PID Furnace Control Poll

[mmorris]

I am interested to find out how the members here feel about PID control.

Looks like I made the last three questions orphans.
Sorry, my first poll ;)

[Jailer]

Personal choice, just like most other things.

I love mine as it gives me one less thing to keep an eye on while casting. Some see it as a unnecessary complication and expense.

To each their own.

[mmorris]

I built mine for about $88 cash outlay. I had a case, heat sink and wires.

[blikseme300]

If I had to start over again with CB's the first thing I would get is a PID. Consistency is important for accuracy and having a PID helps during casting to achieve this goal. Just my opinion of course.

[leadman]

I built mine from parts purchased on e-bay. Was necessary due to new thermostat from RCBS only controls temperature to 50 degree swing. The new RCBS pro-Melts are using this same thermostat so if you buy you will probably need a PID.

[btroj]

I am interested but can see how the dollars might be better spent elsewhere. I managed for 30 years without one, I suppose I can go another 30.

[dverna]

I ordered one a few days ago from Frozone.

As a ex-Process Control Engineer, ANYTHING you can do to reduce variables will result in a better product and process repeatability.

There are two extremes with CB's. Those who try to do it as inexpensively as possible and those who strive to take the "art" to a science. There is a continuum between these extremes.

My advice is to buy the best equipment you can possibly afford. Most of this stuff lasts for decades. Short term savings can quickly become long term compromises. But I am lazy and try to produce high quality ammo at a high production rate with minimal "issues".

Don Verna

[dragon813gt]

Love my PID. Set the temp and don't worry. Temp changes are quick and easy. Just tonight I had to bump the temp up 10 degrees to get the bullets to drop freely from the mold. Attempting to do this with a thermometer is doable but takes constant monitoring. The expense of one is minimal in my opinion. But I'm also the guy that buys a tool if he needs it to perform a task. Even if I will only be performing this task once in my lifetime. Buy once, cry once is how I buy tools.

[jmort]

Got one from ButterNutZ. Very nice unit and a good guy

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218173-PID-controller-for-your-pot

[Beagle333]

Bought one from Frozone. :grin: I was tired of chasing the dial on my Lee.

[lancem]

Tired of trying to remember which scratch marks on my old Lyman meant what, don't think I have $40 in it. As a retired EE I'm wondering why I didn't do this a long time ago!

[tward]

Bought one from Frozone, took a little practice but now I love it! Tim

[uscra112]

Had a Variac on my pot when I was last using it. Less variation in temp than a thermostat with 50 degrees of hysteresis, but I still had to watch the thermometer. Might go PID after the Christmas bills get paid off. Blew a wad setting up my long-disused lathe, so no $$ for a while. Unless I sell something.

[Oreo]

How did that work with the variac uscra112? I have one sitting on a shelf I could use if it's worthwhile. I imagine setting the thermostat to the highest temp to hold it on constantly then using the variac to dial back the heating element to reach an equilibrium temperature at whatever you're trying to cast at.

[SciFiJim]

I voted for "Have one: homemade."

I could also vote for:

My PID is external (plug in)

[220]

I voted have one home made, haven't actually made it yet but all the components have been purchased and are in transit to my place, just waiting for them to arrive.

[Buzz64]

Frozone's work great!

[Walter Laich]

I enjoyed the challenge of building it from plans off of Cast Boolists

Works fine

walt

[prs]

I purchased one pre-made that plugs in between the wall outlet and the pot(s). Works great and agrees very closely with my conventional thermometer.

prs

[hanleyfan]

I have cast for years without one but it was a hassle to keep temperature right, got one of Frozone's and it works great! It made me wonder why I did not buy one sooner, best thing I ever did for my casting success.

[GLL]

Bought three from Frozone.
Need one more ! :)

Jerry

[.30/30 Guy]

If we have more than one can we vote again?

[Ramslammer]

G'Day
I love mine and reckon I'll end up with another so I can run two pots. Also I have one on my lubesizer and it's great.
Juddy

[2thepoint]

Built one from a kit a purchased from Frozone......a great tool for consistent casting. Set it and forget it!

