My reject rate way to high! why

[gregg]

Been fighting this for a few years but getting good bullet this last deer season put me over the top. I got down to useing a bag of mag shot. I was useing WW up to that time. Now I went as far as useing 4 oz of tin in 10 lbs now going to try 8 Oz tin to 10 lbs of mag shot. Have a idea from Harry-O of putting my mold on the lead pot to wait for the sprue to harden? Been hard to keep the mold hot enough waiting for the sprue to harden. Lee 10 lb pot turned on hottest settting BTW. . Is it the WW is it I have not cleaned the pot enough when switching to the mag shot. Am I just gettting to old to cast at 54. Pulling what hair i got left out in SD

[Billwnr]

First thing, check your temperature as your alloy may be too cool. If it's in the 700+ range then your problem is something else. Do you oil your mould for storage?

[454PB]

The most frequent cause is temperature too low or an oil contaminated mould as Billwnr has said. The first thing I'd suggest is to clean the mould with brake cleaner or Gunscrubber. My Lee pots cast best with the thermostat set between 7 and 7.5 using WW alloy. That translates to around 725 to 750 degrees. It's possible your thermostat needs adjustment, there have been a few reports of Lee pots needing some tweaking of the thermostat. Zinc contaminated WW alloy is another possibility, how old are your wheelweights? Zinc seems to be showing up more frequently in the last few years. Do you flux the melt, and what do you use?

If you could post a picture of your defective boolits, it would make it easier to analyse.

[Billwnr]

My first thought was the thermostat was not doing it's job.

[gregg]

I bought one of the HF temp meters you all had talked about here. Think its running over 700 deg.
I should check again
Wheel weights are fairly new. I also was starting to blame them darn 6 cav lee group buys but the same thing going on with Lyman single cav molds I should get pictures your right. Its just not filling out in sharp corners just here and there. Do you all think more tin? Like I have said been casting for 34 years. Use to just use just WW alone. Have went thru many 5 gal bullets full in my life.
Oh ya flux Yup . Bullet lube . Felix lube.

[Buckshot]

...........All you should need is about 2% tin. Rounded edges sound like too low a temp for the alloy. Assuming the blocks are clean there shouldnt be an issue otherwise.

Bring your alloy up to temp, say 750 degrees. Set the blocks into the alloy, Since you said you had a 10lb pot, they'll be angled in kind of steep. Lift them out every now and then. When the lead no longer sticks to them our you pull up a bunch of half solidified lead, you are good to go.

Pour a boolit, and be prepared to wait some little bit till the spruepuddle sets up then drop the boolit and refill. Your dropped slug should be fully filled out, sharply and cleanly. Maintain a comfortable casting cadence and the blocks will cool off some so the sprue doesn't take so long to solidify.

If the boolits begin to show rounded features again, step up your casting speed or move the temp up another notch. Also, inspect the mating surfaces of the blocks. Make sure the vent lines are clean and complete. You can also put a tiny bevel on one block edge on the mating side (top-inside edge).

If the blocks are clean, and the alloy and blocks are in the correct temp range, there is no reason you should NOT get good boolits with each drop. You might also try having the lead stream his the edge of the chamfer for the sprue hole so it kind of swirls into the cavity.

..............Buckshot

[gregg]

...........All you should need is about 2% tin. Rounded edges sound like too low a temp for the alloy. Assuming the blocks are clean there shouldnt be an issue otherwise.



Blocks are clean



Bring your alloy up to temp, say 750 degrees. Set the blocks into the alloy, Since you said you had a 10lb pot, they'll be angled in kind of steep. Lift them out every now and then. When the lead no longer sticks to them our you pull up a bunch of half solidified lead, you are good to go.

Yup that how i do it. Speeds thing up preheating the mold

I'm going to recheck alloy temp?



Pour a boolit, and be prepared to wait some little bit till the spruepuddle sets up then drop the boolit and refill. Your dropped slug should be fully filled out, sharply and cleanly. Maintain a comfortable casting cadence and the blocks will cool off some so the sprue doesn't take so long to solidify.



Here I think could be the rub! I just read tonight about O-Harry resting his molds on the lead pot to wait for the sprue puddle to set up. It seems like it takes so long to harden the sprue?
But as we all know it we cut it to soon it pulls alloy right out of the base of the bullet. This seems to slow me down and makes it hard to keep the mold temp up. I have even tried to use a lead
ingot and or flat iron as a heat sink on the sprue.


