The F word (filler) [Archive]

David R

08-27-2005, 12:58 PM

I am getting erratic velocities in my 222. I want something like a 22rf load for hunting. I tried 5.0 red dot with a 45 grain gc boolit, it didn't like it. I tried 6.0 unique and what ever the starting load is for 2400. The gun liked the unique, but ES is 140 fps. AV is 1988, so this is faster than I care to go, but it does shoot good groups @ 50 yeards. I read here a guy used one sheet of toilet paper in the case. I was thinking this would keep that little bit of unique near the primer. I am going to pick up some Dacron today, how much of that should I use?

Thanks
David

felix

08-27-2005, 01:06 PM

I use toliet paper, and just a loose wad over the powder, punched down very gently. Use a big flake powder like 700X, Herco, and possibly Unique as well, because toilet paper will enclose it better than small granules. I haven't used Unique in 20 years, so you might try some Herco, or 700X, but only when available on your shelf. ... felix

StarMetal

08-27-2005, 01:09 PM

David,

Just use enough Dacron to fill the void between the powder and the base of the bullet. Do not pack it in, use a tool (little screwdriver, allen wrench, nail, etc.) to grab it and bring it down on top the powder rather then pack it through the case neck. With a case as small as the 222 you definately shouldn't be using more then 1/10th of a grain. Best way is to cut it into strips. Depending on what kind of form you Dacron is in. Mine was batting for a quilt. It is 1/2 inch thick. So I cut it nearly into a 1/2 in x 1/2in strip then cut off the proper amount you decided is correct for the cartridge. That's it.

Joe

BruceB

08-27-2005, 01:27 PM

David, g'day!

Dacron is my filler, used for years now, in many thousands of loads.

I try to visualize just how much empty space exists above the charge, and form tufts which will fill that space LOOSELY but completely. Make a series of tufts and keep one aside as an exemplar, or "control", of the size you want. I usually form five tufts at a time, because I place the rounds into fifty-round boxes as they're loaded. This allows easy control over whether you "did" or "didn't" remember to install the tuft in each case.

Using a tool such as a flat-bit screwdriver which fits easily through the neck, I push the tuft in until I feel the "pusher" JUST contact the powder, and I immediately stop pushing at that contact. This usually leaves a bit of the tuft outside the neck, and I tuck that remainder just inside the casemouth, where the seating of the bullet will finish the installation with zero airspace.

I do NOT want a compressed "wad" of the stuff, and I most certainly don't want ANY AIRSPACE AT ALL above the filler. Less is better...use just enough to do the job of taking up case room above the charge. This is not super-critical, however, and a bit too much will do no harm. I created a sample load in a clear plastic tube on one occasion, with powder, dacron and bullet, and carried it around in my pocket for a couple of weeks. Not one grain of powder migrated to anywhere else, in all of those days of jiggling and bumping through my days.

Using dacron will usually raise velocities (and pressure, of course) a tiny amount, but not enough to worry about unless your load is a screamingly-hot maximum one ....not much of a problem with typical CB loads. Something on the order of 50 fps increase or so seems about average. I greatly prefer the fluffy bags of dacron over the sheets of the stuff used for quilts, etc.

Let us know how it works for you.

felix

08-27-2005, 01:40 PM

I worry a little about dacron because of the smallish bore diameter. ... felix

felix

08-27-2005, 01:42 PM

You will need dacron if you use slow powders, and I'd say slower than Herco. TP might be completely consumed almost immediately after ignition. ... felix

StarMetal

08-27-2005, 03:26 PM

Felix

I have purposely used ALOT of dacron in hot loaded SMALLBORES to just see. I wasn't afraid of ringing the chamber or bore. As it turned out, nothing. I don't see where using the proper amount will hurt a smallbore. Why do you say that? Most the time a smallbore equates to a small powder capacity thus a smaller case. This equates into a small portion of dacron used then say in a 30-06. I see no difference in smallbore or largebore. NOW if we had some way overbore, and a drastic example would be 378 Weatherby magnum necked down to 22 caliber, then I might be a little concerned.

Joe

swheeler

08-27-2005, 05:45 PM

David: I'm using dacron in 223 and 22/250 with the 55 gr bator, haven't experienced any problems with its use in these small bores, it is the sheet type sold by K-Mart.
Scooter

David R

08-27-2005, 07:55 PM

Thanks a bunch Guys, I am going to try it and see. I will report back in a few days.

