What's your personal standard?

[Blackwater]

Fellas, I think we've all noticed that each shooter has his or her own personal standards for accuracy with a pistol.
What's your standard with boolits at 25 yds.? Just thought this might be an interesting poll (of sorts). I always strive for 2" or better at 25, though it depends on the particular pistol and application I intend for it. A 2" snubby ain't goan shoot with a 7.5" .44, so standards have to change accordingly. However, slow fire off a bench, I won't keep a gun that won't do 3" or less at 25 for ANY reason, even the 2" snubby. What's your personal standard?

[JWFilips]

25 yds With a good gun ( pistol) on a hand held rest, I sort of push for a ragged hole for 6 ( revolver ) or 5 (Auto) anything less then that & I pretty much know it is me ...unless the load is suspect. But then again this is what happens when you bring a heavy benchrest shooter into a world of cast boolit revolver shooting 20 + years in the future

[geargnasher]

If I had good, safe fun shooting my pistol, then I achieved my standard of success. I'm still recovering from a few years of IDPA shooting that really took the fun out of it for me. If I want to measure groups, it's with rifle work, which is currently mostly WORK.

Gear

[mainiac]

I used to think groups under 2 inches was doing pretty well. Since ive bought the 2 S&W guns with 8 3/8 barrells,they bring the average size down to 1 inch or under. Ive become spoiled by these 2 guns.

Think its the long barrells that help me shoot them better then say, a 5 inch,or 6 inch...

[turtlezx]

2" @ 25 yds !!! i wish better sell my 45acp not gonna happen


thanx for the poll i feel alot better now LOL

[JWFilips]

I do have to admit ( with so much learned here) that to be able to make your own projectile from cast alloy that you concocted from scrap lead and be able to mess up a target, very well at 25 yards has more satisfaction to me then putting 5 j-word bullets from a rifle into a dime at 200yds....Thank You "Big Hats"

[Wolfer]

I'm basicly a hunter so I'm not as interested in group size as where each boolit lands in relation to the sights. At 25 yds I want to be able to hit a rabbit in the head every shot from a field position if I do my part. I personally rarely shoot at a grouse head that far but I will often shoot for the craw. Head on or facing away a direct hit won't tear up any breast and a slight miss will only cost you a little.

[paul h]

I strive for 1" at 25 yds from the bench. No, I can't do that with an iron sighted snubbie but with a 4" or longer barrel I find 2" to be a reasonable expectation for a mechanically sound gun, and with some tuning and load work 1" isn't out of the question. I've had guns that will shoot 1" at 50 yds. Accurate guns sure can spoil you!

[CastingFool]

My eyesight is not what it used to be, so if I can get a 6" group at 20 steps with open sights makes me happy.

[MtGun44]

Actually, a really good 1911 will do under 2" at 25 yds with good ammo. Now an ordinary
run of the mill gun like my Kimber or old Gold Cup with a WHOLE bunch of rounds thru it
will do about 2.5-3" with good ammo, but I have several custom and high end (Dan Wesson)
guns that will do 1" to 1.5" with numerous loads.

Bill

[otter5555]

1" @ 25 yds with a proven cast load, iron sights on a rest or the handgun gets sold. i only shoot 44 mags so it is seldom a problem.

[rintinglen]

Depends entirely on the gun. For a quality , new production revolver, with sights I can see, anything under 2 inches is good, 3 inches is acceptable if the ammo wasn't crafted for that gun. For autopistols, or revolvers with sights I can't see, it varies. I have a 1903 Colt auto that I really like that is hard pressed to make a 6 inch 25 yard group in my hands. I've a Target Woodsman that can put 5 Eley Target 22's in an inch at 25 yards. Most service grade autos ought to shoot into 4 inches at 25 yards, with smaller only better if it retains maximum reliability. A snubby with dinky sights might be fine if I can keep 'em on a paper plate.
For what it's worth, I have never seen an "honest",1 inch, 50 yard revolver. I've seen a couple that would occasionally do it, but that was not the average by any means.

[williamwaco]

I find that a S&W, or Ruger revolver in good shape will do 1" at 25 yards.
Same or a little better for a high quality .22LR autoloader.
I have owned a few, but very few, .45ACPs that will equal that.

I have never owned or fired a 9mm that will come anywhere close to that.