[warf73]

I would like one but there are other projects that need money, maybe mid next year.

[Shooternz]

A friend made me one for my lube sizer works great, now need to make one for the casting pot. Robert.

[hotbrew]

I purchased mine from Frozone. Works fine and helps keep at least one variable under control. Its external and used for controlling lube cooking as well (important if you want to melt soap without burning things).

hotbrew

[Jailer]

I recently moved mine to a new project box and added quick disconnect fittings for all connections so I could use it on my smoker as well. I have one TC that stays with the lead pot and one that stays mounted in the smoker. A quick auto tune when I move it back and forth and it works perfectly for both.

[hermans]

Got the idea of a PID for my casting furnace right here on this forum. Purchased all the parts off Ebay, assembled it all, and it worked perfectly first time! The fact that your temp control is now much better can clearly be seen in the quality of my boolits.

[lwknight]

Although I have managed for years without a pid controller, I never want to go back to not having one in the future.
Life is so much better with the electronic control.
Once you have absolute control of your temperature you can concentrate your attention on the casting and alloy.

[rattletrap1970]

Yeah, built my own. Was looking at the lee pot and thought, "Why not, if I set it for full blast and tell something to watch the temp and just turn it on and off to maintain it, that would work...". It did. I think it was $18.00 for a PID, $12 for the SSR, $6 for the thermocouple. I mounted it all on a houseing I built out of 80/20 aluminum and aluminum plates. Later I built an enclosed fume cabinet that vents to outside via a drier vent. No odors at all in my casting area.

[popper]

Made mine with Auber parts. I use it on the pot, oven heat treating & PC, H-T coating. Set and forget till time to cast or WD. For the $50 I paid, well worth it.

[OuchHot!]

I started out many years ago with simple 1-2cav molds in the usual pistol sizes and did not have too much complaint with the Pro-melt thermostat (even though it has a big swing). I now have a flock of molds from 6 cavity down in brass, aluminum and Steel or meehanite covering weights from 45gr to 500+. The PID is very helpful now. Like popper, I used Auber parts and built two PID in a box so I can run a mold oven. The Auber parts are cheap and quickly shipped. It works well for my application. The PID is really necessary for my lee pot as that just gets hotter and hotter as the alloy is used.

[dondiego]

Sorry of these are dumb questions but is Auber an electronics supplier? Where can I get drawings or instructions for making a PID? In my former business working in a drinking water filter test lab, a PID was a Performance Indication Device used on filters. What does PID mean here?

[dragon813gt]

PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative. You can google it for the full information. The long and short of it, it's a controller that uses algorithms to maintain precise temperature control. They are self learning which makes setup easy.


A quick auto tune when I move it back and forth and it works perfectly for both.

No need to go through the auto tune sequences each time. The P, I and D are all specific values. After you tune them just write them down. All you do is go into the menu to change them when switching between the pot and smoker. I use mine on a smoker as well and saving fifteen minutes by not having to go through the auto tune function is nice.

[OuchHot!]

Auber Instruments is a vendor of controllers and thermocouples and such like. I have had good response from them.
http://auberins.com/
PID is some configuration of proportional integral/derivative control. The boxes look at the response from the device being controlled and the time of voltage on/off to predict future response. The PID can be made to learn so it will be more responsive with less overshoot. Of course, if you change pots or hotplates or whatever, it will need to relearn for that thermal mass. It ain't rocket science as you get a box with screw terminals and some diagrams on how to wire it. What you have to watch for is what type of thermocouple does it want and does it have an output relay or do you need to add a relay or SCR (sort of a solidstate relay) to drive the load in question. Or you buy a kit from Frozone. I bought parts from Auber and put them in a box, but I already had wire, switches a box and thermocouple plugs/jacks.

[Mal Paso]

Although I have managed for years without a pid controller, I never want to go back to not having one in the future.
Life is so much better with the electronic control.
Once you have absolute control of your temperature you can concentrate your attention on the casting and alloy.

