RCBS 44mag Keith Mold

[timtonya]

I just started to cast this mold and am impressed. It shoots very well in my ruger super redhawk. It has NO leading what so ever. It sizes between 430 and 431. Also extremely accurate with 7gr of autocomp.

[bhn22]

Elmer got his molds right. Even 75 years later, they're never a bad choice.

[GLL]

Are you shooting the 44-250-KT [#82044] or the 44-250-K [#82080] ?
Both are great bullets !

http://www.fototime.com/2CB4022C53F7A88/orig.jpg

Jerry

[timtonya]

I have the K mold. Casts between 250-260 gr

[W.R.Buchanan]

There is a great article by Brian Pearce in the current Handloader Magazine. it discusses the Keith style boolit and it's history in detail and covers all of the variations of the design.

Lyman 429421 was actually the first one. H&G 503 is another variation. All are virtually identical except for minute differences, and there are even variations of the individual manufacturers moulds.

They are arguably the best .44 caliber boolits ever designed.

I personally have a Mihec brass mould which will do three different types of HP's as well as solids. It is an H&G #503 clone and is easily the best mould I have ever owned.

Randy

[MtGun44]

I have found the 44-250K to be a superb interpretation of the Keith design. The
crimping groove is slightly weird but works great.

Try 10 gr of Unique or 9 of Power Pistol.

Bill

[GLL]

The crimping groove is slightly weird but works great.

Bill

Bill:

I agree !
If that "weird" crimp groove were a bit narrower the RCBS would be a perfect clone of the original Keith design !

http://www.fototime.com/AABD4A6B4184D05/standard.jpg

Jerry

[Three44s]

The 250K is my most cheerished mold ....... bar none!!!

........ and my top load: 11.8 gr. of HS-6 lit by a Federal 155 primer


VIVA the .44 mag and the above combo!!!


Three 44s

[Lefty SRH]

I had a RCBS 250-K but sold it when I got my MiHec 503 clone. For some reason the 503 was a little more accurate or consistAnt in my 44s. Although the RCBS was not any slouch by any means!

[Green Frog]

+1 to WRB... I seldom buy Handloader off the news stand because it's been "dumbed down" and become so repetitive since the old subscription-only days. When there is one (or rarely more than one) article I think really worthwhile I buy it, and BP did an unusually good job on this one. He thoroughly researched the history of the design and even had a picture of Ideal 429421 mould #2 cut to Elmer's exact specs. I think the whole article was probably made to brag about and amortize the cost of acquiring that mould, but that's OK, I've sold an article or two to a smaller mag for the exact same reason! ;-) I especially liked the sharp pictures and carefully measured dimensions included in the article, it was worth the cost of the magazine to me. JMHO, of course! :D

Froggie

PS One thing BP brought out was the fact that some later iterations of the Ideal/Lyman mould had round bottoms when the grease groove was cast. Mould lore tells us that old Elmer was quite vocal in his displeasure when the folks in CT made that change. Has anyone compared performance difference between the original and the later ones? Could you see any difference on the target?

[MtGun44]

I find both shoot well. I prefer (like Elmer) to have the luxury of "excess lube" but with
modern lubes, the smaller capacity rounded groove seems to work well.

My MP 503 is one of my most favored molds, but the RCBS 44-250-K is a beautifully made
mold and a very good design.

Bill

[Wally]

I have the RCBS 250K....no complaints. Also have a Lee .44 Cal 255 SWC... I tried a comparison shooting both with the same load in my M29 and a Ruger SBK... I found the Lee was better for me and it got 5% more velocity, with the same powder charge. I shot out to 75 yards with both.

[9w1911]

this was the first rcbs mold I ever purchased from an old timer at a gun show, I am considering selling it

[W.R.Buchanan]

I personally think that Brian Pearce's work on the .44 Special, Magnum, .45 LC and .45-70 have been the definitive contemporary works on these subjects. His experience, expertise and attention to detail is beyond reproach.

I have all of these articles and of all of my Reloading Literature I consider his articles on these subject to be my most trusted references.

Earlier this year at the SHOT Show I tried to get him to do a book of compiled articles from his works for Wolfe Publishing similar to what Venturino has done with his Leverguns, and Buffalo Guns books.

I will try again this next show in a month or so.

A single book with all of his articles on these subjects would be a very valuable thing to own. I don't know how many times here I have had to dig thru my Handloader Magazines to find out which Issue a particular article was in.

The current article is just one more that needs to be included.

Randy

[square butte]

I'm with you on the book thing. Man - would I like to have that on my shelf. Acid free paper.

[Lefty SRH]

I enjoy and trust Pearces article aswell. I e used several of his Ruger loads with great success.

[rattletrap1970]

I have a 44-455-KT. It shoots great from my Ruger Super Redhawk. Rings silhouettes at 200 yards all day.