If the boolits begin to show rounded features again, step up your casting speed or move the temp up another notch. Also, inspect the mating surfaces of the blocks. Make sure the vent lines are clean and complete. You can also put a tiny bevel on one block edge on the mating side (top-inside edge).

If the blocks are clean, and the alloy and blocks are in the correct temp range, there is no reason you should NOT get good boolits with each drop. You might also try having the lead stream his the edge of the chamfer for the sprue hole so it kind of swirls into the cavity.

..............Buckshot

Thank you all for the replys. Seems so simple ;-( so helps to review thur you guys .

[testhop]

...........All you should need is about 2% tin. Rounded edges sound like too low a temp for the alloy. Assuming the blocks are clean there shouldnt be an issue otherwise.

Bring your alloy up to temp, say 750 degrees. Set the blocks into the alloy, Since you said you had a 10lb pot, they'll be angled in kind of steep. Lift them out every now and then. When the lead no longer sticks to them our you pull up a bunch of half solidified lead, you are good to go.

Pour a boolit, and be prepared to wait some little bit till the spruepuddle sets up then drop the boolit and refill. Your dropped slug should be fully filled out, sharply and cleanly. Maintain a comfortable casting cadence and the blocks will cool off some so the sprue doesn't take so long to solidify.

If the boolits begin to show rounded features again, step up your casting speed or move the temp up another notch. Also, inspect the mating surfaces of the blocks. Make sure the vent lines are clean and complete. You can also put a tiny bevel on one block edge on the mating side (top-inside edge).

If the blocks are clean, and the alloy and blocks are in the correct temp range, there is no reason you should NOT get good boolits with each drop. You might also try having the lead stream his the edge of the chamfer for the sprue hole so it kind of swirls into the cavity.

..............Buckshot

buckshot tell me if this is wrong
the way i heat up a mould is use a bigger dipper and keep on pouring even when the mould is full till the sprue is malted:castmine: down to normal
is yhis right or wrong and will it harm the moulds

tom:castmine::coffee:

[Misfire99]

I would like to ask why you reject you bullets. Are they not filling the mold? Do they have voids at the base. Do they have lines running over them? What is the reason you reject your bullets?

You said you use a Lee pot but is it a bottom pour or are you using a ladle?

It might be as simple as your temp isn't high enough even though you have your pot set as high as it will go. Can you borrow a thermometer or another pot to test it out?

I think you have enough tin in it already. Adding more will just raise the cost and not solve the problem.

[Buckshot]

buckshot tell me if this is wrong
the way i heat up a mould is use a bigger dipper and keep on pouring even when the mould is full till the sprue is malted:castmine: down to normal
is yhis right or wrong and will it harm the moulds

tom:castmine::coffee:

..............If the alloy isn't hot enough no amount of pouring into the cavity or pouring and maintaining a huge sprue puddle will make any difference.

If your alloy is ultra hot it can fill a cold mould cavity and give a good boolit. The heat just cannot escape fast enough into the blocks. But we don't cast at temps that high. The alloy temp has to be hot enough to remain fluid long enough to fill the small detail areas. The blocks have to be cool enough to absorb the heat and begin radiating it so that the sprue doesn't remain liquid for too long a time.

I have a photo of 3 boolits (Lee 358-158RF). They were all cast with the pot set as high as it would go, which was right at 900 degrees. I was using a Lee 6 cavity mould. I cast 3 ways with this very hot alloy.

1) Filled after the mould was to temp required a substantail (comparatively) time for the sprues to set up enough to be struck and the boolits dumped. The boolits had a surface that looked like electro-galvanizing which is the best way I know to describe it.

2) Next was to have a small folded bit of towel (I used a shop rag) in a saucer of water. The mould was filled, and as the sprues began to solidify the mould was inverted and the sprueplate was laid on the damp rag for maybe a second and a half, then struck over and the boolits dumped. The appearance of these slugs was an even dull frosting all over. They were also VERY well formed.