David

PatMarlin

08-28-2005, 04:38 PM

David: I'm using dacron in 223 and 22/250 with the 55 gr bator, haven't experienced any problems with its use in these small bores, it is the sheet type sold by K-Mart.
Scooter

What are you shooting your .223's with?

What twist is the barrel?

... and what kind of performance are you getting- vel, range, accuracy, etc?

I'm breaking in my new .223 bolt with a 1 in 12 twist and copper boolits. So far it seems to like 52gr and under bullets, but I was hoping to be able to shoot my 58gr (as cast WW) loverin ideal mold but it may be to heavy... [smilie=b:

Groups open up to 1" with the 55gr (from 1/2" with 52gr), and then gets progressively worse as I up the weight to 60gr thru 63gr.

Bullshop

08-28-2005, 05:30 PM

What are you shooting your .223's with?

What twist is the barrel?

... and what kind of performance are you getting- vel, range, accuracy, etc?

I'm breaking in my new .223 bolt with a 1 in 12 twist and copper boolits. So far it seems to like 52gr and under bullets, but I was hoping to be able to shoot my 58gr (as cast WW) loverin ideal mold but it may be to heavy... [smilie=b:

Groups open up to 1" with the 55gr (from 1/2" with 52gr), and then gets progressively worse as I up the weight to 60gr thru 63gr.

Weight is not the criticle issue but length. Since cast boolits are heavier for length your 58gn cast is likely about the same length as the lighter and probably pointed jacketed bullets that are working well and should not have any stability issues. A 60+gn fn cast can easily be about the same lenght as a 50-gn pointed jacket.
BIC/BS

PatMarlin

08-28-2005, 07:06 PM

Thanks Dan...

I want to order some of your speed green lube that JR has had so much success with, but I need to find another old Lyman 45.

I hate buying copper bullets, and I would love to get this Howa to kill coyotes with a cast boolit... :mrgreen:

David R

08-28-2005, 07:15 PM

Pat,

If you want I could send you a few 45 grain gas check boolits sized .225 to try. Maybe we could trade me for some 58 grain?

David

PatMarlin

08-28-2005, 11:18 PM

David-

I think your 45gn would be a little light for my needs, but you are welcome to try some of my 58's.

David R

09-01-2005, 09:35 PM

Loading for my Enfield today, I used ONE sheet of toilet paper as a filler in some of my loads.

I tried 22.5 grains of 2400 behind a 311466 157 gr Cast boolit.

Results are in

Without Filler AV 1918 ES 37.61 SD 19.20

With Filler AV1953 ES 23.59 SD 8.83.

Next I tried 31141 22.5 grains 2400.

Without Fillere AV 1800 ES 58 SD 17.49 for a 10 shot sample

With Filler AV 1828 ES 31.41 SD 12.85 for a 5 shot sample

Only problem is the groups were bigger in BOTH instances WITH the filler. Go figure. I think I will get some dacron, the filler does help consistancy.

The toilet paper was not burnt or consumed in any way. When I fired the gun, it made a cloud of paper dust right at the muzzle and there were bits and pieces all over my crony.

David Root

StarMetal

09-01-2005, 11:20 PM

David...use Dacron or Kapok before you run into trouble.

Joe

Bass Ackward

09-02-2005, 08:02 AM

Only problem is the groups were bigger in BOTH instances WITH the filler. Go figure.
David Root

David,

I don't want to confuse you here, because you seem to be in a hurry. But maybe you are like me .... cursed.

I didn't have much luck with either design you that you are playing with. In fact, for 200 yard work, my choices would be the 311467 or the 311284. And between those two, I would recommend the 311467 because it is not dependent on your bore size to work. It's not a bore rider. But never have I ever gotten a filler to turn out to be the ultimate load for any rifle. And the most success was with powders slower than 4198. A really great load in several guns has been 44-46 grains of 4831 with either of those bullets. So you might try the 31141 with that if you have some. The advantage of that load was performance in a hot barrel. With this load, TP helped.

David R

09-02-2005, 05:22 PM

Thanks Bass,

I have a target here that has 5 shots in 1 7/8" @ 100 yards. I used the 311291 over 22.5 grains of 2400, and loaded it shorter than touching the rifling. I am going to load one hundred and try em out at 200 yards.

