Brass .30-06 cases turned copper in tumbler

[rattletrap1970]

Hello all,

Last night I put a batch of mixed .30-06 cases in my wet tumbler (Lake City, And 2 batches of commercial).

The cleaning solution was one capful of Citranox, a dash of lemi-shine and 1 drop of Dawn.

Normally I let 'em roll for about 2 hours or so, but I went out and they rolled all night.

The water was black and this is how the shells came out.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rattletrap1970/IMG_20131120_165733_127_zps048bd8a6.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/rattletrap1970/media/IMG_20131120_165733_127_zps048bd8a6.jpg.html)

Now I've heard that this is surface removal of zinc that causes this.. Anyone ever see this? I've forgotten batches of pistol brass and even some .223 once and I never saw anything like this, and I always use the same cleaning mix. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this one (other than "well don't do that" LOL).

[w5pv]

I would wash them in citric acid and then put them back in the tumbler with just the polishing media.I have had some to turn but not to that extreme.

[bhn22]

It kind of reminds me of the 45 brass I once bought that a guy had soaked in vinegar to clean. They had turned pink too. After a few firings, sizings and tumbling, they returned to a normal color.

[rattletrap1970]

I think they look neat. I have heard that is wears off in sizing and subsequent "non-multi day" tumbling. Interesting though.. Who ever thunk in High School that chemistry would be so neat.

[220swiftfn]

Don't know if this is what caused it (I'm not set up for wet tumbling yet, but I'm doing my "homework" on it) but I believe that most folks are using 2 tablespoons of Dawn, not one drop......


It DOES make it easier to tell your brass apart from others, tho.....


Dan

[220swiftfn]

Oh, and the easiest way to see if you leached out the zinc and should scrap the brass (now copper cases) is to squeeze test one of them at the neck. Brass will spring back, copper will permanently deform....


Dan

[Jumbopanda]

Oh, and the easiest way to see if you leached out the zinc and should scrap the brass (now copper cases) is to squeeze test one of them at the neck. Brass will spring back, copper will permanently deform....


Dan

I'm pretty sure this isn't possible.

[rattletrap1970]

Yeah, it's a local effect.. Only the surfaces and only the thickness of the zinc at the surface. If you scrub em a bit with steel wool they're brass colored again.

[AlaskanGuy]

I had the same thing happen with badly tarnished brass... I believe that its the citric acid that does it..... You just got an overdose....

[rattletrap1970]

Yeah, i think it was a "Time" thing. It's the same cleaning mix I always use.Just the time was much longer cause I forgot the cases in the solution overnight. The timing was as such, Tumbled for 12 hours. Shut tumbler off but didn't have a chance to get brass out till after work. So the brass sat in solution (unmoving now) for about 9 hours. Got home and rinsed thoroughly.

[Dutchninja]

I have seen that as well. I just had a batch of corroded and really dirty .45 acp that turned a similar color after I let them run all night. I might have gotten heavy on the lemon shine as well. I also forgot to dry them out so between the water spots and the copper color they look like they have been color case hardened. I've also had some turn more copper colored after a loaded round made it in the mix. The pins started to pull off a bit of the the copper jacket and turned things a little darker shade.

[earthling121757]

I've had this happen on several batches. I've also had a couple batches come out a chocolate brown or a really neat orange. I've never been able to really reproduce the effect on demand though (on some brass I was using for swagging bullets)

A couple things that might affect it are like Dutchninja said, having some fairly corroded brass in the batch (visible green patches), having the water get hot on a summer day, running a batch a looong time, and maybe too much Lemishine.

Also, like others have mentioned, the brass color returns after a couple uses and reruns in the tumbler. Just rerunning them right away doesn't seem to help, but if you leave them a few days and run them again they'll get brassier.

I've tried adding copper carbonate, using hot water, using lots of Lemishine, letting brass run 48 hours, etc. but results were still variable.

[BeeMan]

Hadn't heard of Citranox so I looked it up. It seem as though it was purpose built for our type of cleaning job, with a mix of organic acids and surfactants. Have you tried it without the Dawn and Lemi-shine?

As several have noted, long soaks that result in surface loss of zinc should not normally be a problem. The only caution is if a piece of brass has localized corrosion that it may create a pit in the corroded area. The weak spot would be there in any case but since the brass is a uniform darker tint it may be a bit tougher to spot the weakened case.

Copper and brass both get harder by working and soften only by annealing at elevated temperature.

[MtGun44]

Removing zinc from the surface alloy - too acidic, I would guess. Unless your brass is
BROWN tarnished, there is no benefit and can be harm from this unnecessary chemical
cleaning.

Brown - OLD tarnish can be reverted to metal with citric acid, a good thing. Cleaning
yellow looking brass with citric acid is pointless to potentially slightly harmful.