3) As in #2 above, but after dumping the base of the mould blocks were dragged across the damp towel, and then refilled. The sprueplate DID NOT get laid on the towel. But was ready to be struck over in the time it took to turn from filling at the furnace to being over the sprue box. When dumped these boolits looked like they'd been cast of mercury. They were mirror bright. For the most part they were well filled out. But they did have more culls then the other 2 ways.

The above shows that mould temp has a very definet effect on how a particular alloy will cast. The alloy temp remained the same (sufficiently for our non-labratory test) only the mould temp was altered. Test #3 with the coolest blocks gave very nice boolits, but there were more culls. All the slugs tossed were due to minor detail items. Maybe 1/4 of the circumfrence of a drive band was rounded, or the edge of the crimp groove.

No major features were affected. This is a BB design and none were rejected due to issues with the base. Large amounts of lead flow to an area maintained a good fill.

A good alloy free of any contaminants like copper, alluminum, iron and zinc (the worst) will cast superb boolits with from 1/2 to 2% tin. Any contaminants will alter how an alloy has to be cast. Adding tin just won't remedy the situtation as it has more to do with how the allow flows and it's fluidity. This is how well it flows into sharp corners and other detail features.

All the difficulties normally associated with poor fillout stem from a contaminated cavity, too cool and alloy, too cool blocks, insufficient venting, or a contaminated alloy.

The best way to find out what you need to do if there is a problem, is to start with clean cavities and begin casting with alloy as hot as your lead pot will provide, and blocks of similar temp. A thermometer is a big help. If you don't get good slugs then, your cavities are contaminated still, or your alloy is in question.

................Buckshot

[Bret4207]

There are a couple other tricks. Get the alloy HOT. Get the mould CLEAN and HOT. Those are the 2 biggies. Some moulds like contact with the dipper or spout, others needs a "pressure pour" with the lead falling into the sprue hole from a distance. That seems to force the alloy into the cavity and provide a good fill out. A big sprue puddle is almost always a good thing IME. Frosted boolits may not look as sexy as shiney ones, but they do tend to be filled out better.

[Bass Ackward]

I'd say the problem has to be common since it affects all his molds.

Thermostat has already been identified. Contaminated mix is another.

What has not been mentioned is the rate of flow into the mold. This is controlled from the spout and the regulator. If the flow rate is is too low (slow), then the spout is cooling the mix too much and the pot temperature has very little effect. All the tin in the world won't correct it.

My high level cut off is 750 degrees with 2% tin. If I can't mold perfect bullets with near zero rejects, then I need to investigate why. The two biggest causes are that I need to improve the venting of my mold which is a one time fix or adjust flow rate. My 20 lb RCBS needs to have the flow rate adjusted about three times per pot as the quantity of lead gets lower.

When I forget to monitor this, my reject rate goes up. If I do follow it, my reject rate is virtually zero.

I have only one mold, which is a single cavity LBT, that simply requires 800 (high side 825) degrees because the 230 grain slug isn't enough heat to keep the big blocks warm. But that's it, everything else works flawlessly at 750 degrees which puts the high side on my thermostat at about 775 degrees for that temp.

[Calamity Jake]

All good info above, one thing that has not been brought up is smoking the cavities, most all
alum. molds need to be smoked to cast a good boolet and some iron molds too, I have a lyman 311041 that will not cast a good boolet if it is not smoked.

[44man]

This is a hard question for me to answer because I get zero rejects from the first to the last boolit, whether 100 or 500.
Only 4 reasons for a bad boolit; contaminated mold, contaminated lead, wrong temperature and a partially plugged ladle or bottom pour spout.
Everyone has given right answers but it still boils down to these reasons.
Keep adding tin and you keep wasting money! [smilie=1:

[gregg]

I would like to ask why you reject you bullets. Are they not filling the mold? Do they have voids at the base. Do they have lines running over them? What is the reason you reject your bullets?

You said you use a Lee pot but is it a bottom pour or are you using a ladle?

It might be as simple as your temp isn't high enough even though you have your pot set as high as it will go. Can you borrow a thermometer or another pot to test it out?

I think you have enough tin in it already. Adding more will just raise the cost and not solve the problem.
================================================== ===================

Bottom pour pot. I do like bullshop says and run the lead little off center to the hope of letting
more air out of the cav. It seems to help.