I can't shoot that good but I do expect to get around 1" with a scope and under 2" with factory sights from a good rest or 3" off hand ( two hands )

I can get pretty close to that with a mid frame 2" but not with a small frame 2".
With a 2" J frame I am happy to keep them on a paper plate at 25 yards.
Needless to day I do not shoot 2" guns from a rest. I only practice self defense with those.

I strive for 6" at 100 yards. ( I don't shoot that range with anything less than 6" )

[guicksylver]

So what are handguns these days?

I've watch some young eyes shoot golf balls at 100 yds weekend after weekend
with Thompson Contenders in 223 with a scope and 12" barrels.

Good reloads aside, at my age I believe it comes down to sighting equipment and eyes.

I've seen 686's and 29's do some amazing things,

I've personally shot bowling pins @100 with a standard 1911.

My belief is that in this day and age a lot of people don't have the patience for true target shooting.

Good thread, I would like to hear more.

+1 on the IDPA Route.

I was State Champion here in Ma ( Old gessa category, I believe it was above 50 yrs old)

[Shiloh]

As a younger man, 2" at 25 yards was doable with with wheel guns. I can't do it on a regular basis anymore. The eyes aren't what they used to be.
With the 1911, 3" is great. Used to be a bit better.

I can see the white gong at 200 yards. Through the peep sights of the '03 Springfield, it disappears. The groups are getting bigger and it isn't the guns.

Shiloh

[prs]

If I can hit a bull in the **** at three paces with a handful of sand, that would be about par for me. If she goes BANG and the target goes CLANG, Life is good. I have several revolvers that will do the 2" at 25 yards from a rest with a good trigger man (prolly not me), but my low on totem pole brand of 1911s and my Glock 23 don't seem to qualify quite that well. My SR1911 CMDR has hardly achieved minute of barn door at 25 yards, it may soon be forgotten. Maybe I exaggerate a little.

PS: Shiloh posted as I was keyboarding, I agree with first hand experience about the eyesight comments. Even the best of open sight pistols will be limited by how well or how poorly one can see.

prs

[Tdart]

I'm kinda funny in this. I shoot my pistols on paper some, but honestly don't ever measure the groups. With my 1911, I can line at at 20 yards and hit the chickens 9/10 times freehand, then I am happy. I don't know what groups the fun will shoot, but the combo of it and me is effective for my tastes.

[JWFilips]

My belief is that in this day and age a lot of people don't have the patience for true target shooting.



You may be right. At the pistol range I shoot at most guys are banging away at bad guy torso targets or just shooting at white 9 inch paper plates and usually as fast as they can pull the trigger. I still like to shoot my targets with the small 1 1/8 inch black bull that I print up on the xerox. Yes it is starting to get harder to see each year that goes by but I still enjoy shooting slower and hopefully better every time I get a chance to go out. That's what I like

[oldpapps]

Way too many options.

When I feel adventurist, I'm happy with any place on a 3X4 foot box at 7 yards.... with my Marlin top break .38 S&W (9MM soft cast lead bullets loaded very weak out of copper cases - not going to strain anything with .355/.356 soft lead down a .360 inch barrel).

Day to day, my pistol targets are 2 liter plastic pop bottles filled with water and caped. The challenge is just to hit them with my .45 ACP. Put out in the woods and brush at ranges up to 100 yards or so. Hard to see some and hitting is a chore. Lots of fun.

Too many years of range qualification requirements. I just don't do it any more.

Enjoy,

OSOK

[Fishman]

Did I have fun? Did my guests?

If yes, then my standard is met.

I spend quite a bit of time shooting cans at ten yards. I like to hit them every time. Bench and paper is for rifles most of the time with me.

I

[tygar]

2" at 25yd is decent accuracy with iron sites. I have numerous revolvers & pistols that can easily do that or better. Problem is, I can't see good enough to do it anymore. As a match shooter, 2" at 50 yds was the standard.

With optics that 2" is 1" or better. Still have my S&W 41 I shot in the 60s with it's 3rd brl that now has a red dot & it will shoot 10 in a dime at 25.

Not sure if we were talking offhand or rest. I am talking rest!

I even have a 2" S&W M15 that will shoot 2" at 25yd or did when I was able to see good enough.