Exactly

Another Auber customer. I silver brazed a thermocouple in the bottom of each of my pots right next to the pour valve.

Oh, I voted home built And

My PID is external (plug in).

I would recommend PID control.

[jason f]

I have a triple one I built last year for about 100 bucks.
88021

[hpeach]

The PID with the thermocouple in the pot works great, parts from ebay, and using electric stove burner from the junk yard (Freebe). Should have got one sooner. Total cost about 55 bucks.

[rbertalotto]

If I had to start over again with CB's the first thing I would get is a PID. Consistency is important for accuracy and having a PID helps during casting to achieve this goal. Just my opinion of course.
TOTALLY AGREE!

I built two as I usually run two pots at the same time with different alloys for different molds. Lets me go fast as hell but allows the molds to cool down a bit by alternating.

[georgerkahn]

88171I had a Variac in line to my Lyman 81 furnace, and even with a voltmeter in circuit I did not find temperature control improved at all over Lyman's thermostat. My next step was to move this box to my Lyman 45 heater power, where it functions superbly: I flip the switch to "110V" for twenty minutes or so, and then flip it to variac-controlled voltage to maintain level of heat for best boolit lubing. I bought a PID controlled from ButterNutZ, and so far my only regret is not having made this purchase sooner! I have a porcelain lamp socket from local Ace Hardware store with a 15watt light bulb in it in parallel with my Lyman furnace, and it is neat to watch the lamp turn on/off -- as does the heating element in my furnace. The photo shows my Variac box now regulating the temp of my Lyman 450's heater... Re the PID -- it has my endorsement! Best! geo

[Smoke4320]

Got a frozone unit .. best move I have made in casting.. now get Very consistent bullet weights .. no more chasing my tail trying to figure out was is wrong
Fire up the pot and hot plate wait 30 minutes and start casting great bullets

[jmort]

"I bought a PID controlled from ButterNutZ, and so far my only regret is not having made this purchase sooner!"

Me too, awesome product and great guy. He deserves to get business.

[41mag]

I had only poured my own for about a month when I noted the instructions being posted up. Already in that short time span I had found that controlling the temp of the alloy was a needed thing if I wanted my boolits to be anywhere close to the same weight from first cast to last cast.

Before I had swings of weights going upwards of ten grains or so, after I kept them within about 5-8grs max. For paper punching or what not that isn't a factor, but for my hunting loads which is primarily what I use my cast for, I want things as close as possible. Consistency is a key factor from trimmed brass, to powder weight, to crimp, to bullet weight.

I also like being able to hit the sweet spot on a mold with the first cast instead of having to run the temp up or down first. More or less just set it and forget till done.

[deltaenterprizes]

I am interested but can see how the dollars might be better spent elsewhere. I managed for 30 years without one, I suppose I can go another 30.

Same here, one more thing to break.

[cbrick]

I am interested but can see how the dollars might be better spent elsewhere. I managed for 30 years without one, I suppose I can go another 30.

Pity! Had you spent a little time using one you would never say that again.

88486

One of the biggest ahah moments I've ever had casting was the first time I switched this on and I never looked back. In the picture the red 700 is the set temp, the green 272 is as it's warming up. The up & down arrows are how you adjust the set temp. With this Magma unit the probe is welded on the outside of the pot on the center bottom, no probe in the melt.

Something else to go wrong? Well, maybe. I have a refrigerator in my kitchen though I don't know why. I mean geez that thing could have something go wrong so how could it ever be worth it?

Rick

[kbstenberg]

1+ CBRick

[bwgdog]

I have same unit as Rick-It is a great piece of equipment.

[Ghost101]

Thanks to jmortimer for the headsup link to ButterNuz, I too have a PID unit. I had asked the group awhile back as to why I was having such a wide swing with my boolit weights. I have been looking at ready made an make it myself PID's. Looked in the mirror an figured out pretty quick that I needed to purchase a unit. At that point I looked at this thread, an jmortimer had posted a link to another thread, which caused me to contact ButterNuz for my new PID.
I tell you what, You guys spend my money almost as fast as my ex. But at least I walk away with a smile and a new toy this time. LoL
Thank You !