Bill

[rattletrap1970]

Yeah, I throw a drop of dawn in just as a grease cutter (probably doesn't do squat after the citranox). The lemi shine probably isn't necessary to, just a habit (cause my original cleaning solution was Dawn and Lemi shine alone).

The Citranox is a purpose built cleaner for what we do. I got a bunch of throw away containers from work and poured them all together and ended up with about 1/2 gallon. I only use about 3/4 of the cap of the container full of the Citranox and it works great. The Citranox is pricey, but, it's super concentrated and out of all the concoctions ive seen posted, nothing cleans as quickly or as well.

[fredj338]

Too much citric acid, the Lemi & the other, & too much time. Citric acid takes about 15m in a high concentartion, then the brass is done.

[Cadillo]

You must periodically clean your SS media. Tumble the media alone in some dishwashing liquid, lemishine and clear water for about 20 minutes. Give it a good rinse and then load up and clean the brass. I've been using SS for a few years now, and this happens to me when the media gets loaded up with gunk, lemishine, soap, etc. I think that residue from the black liner in my drum also contributes to the problem.

A good drum and media cleaning should get you back in the game again.

I forgot to mention. Give your brass a final rinse in a bucket containing about a gallon or so of water and a little lemishine. It makes a difference in the final results.

[CastingFool]

those cartridges look cool! I seem to recall a thread on another forum about coloring your brass, but I cannot recall which forum.

[357maximum]

If you put them in a dry vibratory polisher with some walnut medis it will go away in a few hours....had it happen myself when I forget they were tumbling for a bit too long.

[snuffy]

I had brass turn colors in an ultrasonic cleaner. It was charged with Hornady brass cleaning solution. This was tarnished New-unfired .223 LC seconds that I bought right once. I simply wanted it cleaned up.

I put an old shoehorn in the US cleaner between batches of .223, to clean some rust off it. Forgot it was in there, put another batch of brass in. This is what happened;

88269

88268

88267

The copper color was only skin deep. It could easily be removed with some steel wool. I put my concerns on another website, someone said what had happened was a galvanic reaction. No current has to applied, all you need is dissimilar metals, acid bath and heat. The shoe horn was chrome plated with some of the chrome gone, which left the base copper plate for the anode. I'll bet that's what happened to your '06 cases.

[220swiftfn]

I'm pretty sure this isn't possible.

Brass can be converted back to copper by chemical leaching (HIGHLY doubtful that there was enough time involved) or by physically burning the zinc out (such as over-annealing with a torch, that bluish green flame??? Burning zinc.)


Dan

[rattletrap1970]

Bluish green flame is from copper

[jonp]

I had the same thing happen with badly tarnished brass... I believe that its the citric acid that does it..... You just got an overdose....
Citric acid will do that. My guess is it was the lemishine. I think they are cool. Twist one in a piece of 0000 sreel wool and that color should come right off. Its just surface from the zinc. I've read a bunch about this and most seem to agree that you can't leach out enough zinc this way to seriously weakin the brass.
I have had some pistol brass do this and have not noticed a decrease in case life but the pressures are lower than rifle so idk.
I got some old 45colt brass, badly tarnished and green, from a member here a while ago. Looked like they had beed on the range for over a year. I soaked them in citric and dawn a few times and they cleaned right up like new but some colored up. I have been using them for some time now and some with a pretty stout load of H110 and 2400 and have not noticed anything out of the ordinary
I would not worry too much but probably just segregate them out and make sure to use them in light target loads. I would not throw them out.

[HeadLead]

I just had 100 223 cases come out this way. 2 batches of 50 each. I found 1 steel case in each batch after tumbling g. The steel case was very noticeable after the tumbling process. Can't say for certain this was the cause, but I have a 3rd batch churning with no steel cases so I will see what the final outcome is.

I do think the cases look cool! With bullets loaded they will be a topic for discussion at the range.

[John Allen]

I have had that happen when tumbling blackpowder cases. Was it corrosive ammo?

[Shiloh]

Oh, and the easiest way to see if you leached out the zinc and should scrap the brass (now copper cases) is to squeeze test one of them at the neck. Brass will spring back, copper will permanently deform....

Dan

Annealed brass will bend in. When I anneal, I go only until I get a gold/straw colored area where I am heating and stop. The test is if the metal bends in under a reasonable amount of force. Go to any degree of red and you've gone to far.

Shiloh

[flint45]

They look fine just a little different color is all shoot them as is they will come back to normal in no time spend your time loading and shooting them.:Fire:

[45-70 Chevroner]

If nothing else, they sure are pretty.:D

[mold maker]

The only time I've had anything close to that color, I found a steal case that got missed. As soon as the air hit them, they darkened and looked less than expected.
I ran the SS pins in Dawn for about 30 min and reran the brass for an hr. The results was exactly what I had come to expect with SS pins, a drop of Dawn, and a teaspoon of citric acid, in really hot water.
The water temp has a lot to do with the time needed for best results.