I would say just about any S&W revolver (+ lots of others & pistols) with a 4" or better should easily shoot 2" from a rest with loads it likes.

[dtknowles]

I think too many shooters remember the smallest group a gun shot as its capability.

The only pistol I have ever owned that would shoot under an inch at 50 yards for 9 out of 10, 5 shot groups is my Anschutz Exemplar and my Ruger MKII will do it sometimes. My Dan Wesson's 32-20, .357 Mag and .357 Max are more like 2 inches at 25 yards again for 9 out of 10 groups with carefully prepared ammo. Actually the 32-20 does seem to have the potential to shrink that to an inch and a half.

None of my centerfire semiauto's will more than occasionally shoot groups less than 2 inches at 25 yards.

Tim

[fecmech]

My accuracy standards go back to my Bullseye days. If your gun won't stay inside the 10 ring on a 50 yd target (about 3") you're handicapped before you even start. When I miss the shot I want to know it's me, not the gun or ammo that caused the miss. It is very hard to become a good pistol shot IMO if you are shooting a handgun that shoots 2-2.5" 25 yd groups. If you just want to bang away on a full size silhouette at 10 yds it doesn't matter much. If you want to hit the 10 ring at 50 yds or the turkey silhouette at 150 meters it matters a lot.

[oscarflytyer]

My limiting factors nowadays (just over 50 yo) are my eyes and both my rebuilt shoulders/rotator cuffs! For true mechanical accuracy, a Ransom Rest - and no, I don't have one - I wish! I usually shoot my revolvers - short bbl Rugers and 1911s- at about 8-10 yds now, due to the limiting factors. I expect my groups to cut a ragged hole - 44 SPC/45 Colt/45 ACP. If I don't get that, it is me and me alone...

The one exception I have right now is a very well worn new-to-me S&W Mdl 10 38 Spc police turn-in. I am still trying to determine if the prob is the gun wear or load. Once I can find something that shoots consistently as a baseline, I will tweak my loads. I am a little fearful that it won't group to my norm based on barrel/use wear... Time will tell.

[HATCH]

I am not worthy.

I read about how people aren't happy if they can' shoot a 2 inch or 3 inch group at 25 yards with their pistol.
I don't shoot that much anymore and to be honest I NEVER was able to do a 3 inch group at 75 feet (25 yards)
I practice at 10 yards. Thats it.
I will NEVER be in a shooting that requires me to defend myself at distances greater then 30 feet with my pistol.
At ten yards I can do a 2 inch group with NO problem. Most of the time much less.

In the big picture most people need to be happy with the ability to hit center mass at 25 yards. Basically a grapefruit sized area in the center of a man sized t-shirt type target.
If you can do that then you can survive most situations.

[captaint]

I do like shooting groups at 25 yds. I shot a mod 27-2 with an 8.375 barrel a while back and if I hadn't yanked them off, well, it sure made nice little holes. My eyes just can't do an inch any more. The hands are willing, the eyes aren't. AND plus one on the Dan Wesson 1911's. I wish my club would allow something other than paper targets. We're talking issue sights here. Mike

[paul h]

People use handguns for a variety of uses, so a universal standard of accuracy is meaningless. That said, if you are willing to put in the time to practice with a handgun and you have an accurate handgun with good ammo, then very accurate shooting is possible.

A good revolver or auto with the right ammo will be able to consistently shoot 1" groups at 50 yds. I have done so repeatedly with my 480 SRH with over 1/2 dozen different cast bullets from 310 to 460 gr. And most of those loads were full power, 400's @ 1200 fps, 460's at 1050 fps. Yes, from a bench with a scope to eliminate my shortcomings. With irons offhand I could consistently hit 8” steel plates at 50 yds and I was about 50/50 when putting the plates out at 75 yds. I never considered myself an exceptional shot with a handgun, but have a few shooting buddies who are and who showed me what is possible.

If you hunt small game with a handgun, grapefruit sized groups at 10 paces is totally unacceptable.

Not all handguns nor ammo is capable of good accuracy, but that doesn’t mean it is impossible or highly difficult to achieve. If you really want to improve your handgun skills, get a good 22rf target pistol or air pistol and practice.

[Love Life]

Fist size groups on a Human Echo target at 25 yards slow fire. I need nothing more for that purpose. 100% hits on a human echo target at 25 yds rapid fire.

