Cast bullets in my 1911

[6bg6ga]

Thought I would share this with other 1911 shooters. I have heard recently that 231 wasn't the best powder because it suffered in both accuracy and being dirty.

Enclosed if I did it right is a 5 or 6 shot group at 25 yards off hand with my 1911. The load is a 230 gr RN and 5.6 grains of 231.

[6bg6ga]

88649

[Bloodman14]

Ain't nuthin' wrong with that!

[6bg6ga]

The gun is a Sig Tac Pac 1911

[6bg6ga]

Ain't nuthin' wrong with that!

One always wishes they could do better. The gun suffers from a somewhat heavy stock trigger which needs some attention. I haven't taken it apart yet so I don't know if there are drop in parts available for it or not. Its as accurate in my hand as my 70 series Gold Cup National Match was.

[6bg6ga]

Ain't nuthin' wrong with that!

Thanks..

Not too bad for an out of the box stock gun.

[Char-Gar]

Bum advise abounds on Internet gun sites as you found out. Good shooting!

[44MAG#1]

If you can do that consistently that is good. Meaning far more times doing it than not being able to do it.

[oldpapps]

I've been using 231 ever since they quit making/selling 230. I've tried (several) other powders and just keep coming back to 231.
Burned many pounds in: .38 Spec, .357, 9MM, 40 S&W, .44s and .32 S&W, .38 S&W, 8MM Nambu but mostly in .45s.

Your listed 5.6 grains, I use that same charge in my 200 grain SWC 45s and 240 grain 44s and 140 grain 40s.

As for dirty, I get more smoke from some of the nasty lubes on boughten bullets.
And accuracy... back when, I did alright in 'PPC' competition, but that doesn't really test accuracy to an degree. I'm happy with what I get.

When/if you find a better powder, let me know and I will try it out.

load with care,

OSOK

[prs]

Thought I would share this with other 1911 shooters. I have heard recently that 231 wasn't the best powder because it suffered in both accuracy and being dirty.

Enclosed if I did it right is a 5 or 6 shot group at 25 yards off hand with my 1911. The load is a 230 gr RN and 5.6 grains of 231.

Check your Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook to notice they (Lyman) disagree with what you have recently heard. Lyman lists the top end 231 as the potentially most accurate load with their 230g lead hardball clone. When using 231 in 45 ACP charges over the starting level, I notice it burns fairly cleanly, although NRA bullet lube residue is probably covering-up much of any powder residue I could notice.

prs

[dragon813gt]

Thought I would share this with other 1911 shooters. I have heard recently that 231 wasn't the best powder because it suffered in both accuracy and being dirty.


Someone lied to you, which you found out. I will never understand the dirty thing. Those people must never have used black powder. 231 is all I use for non magnum handgun loads.

[Kent Fowler]

Excellent results for years using WW 231 or Accurate # 5 in my Series 70. Someone must have heard some "gun store talk" and passed it on.

[ACrowe25]

5.2 under a 200 swc shoots great. Don't know why some claim an issue!

[fcvan]

231 is horrible an dangerous in your 1911. Carefully package and ship to me. I will dispose of it properly through MY 1911

[fredj338]

W231 does fine I just find it a bit smoky w/ conventional lubed lead bullets. Give WST a try. A bit faster but reaches all std vel levels in 45acp bullet wts w/ great accuracy & less smoke & a tiny bit less recoil.

[tomme boy]

Don't you know! Cast bullets don't shoot that well and will lead up your barrel!!!! Shame on you for trying to shoot them!

[knifemaker]

anyone that told you 231 was a unaccurate powder for the 45acp, either can not shoot or does not know how to reload quality ammunition and is blaming his powder to cover his own short comings.

[MtGun44]

W231 is a great powder for .45 ACP, as is it's twin, HP38.

Bill

[6bg6ga]

If you can do that consistently that is good. Meaning far more times doing it than not being able to do it.


To be quite honest I can due this 9 out of ten times. Sometimes I get an occasional flyer. I don't hand pic cases or weigh bullets to obtain these results.