[44man]

I feel a little different about the Keith. I loved the original 429421 I had in 1956 and now have the RCBS KT. Shot a lot of Keith's, owning as many as 9 .44's over time. However all Keith's were before I learned the revolver and how to make them shoot like a rifle.
I have done a lot of work with the RCBS and found very hard, 28 to 30 BHN was needed or the cylinder/barrel had to have perfect alignment which is rare.
Reason is the nose has no steerage at the cone and cylinder pull relies on the shoulder.
Next I found two GG's are better then one big one and can halve groups. Flat or round bottoms mean nothing. Need the same amount of lube total or at least close.
I have been sent a lot of Keith style boolits for other calibers and not a one has shot right so I melt the rest down. Seems when caliber, power and boolit weight goes up, they get worse.
Many love the Keith and the history so I would not deter anyone. It just has the looks and myths.
Long ago I had a S&W 27, 8-3/8" ribbed barrel and the original pistol scope. I shot the Thompson 358156 with 2400 and could hit 1" targets at 100 yards from prone. But in around 60 years I have never been able to duplicate it with any other gun.
So you can toss around all kinds of theories about GG bottoms and changes over the years but in the end none mean a thing, it is only if your gun can shoot them. Out of kindness I have agreed about changes but know better. I hate to bash a Keith boolit lover, loaded rounds just LOOK right.
Brian did good work but it will not help the boolit itself. It is too tricky and if I want to shoot 100 yards to 500 meters I will not use them.
Keith made the semi wad cutter for two reasons, first was a round hole in paper because target shooting was the rage and second was a flat meplat instead of a round nose for hunting. He was right but a two purpose boolit still does not work.

[dondiego]

"Next I found two GG's are better then one big one and can halve groups."

I can never remember what GG stands for. It is not found in the Abbreviations below.

[Mal Paso]

Grease Groove

[Tatume]

Today I drove to the magazine stands around the area looking for "Handloader" and could not find a copy. That's too bad, as I would like to read the Brian Pearce article on Keith bullets. The last time he wrote a really good article (which I heard about here) I subscribed to the magazine just to get that issue. I was disappointed in the following five issues and let the subscription lapse. I don't think I'm willing to do that again. Oh well.

Take care, Tom

[Changeling]

BP gets his information the same as those who want to know something do, he investigates what the public is saying regarding the subject.

On the other hand if you want "First Hand" factual information you should listen to some of the Experts here on the Boolets forum. This is where the professional writers gather a lot of there information, if not most. Just be sure you are listing to someone who understands revolvers/hunting/loads that work in your caliber of interest.
You will find that there's a good number of "Parots here" that tend to Fluff there feathers here regardless of what the true experts tell one. They will explain how modern technology has changed, and you should listen to them regarding cast lead bullets, YEA Right!!

The true experts are not always right/wrong, but they will lead you down the path that is right! Don't just jump on something you read here, spend some time investigating everyone, talk to these guys, you just might learn what you are trying to do RIGHT!
That's how BP does it if you regard his opinions.

[376Steyr]

Sometime in the not too distant past, RCBS changed their spec on the 44 K from .429" to .430" I have an earlier one, and the darn thing insisted on casting at .429, just like it said on the box. I beagled mine up to .431, and reserve it for use in a .44 Special that has tighter throats.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Brian does talk to others and he does his homework, but he also fires a lot of ammo, and his sons do a lot of the shooting as well.

He told me at the Show earlier this year that his sons are shooting from 500 to 1000 rounds for virtually every article he writes.

Some of the guns are big ones too. The article on the .50 Alaskan rifle he has, was accompanied by a bunch of loads and various boolits, the two boys shot all of them and I wouldn't pull the trigger on one of them. Oh to be young again.

My very first issue of "Handloader Mag" was Aug of 2005 and it had the big article on loading the .45-70 for Marlin rifles. There were tables with literally hundreds of loads in all different pressure levels for this cartridge in the Marlin Rifles. He shot everyone to obtain the groups and pressure ratings.

Same is true of the .44 Magnum article in the same magazine and the .44 Special article in another issue. Similar articles on 38/.357 .41 mag and .45 LC have been written and published as well as other articles about certain guns using loads discussed in previous articles.

He is one of the most meticulous researchers I have seen in the gun world, and that compares him to Venturino and Scovill and other prominent writers who actually know what they are talking about. All of them that actually do know shoot more than most of us will ever.


However one other thing I know for sure,,, This site has many who rival the gun writers as far as loading and shooting goes, and especially when you start down the Cast Boolit road. In fact when I see an article on Handloader or Rifle about shooting Cast boolits I always compare what they are saying to what I have learned here.

Lots of times they come up short on things that are considered common knowledge here. Too bad cuz they could get it right if they just asked a question from,,, "them that knows!"

Randy

[tygar]

I just started to cast this mold and am impressed. It shoots very well in my ruger super redhawk. It has NO leading what so ever. It sizes between 430 and 431. Also extremely accurate with 7gr of autocomp.

I have had this mold for over 40 yrs & it casts as perfect today as it did when I got it. The bullets drop at 243 with WW at 1050fps in my M29 6" with a 6 o'c hold at 25 hits 10 ring, is dead on at 50 & with a 12 o'c hold at 100 is 10 ring on a 25yd center fire target.

Has to be the most perfect bullet ever made.

[ironhead7544]

For the 44 Special, the 250 gr Keith is about perfect. Keiths idea was to have an all round load that could be carried in a belt gun that would handle most anything you might need to do with handgun. Better loads for individual purposes could be found but his loads worked, and still work today.

[Leadmelter]

This week, I sent a two cavity Lyman/Elmer mold to Eric for his hollow point conversion.
Can't wait to see what he makes. All my Lyman/Elmer designs are my go to bullets for good shooting in 357, 44, and 45 calibers.
Leadmelter
MI