Bunny sized groups at 25 yds for my loafing pistols.

100% hits on a human echo target as fast as I can pull a pistol and empty the cylinder or magazine at 7 yds because 7 yds isn't far.

That's pretty much it. Oh, and all groups must be achieved from a standing, sitting, or kneeling field position. I have never had a bench with bags magically appear when I was out loafing around the desert or walking through town.

[montana_charlie]

I use a rifle most of the time.
But, (like) when irrigating hay, I will carry my Ruger Mk II if the gophers are thick that year.
I'll use the pistol because it's unhandy to pack the rifle along, and there's no place to lay it down.
On those days, and keeping the range at 25 yards or less, my 'standard' is ... pull the trigger - gopher dies.
Shooting while seated on the four wheeler and resting my elbows on the handlebars sometimes I miss, but not often.

CM

[fcvan]

25 years ago, I was shooting 1250 rounds per week, 500 through a S&W M13 (38 sp loads) 500 though my 1911, and 250 through my 8 3/8" M57. The 1911 was mostly rapid fire and the wheel guns were fired double action.

The M13 was split between shooting rapid fire and slow fire. My typical slow fire regimen was shoot a 45 hole into a paper plate at 7 yards and then try and stuff as many 35 cal boolits though the hole. The M57 was slow fire double action at 100 to 250 yards. After a year of shooting that many rounds there was no problem shooting 3" at 100 with the 41 mag.

All of my shooting was free as I would trade cast boolits for powder and primers. Can I shoot that well now? Heck no, but I'm not shooting 1250 round per week. That and I'm wearing glasses. I tried shooting a friends Super RedHawk with an optic and I haven't gotten the hang of it. I think I will have to keep my handgun shot under 50 yards until I can work in more trigger time.

For the past 10 years, most of my handgun shooting has been with a Glock 22 as that is what I was issued and trained with on our version of SWAT. Shooting combat drills is different than punching paper for score. All of the skills from paper punching translate into combat shooting, I just have to concentrate on the fundamentals with a lot less time between shots.

My standard for today? Rapid fire in a paper plate out to 25 yards, and slow fire rolling a tin can until I can't hit it anymore. My dad (74 last month) still prefers shooting his 4" M57 at spent shotgun hulls, single action, single handed, until he can't see the hull any longer. I've never been able to outshoot my dad.

[Fernando]

I use the 1"/10yd deal - serves my purpose well - I shoot only for fun and the occasional deer.
Besides that fits the way my eyes are now.
My real pain comes in the for of rimfire BR - .1's @ 50 watching the flags - sorry but I'm addicted.

[detox]

Mt revolver pistol standard is less than one inch @ 25 yards without fixed Ransom rest.

[fredj338]

Since many service semis will barely stay under 3", that is good enough. It really comes down to the shooter though. If the best you can do is 4" @ 25yds, then that will suffice. In a good gun, the bullets are never the limiting factor.

[paul h]

The thing is, if the best you can hold is 4" at 25 yds, then the best you can shoot with a 1" gun is closer to 5", if the gun can only shoot 4", you add your wobble and you're groups will be closer to 8".

I've never understood the argument that an accurate gun isn't needed, as an accurate gun is never a detriment and is most often beneficial.

[fecmech]

I've never understood the argument that an accurate gun isn't needed, as an accurate gun is never a detriment and is most often beneficial.
Amen to that, although I would modify "most often" to always!

There is nothing more frustrating than trying to shoot longer range(50 yd +) targets than a gun grouping in the 2-3" range. Even when you do everything right you can and do miss smaller targets. I think that's one of the reasons people don't even try longer ranges because the rewards are so few.

[MarkP]

I think too many shooters remember the smallest group a gun shot as its capability.

The only pistol I have ever owned that would shoot under an inch at 50 yards for 9 out of 10, 5 shot groups is my Anschutz Exemplar and my Ruger MKII will do it sometimes. My Dan Wesson's 32-20, .357 Mag and .357 Max are more like 2 inches at 25 yards again for 9 out of 10 groups with carefully prepared ammo. Actually the 32-20 does seem to have the potential to shrink that to an inch and a half.



None of my centerfire semiauto's will more than occasionally shoot groups less than 2 inches at 25 yards.