I feel much better now that I have something that I can at least feel competative with against all those M1s and M16s.

I was surprised that the filler showed worse groups with better ES and SD.

I am going to get some Dacron to try again.

How much 4831 for about 1850 fps with the 31141 or 311291 (the only ones I have right now) ?

I have been wanting to try 4831 but all I can find are full house loads.

Until I found this last load, I was thinking of shooting a 22 rimfire benchrest match @ 200 yards instead of the military match.

Relieved
David

Bass Ackward

09-02-2005, 06:10 PM

How much 4831 for about 1850 fps with the 31141 or 311291 (the only ones I have right now) ?

I have been wanting to try 4831 but all I can find are full house loads.

David

David,

44-46 grains. That should be @ 1600-1800 fps with the lighter bullets. Don't forget your TP.

David R

09-02-2005, 09:58 PM

Thank you, I will try it tomorrow and let ya know how it works.

David R

09-04-2005, 07:06 AM

Buckshot,

I tried 45 grains of IMR 4831 with both boolits. I didn't exptect 1600 - 1800 fps, and I am sure I got more than that by my "kick meter" but they did shoot well. 31141 put 5 into 2 3/8", The 311291 put 8 out of 10 in 2 3/8" plus 2 steenkin fliers that made it 5 1/2" No filler. I let my 13 year old son shoot 5 of em. These are the hottest loads he has shot yet. He did well, put 5 on the paper @ 25 yards without flinching.

I also shot the 311291 over 22.5 grains 2400 @ 200 yards. I kept em all on the paper, so I am getting there.

Going to load some more of those with the 4831 and see how they shoot @ 200.

Thanks
David

David R

09-15-2005, 09:34 PM

I tried 10 311291 with 22.5 2400 in my '06 and 10 more with a piece 1" X 1.5" of dacron on top of the 2400.

Without Filler.......AV 1875, ES 72.86 SD 28.89

WITH filler .........AV 1913 ES 78.36 SD 27.73

10 shot groups

No apreciable difference in ballistics. Groups with filler were much worse.

Maybe I am doing something wrong, until I figure it out, I will not use it.

David

I DID shoot a 5 shot group of 5" at 200 yards with my 1917 Enfield.....No filler.

StarMetal

09-15-2005, 10:21 PM

David

Not that it was the cause of worse groups but a piece of Dacron 1 x 1.5 is WAYYYYY too big. Geez, the case doesn't even have 1/2 inch diameter. Next time try 1/2 square inch long or longer if needed to fill the empty space.

Joe

Bob S

09-16-2005, 12:43 AM

David:

4831 (WW II surplus) and TP at 200 yards, prone ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/BobS_03A3_311284_200_yds.jpg

Also, if you want 311291 to group with 2400 in 30-06, with or without filler, consider 20 grains the upper limit in 30-06. This is the Lee bullet, but 311291 performs the same in the same light loads:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Springfield%2003s/Lee312185152400centered.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

David R

09-16-2005, 06:09 AM

Starmetal,

I read the Lyman handbook, they use 1/2 grain 5/8 square 1/4" thick dacron. Mine is 1/8" and weighed 2.5 grains. I'll try again. I think it shoots pretty well with out the filler, I can see no gain every time I try it.

bobs,

with 20 grains of 2400, the 311291 makes oblong holes @ 100 yards.

Lee group buy c312-1502R and 311466 shoot great with 20 grains 2400.

How much TP? One sheet single Ply? I tried that too, no luck. Maybe I am one of those guys that has better luck with out it. This is an iron sighted rifle and my eyes are getting old.

Awesome groups Bobs

David

Bass Ackward

09-16-2005, 06:36 AM

How much TP? One sheet single Ply? I tried that too, no luck. Maybe I am one of those guys that has better luck with out it. This is an iron sighted rifle and my eyes are getting old.

Awesome groups Bobs

David

David,

Are you working up your loads with filler or just putting it in what worked without it? It raises pressure, so you need to compensate by cutting the charge a little.

I use 1/4 section of TP with the 4831 load. That load appears to be a "good load" for me in warm weather. There are better shooting loads if you can take your time and let things cool. But that'll get you started. And because the pressure IS so slow, it is not very sensitive and it works with many bullet weights. But if you really want 200 yards, then you NEED a good (heavier) mold.

