Lube purging?

[Shuz]

Have any of you folks experienced lube purging whilst shooting cast boolits in rifles?
The reason I ask is that I recently golombed onto a nice 5C NOE 30 cal 165g mould that has 3 definite grease grooves and a fourth can appear if one loads up the area right behind the ogive which was prolly meant for crimping. I loaded up this area kinda inadvertently in order to reduce the as cast area ahead of the driving bands to .309. When I looked at the completed boolit, I thought, geez that's a lot of lube, I wonder if it is too much, and that it will cause lube purging.

One of the cavities is plain base, and the other 4 are GC; so I sized a bunch of boolits without any lube and then heat treated them to Bhn 22+. I will experiment now with adjusting the lubrisizer so that only the bottom 2 grooves or so will get lube and see if there is any difference between those, and those filled all the way up.

Another reason for the inquiry is that the rifles I plan to use this boolit in are lever action .30-30's, and lube purging may be a "little" difficult to determine with such fine bench rest guns!(hee hee)

[youngda9]

For the uninformed (me), can someone explain what lube purging is. I never thought too much lube could be a problem.

[felix]

Too much lube is NOT the problem. The composition of the lube for the application IS the problem. It boils down to the the final balance of the boolit as ejected from the muzzle of the gun. ... felix

Purging is the excess lube build-up in the barrel and that build up gets ejected ALL at once behind the boolit in error! ... felix

[dondiego]

Is this a dangerous condition if the lube purges all at once? Never experienced it.........that I am aware of.

[runfiverun]

it creates flyers of the highest magnitude.
if the oil left behind is, well... petroleum based, you can/could have a dieseling affect on the front half of the boolit.

2 grooves full of lube is enough, often more than enough depending on the viscosity of the lube in use.

[prs]

No! Lube purging is what my grand daughter did after earing a stick of my Felix Lube. ;-)

prs

[Maven]

Tom Grey of the Cast Bullet Association theorized that some [cast bullet] flyers could be attributed to "lube purging," hence "lube purging flyers." He wrote several articles about the phenomenon in "The Fouling Shot." although Tom's explanation is plausible, I'm not completely convinced of its validity. Lube composition, bore condition, powder choice, velocity, bullet design, bullet fit, etc. seem to me to be more relevant factors.

[dondiego]

I shot with Tom the other day at our club. Knowledgeable fellow.

[felix]

Yes, Maven, all those factors do change the lube composition remaining in the barrel. It's too bad we cannot come up with a lube immune to such phenomenon. ... felix

[runfiverun]

we been trying like heck though....
even found something that would hold powder fouling in suspension [for part of the barrel siiigh]

[felix]

Keep at it! Sooner or later..... ... felix

[Oreo]

Enter powder coat.

[btroj]

Powder coat may, or may not, be the answer. Way too soon to tell.

Felix, the quest goes on. I need to get some better weather for testing. Cold, windy, and freezing rain today. No way I shoot in that.

[felix]

Powder coat is just an application method and is a good one. What is needed is a very thinly applied polymer that will hold up as a carrier for a high density cellulose lube, either natural or emulated, and small enough to spray thinly and not rip off within a barrel. That's a very tall order, but that is needed. The carrier and pay load together must be "burnable" within the barrel to the extent that barrel coating will be entirely a thing of the past. Ideally, pressure shouldn't have to exceed 7-10K cup/psi for "lube activation and expulsion". ... felix

[runfiverun]

man you ain't asking a lot there.:lol:
I was really hoping for something similar to the old ny-clad coating.
something that could be applied wet without undue stress to the boolits and air dried.

I tried to apply a polymer coating [and was successful] but haven't tried them yet.
it's so thin it's almost undetectable.

[waksupi]

I'm waiting for someone to run several thousand rounds through a rifle at full speed and good accuracy, and examine the bore with a scope to determine if the powder coating is detrimental to the bore before jumping on to that band wagon.

[Shuz]

Geez, looks like I opened a "can of worms". I guess I'll just have to experiment with the number of grooves filled in my "bench rest" 336 Marlins and see what happens. Be on the lookout for fresh, unused, lube grooves for sale! With the number of grooves in this design, I could be a wholesaler source for you Ric!