Ghost101

[mrbill2]

? With the temp set at 700 how low does the temp get before the unit turns on. After that how high does the temp get before the unit turns off ?

[felix]

The major function of the learning logic algorithm is to determine those applied numbers. Can vary appreciably with what product (lead, water, etc.) is being monitored. ... felix

[cbrick]

With the unit in my picture which is Magma's first generation PID it has about 12-16 degrees over temp once it switches off the power. Also about 17-18 degrees drop once the power is switched back on. Again, first generation.

The unit now available from Magma is far superior by allowing only about plus/minus 2-3 degrees.

I have no idea how Frozone's or any of the others work, I've never used any of them & need to leave that for them to answer.

Rick

[jmort]

The PID I got from ButterNutZ can be set for 1 degree or 10 degrees and 100 degrees. Watch the video in this link, very informative.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218173-PID-controller-for-your-pot

[dragon813gt]

Any PID is going to depend on how full the pot is when you tune it and how full the pot currently is. It's basing the algorithms on the load when you train it. As the pot drains the load changes. Mine does a great job until about 1/5 full. Then it will overshoot by about 10 degrees when you throw the sprues in and the pot has to come back up. And because the load is less the temp doesn't come down as quickly. The solution is to keep the pot above this level.

[snuffy]

I built mine from the instructions on this forum/thread;

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?49410-Pid-temp-control-finished-!!!&highlight=pid

Mine, once up to temp, will hold +- 2 degrees from set temp. If I were to let it tune or self program, it would do +-1 degrees.

88595

88596

Mine has plug-ins for the pot and TC so it's portable. Right now I have 2 pots and 2 450 Lyman lubrisizers that I can control with the same pid;

88597

88598

[Frozone]

.......I have no idea how Frozone's or any of the others work, .......

Placement of the thermocouple can make a Huge difference in the accuracy of the controller.

Place the sensor On the pot close to the heating coils and it will be Way off compared to suspended in the melt away from the edges.
The coils heat the pot walls unevenly, that transfers heat into the melt unevenly. The very center of the melt is the Least sensitive to the change, it takes longest to see the heat pulse.
But it will also raise the most After the heat turns off. Convection currents can effect the control also.

With a good probe placement and at 'idle' about 1º of variation is possible, it improves with a sawdust cover on top (convection).
Any better is a waste as the controller is very close to it's 'noise' limit.
There isn't a good reason to change the hysteresis from factory settings. The only reason is if you have a odd heating setup that must have an idle time between heat pulses.
A mechanical relay is an example, you don't want the relay switching 5 times a second, so you would slow the pulses down to maybe a second or two. This, of course, effects the variation in temp control.

Once you start casting expect the variance to increase. However, the steadier your casting technique is the more accurate the control will be.
Even if you add sprues back in, control can be held to less than a few degrees. But your rhythm must not change and the sprues must be the same size for the best accuracy.

[felix]

That's why the more lead in the pot, the better is the control. The 60 or more pound commercial pots would be ideal. But, talk about overkill for all but a few of us. ... felix

[OuchHot!]

As far as reliability goes, I would expect the PID to better the onboard thermostats and whatever lee calls their "control". The only thing under stress from heat is the thermocouple with the PID and the electronics is off to the side. That being said, I cannot recall any trouble with the thermostat on my RCBS pot other than its wide swing.

[Mal Paso]

My Auber PID holds +/- 2 degrees F from full to 3/4".

The thermocouple junctions are 1/2 inch above the bottom of Lee 4-20s next to the pour valves.

[Buzz64]

I have one of Frozone's. With probe suspended parallel to the linkage in the Lee IV-20 it holds +/- 5 degrees from full to about 1/4 full. When I see the dummy light on the unit turn blue, I know I've dropped the alloy level to below the probe and it's time for a break!