Have you played with sizing?

Bob S

09-16-2005, 07:55 AM

I use only 1/4 sheet TP, rolled into a ball. With 40 grains 4831 and 311284, it gets compressed slightly between the gas check and the powder charge, which is exactly what I want.

If 311291 is tipping w/20 grains 2400, there is something funky with your bore or mould, the sizing diameter is way off, or 20 grains is just too much for that combination of bore, mould and alloy. I have always found the best grouping for 311291 with 2400 to be between 15 and 18 grains in 30-06. That 15 grain load is so reliable that I used it for years to test Springfield barrels ... if a rifle would not group that load under 2" with the service sights, there was something wrong with the rifle. For more speed with that bullet you might try 30-32 grains 4895.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Char-Gar

09-16-2005, 10:34 AM

The topic of fillers always draws fire and opinons and general lack of agreement. So why should I hold back, this once more time? My filler philosopy is:

I use PSB to top off a 70% (load density) or greater charge of medium (3031, 4895 etc.) to slow burning powder. I use enough to give some light compression. Used this way, I "amost" always get some degree of improved accuracy.

Those are my filler parameters.

StarMetal

09-16-2005, 10:50 AM

David

Using feeling isn't law. If that one load shoots better without a filler then that's the one to use. Some loads shoot better with fillers. What I like is a filler usually keeps the bore cleaner. So if I can find a load that shoots half decent with it, I'm happy. Keep playing around, that's the fun of reloading and cast.

Joe

David R

09-16-2005, 06:56 PM

Starmetal, YOU hit the nail on the head. I am just fooling around, and all my fooling around has brought me from 8" at 50 yards to 5" at 200 yards. I shot some groups at 100 last night and was amazed. All 10s and Xs on a 6" bull. My shooting has improved too. I was thinking yesterday, I have fired at least 800 rounds trying to get this thing to shoot. Its working better each time, so am I.

Bass, I just added the filler to the already working load. I think 25 or even 30 grains of 2400 is the max, so I am not worried about pressure yet. Cases size easy, primers look fine with rounded edges. I do think a 311284 would shoot better in this gun. Yes I have played with sizing. a 311466 sized in my 308 die comes out 309 and shoote awesome at 50 yards, but falls apart at 100. I size 310 and the die just knocks off the parting line or a little more. I think this is the best for this gun and situation. The bore is 308 and the groove is .299. This 311291 shoots better than any other boolit I have of the 7 30 cal molds.

I am getting av of 1840 or 1875 and that is what I want. The groups that were tipping at the target were still good groups, but I know enough to speed em up a little.

The 45 grains of 4831 shot pretty good, but was more than I want or need for putting holes in paper which is all I do. I do not hunt big game any more, not enough shooting goes on for me.

The case is maybe 1/3 to 1/2 full with 22.5 grains of 2400, so I "filled it with filler. A 1/2 " square would leave an air space between the filler and boolit. One whole sheet of toilet paper fills the void nicely in my 308, but I have not fired them yet because I'm having too much fun with this enfield.

Once I get the perfect load, the fun is over.

David

Bass Ackward

09-17-2005, 07:37 AM

Bass, I just added the filler to the already working load. I think 25 or even 30 grains of 2400 is the max, so I am not worried about pressure yet. David

David,

You misunderstood my inquiry. The comment wasn't about safety, although it can very well be. But not in this case.

You can't simply change conditions and compare results. Harmonics is harmonics. If you add filler to a normally worked up load, then you raise pressure and change harmonics even if velocity remains relatively close. Same as if you changed primer. Let's use one of my loads as an example. This load holds less than MOA with 46 1/2 grains of RL15 when ignited with a magnum pistol primer. Change to a Rem 9 1/2 rifle primer and accuracy goes to hell. Unless you drop to 45 1/2 grains. Then it comes back, but to only about 1 1/2". So .... try a CCI rifle primer and accuracy goes to hell again. Unless you drop to 45 grains. But then peak accuracy is like 2". Take a Fed 215 and you have to cut back 43 1/2 grains and accuracy comes back to about 1 1/2". Velocity and accuracy "for this load" are highest with the pistol primer.

So had you just changed primer, regardless of which one you worked your load up with, your assumption would be that other primers were crap. The change effect is greater the smaller the case capacity or the faster the powder. So imagine the above test with 2400?