[felix]

Yeah, Ric, you can expect to detect chemically some kind of "rust" from dirty plasma effects. Not very probable, though. Even then, which ions are to blame and from what source? The polymer, the cleaning fluid, powder, primer, or just from the atmospheric air from the high heat of shooting or that famous Montana lightning? Besides, whose ownership lifetime are you worried about? ... felix

[myg30]

man you ain't asking a lot there.:lol:
I was really hoping for something similar to the old ny-clad coating.
something that could be applied wet without undue stress to the boolits and air dried.

I tried to apply a polymer coating [and was successful] but haven't tried them yet.
it's so thin it's almost undetectable.

Why did they discontinue the Ny-clad ? And what was the true purpose of it ? There was so much hype about them shooting through kevlar vests etc..
Dont mean to hi jack, but you got my tail wagging.
Mike
Mike

[williamwaco]

This sounds like an urban legend to me.

Theory and explanation aside, who has actually seen it with your own eyes?

[runfiverun]

ny-clad = cop killer plain and simple... they were just taking something off the marked from fear and hype.

William lube purge is a real phenomenon, I have witnessed it myself throughout much of my lube tests.
one in particular was a high grease low wax lube we had been working over for quite some time.
when I took it to Nevada [and the temps soared] the groups not only opened but would throw boolits out of the "group" pretty regularly.
as soon as I patched the barrel and went to my "high temp" lube the groups come back and stayed as normal throughout a whole shot string.
I was wishing I had packed the chrono along so I could "see" or predict the event somehow.

hot weather lube purging is simply the excess release of oils in the barrel from the lube, I dunno about the residue building up and being purged past a certain point but we see a similar affect in the cold where the old lube affects the new boolits passing.

[williamwaco]

Runfiverun.

Thanks. I never even heard of it until I saw this post.

Of course I don't experiment with lubes. I just use 50/50 and lately LLA and the temperature only gets to around 105 degrees around here. Well it gets hotter, but I don't go to the range on those days.

[btroj]

William, I can send you lubes that will go goofy in 100 degree weather.

[geargnasher]

Felix pretty much covered it in the first post, all we can do is offer multiple confirmations that lube purging is a buggar, is related to temperature and viscosity, and is very easy to fix for about a 40-degree temperature window (you choose the window).

I'll also add that 45 2.1 and I both have bone-stock leverguns that will shoot sub-half-inch groups at a hunnert, at near jacketed velocities, so don't let anyone tell you the platform can't shoot great groups. Lube had a LOT to do with getting mine to work right, had to find one that stopped the flyers and stringing to get that last little bit.

Keep with the thought that a good lube can't really add to accuracy potential, but rather must be made so that it doesn't detract from the accuracy potential you build into the ammunition at the loading bench. Sometimes it's difficult to tell which is which, at which time a little lube experimentation/manipulation is indicated.

Gear

[bhn22]

Why did they discontinue the Ny-clad ? And what was the true purpose of it ? There was so much hype about them shooting through kevlar vests etc..
Dont mean to hi jack, but you got my tail wagging.
Mike
Mike
I promise you, a swaged lead bullet, encapsulated in nylon is not armor piercing. That's all a Nyclad is.

From Federals catalog: Federal Premium handgun loads are the best around. Proven NyClad® bullets feature a lead core hollow-point with Nylon coating. Offers great stopping power and penetration--ideal qualities for a personal defense round.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled show....:grin:

[Grump]

Ny-Clad was Nylon coated.

KTW was Teflon-coated.

I've seen both, fired neither.

KTW *also* had a harder metal composition and was in fact designed for penetration. I think I recall the advertising hype being centered on the problems of felons behind barricades and the utility of disabling fleeing felons' motor vehicles.

Only later was it discovered that KTW could more easily defeat the newfangled Kevlar body armor. But I think that 9mm hardball and .22 WMR could also zip through Threat Level II stuff, which is why II-A was developed.

From a pragmatic standpoint, Nyclad was discontinued because it didn't sell. IIRC, it was supposed to give "FBI Load" performance from .38 Specials and .357 Mags with the clean-up ease of jacketed ammo and a price less than jacketed.

The question remains for me though--how was Nyclad for long-term accuracy and fouling residues, if any? Remember, those plastic wads in shotguns are known to leave some presents behind....