I have a HF dig temp meter. Its going to be couple weeks but going to check temp again. I'm thinking 700 something is as high as the pot goes on high heat? I'm going to try pictures saturday and try to post them.
Bull shop do you fear the damp towel on the sprue plate will warp it?

[jeff223]

when i had poor boolit fill out and alot of rejects all i did was make sure all the mold vent lines were open.i took a scribe and ran it down every one of them.doing this it made them alittle deeper so the mold could vent.the last time i cast some boolits i poured about 500 and i had a hard time finding a reject and i was just using straight wheel weight lead with no tin added.get yourself a magnafine glass to see the vent lines better.with the magnafine glass you will be able to see small burrs on each hole too.make sure you remove those burrs,that will help with boolit drop out and with the small burrs removed the mold can vent .if a burr is blocking a vent line the mold will not vent like it should.

it sure is nice getting A NUMBER ONE boolits from Lee six banger molds now with no tin

[Buckshot]

.............The consensus of answers to the issue of pour quality booits is pretty well revolving around your alloy and as a consequence, mould tempurature. Having to do with this, and not mentioned until Calamity Jake mentioned:

"...................one thing that has not been brought up is smoking the cavities, most all alum. molds need to be smoked to cast a good boolet and some iron molds too, I have a lyman 311041 that will not cast a good boolet if it is not smoked. "

Smoking the cavities slows the heat transfer into the blocks.

I think we've all have answered from the point of conceeding your cavities are clean.

Bass Ackward and 44man:Have both brought up flow:

" What has not been mentioned is the rate of flow into the mold. This is controlled from the spout and the regulator. "

"Only 4 reasons for a bad boolit; contaminated mold, contaminated lead, wrong temperature and a partially plugged ladle or bottom pour spout."

1) Contaminated cavities
2) Contaminated alloy
3) Improper alloy heat, too low (and therefore mould blocks)
4) Poor venting
5) Poor alloy flow (volumn)
6) Alloy delivery to cavity
7) Insufficient sprue puddle

Back to tempurature, Gregg says: " I have a HF dig temp meter. Its going to be couple weeks but going to check temp again. I'm thinking 700 something is as high as the pot goes on high heat?"

It's been so long since I've had my 10lb Lee I don't recall how high it will go. In fact I might not even have had a thermometer then. My Lee 20lb pot when full will maintain a temp of 775-800 degrees. When half full it will run up into the high 900's.

Accepting a couple things, I'm leaning toward insifficient heat as it can look like several other problems. Yet improper flow can also do the same. With a suitable container under the nozzle, lift the delivery handle and while alloy is flowing insert a suitably bent paperclip into the nozzle from below. Work in a circular pattern and up and down. See if it makes a difference to what you're used to seeing.

I don't recall how the 10 lb pot valve is setup, but the 20lb pot's valve sits in a well. Since I pour a lot of 58 cal Minie' boolits, a good alloy stream is very important. Due to that boolit's hollowbase, you have a relatively thin area of the skirts. Heat is withdrawn not only outward into the blocks but also inward into the core pin. A poor delivery won't be able to supply enough hot lead fast enough to reliably cast good skirts.

I ended up drilling out the hole in the spout. At first I was afraid I'd gone a bit too far in opening the hole, but that didn't last long and the first impression was because I just wasn't used to the new volumn. I think the original hole is fine for most boolit's, I think my modification has helped produce more good Minie' boolits.

.................Buckshot

[gregg]

As we all know every mold a law of its own. I have found some molds will not seem to keep up with a fast flow. Its like the venting will not keep up to the flow. Seems like some will take a direct
flow well and some you have to use the bullshop of

"lead stream hit the edge of the chamfer for the sprue hole so it kind of swirls into the cavity."

AND I think lets the base vent better.

Thinking I need more heat. So many good tips here. I have own 3 lee 10lb lead pots First one Mom and Dad gave me to get me off there cooking stove. That one started leaking so Wife gave me a new one. Found the fix is running a screw thru top rim to hold the pot liner up so the valve can seal the opening. So now GF gave me a new pot last Xmas. Both these ladys love casting.
Not before I go I have had trouble with both of these pots. So its not a new problem. I cannot remember wich one I have done the temp test on? Yes I have tried smoking the cavs. No help for me. Have taken a 5/8 bolt . what ever fits a 4.5 grinder cup wire brush and cut the head off of the bolt and turned it down to fit a 1/2 drill and used it to clean the pot liner out of all the crud that builds up there.