With respect to 231.... I've used it since about 1980 and love it. I generally keep 4 or 5 lbs on hand at all times. I've tried other powders but haven't had the results that I get with 231. I had a load using unique and it was accurate but nothing like 231. To my thinking 231 just naturally goes with the 45acp.

[SWANEEDB]

Kinda wondering what you had the bullets sized at ? .451/452 or what. Thanks

[6bg6ga]

Kinda wondering what you had the bullets sized at ? .451/452 or what. Thanks

No problem...... I size the bullets to .452 using a Magma or Star sizer. The sizing dies are from Lathesmith. The bullet molds are used Magma molds. The bullet lube is a 50/50 alox beeswax. I use wheel weights for my mixture and usually quench them.

[44MAG#1]

I'll say this, if that is a box stock gun and you can do that 90 percent of the time off hand I want to know the brand and model of the gun. I will get me one as soon as I can.
What will the gun do off a rest or with a ransom rest?
That is top notch shooting. That is better than most box stock guns will do from a rest with excellent ammo.
Not often will one see excellent shooting such as that.
Please let me know the brand and model of the gun and any pertinent info on it.
Thanks.
BTW what does that group measure from outside to outside of the widest holes?

[6bg6ga]

I'll say this, if that is a box stock gun and you can do that 90 percent of the time off hand I want to know the brand and model of the gun. I will get me one as soon as I can.
What will the gun do off a rest or with a ransom rest?
That is top notch shooting. That is better than most box stock guns will do from a rest with excellent ammo.
Not often will one see excellent shooting such as that.
Please let me know the brand and model of the gun and any pertinent info on it.
Thanks.
BTW what does that group measure from outside to outside of the widest holes?


44MAG

The info on the box says the following 1911R-45-TACPAC

1911R, 45, Nitron, Contrast, SAO, Tac

88752

The group measures 2.0 in with my vernier. This measurement is from the outside of the farthest holes the largest extent of the group.

All BS a side I can do this time after time with this gun with my loads no wind blowing no rest.

Haven't tried a ransom rest simply because I don't own one. Have trained myself to not use one. I suspect the gun will do better with a rest. * ALSO.... The gun suffers from a crappy trigger in my opinion. The trigger is crisp but not to the pressure I desire.

If you desire more info and more pictures PM me and I will send you everything you want.

[6bg6ga]

This particular series has a laser that mounts on the rail bottom side of the slide. There is another version that has an additional magazine and no laser sight. Date of manufacture on this gun is Feb 2011 so its one of the first models.

This version has the laser and two mags. The other version has no laser and three mags. This has the rubber type grips that work well in your hands.

[jeepyj]

Looking at them there boolit holes I'm guessing I got get me some off that 231 heck I'm not shooting any better that off my rest
I'm impressed
Jeepyj

[geargnasher]

Bum advise abounds on Internet gun sites as you found out. Good shooting!

Yes it does, but just because someone might share their poor experience with 231 in their 1911 cast boolit loads doesn't mean they're wrong.

I've tried every which way from Sunday to get 231 to shoot straight in four different calibers. Even tried some in a bottle labeled "HP-38" to be sure. It universally sucks rocks in my guns and the only reason I haven't given it all away is that someday it might be all I have left to shoot. Now the OLD stuff from 30 years ago, that was GOOD.

Obviously my experiences don't speak for everyone, nor should they.

Gear

[6bg6ga]

I don't know what to tell you. I've got 231 that I purchased 25 years ago and I have 231 that is two months old. I have fired off rounds (45acp 230 RN) that I loaded 25 years ago and they grouped like the target I posted. I have rounds I just loaded and they are the same.

Loading, making an accurate load is done by carefully adjusting the load and recording the results. I generally start at the bottom of the load listed and work up in 1 or 2 tenths. I load 10 or 15 of each and issolate them so nothing gets messed up. The 5.8 load if memory is correct is listed in my manual as the most accurate load for the 230RN bullet using 231. It doesn't work that way in my gun. Mine likes 5.6 better and each gun is different.