Tim

Like the mileage they get with their chipped diesel pickup truck? Best tank is the average.

[1Shirt]

I am pretty much in agreement with Lovelife!
1Shirt!

[paul h]

Amen to that, although I would modify "most often" to always!

There is nothing more frustrating than trying to shoot longer range(50 yd +) targets than a gun grouping in the 2-3" range. Even when you do everything right you can and do miss smaller targets. I think that's one of the reasons people don't even try longer ranges because the rewards are so few.

I find shooting at extended ranges with a handgun is a tremendous amount of fun, when you have the opportunity. But if the gun isn't accurate, then it's pointless. Before I reworked my thread choked 357 blackhawk they only thing it could do consistantly was through it's shots perfectly on the outside of a paper plate at 50 yds.

[atr]

my goal at 25 yds....the inside diameter of a tin pie plate....basically the chest area of an attacker

[Blackwater]

Gee, thanks, guys! Didn't anticipate this large a response. Was just wondering what level of expectations/intentions the country was at these days, and it's really good to see you guys shooting 1" or less at 25. I and a buddy used to compete to see who could outshoot the other in a very friendly, but nevertheless serious manner. He cheated. He had the absolute best vision of anyone I've ever known, and he knew how to use it, too. I've been very lax in keeping up what skills I used to have, and am intent on reviving as much of it as I can these days, as quickly as I can. Sure wish we still had good bullet/powder/primer supplies! Never did have very good timing, I guess. I've become rather possessive of the stash of lead I have, and plan to build a range in the back yard, with thick clay backstop so I can dig what I have out and re-use it.

Thanks to you "accuracy nuts" for providing me with a little extra motivation. Wasn't sure how many of us were left! I DO think a red dot sight may be my best friend soon, though! ;^)

[Bigslug]

With a couple of exceptions, I basically consider a handgun to be a close quarters implement and don't get too hung up on shooting groups with them. At 25 yards 8" addresses most of the issues that a handgun is typically used for, and that would make me happy. If the dedicated bullseye and hunting handguns are coming out, anything under 4" would make me ecstatic. Time for practice, eyesight, and physical condition being the variable things they are, I remind myself not to mistake the silly little things for rifles.

[fecmech]

I DO think a red dot sight may be my best friend soon, though! ;^)
Don't fight it, if you need one, get it. I struggled with presbyopia for a few years because I hated the thought of using a dot sight. My handgun shooting ability suffered and I got frustrated. Finally mounted one on my K-38 about 10 years ago and have them on all my handguns now except the defensive ones. I can shoot as well now as I could with good eyes back in my 30's.

[T-Man]

After serving 20 plus years in Uncle Sams close knit family of Airborne Blanket Heads, I found that any pistol that will go bang when pulled and puts the balls into a man sized target at ranges of up to 100 feet suffices to meet my particular needs. I never pulled a sidearm from the holster while Down Range and fired it at any body. I had a rifle to do that sort of work with. But to answer the question, I do have several 1911's that were built by Ed Brown and a couple of others. An S&W 500, a Desert Eagle tubed in 44 Rem Mag. Followed by the S&W 29's in 4" and 8 3/8". I expect these rather expensive units to hold nothing more than 2.5 inches at 25 yards off a bench. What really pisses me off is the fact that I also own a Hi-Point 45ACP that will out shoot the lot of them every single time. I paid a hunnerd bucks brand new for it, I forget why now, but, after taking the War Club apart, polishing everything from the slide rails to the mirror finish on the feed ramp, replacing the springs with some I picked out the drawers at the local hardware store to add some striking power so the thing would pop the Small Rifle CCI's I have a poopie pile of for loading my 5.56's with. I then cast up a batch of 230 grain Truncated Cones out of a 6 cavity Lee mold and plopping them on top of 6 grains of HP 38. The danged thing will drop 9 round clover leafs off a hand rest. I guess the fixed barrel has something to do with it, I dunno...

[josper]

My eyesight is not what it used to be, so if I can get a 6" group at 20 steps with open sights makes me happy.
Your not alone.