[montana_charlie]

I have not figured out what is the correct answer to Greggs question, but almost everybody else has mentioned increasing temperature.

In his opening post, he said...

Have a idea from Harry-O of putting my mold on the lead pot to wait for the sprue to harden? Been hard to keep the mold hot enough waiting for the sprue to harden. Lee 10 lb pot turned on hottest settting BTW. .

If 'waiting for the sprue to harden' takes up as much time as his words indicate, does anybody really believe he is running too cold?
CM

[454PB]

Yes, it seems he has a strange problem. The melt does not get hot enough, yet he has to wait too long for the sprue to harden????

As to Buckshots post on 10 pounder versus 20 pounder Lee pots: I have both AND an RCBS lead thermometer. Both size pots attain the same temperatures, and the thermostat settings even match on both units. Yesterday I was smelting a small batch of dental X-ray backers in one of my Lee 10 pounders. I stuffed it full and went about another project. I checked it about 15 minutes latter and in the subdued lighting, the bottom 1/3 of the pot liner was glowing red.

Re-reading this and all the responses, it's beginning to look like a flow restriction problem, easily cleared as Buckshot mentioned.

Since gregg doesn't own a lead thermometer, the next process of elimination would be to try dipper casting with the same bottom draw pot. That will tell you if it's an alloy or temperature problem rather than flow.

[montana_charlie]

Yes, it seems he has a strange problem.
He was using W/W in the past, and apparently got some usable bullets.
Now, he is using 'mag shot' (whatever that is) mixed with tin...at a ratio of 40:1.

Since he is "down to" using mag shot, I guess he has run out of any other metal.

I know shot is often added to an alloy to increase hardness, but is it suitable as the 'main ingredient'?
CM

[Char-Gar]

The boys have about covered all the possibilities. The only issue I find missing is the possibility the spru plate hole is too small. The older SAECO molds were bad about this. I have had to drill the holes out to a larger size to get good well filled bullets. Drove me nuts for several years until I just did it. No problems since with those couple of molds. With the larger holes, the lead got in their fast and plenty. The air got pushed out and the blocks held the tempreture better.

Pay particular attention to the notion of cooling the spru on a wet rag which was popularized on this site by Bruce B. It will speed up your casting a bunch and help keep the mold at the right tempreture.

If you don't have a good drill press, you really should have one. They are almost essencial around a gun/reloading shop. The 17 inch Jet floor model sells for around $400.00 and is a very fine machine and all you will ever need for gun work.

[leftiye]

No way you're not hot enough. If the sprue stays molten for 20 seconds you should be (or almost be) frosting boolits badly. Contaminated lead, BADLY restricted pour spout (at that temp a slow pour should still work fine), or some of Lee's wonder crap coating still in the mould. This oily stuff takes forever to burn off, and will cause wrinkled and poorly filled out boolits. Even Lee molds will work just fine - no smoking needed - with good alloy if clean and hot enough.

[gregg]

Here pictures. Have any of you see this Lyman mold before. Bought it in rapid CitySD and it is marked 31141 or somthing like that? You know the old 30 wcf bullet. Well as you can see that not it in the picture. I don't know if it was factory goof or what. Was going to bring it with tonight but forgot it, NOW REMEMBER I HAVE HAD THIS TROUBLE WITH MANY MOLDS! NOT JUST ONE. I'M THINKING I NEED MORE HEAT. I'M ON 12 HR NIGHTS AND THEN GOING TO MOM'S HOUSE FOR TURKEY DAY. BE AWILE BEFORE I GET THE POT HOT AGAIN. Going to bring the mold out next time so I can take pictures.
I do have a harbor fright digital temp reader. One like we had a talk on this board. Works well. Need a longer probe but still gets the job done.
MAG shot for shotgun reloading. PACO over at leverguns.com uses it. Gives you a known alloy. Its somthing you can find in your local gun store. If you get a chance to get to leverguns.com read some of Pacos stuff. Good writing I think anyway. http://leverguns.com/articles/Default.htm Have Paco's new book and a CD of his old book.