I have had instances where I used my ammunition in someone elses gun and managed tight groups. Tried their load and it wasn't as good. No two guns are the same and the bores aren't necessarily the same either. I generally size a tad larger than the bore. Some will agree with this and others won't. I've never had leading doing this. Also I don't generally exceed 1000fps. A 45acp has quite a bit of knockdown power. You do not need to be able to shoot thru a car like a 10mm can. I have one of these also.

[6bg6ga]

Gear,

I hope I am not coming off wrong because I'm not trying to. Re reading what you posted its obvious that you have a lot of time in this sport and experience also that goes along with it. I am puzzled by the results you have with 4 calibers. Would you mind posting your loads that you tried along with oal, powder charge, primer, and group size. Also bore size would be helpful. There has to be a sweet spot and a right load in my opinion.

[Bad Water Bill]

As I told a first time shooter when she complained she did not hit the bullseye every time.

Pick up that target and hold it in front of you.

Out of those 50 shots 0 missed the paper.

Dial 911 and tell them to come and pick up your home invader.

More bullseyes means more trigger time as you well know.

Asking more questions simply provides an other reason for more TRIGGER TIME.:)

[Bloodman14]

Just for kicks, try 4.5 grs. of Red Dot or Titegroup; my RIA loves them (of course, I installed a bunch of Wilson Combat goodies, too!).

[geargnasher]

Gear,

I hope I am not coming off wrong because I'm not trying to. Re reading what you posted its obvious that you have a lot of time in this sport and experience also that goes along with it. I am puzzled by the results you have with 4 calibers. Would you mind posting your loads that you tried along with oal, powder charge, primer, and group size. Also bore size would be helpful. There has to be a sweet spot and a right load in my opinion.

You aren't and I hope I didn't. I'm puzzled too, lots of people like yourself have had excellent results with it. I tried 231 in my 1911's first with cast boolits many moons ago because everyone I talked to seemed to favor it. Mine didn't, and I gave it quite a go. Got an open container of the old stuff from a friend (it was greenish and dull like Universal) and it worked well at the same charges: Better accuracy, cleaner, less smoke, yada yada). Went back to the silvery flaky stuff and it was still no good. Tried it in .38 Special with two different boolits, .357 Magnum, and .45 Colt. Never did try it in .44 Magnum. Modern 231 is still one of the worst powders for the guns I have in those calibers, which is multiple of each. There doesn't seem to be a sweet spot with any charge weight in any of them. It's ok, but just about any other powder on either side of 231 works better, don't ask me why.

Filthy-burning loads don't impress me, but don't scare me off, either. Some of the most consistently accurate handgun loads I've ever developed left the gun looking like you'd dumped a teaspoon of black pepper down the pipe. BUT, a lot of powders start giving accuracy right at the point where they're burning cleanly, and if they do, that's what I go for. Whatever shoots best for the purpose I'm seeking. In MY experience, neither 231 or HP-38 is it.

The whole point of me bringing this up is to illustrate that what works for one person doesn't always work for everyone. I got the implication (perhaps wrong) that Charles was indicating anyone who poo-poos 231 was somehow full of it. It's human nature to assume that what works great for me might serve another quite well too, and with most things it does, but not necessarily so when the all-variable firearm is thrown into the equation. You just proved that. I'm glad it worked for you, but I'm not wrong that it didn't work well at all for me, and I have a lot experience trying to MAKE it work.

Gear

[btroj]

If I learned anything in casting/reloading it is the fact that there is NO universal answer to anything.

Powder, primer, lube, alloy, whatever- someone is having good results and someone else thinks it sucks.

My suggestion- find what works for YOU and ignore the noise. It makes your gun happy, that is all that matters. I don't make ammo to please others, I make it to meet my purposes and shoot in my guns.