[popper]

For pistol, 5 shots center mass @ 10' rapid fire from either hand without glasses on a moving target. Any cal. For rifle, a little more challenging, moa @ 100, hopefully 200. Scoped & benched of course. A 45 score in sporting clays. Should I last another 10 years I might succeed.
Speaking of glasses, just got back from the eye doc, new script that is supposed to fix the double vison the right eye. Got to wear glasses for driving now, per state eye test. That eye test needs to be counting blackbirds on the power lines, not reading street signs @ 50 & 100. Guess he needs stuff for his kid 5 yrs ago I had no astig or cats, now he says they are worse than before. I did get a 50% reduction in $$ for the second pair - needed when I forget where I put the first pair. If I can remember where the second pair is. Sorry for the rant but turning 71 & now I have to wear glasses, other than readers. Darn.

[44man]

Your not alone.
This is true, I once could see! [smilie=b:
But you under estimate revolvers so I just took a picture of what I have laying around. See the two holes on the chicken leg? That was the last two shots in my box at 200 yards, open sights, Creedmore. Ruger SBH.
The cans were shot with various revolvers at 200 except the Rust-oleum can, shot four times at 100 yards with my SBH and the RD 265 gr, Ultra Dot, hit the rail with one so shot higher for the last shot. This boolit will hold 3/4" at 50.
I never shoot less then 50 yards but that is just a start. I have shot several hundred 5 shot groups at 100 from 1" down to 1/2" with Ruger's and BFR's.
Then the BFR in .500 JRH where I shot five shotgun shells in a row at 50 yards---IN THE BASES, 3/4" targets, only found three in the weeds.
The SRH and the S&W 29 will do 1/2" at 50, so will the Ruger Hunter and not a fluke group, cast or jacketed. 9010890107

[44man]

Had to bring this one back too. SBH, 330 gr boolit I designed and made the mold for. Three shots off hand at 100 yards, Ultra Dot. 3/4" for the three shots.
The truth is I have never made a rifle shoot cast as good as a revolver even with a big scope and still trying.
My revolvers are stock and just a trigger job if needed. 90109

[pkie44]

Good shooting!

[44man]

Good shooting!
I don't consider that. I am no better then any of you. Research my posts about the revolver. The loading bench is where it all starts. Anyone can do it. Don't ever say I shoot better then you do, only say I found what works. I am 76 years old for Christ sakes. I don't want what I have found to be lost and I am so happy when one of you understand. I am not super smart either, just worked like mad.

[44man]

^Shootin Creedmore your wife must be getting handy at sewing patches in your trouser legs.
Never did shoot my pants! I made a blast shield out of cargo belting or thick rubber. Sometimes the gap blast would be felt.
Now I can't see over my belly! Hard as heck to get up too. I now have to deal with old age shakes and the position of my glasses, fun things go away.
Even a short gun like a 1911 can be shot very good from Creedmore and it's better for open sights then a bench is, sights are farther away. For you fellas that can still bend, give it a try, just watch that muzzle.
It is also the best way to sight in for hunting.

[rlb]

This is what I've learned from 44man so far. 50 yds is a good starting place for a revolver.90207

[rlb]

Oh, wait, hunting ranges? 168 yds. 44 mag. Thanks Jim!

90209

[44man]

Oh, wait, hunting ranges? 168 yds. 44 mag. Thanks Jim!

90209
That is just about the best ever. I will never better that, super, super shooting.

[1bluehorse]

I like to be able to keep all six (or more) on an 8 1/2x11" sheet of paper (with a bull centered on said paper) at 50yds offhand....even manage to do it once in a while..[smilie=l: I'm just not very good at shooting at paper targets...I don't quite get the reason but if you take a 4"x4" block of wood and place it next to the target I'd be very surprised if I didn't hit it at least 3 out of six...or a pine cone, or a bee...uh, pop can, well you get the idea...I seem to be better at hitting "things" than I am a target...:takinWiz:

[rlb]

Hey, funny thing, that group on paper was shot with bullets cast from the mold I got from you.^^

Thanks for the good mold 1bluehorse.:drinks:

[white eagle]

I like to get a cylinder of 6 in at 3"@50 yds
even better when I do that at 100 yds

[Animal]

I'm sure all of my guns and all the ammo I load can shoot far better than I can. If I'm not getting good accuracy at the ranges that I'm testing, I usually practice and tweak loads until I can.

If the shoe were on the other foot, the gun would be asking "what type of accuracy do you expect out of your owners before you trade them in for better owners?"