themselves - maybe?

[Hardcast416taylor]

Welder was killed when a piece of slag fell in his pocket with a Bic, wasn't a pretty sight, no liters were ever allowed again in the shop.

This was an often repeated safety warning to ALL welders and millwrights where I worked to NOT use or have a butane lighter in shirt or pants pockets when either welding or using gas torches cutting metal.Robert

[jeepyj]

I always just flux and not pay any attention to whether it lights or not.

Thanks for the warning though. :)

I agree with this 100% - Jeepyj

[trapper9260]

When I flux I try to stir the fluxing material deeply into the alloy and thoroughly stir it in, while scraping the sides and bottom of the pot. I deliberately try to avoid igniting the flux, so as to be able to stir it in for a longer period. Why do you light the flux?

I do the same I do not light the flux .also will get more of the junk out also.

[Foto Joe]

Trading one butane bomb for another one is a recipe for disaster.
Be safe, use a wooden match.

Point taken....I'll head for the hardware store prior to another casting session for farmers matches.

When I'm home I use one of those long BBQ lighters simply because it's on the bench in the shop. The likelyhood of dropping it in the pot is minimal but even so the thing shouldn't be anywhere near that pot I agree. Simple little things like this seem second nature to those of you who have been doing this for a while but for the novice we might not think of the danger we put ourselves into by having a butane lighter within arms reach of a pot.

While I'm admitting "stupid" here's another little tidbit for you...

I keep an old pie tin in front of the pot. While fluxing I just drop the dross into the pie tin and when done I'll dump it in the trash leaving the pie tin open for sprues etc. that will go back into the melt to cool it off if need be. A week or so ago when I was casting I needed to flux again about half way through the pot and I had some sprues and a couple of wrinkled boolits in the pie tin and didn't want to dump the dross in there with them. Instead I just reached over and tapped the spoon on the rim of the trash can that sits under the bench. Unfortunately I forgot that I had pulled a few boolits and dumped the contaminated powder into the trash can. The result wasn't too dramatic but it was one of those "DUH" moments. Thankfully it was just smokeless powder, if it would have been Black Powder it would have really gotten my attention.[smilie=b:

[725]

Good judgment comes from experience, while experience usually comes from bad judgment. (or something close to that -- per Will Rogers) Glad you weren't hurt.

[62chevy]

The problem with paraffin fumes self igniting is the unexpectedness of it. One can lose eyebrows and singe hair! Trust me on this one. One could also drop something hot onto themselves - maybe?

I know what you mean that's why I toss it in stand back till it starts to burn with a load poof.

[bangerjim]

The paraffin starts on fire in the pot all by it's self no match needed. Am I doing something wrong like the pot is to hot?

You will find that paraffin "gas" ignites easier and it boils at lower temps than mother nature's good old bees wax. I NEVER have beeswax self-ignite......unless the pot is waaaaaaaay too hot. Paraffin will go up in a big wooosh flame at any moment! Very dangerous. Almost explosive in nature. That is why I don't use paraffin. Unless it is a huge dirty pot and I am a least 3 feet away.

And beeswax smells much better!

banger

[jonp]

Would that be called the Butane Fairy?
I use a bbq lighter. Workes great

[snuffy]

I always laugh when I hear that myth repeated about someone getting their leg "blown off" from a butane lighter in the pocket. First, it's not under a lot of pressure. Second it's LIQUID butane, it must first vaporize, then mix with the atmosphere to even burn at all. It would have to be mixed with pure oxygen to explode, then the mix would have to be at the right ratio.

People that accept that kind of hogwash aren't thinkers, and don't know basic science.

As for what would happen to a butane lighter in a 700 degree lead pot, I don't know. BUT I think it would hiss when the pressure envelope was breached, then the butane might ignite. But an explosion would AGAIN require the butane to be mixed with pure oxygen. Atmospheric air would result in the yellow flame you see when you flick your bic.

[wistlepig1]

I use a welding striker, works well for me, does anyone see a problem with a welding striker. Thanks for the info on the Bic, hadn't heard of that one.

[Baryngyl]

A few years back I was selling bic type lighters, I had some of them in a homemade glass top display case, the case was about 12X36X8or9 inches deep.
I did not even think about how hot it was outside and having the lighters in the case sitting in the sun on the tailgate of the pickup, after about 2 hours or so of sitting there, there was a loud pop sound as one of the lights exploded, it did not ignite the gas or it might have made a much bigger explosion, it did not even crack the glass, just knocked stuff around in the case and scared us all.



Michael Grace

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I can not understand what some folks are "thinking" when they are doing this activity.
Never use a Lighter to light your flux #1 dumb move, 2nd make sure you never toss in some lead that is damp or wet. There is a lot to not having any unsafe habits......thinking before you act. Glad to see none of you got hurt, a lot of folks have been hurt really badly,:roll: A man needs to Think....:violin:

[Foto Joe]

I can not understand what some folks are "thinking" when they are doing this activity.