[6bg6ga]

Gear,

You have shown me in your explanation that you have given it a try. Any seasoned shooter knows that there isn't one all around best load for all guns. Everything comes into play when trying to obtain a load that has accuracy. In all my years of shooting I have had one gun that was absolutely worthless with any load I tried in it and I finally got rid of it. You use what works best in your gun. In mine 231 seems to work and I have a supply of it. I certainly am not going to criticize someone because a powder won't work for them. I will consider trying your load if you would like to share some info.

[waco]

I like titegroup in my .45ACP
88940

[bruce381]

W231 does fine I just find it a bit smoky w/ conventional lubed lead bullets. Give WST a try. A bit faster but reaches all std vel levels in 45acp bullet wts w/ great accuracy & less smoke & a tiny bit less recoil.

even tho I use 231 this is my observation also, IMHO WST and or AA2 shoots a little smaller group than the 231 BUT the 231 to me seems more repeatable than the others, lately I shoot what I can find.

[Houndog]

I guess I'm way out in the weeds compaired to everyone else here, but the absolute best load for my 3 45's is 6.5gr Unique under a 200gr 452460 cast of 50/50 wheelweights/pure with 2% added tin, air cooled, in Winchester cases and sparked by Federal primers. I've tried many other combinations including Bill Wilson's favorite, 5gr Bullseye over a H&G 68, but keep coming back to my old standby. The one thing I've learned is there's no "magic load" that works in everything and many many combinations can work well. That's the reason we have so many powder, bullet, cases and primer choices to choose from and part of what makes this hobby so interesting.

[TXGunNut]

231 dirty and inaccurate? I get mostly lube residue when I clean my .45's and they were built for speed and dependability, not accuracy. I used to use BE in my .38's and Unique in my .45's, 231 is cleaner than either and works great in both. I've kept a can on 231 on my powder shelf ever since I bought my first can, suppose I always will.

[Char-Gar]

"The whole point of me bringing this up is to illustrate that what works for one person doesn't always work for everyone. I got the implication (perhaps wrong) that Charles was indicating anyone who poo-poos 231 was somehow full of it. It's human nature to assume that what works great for me might serve another quite well too, and with most things it does, but not necessarily so when the all-variable firearm is thrown into the equation. You just proved that. I'm glad it worked for you, but I'm not wrong that it didn't work well at all for me, and I have a lot experience trying to MAKE it work" Gear

You are being defensive and reading things into my post that were not there. Not even close. I have no notion to whom the OP was referencing in his original post about folks telling him 231 was not a good powder for the 45 ACP, but from his own experience and the experience of many others that was not solid counsel.

All anyone can do is relate his own experience knowing that others may not have had the same experience. To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand. It is one thing to say 231 has not worked for me in the 45 ACP and quite another to say, it does not work in the 45 ACP period (with all due respect to POTUS). It is such a dogmatic statement that is bum advice. Again, I don't know where it came from, but I didn't read that in your post on the subject.

Bullseye and 231 have the same applications and I prefer Bulleye just because I have used it for 50 plus years. I have had no problem getting comparable performance from 231. I have no idea why your experience with the powder is at such a variance with the experience of so many others. There is probably a reason, but I would not know where to start looking.

[varmint243]

I breezed over the thread
I learned in other things in life that there is a lot of information accepted as absolute fact that is in no way based in reality.
Pick an appropriate powder, a mid range load and use it.

I have always found the #1 component in handgun accuracy to be the shooter.
My second consideration is the quality of the bullet base.
Any good quality handgun and good quality ammo should be up to the task at 25yds.
IMO time would be much better spent working the basics.

[6bg6ga]

I believe it takes a good match of gun and shooter to obtain good results. No perfect load. What works in one may not work in another. I've shot bullets with non perfect bases and still grouped good.

I haven't gone to the trouble of sorting cases, measuring case length, weighing bullets or trickling powder charges. I shoot a run of the mill mix. What ever goes into the 650 gets loaded and what the powder measure drops is what I get and so forth.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Wish I had kept track now of all the pounds of 231 I have put thru my 1911 and other auto pistols. That target is very decent indeed. Just because chicken little is yelling that the sky is falling, doesn`t necessarily mean that it is!Robert