[floodgate]

gregg:

Those are from the Ideal / Lyman #311413 for the 169 gr. "Squibb" bullet (named after a Sam Squibb who developed it in the 1920s). Maybe a "goof" in the stamping, leaving off the last number. It is reported to be capable of good accuracy, but temperamental. Search "Squibb" and you should find quite a bit of discussion on this boolit.

floodgate

[gregg]

gregg:

Those are from the Ideal / Lyman #311413 for the 169 gr. "Squibb" bullet (named after a Sam Squibb who developed it in the 1920s). Maybe a "goof" in the stamping, leaving off the last number. It is reported to be capable of good accuracy, but temperamental. Search "Squibb" and you should find quite a bit of discussion on this boolit.

floodgate

COOL! Thanks floodgate. Still going to post pictures tonight. I seem to remember somthing odd about the stamping on this mold?? Maybe I though the 3 look like an letter? Will check it out today.

[ktw]

I beagled a mold the other day and easily got a long run of the best looking bullets I have ever cast from any mold. Thinking back on the few other occasions when I tried beagling a mold, it seems the reject rate went down significantly in those instances, also...

All of which leads me to believe that most of my fill-out problems tend to be related to poor venting (given a clean mold, sufficiently heated and a good, hot alloy) more than anything else.

-ktw

[Steelbanger]

That one started leaking so Wife gave me a new one. Found the fix is running a screw thru top rim to hold the pot liner up so the valve can seal the opening. So now GF gave me a new pot last Xmas. Both these ladys love casting.


gregg,

With both a wife and a girlfriend these casting problems must seem like small potatoes.

[montana_charlie]

Oh!
I see what's wrong with your mould. It's out of focus!
CM

[Calamity Jake]

gregg:

Those are from the Ideal / Lyman #311413 for the 169 gr. "Squibb" bullet (named after a Sam Squibb who developed it in the 1920s). Maybe a "goof" in the stamping, leaving off the last number. It is reported to be capable of good accuracy, but temperamental. Search "Squibb" and you should find quite a bit of discussion on this boolit.

floodgate


I have a single and double cavity mold in this design but they are the gas checked version.

The SC throws .315Ø in my alloy.

[gregg]

gregg,

With both a wife and a girlfriend these casting problems must seem like small potatoes.


Well your right about one thing
(casting problems must seem like small potatoes)
Lost My wife 6 years ago this Dec. 23 to cancer.

[gregg]

Oh!
I see what's wrong with your mould. It's out of focus!
CM
Thats a very good point???
Hay there a write up in the new fouling Shoot on a guy making a hunting bullet
out of the 311413. He bumped a flat on the point. I have not read it yet but sure will.
Floodgate I rub white out into the stamping and wonder what I thought I saw when I bought
this mold???:-0

[Steelbanger]

Gregg,

Please believe me when I say that I was only joking when I put those remarks online. I would never have posted that if I had known your circumstances. Please accept my sincere apology.

[gregg]

Gregg,

Please believe me when I say that I was only joking when I put those remarks online. Please accept my sincere apology and if you would prefer that I post it publicly I will do it immediately. As a matter of fact I will post my apology as soon as I finish this PM. I can only imagine how this post made you feel.

No no no . I understand. Hay Pard how were you to know?
Way it was posted if you did not know me that is how it would look like.
I can tell you that girl like to cast bullets. She killed deer with other guns but her
fav was her TC Hawken I built from a kit for her. She killed many deer in reg Rifle season
with that gun.
Hay glad I came back here one more time before I left.
We are good Steelbanger
Gregg

[MT Gianni]

Thats a very good point???
Hay there a write up in the new fouling Shoot on a guy making a hunting bullet
out of the 311413. He bumped a flat on the point. I have not read it yet but sure will.
Floodgate I rub white out into the stamping and wonder what I thought I saw when I bought
this mold???:-0

I made a flat point out of a 413 by filing them flat. I used a trim die from a 264 as I recall and put an even flat point of .264 on them. I could not get them to shoot in any kind of a group. The 413's that were unaltered did fine. I wonder how big of a flat he put on them and did not recall if he said in his write up. Gianni

[northwolf]

I have cast .375 "perfect" boolits (WW+about 1%+ Tin)sized and lubed with GC. After storage for a while (a long while) they look like aluminum left out for a couple of years.:(
Any suggestions??!!
They still are sharp except for the dust like covering!!

Wolf