It's a case of "ignorance" rather than a case of "stupidity" I'm afraid, ignorance is curable, stupidity is not. Most of us are ignorant on many levels, very few are perfect I would suggest. I for one am no longer ignorant of the possibilities when using a Bic to ignite paraffin and I chose to share that little lesson on this forum to hopefully help others cure their ignorance as well. For many of us who haven't been casting for decades this forum helps us to prevent not only poor boolits but visits from the tinsel fairy and other possibly dangerous situations.


But an explosion would AGAIN require the butane to be mixed with pure oxygen.

I think in this particular instance the term "explosion" is relative rather than definitive. A sudden depressurization of butane on top of a pot of melted lead may not be by definition an explosion unless I'm the one standing over the pot when it happens. The auto-ignition temperature for butane is roughly 760° and the flash point is roughly 140° in air at standard atmospheric pressure. Since paraffin has a flash point of between 390° and 480° and it routinely ignites when put into 700° molten lead, I'd say that the possibility of butane with it's significantly lower flash point igniting when dropped into the same molten lead is pretty good. Here again, I don't want to be the crash test dummy that verifies this theory but according to the MSDS of both products I'd say the odds are a pretty good fireball if you were to drop a Bic into the melt.

Personally, I'll learn from my own experience of a near hit (according to George Carlin, near misses are actually collisions) and switch over to farmers matches.

[Mal Paso]

Who would use a Bic lighter for fluxing? Sawdust is cheaper, besides you'll have a devil of a time mixing the butane and lead.

I've used Polycarbonate Safety Glasses for fluxing. Wasn't sure if that was good enough so I threw some sawdust into the pot, after the glasses.

[303Guy]

:mrgreen: Yes well ...

On the cig lighter 'exploding' in a welders top pocket, it is conceivable that while using a cutting torch in a crouched position the lighter could fall out the pocket and land where the slag is landing. Now a cutting torch works using oxygen - lots of it! So if and when the said lighter bursts under the molten slag it's gonna release a whole lotta gas in an oxygen rich environment and make a big fireball. That can't be good for one's health. It'll singe the poor fella's eyebrows at the very least! At worst it'll kill him. Maybe not straight away. I just thought about it today as I am working as a welder and I've never had a hole burned in my top pocket. I have had my overalls 'wearing out' at waist level where the grinding sparks always seem to hit. I have had things falling out my top pocket though - often.

[Southron]

I have been casting since 1962 and NEVER WEAR ANY TYPE OF GLOVE, using my bare hands makes the casting go much easier and faster. I rarely get burned and IF a drop of lead lands on my hand, I simply shake it off before it burns me. I do always wear eye protection but usually cast wearing just a short sleeve T Shirt and long pants. Have you considered the fact that you were wearing gloves caused you to drop that Bic lighter? Anyway, it is a good idea to keep lighters and water well away from molten lead.

I just make sure I cast in a well ventilated area and always wash my hands after handling lead or casting to get rid of the microscopic lead dust and everything will be fine.

[snuffy]

:mrgreen: Yes well ...

On the cig lighter 'exploding' in a welders top pocket, it is conceivable that while using a cutting torch in a crouched position the lighter could fall out the pocket and land where the slag is landing. Now a cutting torch works using oxygen - lots of it! So if and when the said lighter bursts under the molten slag it's gonna release a whole lotta gas in an oxygen rich environment and make a big fireball. That can't be good for one's health. It'll singe the poor fella's eyebrows at the very least! At worst it'll kill him. Maybe not straight away. I just thought about it today as I am working as a welder and I've never had a hole burned in my top pocket. I have had my overalls 'wearing out' at waist level where the grinding sparks always seem to hit. I have had things falling out my top pocket though - often.

Good thinking. BUT, the torch USES all of the oxygen to burn the acetylene at that high temp to "burn" the steel. That's IF you have a neutral flame with the blue tip inside the cone. Yeah, I'm a retired welder.

I was simply trying to say that a true explosion is just NOT going to happen, just a huge fireball and lots of heat. A welder that had a bic ignite in his pocket would be seriously burned, not a good thing at all.

Joe's scenario of the butane lighter falling on top of 700 degree lead would also result in a huge fireball. Anything within 10 feet would get a burst of very hot flame for a very brief time. Enough to burn skin and set anything easily combustible on fire. Sounds like a myth busters episode. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they already have investigated it.

[303Guy]

Good thinking. BUT, the torch USES all of the oxygen to burn the acetylene at that high temp to "burn" the steel. That's IF you have a neutral flame with the blue tip inside the cone. Yeah, I'm a retired welder. Well, maybe that theory is not very likely.

Does cutting always use all the oxygen (with a stoichiometric flame)? I know I've used excess oxygen (cutting oxygen) to cut steel and I've seen others do the same, mostly to blow the slag away and on thinner material when and oversize nozzle is being used for the material thickness. I have seen ignited material seeming to flare up during cutting but that could simply be due to air being drawn in by the vortex.

[62chevy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_itL0tLHI8Y


Yes Mythbusters did an episode on lighters.

[Recluse]

I rarely ever flux when casting. Instead, I flux and flux and flux some more during the smelting process so that I don't have to flux when casting. My smelting is done outside and I just toss some matches in on top of the bits of candle scraps and then stir. Final flux is done with sawdust.

I cast inside my reloading shop, so I really don't want smoke or excessive fumes from fluxing.

:coffee: